Mmmmm....animals taste good!

[JohnnyCougar]

It is in our nature to eat animals. That is the way our teeth evolved. That is the way humans evolved as beings. That is our place in nature, and our duty as part of the earth. That is why meat tastes so good...our taste buds know it is good for you.

Is it unethical for a lion to chase down a gazelle and devour it and rip its flesh and lick up the blood? Obviously not. It is just part of the beauty of the cycles of nature. Cycles we humans are a part of.

I just don't get why some people think it is more natural to be vegan or vegetarian. I have always felt like it was in my nature to eat meat. I don't get why some try and defy it. Obviously, there are many different opinions on this matter, and I respect them all (mostly). I'd like to hear vegan and non-vegan thoughts on this. I can enjoy some vegetarian dishes, but they are only good if the cook really knows what they are doing (like my Hindu roommate). But most dishes are horribly bland to me without meat.

[abbeyco]

1. Mmmmm...popcorn goes well

with your discourse.

:popcorn:

[JohnnyCougar]

3. As long as you butter it with animal fat!

;)

[Kurovski]

8. Do you know that Roger Ebert used to put bacon grease on popcorn?

This was revealed to me by a woman who attended a gathering at his house in the Old Town section of Chicago in the early 70's.

I would take this with only the merest wisp of popcorn salt.

[KitchenWitch]

9. And it was Gene Siskell that died a premature death

Ironic, isn't it?

edited to change cause of death.

[Kurovski]

12. Ebert has cleaned up his act in recent decades.

I think getting married made him more health conscious.

[KitchenWitch]

13. True

He has dropped nearly a ton of excess weight!

[Kurovski]

15. At least.

:-) He's written some very good articles on progressive issues.

I remember his article on "Memes" It was the first place I ever read of them.

He's a gentle, decent person from all I've heard and in my own experiences waiting on him in the past.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

33. Part of the reason he lost so much weight was cancer and its treatment...

[Kurovski]

121. Yes, but I recall that he also lost weight prior to that.

He has also kept the weight off.

He had Thyroid cancer.

[kliljedahl]

40. That's what I pop mine with

& you're right about the salt.



Keith’s Barbeque Central

[lvx35]

2. humans are omnivores, and insects are a natural part of the diet.

Humans can eat all kinds of things, and I've heard that both carion and insects formed a large part of our natural diet. Do we eat insects? No.
I do eat meat, but your post is punchy so I thought I would disagree with you. First point, I don't think we should look at Lions, or any animals, as an example of moral behavior. secondly, I think those who choose not to eat meat on moral grounds show an advanced sense of care for other beings. A buddhist friend exemplified this to me, and he was caring to me, and all others around him, and it was congruent with his vegetarian ways. He didn't believe in harm.
And third, meat eating is destroying the environment. A large section of greenhouse gases come from cow flatulence, literally. Human's have gone way beyond the behavior of any other species on earth, and populated way more densely. If we are going to continue to eat meat, it is going to have be grown in "test tubes" because 10 billion people can no longer afford the inefficiency of growing cows with brains and eyes and bones attached to their meat. Of course I think this is more moral. If you believe in evolution, you must accept to some degree the unity of all thinking life on earth, and wonder why an organism that experiences has to be grown for you to have a cheeseburger.
And lastly, I have largely liked the vegetarians I have meet!

so there's some fighting points for ya!! :)

[KitchenWitch]

4. North America and Europe are the only two regions that as a rule

do not eat insects. Other regions of the world consider insects to be a staple in their diets.

[Kurovski]

10. Isn't there actually an allowable

amount of insect parts in our food supply? I think we eat more bugs than we imagine.

But of course I know you mean like frying up a pan of grubs and what not.

What category do snails fall under?

[KitchenWitch]

14. Not entirely sure what snails would be classified as

We likely do eat more bugs than we are aware of.

Wouldn't shrimp be considered bugs as well?

[Kurovski]

17. I dunno, but now that you mention it, crabs are in the spider family.

Arachnids, which are not insects because of the leg number...or something. Or cruataceans? i dunno. The horseshoe crab is definitely included in the spider family. But they have a bad flavor, I hear. maybe someone who's not an idiot who comes along can explain it all .

I think shrimp are a family in and of themselves.

I used to know food families when I was dealing with allergy diets, but have retained little of the info.

[Crunchy Frog]

30. Shrimps and crabs are both crustaceans,

and along with spiders and insects, they are all arthropods. Snails are molluscs, like octopi. I don't know food families, but I'm relatively good with taxonomy.

[Kurovski]

32. Thank you...

But I won't be ready for the test until monday! :-)

[NuttyFluffers]

186. :) i first thought of the other "crabs" when you said that.

regular crabs, lobsters, shrimps, etc are crustaceans.

spiders, scorpions, mites (where the other crab belongs), and horseshoe crabs, are all arachnids.

snails, octopi, squid, slugs, etc. mollusks.

and everyone on average in the world eats around 5 spiders a year. when you sleep you often leave your mouth open at some time -- very small spiders explore everywhere and sometimes that's also your open mouth. then you roll over and swallow... and eat the poor spider. probably a few insects die this way as well. oh, and then there's single celled animals called protozoans, from the protista family. so there's really no way to live a life without actually consuming animals, single or multi celled. but if thinking and trying otherwise makes some people happy.... :shrug: who am i to care?

[Kali]

79. moluscs - same as oysters, clams, mussels, abalone etc

also delish with BUTTER (or maybe bacon grease?)

[TreasonousBastard]

16. Unless you include...

lobster, crabs, shrimp, crayfish...

as really bigass insects.

Frankly, I don't see much difference between eating a beetle or a lobster, except for the amount of meat. As long as lobsters are still around, though...

Hunter-gatherers have found insects to be a reliable source of complete protein when the hunting isn't so good. The herdsmen and farmers give 'em up when they find they can control their grains and meat.

Not everyone gives them up, though. I knew a superb Chinese chef with a marvelous restaurant who regularly whipped up some specialities for the family. One day, I stopped in just as he was opening and found him with a razor blade cutting the legs and heads off of a huge plate of some kind of millipede. Quite a delicacy, he told me, after being properly prepared and cooked up. Too bad I never got a chance to try them-- they were for some special celebration when he was closed.

[zalinda]

28. There is supposed to be a restaurant in Canada

Toronto, I think, that is a restaurant that cooks up insects. I've seen it "advertised" on a number of cable channel shows.

zalinda

[Uncle Joe]

59. When I was in the Marines,I had dry roasted crickets in Pusan, Korea

that were served with a lot of beer. I can't remember what they tasted like.

[Bake]

85. Chocolate covered ants! Mmmmmmmm!

And maybe deep-fried grasshoppers. Hell, crawfish aren't much different than insects anyway (we call 'em mudbugs), and we boil them up all time down here in the Dirty Dirty. Shoot, I bet grasshoppers would be good if you rolled 'em in corn meal and deep fried the little bastids!

Bake

[JohnnyCougar]

5. So in other words...

Vegetarianism is a way of defying our nature because our nature unabated brings harm to this world. I can certainly see the sense in that...if this is how you mean it.

[lvx35]

7. Essentially, yes

to be honest though, I would say that everything we do is our nature...vegetarianism, atom bombs, reality TV shows, etc. But part of our nature is to make decisions, and to try to choose things that will build the best future. So we have to sacrifice some things for others, and this is not inheritly unnatural to me!

[Jamastiene]

22. I'm so tired of hearing people say humans are carnivores.

You stated it right, finally. Thank you. Humans are omnivores. We eat meat AND plant life.

[Kali]

80. fungiphores too (is that right?)

we eat from all areas of the food web! (REAL omnivores)

[kalibex]

60. Yes, people eat do insects

See: http://www.toyrential-reign.com/canned.html

for some examples of commerically-available edible insect products.

-B

[renate]

94. nicely said

:applause: :applause: :applause:
A friendly, respectful, and, especially, objective (since you're a nonvegetarian promoting vegetarianism) discussion... wouldn't life be grand if it was always this way?!

[obxhead]

6. And the carrots cried out in fear....

Damn You!!!
For today was their Holocaust
Today was harvest day

Anyone know that one.... It has two sources that I know of.

[skids]

161. Here's where I know it from:

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/t/tool/139418.html

[rainy]

11. Lay a bunny and an apple in front of a child and see which one

she wants to rip her teeth into. We were not meant to eat meat. Our stomachs do not have enough enzymes to break down that much protein at one time. Therefore, meat stays in our stomachs for days and putrefies. Our mouth have pouches, cheeks because we chew our food, carnivores swallow their meat whole.
We do not have dog teeth. Get real. If we must eat meat why not eat it raw like the rest of the meat eating animals? Cooked meat has little nutrition as the live cells are killed when cooked. ALL NUTRITION comes from plants period. If you eat an animal that animal got its health from plants. Why not skip the animal and just eat the plants?
Also, the way we treat the animals we eat is inhumane.

[LiberalPersona]

18. bunny and apple?

The child is going to choose the one that they were raised with. It depends on what your parents fed you in your youth. The human diet does not tend naturally toward meat or fruits because humans are omnivores. If we weren't meant to eat meat our body wouldn't digest it at all.

I literally can't eat most vegetables because they make me physically ill. I'd like to see people try and explain that away as an issue of morals.

[Kurovski]

20. It could be because of the pesticides!

i learned that some allergy sufferers who thought they were allergic to some fruits and vegetables turned out to be made ill by the pesticides after eating organic versions.

I think a lot of food tolerance can also evolve from what your own ancestors ate.

At least it certainly would seem to make sense.

[depakid]

24. Bullshit

If you feed a horse or a cow protien- they'll digest it just fine. But is that what they evolved to eat?

Learn some science, before you try to justify the reason why you don't like vegetables.

[rainy]

48. Who are you kidding? Humans not meant to eat FRUIT?

I've read many nutrition books and NOT ONE has ever said that we shouldn't eat fruit. There are many who think we were meant only to eat fruit. Tomatoes are fruits. Avocados are fruits. Cooked meat is worthless as healthy food. ALL nutrition comes from the PLANTS.

The child would NEVER reach for the rabbit and try to eat it.

[LiberalPersona]

163. That's not what I said

I didn't say humans aren't meant to eat fruit, I said that a person's preference for food depends on what food they are raised with. If you don't feed your children vegetables and fruit they aren't going to develop a taste for them.

[RC]

38. Bone up on your anthropology.

Human being are all over the world because we evolved to be able to eat just about anything, plant or animal. I am assuming that is a live bunny? How sweet tasting is that bunny. Kids like sweets and that apple won't try to get away when bitten.
While we don't have dog teeth, we do have caine teeth.

Cooked meat kills the cells so it has little nutrition? You eat all your plants raw I assume?

NEWSFLASH: There are no 100% vegetarian societies on this planet. None. But there are or were till recently some 100% meat eaters.

Also human cannot survive on 100% vegetable diet. You will be irreversibly dead by 50. We cannot get all the vitamins we need, as witness to that cabinet full of pills you take every day.

[rainy]

53. I take no pills at all and I am a rawfoodist 80%.

I never get sick, all of my ills have been healed and thousands of years ago you better bet there were human societies that ate no meat and there are still some today. I will post them in a later post as I'll have to go back to my sources.

B12 is the only vitamin you may have to worry about as we wash everything so much now that the b12 that naturally grows on the outside of plants, fruits and veggies is washed away. It also is in natural streams and fresh water spots but of course we do not drink from streams anymore. Anything you can get from animals you can get from plants in the natural world including all of the amino acids.

[rainy]

56. here is a good source:

How humans are not physically created to eat meat



Although some historians and anthropologists say that man is historically omnivorous, our anatomical equipment ­ teeth, jaws, and digestive system ­ favors a fleshless diet. The American Dietetic Association notes that "most of mankind for most of human history has lived on vegetarian or near-vegetarian diets."



And much of the world still lives that way. Even on most industrialized countries, the love affair with meat is less than a hundred years old. It started with the refrigerator car and the twentieth-century consumer society. But even with the twentieth century, man's body hasn't adapted to eating meat. The prominent Swedish scientist Karl von Linne states, "Man's structure, external and internal, compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food." The chart below compares the anatomy of man with that of carnivorous and herbivorous animals.



When you look at the comparison between herbivores and humans, we compare much more closely to herbivores than meat eating animals. Humans are clearly not designed to digest and ingest meat.



Meat-eaters: have claws

Herbivores: no claws

Humans: no claws



Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue

Herbivores: perspire through skin pores

Humans: perspire through skin pores



Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding

Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding



Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly

Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.



Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat

Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater



Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.

Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits

Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits



Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Based on a chart by A.D. Andrews, Fit Food for Men, (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970)





Clearly if humans were meant to eat meat we wouldn't have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores.



Many people ask me, "If we weren't supposed to eat meat than why do we?". It is because we are conditioned to eat meat. Also, the ADA (American Dietetic Association) tells us that "most of mankind for most of human history has lived on a vegetarian or Lacto-ovo vegetarian diet.



A popular statement that meat eaters say is; "In the wild, animals kill other animals for food. It's nature." First of all, we are not in the wild. Secondly, we can easily live without eating meat and killing, not to mention we'd be healthier. And finally, as I have already shown, we weren't meant to eat meat. Meat and seafood putrefies within 4 hours after consumption and the remnants cling to the walls of the stomach and intestines for 3-4 days or longer than if a person is constipated. Furthermore, the reaction of saliva in humans is more alkaline, whereas in the case of flesh-eating or preying animals, it is clearly acidic. The alkaline saliva does not act properly on meat.



The final point I would like to make on how we as humans were not meant to eat meat is this. All omnivorous and carnivorous animals eat their meat raw. When a lion kills an herbivore for food, it tears right into the stomach area to eat the organs that are filled with blood (nutrients). While eating the stomach, liver, intestine, etc., the lion laps the blood in the process of eating the dead animals flesh. Even bears that are omnivores eat salmon raw. However, eating raw or bloody meat disgust us as humans. Therefore, we must cook it and season it to buffer the taste of flesh.



If a deer is burned in a forest fire, a carnivorous animal will NOT eat its flesh. Even circus lions have to be feed raw meat so that they will not starve to death. If humans were truly meant to eat meat, then we would eat all of our meat raw and bloody. The thought of eating such meat makes one’s stomach turn. This is my point on how we as humans are conditioned to believe that animal flesh is good for us and that we were meant to consume it for survival and health purposes. If we are true carnivores or omnivores, cooking our meat and seasoning it with salt, ketchup, or tabasco sauce would disguise and we as humans would refuse to eat our meat in this form.



Overall advantages of vegetarianism
You can indeed reap a lot of benefits by being a vegetarian and people have become more aware of the health benefits of being a vegetarian. Animal rights issues is only one of the reasons why people decide to go on a vegetarian diet. People are beginning to care more about the environment. However, the main reason why people go on vegetarian diet is because of health benefits.



Meat is not good for you as it clogs your thinking. This is especially true if you eat red meat; white meat has less fat compared to red meat. Excessive intake of fats into your body can result in having a high level of cholesterol. If you think that not eating meat is going to make you look scrawny or unhealthy please think again. Just imagine that cows, goats, gorillas, elephants, rhinoceroses and so on are all vegetarians (herbivores) but look at how tough these animals are, not to mention their life span which is longer compared to the carnivores (meat eating animals).



If you look at the chicken and vulture (carnivores), these animals eat just about everything and notice how unhealthy these animals look. The Chinese believe that the chi or life force in your body is less when you consume meat and so do the Indians with their ancient yogic principles, their life force was called prana.



The great Tai Chi masters of China were adept at preserving their chi, even if some of the masters were not vegetarians, they still had a balanced diet. It has now been scientifically proven that a balanced vegetarian diet is better compared to a diet that is taken with meat.



There are a lot of misconceptions about being a vegetarian; protein is one of the main topics of debate as a lot of people think that you can only get protein from meat. Vegetarians get a lot of protein, if they eat a variety of fruits, vegetables, grains and legumes. What vegetarians don't get is the excess protein of traditional American diet, excess that leads to kidney overload and mineral deficiency diseases.



A lot of people also think that a vegetarian diet is not a balanced diet. Vegetarian diets have a proportion of three macronutrients, which are complex carbohydrates, protein, and fat. Vegetarian food sources (plants) tend to be higher sources of most micronutrients. Another myth that needs to be clarified is the so-called lack of calcium among vegetarians. Many vegetables, especially green, leafy ones, have a good supply of calcium. The truth is that vegetarians suffer less from osteoporosis (a deficiency of calcium that leads to weak bones).



It is not my intention to force people to become vegetarians. However, vegetarianism is my answer to complete health and wholeness. The three issues to consider in regard to vegetarianism are: spiritual, mental, and physical (nutritional).



The spiritually aspiring person attempts to work on his/her self. The purpose of spiritual growth is to move away from the animal nature into the more human nature that God intended for us to have. Meat eating inhibits this. Again, the same science that sometimes attempts to ignore the existence of a force higher than man also has proved, in the laboratory, that aggression levels are much higher in meat eaters than non-meat eaters! The animal instincts become more powerful every time you eat meat. Another spiritual aspect of being a meat eater is when one must question the necessity and the method as well as the karma of killing animals. However, everyone has their own mores which they must determine for themselves. It is not the purpose of my dissertation to force a specific moral behavior on anyone. Most spiritual people believe auras. Kirilian photography shows us that a force field remains around dead or amputated tissue. You adopt that animal aura when you eat a dead animal. Fruits and vegetables have a higher vibrational aura than animal products. Is it not personal evolution that the spiritual candidate is interested in? If so, meat eating is urgently prohibited.



“You are what you eat”, is a slogan that I love to use to show the mental aspect of vegetarianism. When animals are slaughtered, fear and aggression enzymes are shot into their cells from their glands and other organs, just as in humans, and are part of the dead carcass that goes on to the food store. They remain in the meat until the consumer ingests those same enzymes, which are molecularly very similar to those found in humans. Fruits and vegetables do not have emotions; therefore, when they are picked they do not release any emotions cells prior to digestion. The enzymes within fruits and vegetables supply the body with sufficient nutrients that will always uphold a healthy state of mind.



Fruits and vegetables are high in nutrients; the very thing the body needs to live a long disease and pain free life. The same cannot be said for meat. Nutritionally, the alkaline-based digestive system of humans will not properly break down substantial acid substances, the greatest of which is meat.



Colon cancer is rampant! This is caused by the slow evacuation and the putrefaction in the colon of the remains of meat. Lifelong vegetarians never suffer from such an illness. Many meat eaters believe that meat is the sole source of protein. However, the quality of this protein is so poor that little of it can ever be utilized by humans because it is incomplete and lacks the correct combination of amino acids, the building blocks of protein. Studies show that the average American gets five times the amount of protein needed. It is a common medical fact that excess protein is dangerous, the prime danger being that uric acid (the waste product produced in the process of digesting protein) attacks the kidneys, breaking down the kidney cells called nephrons. This condition is called nephritis; the prime cause of it is overburdening the kidneys. More usable protein is found in one tablespoon of tofu or soybeans than the average serving of meat!



Have you ever seen what happens to a piece of meat that stays in the sun for three days? Meat can stay in the warmth of the intestine for at least four days until it is digested. It does nothing but wait for passage. Often, it usually stays there for

much longer, traces remaining for up to several months. Colonic therapists always see meat passing through in people who have been vegetarians for several years, thus indicating that meat remains undigested there for a long time. Occasionally this has been documented in twenty-year vegetarians!



Some vegetarians claim they are more satisfied after they eat. The reason for this is that there are fewer ketones (protein-digestive substances) formed when vegetable protein is digested. For many, ketones cause a trace amount of nausea which one normally interprets as a decreased desire for food due to this uncomfortable and slight degree of queasiness. Although the body calls for more food, the taste buds tolerate less. This is the danger of the popular high-protein diet substances on the market. This abnormally high level of ketones is called ketosis and refers to the state of starvation that the body incurs due to the inability of the appetite to call for nutrition. Most Americans who eat the wrong

type of carbohydrates never recognize the high amount of complex carbohydrates required to overthrow this condition. Also, when the blood ketone level is too high, it results in abnormally acidic blood, called acidosis.



Tigers or lions who eat meat and grow strong on it have acid-based digestive systems. Our Hydrochloric Acid isn’t strong enough to fully digest meat. Also, their intestines are in a straight run of about five feet long, not twisted and turned, layer over layer, compacted into a small area like the human intestine, which is twenty feet long.



Meats are frozen for a long period of times. Some meat (especially poultry) is frozen up to two years. Cold temperatures do not kill all species of bacteria. Worse than this, as it is shipped and stored, most frozen meat is thawed and refrozen many times. This is almost unavoidable.



Meat eaters suffer more frequently from various types of food poisoning than vegetarian eaters, so much so that statistics show that every American has had food poisoning on at least one occasion. When you've felt ill, out-of-sorts, had

diarrhea, or were just a little sick to your stomach, no doubt you had not the slightest idea that you had been poisoned by scavengers living off the dead carcass you just ate.



Meat is costly and it is the most wasteful source of resources. When one removes meat from his or her diet, a whole new world of eating opens up. Cooking and preparing vegetarian style is no more time consuming than cooking meat. It costs less than half as much to eat vegetarian as it does to eat meat. There are excellent, nutritious, and easy to prepare vegetarian dishes that are Italian, Chinese, Indian, Mid-Eastern, French, Spanish, etc.



Additionally, one can enjoy many other foods that he has never tasted because of the meat craze. Most consumers have eaten no more than five or six varieties of beans and legumes — less than 10% of what is available and grains, including different appetizing types of wheat, nuts, and seeds. And they can be prepared very creatively!



In my opinion, there are far more benefits to becoming a vegetarian then there are becoming or staying a meat eater. Due to the fact that I was raised on meat, I have the wonderful experiences from both worlds. As a meat eater, I was constantly sick, tired, and overweight. As a vegetarian, I am healthy, full of energy, and maintaining a perfect weight. I love being a vegetarian and it shows. Because I wish the best for myself, it’s just second nature to want the best for others. From my past experience and research, going vegetarian is the best thing anyone can do for their mind, body and spirit.

[RC]

62. What is the Healthiest Diet for the Human Animal?

"My favourite gem of information about connective tissue concerns the digestibility of elastin. During the digestion of meat in the human gut, elastic fibers are broken down by elastase, an enzyme from the pancreas that would not be there if our evolutionary ancestors had not been at least partly carnivorous. In other words, I have never read of the occurrence of elastin in any human food except meat. So if we have evolved a highly specific enzyme, elastase, to deal with elastin in our food, this can only mean that we are the descendants of meat eaters."
-Professor Howard Swatland , in 'Growth and Structure of Meat Animals'.


The scientific debate on diet and disease is tiresome. In my opinion, as far as the diet component of health is concerned, you will not go far wrong if you overwhelmingly eat an omnivorous, fresh, varied, minimally processed, animal and plant based diet such as our ancestors would have found, protect yourself with a vitamin E supplement (unless you eschew ALL processed and modified food and have access to excellent fresh natural foods-a most unusual situation for Westerners, at least). And relax.

http://www.naturalhub.com/opinion_right_food_for_the_human_animal.htm

[La Coliniere]

77. Thanks rainy

for your very thoughtful post.
Reading "The Jungle" and, most importantly, "Diet for a Small Planet" tipped the scale for me; I went from meat eater to vegetarian 8 years ago, and I never looked back. I still eat some dairy, but this is always diminshing as well. It's just that I love those damned baked goods.

[evolved Anarchopunk]

88. thank you. I'm going to add excerpts from my own research

in a later post, but i have been a vegetarian for about a year and feel so much better as a result. Also i eat my vegetables and fruits raw as often as humanly possible. I know this is essential for healthy growth, we have all been lied to by the subsidiaries and distributors of meat and milk products. We need about a quarter of the daily protein they would suggest and half of the saturated fats and cholesterol they would allow, and yes these fallacious "necessities" are reflected in the "food pyramid".
While i'm on that matter, we don't need to ingest as much bread/grains on a daily basis as well. Our digestive system is stout, for sure, but it is long and complex because we were developed scavengers, not skilled hunters. That only came with time, the scale of which is incomprehensibly small compared to how long our basic digestive systems have been evolving. They are simply too long to digest daily amounts of meat, or diary, which both ferment (i know, eww) unlike vegetables on their way thru and out. Yea, it's. that. simple.

[Kali]

97. so much wrong with some this stuff - especially in#56 but

in reality it is the VEGETABLE matter that "ferments" in a long intestine, meat is more easily and rapidly digested - it doesn't "ferment" it is disolved/absorbed fairly quickly.

meat don't make you fart, beans do. that gas is from fermentation. sorta like a cow. might want to try a basic highschool physiology course sometime.

[Bake]

89. What utter bullshit.

Don't know about YOU, but I have sharp teeth in front, NOT MOLARS. They're called incisors, as I recall.

Your false dichotomy betrays you ... either carnivore or herbivore. You totally ignore omnivores.

As for me, I'm gonna have me a cheeseburger ... or a steak. Mmmmmm! With some fried 'taters.

Bake

[Czolgosz]

108. Which of these two pictures most closely resembles your front teeth?

You may note that herbivores do not have molars as front teeth. They have sharp teeth just like yours.

[SidDithers]

114. Umm... the one with the incisors?...

do i win a prize?

Are you suggesting that maybe you don't have incisors?

Sid

[Czolgosz]

116. Both pictures show incisors.

[Kali]

125. why not show the biting surfaces of the horse's incisors?

and its molars then lets compare. As a matter of fact a better comparison might be an omnivores teeth - show us a pig.

[Czolgosz]

150. The teeth were offered to show that anyone who believes human incisors

disprove that human teeth evolved as a herbivore's teeth is mistaken. I'm not a vegetarian, and I don't personally think people evolved as exclusive herbivores (although I do believe humans evolved eating much more fruits, vegetables, grains, etc. than meats). I have never suggested -- nor do I believe -- that humans are anything but omnivores. However, the suggestion that our incisors disprove that were ever herbivores is incorrect because herbivores have incisors, too.

[Czolgosz]

103. Thanks for posting this (I'm not a vegetarian, but I used to be one).

What's up with all these intentionally provocative posts here lately (by which I mean threads deliberately worded to offend some sizable and identifiable communities here)?

Between the blood-and-gore death penalty lovers to the fuck-vegetarians attitude of this thread, what's up?

I have some personal beliefs that would likely offend many people here, but I would not ordinarily post threads deliberately calculated to offend any sizable community here.

Should we have a "contrarian" forum for this divisive shit?

[JohnnyCougar]

107. What??? Come on. Nobody said "fuck vegetarians." Not even close!

I said I respect everone's opinion, and I wanted to hear the vegetarian perspective. I asked nicely, too.

Just because it is a divisive topic doesn't mean we can't talk rationally about it.

[Czolgosz]

110. Don't be a disingenuous. We both know your thread title was deliberately

provocative. Admit that at least. You can't be so foolish that you truly believe "Mmmmm....animals taste good!" is the way any person would "ask nicely" if he "wanted to hear the vegetarian perspective."

I'm not censoring your right to post whatever you wish, but you can't plausibly deny that you were being deliberately divisive in the topic and the manner in which you presented it.

Why?

[JohnnyCougar]

118. You've come a long way from claiming this is a "fuck vegetarians" thread.

Which is good.

The title was meant to be provocative, but the content of my OP was not. If you read more than just the title, you will realize that there is not a flamewar going on here.

[yewberry]

120. The content of your OP

implies that veg*ns behave unnaturally, don't what's good for us, and that we aren't doing "our duty to the earth" (whatever that means.) You entirely dismiss ethical concerns and claim that we eat "horribly bland" food.

Yes, the title was flamebait. The content of the OP was openly critical. Putting people on the defensive from the start is unlikely to generate positive discussion.

[JohnnyCougar]

131. You're reading too much into it.

I never said that not eating meat is not good for you. I'm just saying that it comes naturally to me. We do have a place to fill in the food chain on this planet. And I didn't say that vegans weren't doing their duty to the earth, either. You entirely made that up.

And I didn't say " eat 'horribly bland' food," I said that "to me" my opinion of a dish without meat is that it is usually horribly bland. Perhaps you can't handle differing opinions, as you so prove in the above post. So let me clarify to you: just because someone's opinion is different doesn't mean they are attacking you. I never attacked anyone in this thread, and as you can see, many vegans and vegetarians responded and didn't think so, either. And they brought up very good points.

I'm simply telling you my view of food from the point of view of the omnivore in me.

[Czolgosz]

124. I said the thread has a "fuck-vegetarians attitude." That attitude started

with the admittedly antagonistic thread title and it continues through many of the posts.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I find the vegetarian baiting unproductive at best. I am also not gay and I have similar feelings about homophobic attitudes; I'm not a woman and I feel the same way about misogyny; I'm white but I feel similarly about racist comments; I'm neither a convict nor the relative or even acquaintance of any convicts but a feel put off by the tone of the death penalty nonsense here lately.

Yuck it up. I just think we could better spend out time on issues we agree about instead of debating issues that divide us. Karl Rove would LOVE this thread.

[JohnnyCougar]

132. LOL...Karl Rove doesn't give a shit about this thread.

And that's the oldest line on DU. If you don't like what the OP is saying, just state "Karl Rove would love this thread." There was little disagreement here until you came around and started turning my words into something they are not. You should be able to handle differing viewpoints better than that.

And this thread hasn't developed into a "fuck vegetarians" thread, nor does it have that attitude. Did you actually read the thread, or did you just have a knee-jerk reaction to the title? How is stating how I percieve the taste of meat "antagonistic." Do you want me to silence myself for your convenience? I said I respected the view of vegans and vegetarians.

[Czolgosz]

147. Karl Rove would love that your such a uniter and not a divider (like *)

You say "if you don't like what the OP is saying, just state 'Karl Rove would love this thread.'" Well, I've never said that or heard that once here. Odd that you've heard it so often....

[JohnnyCougar]

149. ^^^This poster has no shame^^^

Still trying to liken what I say to something Karl Rove would love, huh? Even after I called you out for that despicable tactic?

Oh, well, so my Ignore List gains its first member since the Spring.

[BreweryYardRat]

143. Allow me to refute some points.

"Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding"

What do you call canine teeth, then? They're there for a reason.

"most of mankind for most of human history has lived on vegetarian or near-vegetarian diets."

First things first, allow me to note that hunter-gatherers back in prehistoric times ate meat. What do you think all those cave paintings depict?

Moving on to ancient historical record: The Greeks, who didn't have much room to raise grazing mammals, ate fish all the damn time, and would still eat meat on ceremonial occasions. The Romans ate all kinds of meat. The Celts ate meat. American Indians ate buffalo, deer, etc... Indians didn't eat beef, sure, but that was for religious reasons (same deal with certain meats among Hebrews and some other Near Eastern cultures), and they'd eat other stuff. The Chinese ate meat. African tribes ate meat.

Moving later on in the historical record: Medieval man ate meat. The Aztecs took it a step further and ate human hearts in religious rituals while being fairly developed as a civilization. And these are just the civilizations I can recall off the top of my head.

The only reason ancient people wouldn't eat meat a lot was if they were poor and living in a city where they couldn't raise their own food. And even then, they'd try to buy meat as often as they could. Side note: Greek poor actually had a leg up in situations like these-fishermen would bring in enough fish so that poor people could generally buy sprats or something similar.

Otherwise, people will generally eat meat as much as possible. They won't eat nothing but meat-that's asking for problems-but they will eat it alongside bread, fruits, vegetables, etc...

However, I don't much like factory farms, razing the Amazon so the Brazilians can grow beef cattle, etc...

Edited to add the sentence above and remove some snarkiness.

[Kali]

81. oh please

lay an overboiled unseasoned carrot and a nicely prepared chunk of that rabbit and see what happens. Give me a break.


edit to say I missed the correct vegetable example but my point remains the same

[Bake]

86. Yeah, that explains why we have "canine" teeth ... NOT

Instead of all molars for crushing plants....

Biology 101.

Bake

[Behind the Aegis]

19. I agree!

But...not all animals! Just like some vegetables, some animals are not as yummy. Duck is nasty! Too greasy!

It is so interesting that people want to deny that we are animals. We east meat. We fuck same and other sex partners for pleasure and procreation. We fight over territory and mates. We fear the unknown.

What makes us different from animals? Not intelligence! We are the only animal, outside of the elephant (surprise, surprise) that actively destroys its own environment. We are the only animal to kill because a species because it does not conform to our standards. We are the only animal to think that breeding with different colored species is wrong. We are the only ones to kill because same-sex pairings are "wrong." We are one of the few species that think that it doesn't take a collective (a village) to raise an offspring.

[long_green]

51. nasty? Oh, man

duck is nasty? You're sure as heck not from Louisiana.
It's all question of taste, but I can't understand someone not liking duck meat.

[rainy]

57. Are you saying because we are animals therefore we should eat

meat? What about the elephant, cow, zebra, giraffe and so many more?

Remember the cow gets all of its nutrition form grass. All of it.

[rainy]

58. Posting this at the end so all might see it.

How humans are not physically created to eat meat



Although some historians and anthropologists say that man is historically omnivorous, our anatomical equipment ­ teeth, jaws, and digestive system ­ favors a fleshless diet. The American Dietetic Association notes that "most of mankind for most of human history has lived on vegetarian or near-vegetarian diets."



And much of the world still lives that way. Even on most industrialized countries, the love affair with meat is less than a hundred years old. It started with the refrigerator car and the twentieth-century consumer society. But even with the twentieth century, man's body hasn't adapted to eating meat. The prominent Swedish scientist Karl von Linne states, "Man's structure, external and internal, compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food." The chart below compares the anatomy of man with that of carnivorous and herbivorous animals.



When you look at the comparison between herbivores and humans, we compare much more closely to herbivores than meat eating animals. Humans are clearly not designed to digest and ingest meat.



Meat-eaters: have claws

Herbivores: no claws

Humans: no claws



Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue

Herbivores: perspire through skin pores

Humans: perspire through skin pores



Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding

Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding



Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly

Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.



Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat

Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater



Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.

Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits

Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits



Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Based on a chart by A.D. Andrews, Fit Food for Men, (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970)





Clearly if humans were meant to eat meat we wouldn't have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores.



Many people ask me, "If we weren't supposed to eat meat than why do we?". It is because we are conditioned to eat meat. Also, the ADA (American Dietetic Association) tells us that "most of mankind for most of human history has lived on a vegetarian or Lacto-ovo vegetarian diet.



A popular statement that meat eaters say is; "In the wild, animals kill other animals for food. It's nature." First of all, we are not in the wild. Secondly, we can easily live without eating meat and killing, not to mention we'd be healthier. And finally, as I have already shown, we weren't meant to eat meat. Meat and seafood putrefies within 4 hours after consumption and the remnants cling to the walls of the stomach and intestines for 3-4 days or longer than if a person is constipated. Furthermore, the reaction of saliva in humans is more alkaline, whereas in the case of flesh-eating or preying animals, it is clearly acidic. The alkaline saliva does not act properly on meat.



The final point I would like to make on how we as humans were not meant to eat meat is this. All omnivorous and carnivorous animals eat their meat raw. When a lion kills an herbivore for food, it tears right into the stomach area to eat the organs that are filled with blood (nutrients). While eating the stomach, liver, intestine, etc., the lion laps the blood in the process of eating the dead animals flesh. Even bears that are omnivores eat salmon raw. However, eating raw or bloody meat disgust us as humans. Therefore, we must cook it and season it to buffer the taste of flesh.



If a deer is burned in a forest fire, a carnivorous animal will NOT eat its flesh. Even circus lions have to be feed raw meat so that they will not starve to death. If humans were truly meant to eat meat, then we would eat all of our meat raw and bloody. The thought of eating such meat makes one’s stomach turn. This is my point on how we as humans are conditioned to believe that animal flesh is good for us and that we were meant to consume it for survival and health purposes. If we are true carnivores or omnivores, cooking our meat and seasoning it with salt, ketchup, or tabasco sauce would disguise and we as humans would refuse to eat our meat in this form.



Overall advantages of vegetarianism
You can indeed reap a lot of benefits by being a vegetarian and people have become more aware of the health benefits of being a vegetarian. Animal rights issues is only one of the reasons why people decide to go on a vegetarian diet. People are beginning to care more about the environment. However, the main reason why people go on vegetarian diet is because of health benefits.



Meat is not good for you as it clogs your thinking. This is especially true if you eat red meat; white meat has less fat compared to red meat. Excessive intake of fats into your body can result in having a high level of cholesterol. If you think that not eating meat is going to make you look scrawny or unhealthy please think again. Just imagine that cows, goats, gorillas, elephants, rhinoceroses and so on are all vegetarians (herbivores) but look at how tough these animals are, not to mention their life span which is longer compared to the carnivores (meat eating animals).



If you look at the chicken and vulture (carnivores), these animals eat just about everything and notice how unhealthy these animals look. The Chinese believe that the chi or life force in your body is less when you consume meat and so do the Indians with their ancient yogic principles, their life force was called prana.



The great Tai Chi masters of China were adept at preserving their chi, even if some of the masters were not vegetarians, they still had a balanced diet. It has now been scientifically proven that a balanced vegetarian diet is better compared to a diet that is taken with meat.



There are a lot of misconceptions about being a vegetarian; protein is one of the main topics of debate as a lot of people think that you can only get protein from meat. Vegetarians get a lot of protein, if they eat a variety of fruits, vegetables, grains and legumes. What vegetarians don't get is the excess protein of traditional American diet, excess that leads to kidney overload and mineral deficiency diseases.



A lot of people also think that a vegetarian diet is not a balanced diet. Vegetarian diets have a proportion of three macronutrients, which are complex carbohydrates, protein, and fat. Vegetarian food sources (plants) tend to be higher sources of most micronutrients. Another myth that needs to be clarified is the so-called lack of calcium among vegetarians. Many vegetables, especially green, leafy ones, have a good supply of calcium. The truth is that vegetarians suffer less from osteoporosis (a deficiency of calcium that leads to weak bones).



It is not my intention to force people to become vegetarians. However, vegetarianism is my answer to complete health and wholeness. The three issues to consider in regard to vegetarianism are: spiritual, mental, and physical (nutritional).



The spiritually aspiring person attempts to work on his/her self. The purpose of spiritual growth is to move away from the animal nature into the more human nature that God intended for us to have. Meat eating inhibits this. Again, the same science that sometimes attempts to ignore the existence of a force higher than man also has proved, in the laboratory, that aggression levels are much higher in meat eaters than non-meat eaters! The animal instincts become more powerful every time you eat meat. Another spiritual aspect of being a meat eater is when one must question the necessity and the method as well as the karma of killing animals. However, everyone has their own mores which they must determine for themselves. It is not the purpose of my dissertation to force a specific moral behavior on anyone. Most spiritual people believe auras. Kirilian photography shows us that a force field remains around dead or amputated tissue. You adopt that animal aura when you eat a dead animal. Fruits and vegetables have a higher vibrational aura than animal products. Is it not personal evolution that the spiritual candidate is interested in? If so, meat eating is urgently prohibited.



“You are what you eat”, is a slogan that I love to use to show the mental aspect of vegetarianism. When animals are slaughtered, fear and aggression enzymes are shot into their cells from their glands and other organs, just as in humans, and are part of the dead carcass that goes on to the food store. They remain in the meat until the consumer ingests those same enzymes, which are molecularly very similar to those found in humans. Fruits and vegetables do not have emotions; therefore, when they are picked they do not release any emotions cells prior to digestion. The enzymes within fruits and vegetables supply the body with sufficient nutrients that will always uphold a healthy state of mind.



Fruits and vegetables are high in nutrients; the very thing the body needs to live a long disease and pain free life. The same cannot be said for meat. Nutritionally, the alkaline-based digestive system of humans will not properly break down substantial acid substances, the greatest of which is meat.



Colon cancer is rampant! This is caused by the slow evacuation and the putrefaction in the colon of the remains of meat. Lifelong vegetarians never suffer from such an illness. Many meat eaters believe that meat is the sole source of protein. However, the quality of this protein is so poor that little of it can ever be utilized by humans because it is incomplete and lacks the correct combination of amino acids, the building blocks of protein. Studies show that the average American gets five times the amount of protein needed. It is a common medical fact that excess protein is dangerous, the prime danger being that uric acid (the waste product produced in the process of digesting protein) attacks the kidneys, breaking down the kidney cells called nephrons. This condition is called nephritis; the prime cause of it is overburdening the kidneys. More usable protein is found in one tablespoon of tofu or soybeans than the average serving of meat!



Have you ever seen what happens to a piece of meat that stays in the sun for three days? Meat can stay in the warmth of the intestine for at least four days until it is digested. It does nothing but wait for passage. Often, it usually stays there for

much longer, traces remaining for up to several months. Colonic therapists always see meat passing through in people who have been vegetarians for several years, thus indicating that meat remains undigested there for a long time. Occasionally this has been documented in twenty-year vegetarians!



Some vegetarians claim they are more satisfied after they eat. The reason for this is that there are fewer ketones (protein-digestive substances) formed when vegetable protein is digested. For many, ketones cause a trace amount of nausea which one normally interprets as a decreased desire for food due to this uncomfortable and slight degree of queasiness. Although the body calls for more food, the taste buds tolerate less. This is the danger of the popular high-protein diet substances on the market. This abnormally high level of ketones is called ketosis and refers to the state of starvation that the body incurs due to the inability of the appetite to call for nutrition. Most Americans who eat the wrong

type of carbohydrates never recognize the high amount of complex carbohydrates required to overthrow this condition. Also, when the blood ketone level is too high, it results in abnormally acidic blood, called acidosis.



Tigers or lions who eat meat and grow strong on it have acid-based digestive systems. Our Hydrochloric Acid isn’t strong enough to fully digest meat. Also, their intestines are in a straight run of about five feet long, not twisted and turned, layer over layer, compacted into a small area like the human intestine, which is twenty feet long.



Meats are frozen for a long period of times. Some meat (especially poultry) is frozen up to two years. Cold temperatures do not kill all species of bacteria. Worse than this, as it is shipped and stored, most frozen meat is thawed and refrozen many times. This is almost unavoidable.



Meat eaters suffer more frequently from various types of food poisoning than vegetarian eaters, so much so that statistics show that every American has had food poisoning on at least one occasion. When you've felt ill, out-of-sorts, had

diarrhea, or were just a little sick to your stomach, no doubt you had not the slightest idea that you had been poisoned by scavengers living off the dead carcass you just ate.



Meat is costly and it is the most wasteful source of resources. When one removes meat from his or her diet, a whole new world of eating opens up. Cooking and preparing vegetarian style is no more time consuming than cooking meat. It costs less than half as much to eat vegetarian as it does to eat meat. There are excellent, nutritious, and easy to prepare vegetarian dishes that are Italian, Chinese, Indian, Mid-Eastern, French, Spanish, etc.



Additionally, one can enjoy many other foods that he has never tasted because of the meat craze. Most consumers have eaten no more than five or six varieties of beans and legumes — less than 10% of what is available and grains, including different appetizing types of wheat, nuts, and seeds. And they can be prepared very creatively!



In my opinion, there are far more benefits to becoming a vegetarian then there are becoming or staying a meat eater. Due to the fact that I was raised on meat, I have the wonderful experiences from both worlds. As a meat eater, I was constantly sick, tired, and overweight. As a vegetarian, I am healthy, full of energy, and maintaining a perfect weight. I love being a vegetarian and it shows. Because I wish the best for myself, it’s just second nature to want the best for others. From my past experience and research, going vegetarian is the best thing anyone can do for their mind, body and spirit.

[Crunchy Frog]

176. Since the other thread was locked before I could respond

to your post to me concerning enzymes: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5569908&mesg_id=5570658 I will post my response here.

I'm not a scientist or an expert, but I have taken cell biology, chemistry, and basic anatomy and physiology. It seems to me that a bunch of magical and mystical qualities are being conferred on enzymes that aren't warranted, but that will sound impressive to people who lack a basic understanding of biology.

Enzymes are proteins, ie, they are long strings of amino acids. They exist in every single cell, and are necessary for catalysing virtually all chemical processes that occur within the cell. Digestive enzymes are a small, specialized subset of all enzymes. The enzymes in your body are endogenous, meaning that your body synthesizes them for you, you don't get whole enzymes from your food. Like all proteins made by your body cells, they are coded for in your DNA, and synthesized from that out of the amino acids that you take in through your food. Your body produces its own digestive enzymes, coded for in its own DNA. Though some foods do have enzymes in them that help break them down, digestive enzymes come primarily from your own body. For a good basic summary of what enzymes are and what they do, this Wikipedia article is pretty informative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzyme

It is absurd to talk about enzymes as being "living" or "dead". Enzymes are simply biological molecules consisting of long strings of amino acids. As such, they can be broken down or denatured, but not "killed". Furthermore, I'm not aware of any enzymes that are actually absorbed into your body from your gut in order to play a role in cellular processes. Those enzymes are synthesized within the cell from the DNA blueprint out of amino acid building blocks that come from the proteins that are broken down in your gut.

I'm betting that science can duplicate enzymes, probably through recombinant DNA technology. Same way they synthesise any other biological molecule.

I did find this article on the internet, which appears to be about the theory that you're propounding here, and seems to do a pretty good job of debunking it. http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-2b.shtml It seems that this theory is based on extremely outdated scientific data. There has been a vast amount discovered about biochemistry since the first half of the 20th century.

I think I will forego seeing your doctor in Alaska. It is a prohibitive distance for me, and I prefer my health care professionals to be a little more scientifically up to date, and not so enamored of pseudoscience.


I will be happy to engage with you further on this subject if you wish.

[Kali]

87. actually I have observed many so called pure herbavores

consuming dead carcass material in "wild" settings - especially cattle eating rawhide (protien) and bones (calcium, phosphorus possibly other micro nutrients) of other animals

MANY herbavores need mineral suplementation - either from rock/earth scources or from bones/antlers/etc.

You are fully entitled to have your moral reasons for your dietary choices, but please don't try to make a scientific or evolutionary argument for the various "isms" out there - they don't wash. Omnivorous is what we spent most of our time as. We CAN survive on almost anything. We are highly adaptable organisms. What we THRIVE on is a high variety of food stuffs.

[Behind the Aegis]

164. You missed the point.

It is a part of who we are as human animals. We are not herbivorous animals, but omnivores. If we were like the cow, then we, too, would get all our nutrition from plants, but we don't, which is why supplements were created. The supplements are artificial and do not give us the same needs as meat.

[Crunchy Frog]

177. Indeed, if we tried to eat like a cow, we would starve to death.

Complex animals are not able to digest cellulose, which is the major component of cow food. Cows have very complex digestive systems which are filled with cellulose digesting bacteria, with which they have a symbiotic relationship. Humans do not have a gut which is capable of sustaining this kind of internal ecosystem, hence the cellulose that we eat goes right through us.

I don't know why people here keep argueing that humans are somehow classical herbivores, and therefore somehow akin to hooved mammals. Humans are primates. We have primate teeth, primate digestive systems, and primate food preferences. Your basic primate is evolved to eat a variety of largely plant based foods, but more of the fruit, nut, bud, type, and supplemented with animal protein from invertebrates and occasional small animals.

[shockra]

21. Comparative Anatomy

Facial Muscles
Carnivore--Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore--Well-developed
Omnivore--Reduced
Human----Well-developed

Jaw Type
Carnivore--Angle not expanded
Herbivore--Expanded angle
Omnivore--Angle not expanded
Human----Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
Carnivore--On same plane as molar teeth
Herbivore--Above the plane of the molars
Omnivore--On same plane as molar teeth
Human----Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion
Carnivore--Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore--No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Omnivore--Shearing; minimal side-to-side
Human----No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
Carnivore--Temporalis
Herbivore--Masseter and pterygoids
Omnivore--Temporalis
Human----Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
Carnivore--Large
Herbivore--Small
Omnivore--Large
Human----Small

Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore--Short and pointed
Herbivore--Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Omnivore--Short and pointed
Human----Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore--Long, sharp and curved
Herbivore--Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
Omnivore--Long, sharp and curved
Human----Short and blunted

Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore--Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
Herbivore--Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
Omnivore--Sharp blades and/or flattened
Human----Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
Carnivore--None; swallows food whole
Herbivore--Extensive chewing necessary
Omnivore--Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
Human----Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
Carnivore--No digestive enzymes
Herbivore--Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Omnivore--No digestive enzymes
Human----Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach Type
Carnivore--Simple
Herbivore--Simple or multiple chambers
Omnivore--Simple
Human----Simple

Stomach Acidity
Carnivore--Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Herbivore--pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Omnivore--Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Human----pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

Stomach Capacity
Carnivore--60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Herbivore--Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
Omnivore--60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Human----21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine
Carnivore--3 to 6 times body length
Herbivore--10 to more than 12 times body length
Omnivore--4 to 6 times body length
Human----10 to 11 times body length

Colon
Carnivore--Simple, short and smooth
Herbivore--Long, complex; may be sacculated
Omnivore--Simple, short and smooth
Human----Long, sacculated

Liver
Carnivore--Can detoxify vitamin A
Herbivore--Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Omnivore--Can detoxify vitamin A
Human----Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidney
Carnivore--Extremely concentrated urine
Herbivore--Moderately concentrated urine
Omnivore--Extremely concentrated urine
Human----Moderately concentrated urine

Nails
Carnivore--Sharp claws
Herbivore--Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Omnivore--Sharp claws
Human----Flattened nails

http://www.earthsave.bc.ca/materials/articles/health/comparative.html

[Jim__]

36. Thanks shockra - good information - n/t

[JohnnyCougar]

49. This doesnt change the fact that we have eaten meat for thousands of years

We are different because we usually don't eat raw meat. But our teeth are shaped to take advantage of both plant and animal food. And our bodies contain the proper bacteria to digest meat.

[XemaSab]

67. Thousands of years?

I was thinking about the hunting thread the other day, and I was thinking that humans have hunted and scavenged for meat, eggs, and other animal products for possibly millions of years, and it's only in the last hundred or so that hunting has begun to drop out of American culture.

I'm a vegetarian, but all this BS about how humans haven't evolved to eat meat and humans have only been eating meat for the last hundred years is total BS. And the woman who was arguing that cooked meat has no nutritional value, um, iron? Protein? Fats? Vitamins? Amino acids? You can get these things from plants, but you can also get them from meat.

I don't eat meat for ethical reasons, but it's my understanding that humans everywhere eat meat, be they Eskimos or Bushmen, Incans or Hmong. If humans had only "started" to eat meat in the last hundred years, how is this explained?

In the US we have the luxury of having year round fresh vegetables as well as access to foods from non-European cultures, such as tofu. We can afford nutritionally to not eat critters, and I think we shouldn't eat critters, but "shouldn't" and "can't" are two very different things.

[Kali]

98. Thankyou

good thinking, and good appreciation of the actual LUXURY your choice is.

[Emit]

104. Thanks so much, shockra

I just read a vegetarian cook book written by, of all people, Marilu Henner, who made similar claims about the teeth and intestinal formations of humans vs. other carnivores and herbivores. When I noted to a friend the point she was making, that our teeth, for example, are more like herbivores, I caught a lot of flack and rolling of the eyes. This person loves the tast of meat, and got very defensive about the issue altogether--she wouldn't even listen to me read the passage Henner wrote!

So, thanks for the link and this information. I'll be passing it on!

[spooked911]

119. Awesome! Thanks!

[Quixote1818]

174. This really doesn't mean anything

I think it's possible that when humans were evolving and were more like Chimpanzees, we ate more vegetables and were built to eat vegetables. When humans evolved and became more intelligent we learned to use tools for hunting and learned how to outsmart animals and so meat then became an important part of our regular diet. Eventually we became so smart that we learned to heard animals and plant food. Both meat and vegetables became important parts of our diet.

Because of this recent change in perhaps the last 2.5 million years evolution has not caught up with our diet change. So our digestive systems, teeth and the build of our skulls and jaws are in a transition period trying to catch up with our diet change due to our ability to use tools. We may resemble Herbivore's more but their is absolutely no doubt that meat has become an important part of our diet due to evolution.

Most carnivores also eat vegetables along with their primarily meat diets. Bears eat berries, nuts and grass, dogs will eat grass and nuts.

One known fact however. They did a study of Centurians (people who have lived to 100 or more years) a few years ago and the one thing they all had in common was that they all included meat in their diets. The longest living humans on earth live in Japan and fish is a major part of their diet. Humans are living longer and longer even though we are eating more and more meat.

Morally however, because humans have become so smart and have a sense of morality I feel we should try to move away from eating animals for food. We have the smarts to survive without eating meat and I believe we should learn to respect the precious lives of Animals because we can. Just because an animal tastes good doesn't mean we should eat them to satisfy a craving.

So, naturally we are most definitely Omnivores
Morally however I think we should move toward being Herbivores.

I suspect many people will disagree with my moral belief though and that is cool.

[depakid]

23. Better have another look at your teeth

If they look like mine, they don't look very much like carnivore teeth.

Just sayin'

[salin]

25. MMM...it is also human nature,

apparently, to try to bait others rather than respect the choice of others. Go figure?

[ShrewdLiberal]

26. I'm a strict vegetarian. Here's why...

I study philosophy and symbolic logic, as well as the fundamentals of cognitive science and quantum physics.

The more philosophy I studied, the more Aristotelian I became (logical, both in Aristotelian square of opposition and Boolean symbolic logic), the more I introspected on eating animals. Yes, it is natural to eat animals, most animals eat other animals. But I find it, logically speaking, repugnant to eat members of species of our own genus, animal. Man is a species of the genus animal. Cows are species of the genus animal, so are all the other animals men and women eat.

We are rational beings, which separates us in a fundamentally important way from lower animals. We have the ability to separate, morally and ethically, conventional rights and wrongs, social norms. For instance, killing our fellow human beings, raping people, robbing people, assaulting people, whether physically or verbally, etc. Ethics, morality, and virtues are apart of our being qua being. Why is it that we are able to distinguish these fundamental epistemic desiderata in our noetic, cognitive functions? Because we are more highly evolved and cognitively devoloped.

I believe most vegetarians recognize this obvious desiderata, cognitive marker so to speak. It's an intuition of vegetarians. We don't believe it is right to eat animals, just like most people don't believe it's right to murder, rape, or rob. We also believe in the "golden rule" of ethics; namely, treat others as you wish to be treated. That's why I'm pro-life. Would I have wanted to be killed five years ago? Absolutely not. Would I have wanted to have been killed 10 years ago? Never. Would I have wanted to be killed when I was five years old? No. How about when I was five months old in the womb of my mother? Again...no. So how can I believe it is right to treat innocent others in a way I myself find repugnant, if not nefarious? I believe abortion is fundamentally wrong. I find it intuitively so.

Being a vegetarian is a strictly rational decision for me. Just because we act towards others in a way that they wouldn't or won't act towards us doesn't take away from the fact that we act in a moral or ethically proper way.

It was once in human nature to kill each other. Do you agree with the Iraq war? Do you agree with what the terrorists did on 911? It can be argued that they acted out their primal instincts when they (Bush and the terrorists) kill innocent people, whether in Iraq or in the U.S. The argument that eating animals is right, by your opinion, just because it is part of human evolution is plain wrong. You would have to accept murder, rape, robbery, and all the other ethically and morally bankrupt parts of past human evolutionary branches.

Also, being a vegetarian is healthy, both mentally, emotionally, and physically. It creates strict self-discipline as well. To mock us or make fun of us is ignorant of the reasons for our lifestyles.

[rainy]

61. most animals eat leaves and grass!

[XemaSab]

71. You need to brush up on your taxonomy

Classification works like this:

Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Family
Genus
Species
(Subspecies)

I remember it by the mnemonic "Kinky people can often find good sex." (Thanks, Cory Bartlett!)

The kingdom we're in is Animalia. The "kingdom" concept is a fluid and not well-defined concept, with some taxonomists putting fungi under Animalia.

We're in the phylum Chordata, which means we have a spinal cord. Other phyla include the Arthropoda (such as insects), Annelida (such as earthworms) and Mollusca (such as snails and squids).

We're in the subphylum Vertebrata, which seperates us from some primitive fishes.

We're in the class Mammalia. Other classes include amphibians, birds, and reptiles.

We're in the order Primates. Other orders under Mammalia are Carnivora (such as dogs and cats), Pinnipedia (seals), Chiroptera (bats), Artiodactyla (deer), and a whole bunch more.

We're in the family Hominidae. We're the only member of this family.

We're also the only member of our genus, Homo.

So we are related to creatures such as cows, but not closely at all. And certainly not in the same genus.

Our closest relatives occur at the order level, with the other primates.

[Kali]

99. I respect your reasoning but I also think a lot of people do it because it

is faddish. I think (from reading lot of responses in these kinds of threads) there is a LOT of poor reasoning and misinformation flying around.

I have no problem with folks choosing thier diets however they like - I do have a problem with the attempt to twist science or the holier than thou attitude some exhibit. And I often am shocked at some peoples behavior, especially when in other cultural situations (ie traveling to less economically advantaged countries and rejecting the local food, demanding special treatment for no other reason than to show imagined moral superiority)

[yewberry]

105. "for no other reason than to show imagined moral superiority"

People are veg*ns for a lot of reasons; you don't know what they might be by looking at them. You are ascribing motivations to others based on your opinions.

Would you like to hear a description of what happens when I accidentally ingest a meat product? (hint: the answer is not "yes.") You wouldn't know that by looking at me.

[Kali]

122. No you are mistaken

In the examples of travelers that I mentioned this has been with individuals I KNOW and I KNOW why they are vegetarians. I am not talking about strangers I may have observed - I am talking about really ungracious and rude behavior.

In general meat is EASIER to digest than plant products, so yes I would be interested in what your illness and a general description of the symptoms are. My experience is that allergies to mammalian meat are rare. I am NOT an expert in the area but AM interested in more information.

[yewberry]

134. Ah, you're speaking about individuals you know?

Yes, that is a very different situation than I envisioned. Rude and ungracious is just plain crappy. I may be oversensitive to that charge (gee, ya think? :crazy:)--I was recently referred to as having "cosmetic requirements" about food, I guess as opposed to people whose needs are more genuine than mine.

You're right about true meat allergies being rare. I'm not allergic, but like many long-terms veg*ns, I'm pretty sensitive to animal products. Also, individually, I just don't handle fats well.

The short version: my family history led me away from meat. We've got obesity, high blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, a whole assortment of cancers, Alzheimer's disease, gall bladder disease, kidney stones--all the big hits. Add in GERD, chronic bronchitis, and lactose intolerance--I was sick a lot. I gave up meat when I was a teenager (the Reagan years!) and my body just doesn't seem to recognize meat as food.

When I eat high-fat foods, the symptoms are like gall bladder disease--nausea, vomiting, weakness. When I get hold of meat products (stocks, mostly, are what creep into foods) the results are (sorry, I don't know how else to say it) immediate gastric distress and painful diarrhea. Nice!

In theory, I could reintroduce meat into my diet, but why would I? Aside from any ethical and environmental concerns I have with eating animals, the health issues feel like enough in and of themselves to reinforce my choices. I don't know--I don't begrudge anyone their choices, but it wouldn't make sense for me.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to another point of view. It's a deeply personal issue for a lot of people, and I do appreciate that you've gone to the trouble of asking.

[JohnnyCougar]

137. See, isn't this good discussion?

I know there is bacteria in meat-eaters' guts that help digest meat, and that that bacteria usually goes away if you haven't eaten meat for a while. I'm not sure about the details of this, but I know a lot of vegans and vegetarians that get sick if they have meat, my roommate included. If you start eating meat regularly, though this sickness should go away eventually. Another one of my friends had to stop being a vegan because he went to culinary school to become a cook. He used to want to vomit every time he had meat. He is fine with it now.

The environmental concerns do bother me, though. I don't want rainforest to be chopped down to get me my meat. Some places are meant for grazing, like the plains of Oklahoma...but we don't need to be making farmland out of rainforest, either. I rarely eat beef anyway (simply because I don't think it tastes that great compared to pork or chicken). It would be interesting to find out which animals are better to consume from an environmental standpoint.

[Cats Against Frist]

145. Dude, you skipped deconstruction

Your "norms" and "morals" are all made-up constructs. Sure, they may be agreed upon by many, but I'm sure you're familiar with argumentum ad populum.

Everyone has a place -- herbivores, omnivores, carnivores. You don't like to eat meat, so don't. Others do. You have no more idea about what true "ethics" are, than anyone else does. So, you don't eat animals. Are you going to refuse all medical treatment that was tested on animals? Any advancements from space travel that was pioneered by monkeys?

You've drawn an arbitrary picture box, and fit your morals into it. It's a pretty one -- I like the vegetarianism and the pro-life thing, together -- but you are probably aware that most of the other vegetarian posters' arbitrary picture boxes are "pro-choice" -- at least at DU, and that's their prefered set of constructs.

I don't think there's anything to make fun of -- about you being a vegetarian, but your know-it-all moral authoritarian post is good for some laughs...

[livinginphotographs]

27. Practice what you preach?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5561855&mesg_id=5563452

[JohnnyCougar]

47. Hey...look at the difference between that thread and this thread.

No one is calling anyone names on here. There is nothing but good discussion. Just because it is a controversial topic doesn't mean we have to start swearing at each other, and this thread is proof of that.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

73. That is only because of the restrain people on this thread have shown

Not because your first post was any less inflammatory.

[JohnnyCougar]

91. LOL...do you really see no difference?

Quote from my thread:

Obviously, there are many different opinions on this matter, and I respect them all (mostly). I'd like to hear vegan and non-vegan thoughts on this. I can enjoy some vegetarian dishes, but they are only good if the cook really knows what they are doing (like my Hindu roommate). But most dishes are horribly bland to me without meat.

Quote from other thread:

You know, some of you people are full of shit

You claim to be "liberal". Tolerant. Progressive. Caring. Thoughtful...Either you're for humanity and what's right, or you're not.

Now please explain to me who is being liberal and tolerant with their statements, and who is the pot calling the kettle black.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

126. No, your first line was "Mmmm....animal tastes good"

Which I guess whould be the equivelent of "Executions are fun!"

Nice try though, picking a line that was not as inflammatory from your post and picking the most inflammatory line from CatWomans. That was pretty smooth.

[JohnnyCougar]

148. So you are comparing executions to eating meat?

No, the difference is that I am welcoming others' opinions when Cat Woman is saying that other people are full of shit.

You can drop this argument. There is no merit to it. I have laid out the obvious differences in our posts, and you have chosen to ignore them in order to further your argument.

"Mmmmmm....animals taste good" is not comparable in the least bit to saying other people are "full of shit" if they disagree with me.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

170. lol, "I welcome other opinions" "there is no merit to your argument!"

Right.

It is not the subject matter, it is how you pose the question.

[JohnnyCougar]

172. Me pointing out serious flaws in your analogies...

...does not mean that I am not listening to your opinion. In fact you haven't offered any opinion at all. You have just offered up invalid analogy after invalid analogy in an attempt to bait me into an argument. Congratulations...it worked.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

181. Who's posts are you reading? "analogy after analogy"?

There is only one thing I said which was this: You posted that argumentative posts are a shame. Then you post this post, whose opening title is very very combative. I do not compare the subject matter, only the manner in which the questions were posed.

[Czolgosz]

152. Great point!

[greyl]

29. Are you a smoker?

That may explain why you think vegetable meals are bland.
You are aware of jalapeno peppers, right? ;)

[JohnnyCougar]

45. No...

But I do love jalepenos. Those are the vegetarian dishes that I like...the hot and spicy ones.

[greyl]

31. The progressive issue is that the food industry is horrible.

So on those grounds alone, it can be argued that it is wrong to support the animal products industry.

I can't imagine a solid argument as to how a meat diet is more virtuous or moral than a vegan one.
It should be obvious to all but the staunchest vegan that it would be immoral to starve to death while sitting in front of a pot of beaf stew.

[burythehatchet]

34. mmmmmmm....impacted bowels nt

[Crunchy Frog]

35. Humans are primates,

and primates are vegetarian for the most part, although many of them supplement their diet with substantial quantities of insects and other invertebrates, and sometimes with occasional small birds and mammals.

Our closest relative is the chimpanzee. For a long time, they were believed to be exclusively vegetarian (with the exception of the above caveats). It was Jane Goodall who first observed chimps engaging in complex, cooperative hunting behavior, and meat eating. It turns out that they eat large numbers of red colobus monkies, as well as other small to medium sized mammals such as baby wild pigs, that arent' too difficult to catch. Meat remains a relatively small part of their diet, but it is in very high demand when available, and they eat it with great relish, apparently preferring it to most other foods. Since chimpanzees are closer to humans, both genetically, and in terms of anatomy, physiology, and behavior, than any other animal, we can probably take that as somewhat of a cue to our own evolutionary heritage, hence "nature".

However, it seems likely that there have been some significant changes in the 6,000,000 or so years since ours and chimp's lineage diverged. The most important change has probably been the large increase in brain size. Since the brain needs more energy than any other type of tissue, it seems that the energy needs of our ancestors would have gone up substantially as their brain size increased, and animal fat is the most concentrated source of energy. There is paleontological evidence that very early humans were already scavenging the bones of dead animals and breaking them apart to extract and eat the fatty marrow. In the ensuing few million years, it is likey that meat has come to play an ever larger role in our diet. This would seem to be supported by the kinds of stone tools that we have found, whose function seems largely related to hunting and processing food animals. The reason for the small canines and jaws (a change from other primates where canines tend to be large, despite being largely vegetarian), would likey be explained by the increased reliance on tool use and eventually fire to process meat.

I don't doubt that most humans crave meat (I do) and that it is natural too. We crave many things that we think of as "bad" for us, such as concentrated sugars, fats, starches, and salt. It's likely that evolution programmed us to crave these things when they were very scarce and provided us with badly needed and difficult to obtain nutrients, and when there wasn't enough of the stuff around for us to harm ourselves by eating all we could get. It is only in the modern era that things are produced in huge quantities, easily and cheaply available, so that if we follow our cravings, we can eat vastly more than is good for us, and end up getting sick from it. Evolution only responds to immediate circumstances, and doesn't predict the future.

So, I agree with you that meat eating is part of our biological heritage, and that it is probably natural for many people to crave it, and enjoy the taste. My feeling about vegetarianism and veganism is that they are also appropriate ways of eating for the people who choose them. Food preferences are strongly affected by culture, and belief systems, and humans are evolved to be able to use a very large variety of foods. In fact, for much of human history and prehistory, meat has been relatively scarce and difficult to come by, and many people have had to rely on largely vegetarian diets, and to find fats and proteins in other foods, and our bodies are able to do that as well. We are very versatile animals that can adapt to a great variety of conditions. The nutrients required by the human body can be met by vegetarian and vegan diets, and the ubiquity and cheapness of meat in modern society, as well as the greater fat content of said meat, means that most people in developed societies are probably getting way more than is healthy for them, especially if they are simply following their cravings.

My fundamental belief about this question is that nutritional needs of humans in modern societies can be met in a large variety of ways, and that people should be free to follow their preferences, whatever their motives may be, without being judged by others for their choices. I have nothing but respect for people who choose to follow vegetarian or vegan diets, whether for health reasons, ethical concerns, or simply due to personal preference. I have no judgement towards people who choose to eat meat, whether a little or alot (I'm not a huge fan either of hunting, or of factory farming).

I would like to see us spending less time disapproving of each others personal lifestyle choices, and more time focusing on our common concerns, especially on a board like this whose main focus is the promotion of progressive politics.

Anyway, I apologize for the long winded dissertation, and hope I don't annoy too many people with it, if any people even bother to read it at all. :)

[renate]

96. "...less time disapproving, more time focusing on common concerns"

Amen to that!
And I ALWAYS read every one of your posts, Crunchy Frog!

[Kali]

100. Bravo

and rather ironic name eh? I haven't seen any discussions of amphibiophagy hehehehe

[Crunchy Frog]

154. Actually, the full name is...

Crunchy, raw, unboned, real, dead frog. I just go by Crunchy Frog for short. They are very good in chocolates just so long as you don't take the bones out, so they remain crunchy.:evilgrin:

[Czolgosz]

153. Great observations. May get lost among the grade-school-level discourse

[Warren DeMontague]

160. Best Line of the Weekend:

"I would like to see us spending less time disapproving of each others personal lifestyle choices"

Damn straight.

[natrat]

37. i think if you can butcher a cow then fine

it's too fucking ez to get a 79 cent cheeseburger while mcdonalds burns the amazon for cheap cattle-the whole thing is too fucking ez with these smug bastards saying how they feel it's in there nature to have a tripple bacon deluxe at wendys. "it's in our nature to eat animals"-what a load of fat lazy waistful american shit

[RC]

41. It is our nature to eat meat.

What was the diet of the American Indian before the white man came? what was the diet of the white man when he arrived over here?

I don't mind anyone being a vegetarian, it is the misinformation and outright bullshit some spread in trying to convince other human beings that we are something that we are not.

[stevietheman]

64. And I just find it odd how people find the time to rail against...

others' eating habits. I eat meat because I like it, although I love veggies too. End of discussion. I'm not changing my eating habits just because some meat producers are irresponsible. It would be like stopping breathing because some factories are overpolluting the air.

The honest approach to dealing with meat production is having and enforcing standards for its production, not in telling human beings to stop eating what they enjoy eating.

[Kali]

101. Good point!

that damn love it or leave it syndrome - what about FIXING it????!!!

[expatriot]

155. I am what you say we are not.

I and million of others abstain from meat. We have an understanding of nutrition now that enables us to go meatless.

It is our nature to be naked, but we learned to wrap ourselves in the skins of other animals and then to wrap ourselves in cloth made of plant fibers. It is our nature to be flightless but we learned the art of aerodynamics and made machines and now we fly. Things change.

People should take personal responsibility for the choices they make and not blame "nature." For one thing, millions of us are defying this supposed "nature" and we are physiologically the same creature as you.

[JohnnyCougar]

43. I think this stance is fair enough.

[kliljedahl]

39. I think so too

Keith’s Barbeque Central

[Toots]

42. Quite obvious you never studied anything about nutrition

Humans are still evolving. We not only don't need meat it is harmful to our bodies. There are many times more animals that are vegetarians than are carnivores.

[JohnnyCougar]

44. Well, my body hasn't been harmed by all the meat I have eaten

I'm in great health!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. Plants scream when you pluck them.

[prolesunited]

66. Do you have proof of that?

Or are you just parroting what you have hear other people say?

[Occulus]

83. for what it's worth

http://www.doesgodexist.org/MayJun96/WhenAPlantScreams.html

But I can't seem to find the actual article. This blurb, however, sources Popular Science.

[prolesunited]

93. Discredited

44 Aren't there studies that show that plants can scream, etc.?
How can something without vocal apparatus scream? Perhaps the questioner intends to suggest that plants somehow express feelings or emotions. This notion is popularized in the book "The Secret Life of Plants", by Tompkins and Bird, 1972. The book describes "experiments" in which plants are claimed to respond to injury and even to the thoughts and emotions of nearby humans. The responses consist of changes in the electrical conductivity of their leaves. The truth is, however, that nothing but a dismal failure has resulted from attempts to replicate these experiments. For some definitive reviews, see Science, 1975, 189:478 and The Skeptical Inquirer, 1978, 2(2):57.
But what about plant responses to insect invasion? Does this suggest that plants "feel" pain? No published book or paper in a scientific journal has been cited as indeed making this claim that "plants feel pain". There is interesting data suggesting that plants react to local tissue damage and even emit signaling molecules serving to stimulate chemical defenses of nearby plants. But how is this relevant to the claim that plants feel and suffer from pain? Where are the replicated experiments and peer-reviewed citations for this putative fact? There are none.
Let us, for the sake of argument, consider the form of logic employed by the plant-pain promoters:
premise 1: Plants are responsive to "sense" impressions.
premise 2: As defined in the dictionary, anything responsive to sense impressions is sentient.
conclusion 1: Plants are sentient.
premise 3: Sentient beings are conscious of sense impressions.
conclusion 2: Plants are conscious of sense impressions.
premise 4: To be conscious of a noxious stimuli is unpleasant.
conclusion 3: Noxious stimuli to plants are unpleasant, i.e., painful.
There is a major logical sleight-of-hand here. The meaning of the term "sentient" changes between premise 2 ("responsive to sense impressions") and premise 3 ("conscious of sense impressions"). Thus, equivocation on the usage of "sentient" is used to bootleg the false conclusion 3. There is also an equivocation on the meaning of "painful" ("unpleasant" versus the commonly understood meaning). --TA
If we can bring ourselves to momentarily assume (falsely) that plants feel pain, then we can easily argue that by eliminating animal farming, we reduce the total pain inflicted on plants, leading to the ironic conclusion that plant pain supports the AR position.

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/Morality/Biology/InsectAR.htm#faq42


There is actually some research that indicates that plants do have some kind of response when we cut them, as they release a chemical called ethylene which seems to control factors such as cell growth. However, plants are devoid of nervous systems, nerve endings, and brains and so although it is feasible to reason that anything that is living can exhibit a response to physical stimulus, it seems far-fetched to attribute pain to plants because they cannot have a perception of pain. In any case, on the plant front I do think a line has to be drawn in the sand. When that lobster gets lowered into the boiling waters he will feel pain, and you can bet your house that it is more then even the most caring, sharing tomatoe! Pain minimisation has got to be the order of the day, not sainthood. Screw aubergines and tomatoes I say! Kill the vegetables! Save the animals! They really ARE feeling pain and KNOWING IT is someway along the path to helping to STOP IT.

http://www.firstscience.com/site/editor/024_ramblings_05092003.asp

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

113. I'm parroting what the plants say (scream-cry).

[expatriot]

135. When they start testing pain-killers on brocolli...

or neuroligical research on asparagus I will look at your argument seriously.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

168. Don't you hear the screaming on Saturday morning when everyone

is cutting their lawns?







:sarcasm:

[G_j]

50. I object to the cruelty of factory farming

And I know of old time farmers who agree that modern factory farming is cruel and will have nothing to do with it.

Our callousness as a culture to cruelty is dangerous.
It is only a matter of degrees to other cruelties when we overlook accepted cruelty. Many murderers were animal abusers as children.
I wonder what we teach our children by accepting cruelty of any kind.

[G_j]

92. three hrs later

back to see if anyone has commented on this.
oh well...

[sproutster]

52. I love meat.

I am not sorry for it either. When I was pregnent and needed iron desperately, I took the supplements and was totally ill. I switched to liver and my system tolerated it soo much better.

I found when I was pregnent food was different and my cravings (and aversions) really changed my diet. I lived off of liver, cranberries, broccoli in cheese sauce and milk.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. Hell Yeah We Are Meat Eaters! Gimme Steak Babyyyyy!!!!

Give me a big fat juicy fucking 30 oz steak to chomp my teeth into. Of course we are meat eaters. We are omnivores. I mean, if someone wants to be a vegan to each their own, but while they're chompin on their tofu my ass will be chompin on a big fat juicy fuckin steak!!!!

[Bake]

90. Pass the Heinz 57 or A-1 and I'll join you!

Why is it that vegetarians and ex-smokers feel the need to be so damn evangelistic about it????

Make mine medium rare, please.

Bake

[Err]

55. Damn right they do!

Especially with ketchup!

Mmmmmmm...

[Odin2005]

63. The reason we non't have a lot of adaptations for meat-eating...

...is that it is only in the last 2.5 million years that meat has been an important part of our diet (though pre-Homo hominid species may of scavenged ocasionally), first by scavenging during the dry season, then by hunting. We are omnivores that just recently evolved from herbivores, which is why we retain many herbiviourous physiological characteristics. That vegans have to so carefully manage thier diet to get enough essential amino acids is proof that total herbivory is unatural. Carefully managine of a diet was a luxury our Stone Age ancestors did not have, they ate what they found, or starved.

[kineneb]

65. vegetarianism is not for everyone

I do not function well on a low-protien diet. I am on effexor and with all SSRI/psyc meds for depression, they only work with enough serotonin in the brain. High quality protien is necessary to produce the serotonin.

Hubby is on dialysis. The foods he is allowed to eat are extremely limited. Dialysis patients must eat a low-sodium, low-potassium, low-phosphorus diet. They are instructed to eat moderate amounts of high quality protien (meats) and actually are discouraged from considering a vegetarian diet. The usual elements of a non-meat diet are all quite high in phosphorus, which cannot be removed from the body by dialysis. As a result, patients are instructed to take a phosphorus-blocker (usually Tums) before each meal, as well as avoiding phosphorus-containing foods.

some high phosphorus foods: all dried beans, potatoes, tomatoes, soy, bananas, peaches, melons, leafy green vegetables, milk products.

[LWolf]

68. Ok.

I'm neither a vegan, nor a vegetarian. I've long thought that if my blood sugar could handle it, I'd be vegetarian. My system cannot depend on soy as a primary protein source.

I don't know if it is more natural; I love my cats, and don't judge them for their intense hunting, or presenting me with their "treasures." Yet I don't want to kill, myself. The only things I'll willingly kill are flies, cockroaches, aphids, and other garden pests. I kill aphids by making sure my garden has plenty of predators, and I knock them off plants with my garden hose. I kill tomato worms by picking them off and tossing them to my chickens. I let the chickens take care of most of the rest themselves.

I have a revulsion for the way modern meat is raised. Meat as mass production, with the inevitable confinement, antibiotics, genetically modified feed, etc.. seems unethical to me. I guess having lived my life with animals large and small, I think of them as other living things, not meat. The quality of their life matters. I value other species as much as my own.

I also don't think of hunting as "sport." I don't see the entertainment value in killing. Killing for meat, ok. As long as we're eating it, it has to be killed. If the killing can be done without terror or torture.

So here I am on 6 acres, with a flock of chickens, and plenty of pasture. I could raise more chickens to eat, but I can't. When they run up to greet me, follow me around, and trust me to provide, I can't kill them. The same for any other domestic animal. It's a dilemma I've never resolved.

[annabanana]

69. Dear OP, Are you having a boring day? Looking to stir the pot?

:rofl:

[KnowerOfLogic]

70. Lots of things are natural; some are wrong. it's pretty easy. nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

72. Right. So you went to that other thread and criticized it for being

purposely divisive. And you post this thread!


Pot: Meet kettle!

[JohnnyCougar]

173. Have you added anything to this discussion at all?

What has been your main point on this thread?

The other thread was disgusting...people were swearing at each other, disrespecting each other...it was as terrible as I have ever seen on DU.

This thread is on a divisive topic, yes. There is nothing wrong with posting about divisive topics, as long as the arguments are counducted in a dignified manner, and they don't break down into calling each other the enemy, and "full of shit" like the other thread. I know you are smart enough to tell the difference.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

182. This question has been posed a million times before.

I've argued the same points again and again and again. Im sick of having to defend my lifestyle to people who claim that vegetarians are hostile to their meateating ways and that THAT is why they dislike vegetarians.

This thread so far has turned out well. And you seem to have honestly meant to invite diverse discussion. So why the flamebait title?

[JohnnyCougar]

183. But nobody claimed that vegetarians were hostile.

Certain vegetarians are more hostile than others, as with any sub-population. But I would never agree that vegetartians as a whole are a hostile group.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

184. Well then, I apologize.

I have become too accustomed to the same tired old meanness. I guess I saw meanness when there was none. I am sorry.

[JohnnyCougar]

185. Fine then....let's talk about quarks!

Actually, my uncle just published a book on Weak Scale Supersymmetry.

[Hello_Kitty]

74. If we went back to our ancestral diets, we'd be a lot better off

That includes meat, but also a lot of plants, roots, and nuts. No dairy and very little grain. I'd have a difficult time with it, though. This modern gal loves her ice cream ;)

[The Whiskey Priest]

75. T-bone, Prime Rib I love meat

I suppose that is the reason for the cannine teeth. Of course we should realize that we are at the top-of-food chain by grace of technology. Otherwise, some of us would have been entree for a saber-tooth tiger.

[Cleita]

76. Actually, as omnivores, we can eat meat, but will

survive quite well without it. Studies have shown that vegetarians often live longer than meat eaters. Our physiology evolved to eat meat occasionally not exclusively. In most hunter gatherer societies, it's the gatherers who provide the mainstay diet of plant food and the hunter's bounty is an extra bonus.

When we eat meat at every meal, it raises our cholesterol and animal fat even from the leanest animals clogs our arteries.

[Odin2005]

102. My understanding is...

...The colder the climate and longer the winters, the more important meat is in traditional diets, like the host on a Discovery Channel show on human evolution said, "where the winters are frozen, you either hunt well, or you die."

[Cleita]

106. True. I believe this is why we developed the ability to hunt

and digest meat because of ice ages, but our teeth are not the teeth of carnivores. Look at grazers like horses or deer and they have little square teeth like we do, not fangs, so we obviously evolved from a vegetarian species.

Also, even traditional people who keep herds, usually use the products of the live animals like milk and wool and only slaughter them for food either for celebration and in certain seasons. So meat is not an everyday staple with them.

I think only eskimos and other indigenous people who live near the North Pole live on a 90% animal diet.

[Arugula Latte]

78. Enjoy those clogged arteries.

:eyes:

[The Whiskey Priest]

82. I know traffic is just hell these days

It takes hours to get to work.

[yewberry]

84. Eat what you want, but enough with the endless criticism.

Okay, sure, fine, I'm defying human nature and evolution, and failing to do my duty as part of the earth. My taste buds are faulty and I don't know what's good for me. Ethics have no place in the choices I make, because big cats don't bother with such trivialities. I'm inscrutable, and while some veg*ns are worthy of respect, others are bad cooks and milquetoasts who eat horribly bland food.

Also, we stole the Lindbergh baby and shot JR.

That about cover it? Can we stop now?

[Lorien]

95. Pure unadulterated flame bait. n/y

[Neil Lisst]

109. It doesn't matter what you eat. Humans are omnivores.

The argument advanced by some that we are not designed to find, kill, and eat meat is simply not true. We have a history as a species, and that history is as an omnivore, not as vegetarian or vegan.

I've no problem with people eating whatever they want. I don't care if you eat nothing but animal products, or nothing but veggies and fruits. Eating one doesn't make you any better, any more moral, than the other. Animals consuming animals to gain their daily intake of nutrition is part of life, and we are animals.

If we weren't designed to eat meat we wouldn't be able to digest it.

I'm fine with people choosing not to eat meat or animal products, but don't tell me it's a moral decision. It's a dietary and social decision.

It's not what we eat that kills us. It's not getting up and getting enough activity. You can drink cow blood every day if you work like a Masai warrior.

[flvegan]

111. Want v. need.

Humans WANT to eat meat, but they don't NEED to. That's the difference.

You summed it up in your thread title. They taste good.

When want overrides desire to abstain from supporting cruelty, it's a selfish act.

The only post you'll get from me to this flamebait post.

[OnionPatch]

112. I'm not vegetarian but

I eat very little meat.

The reasons are not because I do or don't think it's good for you. I think it's pretty obvious we are omnivores and are meant to eat some meat but lots of veggies, but the main reason I don't eat much meat is: Factory Farms. I just feel it's unethical to raise animals in the horrible, wretched conditions they are raised in on factory farms and on top of that, it's ruining the environment in two horrible ways: 1. The LAKES of animals urine and waste that accumulate in the factory farms and leach into the local water. 2. the rainforest is being destroyed at an alarming rate to grow food for all these meat animals that we eat so much of.

I have no problem with simply eating meat. It's our ways of doing so that are pretty messed up in my opinion. I like to eat free-range and grass-fed animals that are raised ethically without tons of hormones and antibiotics. I also like to eat meat my husband hunts (or fishes) but he only hunts animals that are abundant, like deer. Also, I don't usually serve big chunks of meat on its own but work it into recipes that don't use such huge amounts of it, like spaghetti, chili, fajitas, stews, etc.

[Cleita]

115. I have taken chicken off my diet until the

processing plants implement a humane way to kill them.
Boiling the birds alive to kill them is just wrong and I won't spend my money on such an industry.

[Kali]

129. buy from a grower

see just below.

oh heck here its still "copied" in my magical clicking mouse!

http://www.eatwild.com/index.html

[JohnnyCougar]

117. Now this is a position I can understand...

I don't really like supporting those kinds of farms, either. I wonder if there is a way of telling how the meat was raised before you buy it. Of course, free-range meat is probably too expensive for me now. But later when I have money I might want to start buying that wherever they sell it, and IF they sell it.

[Kali]

127. check this out

http://www.eatwild.com/index.html

It does tend to be more expensive, but if you can develop a relationship with a grower near you you may save by buying in bulk. First investment for healthy meat eating? A freezer!

[karlrschneider]

123. Mmmmm....okay now I gotta get a t-bone from the freezer!

:D

[expatriot]

128. I'm not responsible for a lion's actions, but I am for my own.

You cannot use "it is our nature" as the reason why you choose to eat animals. There is a growing percentage of our society choosing to go vegetarian.

Furthermore, you cannot use the "is it unethical for a lion to chase down a gazelle?" argument. Some mothers in the animal kingdom eat many of their offspring. So would you use the argument "Is it unethical for a komodo dragon to eat their own young?" in defense of human mother who killed and canibalized her own children.

I am not responsible for the behavior of the lion but I am responsible for my own actions and, as a member of human society, I have the right and obligation to take an active role in the moral progress of our society.

While a majority of vegans believe that humans are physiologically herbivores, I personally believe we are omnivores (our eyes are placed at the front of our skull, for one).

But we as a society and as social beings become more complex, I see it as a growing chasm between ourselves and our "carnivorous demons." As our food production has become more and more intensive, animal agriculture makes less and less sense from an environmental and economic standpoint (see below). As our understanding of nutrition grows, the risks of abstaining from meat lessens as we know what and how to make substitutions (b12, essential fatty acids, etc.) And as our scientific understanding of animal behavior grows, we realize that they experience many of the same raw emotions that we do. It is about compassion. There are so many substitutes available that how can I continue eating it when the only reason to do so was the selfish "I like the taste," or "it's more convenient." When I finally asked myself that question, I knew I had to stop eating meat. I relapsed a lot that first year. The second year I did not lapse at all and then I went vegan.
Environment (yes we are duty-bound to the earth, but not in the way you spoke oof.

It used to be when we hunted and then later herders, the animals we kept did not compete directly for the same food resources that we did. Now, with intensive animal agriculture they do. Somewhere between 60-80% of the crops grown in this country go to feed livestock. 90% of the soy grown in this country goes to feed livestock and a huge percentage of the Amazon being clear cut is being done so for beef ranches and soy crops to feed the beef. It takes at least 450 gallons of potable water (and has been argued much as 2,500 gallons) to produce 1 lb. of beef for the market.

http://www.earthsave.org/environment/water.htm

Then there is more fossil fuels used to produce meat for market than plants, the arguments go on and on. I got to run for now.

[MisterP]

130. a lot of people say, "we're the superior species, so there's no need to

act like it"; no higher standards, but infinite privileges and excuses

[MrSlayer]

133. Yes, they do.

I just had a nice new york strip.

[expatriot]

136. would you like a medal?

I have noticed that when confronted with the vegetarian alternative, meat-eaters take some sort of pride in eating meat. Like a couple of co-workers the other day, that upon finding out that I and another co-worker were vegan: one turned to the other and said "If it don't moo, it ain't food!" then they gave eachother hi fives like, "yeah! look at us! we eat meat! we so cool!" I see similar bravado and chest-pounding. Having such pride in being part of an "exclusive club" that only includes 95% of Americans confuses me.

On these threads there are always posters who are about to have or just had a nice, big juicy steak. Very few people say "Yes, they do. I just had two helpings of Hamburger Helper" or "Yes they do. I just had a nice McDonald's Quarter Pounder with Cheese on the ride home from work."

[MrSlayer]

138. Yes, I would like a medal. Shaped like a Porterhouse and made of gold.

I am the King of the Meat Eaters!

I really did have a nice New York strip tonight. I wouldn't lie about that. And I never eat McDonald's.

What's the big deal? The guy said animals taste good and I agreed. I didn't bash vegans or anything.

[expatriot]

139. you're right. you didn't deserve that response. you were the straw

that broke the camels back. If you look up at some of the earlier responses you can see definite signs of this bravado I speak of, I should have responded to their posts.

[MrSlayer]

140. That's ok.

I don't see why eating meat would make you superior to people who do not either. A strange mentality indeed.

[JohnnyCougar]

141. Stranger yet that no one on this thread ever claimed that.

It's a mystery to me as to how anyone got that idea.

Most vegans don't usually have this "I'm morally superior to meat-eaters" mentality, either. But there are always exceptions.

[expatriot]

156. No one in this thread came out and said "I am morally superior to vegans"

and I never said that they did. I was referring to a kind of bravado type of pride and fellowship that SOME meat-eaters will tend to take when confronted with the vegetarian alternative, like the example cited in my post. Here is a post that shows a little machismo "carnivore pride." I psychologist may see it as being defensive and so people have to go overboard to defend their behavior.


54. Hell Yeah We Are Meat Eaters! Gimme Steak Babyyyyy!!!!

Give me a big fat juicy fucking 30 oz steak to chomp my teeth into. Of course we are meat eaters. We are omnivores. I mean, if someone wants to be a vegan to each their own, but while they're chompin on their tofu my ass will be chompin on a big fat juicy fuckin steak!!!!



Most vegans don't usually have this "I'm morally superior to meat-eaters" mentality, either.

Actually, most of us do. The ones of us who are animal rights activists, anyway. That's why we are activists. We are like one of the apostles with this moral revelation that we feel we gotta evangelize the rest of the world with.

In all seriousness, although it may sound like we think we are all better than meat-eaters, we don't forget the fact that we, too, were meat-eaters (read "heathens" for the whole apostle analogy).

Hell, when my wife and I started dating nine years ago she would roast us up each a cornish hen every weekend. I had the beef and she had the chicken at our own wedding. She decided to go vegetarian on Thanksgiving Day of 2002 and I reluctantly followed. I relapsed often the first year, meanwhile she went vegan and hardcore PETA over the next couple years. I got the vegetarian thing down but wasn't down with PETA until 9-12 months ago. now we are a hardcore peta vegan couple and our courtship began over two dead, lemon pepper-bathed cornish hens a weekend. And I was on a university campus with the "opportunity" to be affected by the animal rights movement all around me. It just didn't click. In fact, now that I think about it. I was one of these people I am bitching about. I remember my favorite meal at the dining center was hot wing night. I killed so many birds there. I would eat plate after plate of hot wings and my roommate and I would joke, "Plants aren't food, plants are what food eats." I once was lost, but now am found... was blind but now I see. yada yada yada.

on edit: one more thing, I spent many years of my childhood on an Iowa farm. My parents weren't farmers, but we rented a farmhouse just outside of town and the farm was still in full operation. DId some farm work when I was in high school. Delivered papers in middle school early mornings on a route that went right past the auction yards.... heard pitiful moans and cries from there nearly every other day. To think it wouldn't be for more than ten years that I heard the word "downers" but when I did , and when I saw the video... it all came back... everything clicked.

http://www.goveg.com/feat/chewonthis/

[JohnnyCougar]

171. Perhaps this answers your question about why meat-eaters act defensive

Most vegans don't usually have this "I'm morally superior to meat-eaters" mentality, either.

Actually, most of us do. The ones of us who are animal rights activists, anyway. That's why we are activists. We are like one of the apostles with this moral revelation that we feel we gotta evangelize the rest of the world with.

Do you think this might cause some of us omnivores to be defensive?

[AgadorSparticus]

142. eat what you want. i could give a shit. but i've had some really

bland and crappy meat dishes too. good food is good food. and bad food is everywhere...much like opinions.

[Ilsa]

144. I'm sick of this shit w/ people who want to pick at vegans and vegetarians

I've been a vegetarian less than six months and I love it! I've never felt better. It'll be a cold day in hell before I go back to eating the way I used to. If you want to know about why vegetarians eat the way they do, why don't you pick up a book and inform yourself before insinuating there is something unnatural about their lifestyle.

[Obamarama]

146. Holy pork chop, Batman...you could roast a whole pig on these flames!! n/t

[MN ChimpH8R]

151. Humans evolved to be omnivores

and our caveman ancestors doubtless ate everything from bugs to plants to fungi and mammoths and birds or anything else that they could kill without it killing them first. Many animals taste good. So do a lot of vegetables. So balance the two sensibly - I had a big caesar salad with some seared lean steak topping it for dinner tonight. :9

[upi402]

157. don't get it? no problem

Maybe read "Diet for a Small Planet" -ancient but good
:toast:

[expatriot]

158. a free dvd is more tempting, perhaps....

http://www.goveg.com/feat/chewonthis/

[upi402]

159. LOL,Yep, this one always got me...

" If you’re eating meat, you are paying others to commit acts so cruel that if committed against dogs or cats, they would warrant felony cruelty charges in most U.S. states."

from 30 reasons to go veggie via your link

[wickerwoman]

162. I think most scientists say we evolved as scavengers.

Our teeth are evolved to scoop marrow out of carrion bones not to bring down a gazelle.

I'm a happy omnivore- I'll eat anything. There's a street in Beijing where you can get barbecued cockroach, cricket, silkworm, you name it. I was all over it.

We're designed to eat meat but in nothing like the quantities most Americans actually do. We're not really designed to sit down to a 16 oz steak day after day after day. I think that's where the health problems set in.

If people feel a strong moral need to avoid killing, I can respect that (although I think plants are alive too so I'm not sure where you draw the line.) I agree that the meat industry is cruel and corrupt (although I think you can still eat organic meat or use it very rarely.)

What I don't get is the "real men don't eat veggies" bullshit. We've linked masculinity and dangerous eating habits in a really bizarre way in our culture. In most other cultures, meat is nice, but it's a seasoning. In America, it's a staple. You prove you're a man by the absurd size of your sausage. In the house where I grew up, dinner was a huge steak, or half a chicken and maybe a little baked potato on the side. No wonder I was exhausted and depressed all the time. The men in my family subscribe to the "only weenies eat tofu" school of nutritional science. I think it's really sad the way they limit themselves. There's a pretty strong probability my dad won't live to see his grandkids, but I guess it's worth it not to be a "girlie man." :eyes:

[G_j]

167. a well thought out post

and yes it is true that for the most part you will find meat supplementing a meal in other parts of the world. It is fairly rare to find people throwing big slabs of meat on their plates.
I suppose it is typical in general for Americans to over indulge in many different things.

I also find some attitudes rather amusing, especially since I moved to the south, though I don't take offense and don't try to convert anyone.
Tell someone down here you are a vegetarian and they look at you like they can't believe you're not dead! I worked on a construction crew for a while here and they initially laughed at me at lunch time. After a week realising I could keep up with the best them, lift heavy shit etc., forgot about all that.
On second thought maybe I came from Mars!

peace

[lynne]

165. Agree 100% ! Our canine teeth tell us we are meant to eat meat!

And I make sure I get my share! I don't know why that seems so unpopular at DU. I mean, it is the DEMOCRATIC Underground, not the VEGETARIAN Underground, right?

[Crunchy Frog]

169. It seems to me that not eating meat

gets more flack on this board than eating it does, starting with the OP. People need to spend less time worrying about what other people eat. This "debate" here is about as phoney as the "war on Christmas". Everybody should eat what they like, and not worry so much about what other people are or are not eating.

For the record, primates tend to have large canines, even though they mostly are not meat eaters. Gorillas have far bigger canines than we do, and they don't eat any meat at all. I would therefore be cautious about placing too much weight on our teeth as evidence of what we're "supposed" to eat.

[rainy]

166. Once and for all: Meat eating causes most of all human illnesses

Heart disease: not possible for non meat eaters as the arteries cannot become clogged on natural plant foods. This means skipping the middle isles in the grocery stores too. Statistics state that only 3percent of heart disease comes from heredity. The rest all diet related.

Cancer: Cancer cannot grow in a alkaline body. Meat is acid forming in the body. Meat robs the bones of calcium which is the great neutralizer. Calcium reduces the acid in the body. When you eat meat your body has to give up it's stored calcium to balance to alkaline. This is why meat eaters get osteoporosis and non meat eaters do not.

Finally in the other threads people mention that Chimps and gorillas eat some meat. Remember that they eat it raw getting all of their nutrition from the LIVE CELLS in the LIVE animal. DEAD MEAT is deadly.

[Crunchy Frog]

179. Once the cells are eaten, they are dead, believe me.

The only "live" cells that you are getting from raw meat are those of bacteria and parasites. Bon apetit.


Also, please see this other post of mine, since I was unable to respond to a post of yours in the other thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5563567&mesg_id=5573329

[sadinred]

175. the remarkable thing about humans is that we have the ability to

think about what we're eating and we have the ability to empathize with what we are eating. Whether we as individuals do or not is up to us.

It's not eating meat that bothers me, it's how they're raised and killed. I choose not to be part of that, well I try everyday anyway.

How do feel about people who eat dogs? Is that okay? If not then what is the difference in your mind?

[sendero]

178. This whole argument is so tedious and useless..

.... filled with half-truths on either side.

If you don't like meat, don't eat it. I believe in freedom, and that freedom includes my right to decide what the eff I'm going to nourish myself with.

And for the record, I'm one of those folks with a naturally fast metabolism. I have to eat a boatload of protein and calories to maintain my weight, which I like at 175-180 lbs. If I gave up meat, I'd have to resign myself to weighing 140 again. Ain't gonna happen :)

[jeffrey_X]

180. "It is in our nature to eat animals." Actually it's not....

If you were stranded on a desert island and had to chose between eating a day old dead rabbit and apples or organes in a bucket washed up on shore, which are you going to choose? EVERY OTHER carnivore and omnivore one the planet is going to eat the rabbit. Humans are going to eat the fruit.

It maybe a choice to eat meat....but it is certainly not our nature.