How in the hell are the "Minutemen" allowed to do what they are doing?

[Reverend_Smitty]

The federal government is in essence allowing RW nutjobs in conjunction with white supremacists to run around the southwest declaring open hunting season on people!!! How many people are going to have to die before these lunatics stopped? This whole thing reminds me of the short story "The Most Dangerous Game" where the hunter grows tired of hunting animals and begins hunting people.

And furthermore, how dare they take the name Minutemen?!? This whole situation is just wrong!

[John BigBootay]

1. What laws are they breaking? n/t

[Reverend_Smitty]

4. none until someone gets killed...

and thats a matter of when not if

[Zuni]

8. I doubt that

they aren't there to shoot anyone. As weird as these people are, they are being watched by the FBI, The ACLU and tons of other groups 24/7.
If they murder someone, their cause is ruined.

[Walt Starr]

11. I'm calling BULLSHIT on your post

The assumption that somebody WILL get shot no matter what is false on its face.

This is not a nation where people are imprisoned because fo crimes they MIGHT commit. That was common in Nazi Germany and the Stalinist Soviet Union, but we are free here.

[phantom power]

Some things are certain, pragmatically speaking.

I don't think anybody should be arrested until they break a law. But that doesn't change the fact that this kind of movement *always* gets out of hand. It's just a matter of time.

They are free to pursue this if they choose, but it's a fiasco waiting to happen.

[Walt Starr]

26. Strawman, you built it up to knock it down

Sorry, but that argument does not hold water. You've stated emphatically that this will ALWAYS lead to violence and that statement is false on its face.

[phantom power]

44. Sure, it's logically uncertain.

No prediction is logically certain until it happens.

I'm saying it's pragmatically certain. Even though it's technically possible that nobody will get killed from this, it won't turn out that way.

If you believe otherwise, I can't logically prove you wrong. But events will prove you wrong.

[Walt Starr]

45. And I say events will prove you wrong

It simply will not happen because they know it would destroy their cause if it DID happen.

[phantom power]

53. I hope you're right.

All I see is a recipe for disaster: A bunch of vigilantes, many carrying guns, on the border between two countries, out looking for illegal immigrants, some of whom are escorted by Coyotes, who are also carrying guns (and who aren't motivated to avoid using them).

Somebody's going to have an encounter, and things will get out of hand. In the heat of the moment, nobody is going to be strategizing about "damaging the cause", they are going to be in fight-or-flight mode.

And that's making the generous assumption that all of the Minutemen remain genuinely committed to non-violence. How long do you think it will be before the racist nut-cases show up? In fact, I saw on the local news that some of them are already showing up. The founder of the Minutemen is committed to keeping these people out, but nobody bats 1000, no matter how good their intentions.

Another scenario is that the racist-nutcase faction will simply form their own splinter group, if they lose patience with the whole "non-violence" inconvenience.

[Walt Starr]

46. Delete

dupe

[Power Trowell]

83. Yes I am sure they will get out of hand just as everyone was sure

there would be pograms timed to the release of "The Passion of the Christ"

[phantom power]

103. Pogroms is a new one on me.

In my view of human nature, those two examples aren't very comparable. Releasing a movie is not sufficient to instigate a pogrom. Sounds like an urban legend.

On the other hand, groups of vigilantes with guns, in a tense environment, is more than sufficient to instigate a gun-fight.

[Power Trowell]

112. Not an urban legend - check the DU threads from last year

Violence against Jews was widely predicted as a reaction to the releasing of Passion. Sort of the white racist fat, beer driniking trigger happy old minuteman meme now going around

And not just at DU:

ex:

http://passion-movie.gnfi.org/html/anti-semitism.html

I asked Foxman if he believed that Gibson was an anti-Semite. “Per se, I don't think that Mel Gibson is anti-Semitic,” Foxman said. “I think that he is insensitive.”

But what of “The Passion of the Christ” itself, I asked. Is the film anti-Semitic? “The film, per se, is not anti-Semitic,” Foxman said. The problem, he added, was that, as with any literal reading of the New Testament, its message of love could be twisted into something hateful. “The film can fuel, trigger, stimulate, induce, rationalize, legitimize anti-Semitism,” Foxman said.

[AValdoux]

50. This is a nation....

where you can be imprisoned for a crime you might commit. You can't be tried and convicted in a court of law but you can be detained indefinitly with no formal charges or legal representation.

AValdoux

[Walt Starr]

69. Actually, that's not precisely true

although it is being tested with the Patriot Act.

[mopinko]

78. sorta

people are arrested in stings when they set up meetings with what they think are minors that might have sex with them.
there are many things that are illegal to "attempt".

[Walt Starr]

132. If they showed up, they committed a crime

It's that simple. Intent has been proven in those cases.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

174. No, it's a nation in which people are

refused entrance to political events because of actions they MIGHT commit (if they've got the wrong bumpersticker).

We are frei here.

[John BigBootay]

16. So you'd like Federal intervention

when there is only the POSSIBILITY of law-breaking?

If that was the case, then NOTHING would be permitted in this society and you'd be crying that it was a friggin' police state.

[Power Trowell]

80. I will take your concerns about the trouble Minutemen could cause

with the same grain of salt I used when reading on DU about the coming pograms which would be timed with the release of "The Passion of the Christ"

[candy]

2. No laws have been broken----yet!

[ixion]

3. indeed... imagine a tweaked scenario

say that environmentalists were patroling the roads looking for trucks crossing the border that didn't meet EPA standards.

Who thinks they'd be catching all sorts of flak from the Powers the Be, hmmmm?

[John BigBootay]

6. Try it and find out! n/t

[DoNotRefill]

141. As long as they weren't stopping the trucks....

that would be legal. What the Law Enforcement response would be is another matter, since trucks travel much faster than people on foot.

[slackmaster]

5. Because they aren't violating any laws

Anything that is not specifically prohibited is allowed.

...declaring open hunting season on people!!! How many people are going to have to die before these lunatics stopped?

Hunting people is illegal AFAIK. If they kill someone other than in self-defense they will be charged with murder.

What is your source of information for this claim?

[7th_Sephiroth]

14. LOOK OUT, HE'S CHARGEING

we have to lessen thier numbers so they dont overpopulate and starve </jimbo>

[Sequoia]

18. Maybe the source of information is knowing that these lard butts

might be drinking too much Bud and go off half-cocked. Not to mention how they're "protecting Amerika against them terroristiz from Mexico." A lot of the news crews have packed up, no story there, just a bunch of middle-aged overweight white dudes in lawn chairs smoking cigars.

[Walt Starr]

20. so you are now advocating a police state?

Only police states imprison people based upon a presumption of guilt for crimes they MIGHT commit.

[Reverend_Smitty]

23. who said anything about imprisioning them?

hell even bounty hunters need to register with the government to do their jobs

[Walt Starr]

29. So now you advocate citizens registering with the government

in order to report a crime? That's even worse than a police state!

[Reverend_Smitty]

35. no but...

groups that act as an "arm of the law" should have some regulation. These people have no proper training in carrying out these kinds of activities. Bounty hunters have to take a training course and learn standard operating procedures before they are allowed to do their job. This is done to ensure the safety of both parties.

[Walt Starr]

38. THEY ARE NOT ACTING AS AN ARM OF THE LAW ANY MORE THAN YOU OR I!!

They are acting as citizens. When they view a law being broken, they report it to the appropriate authorities.

No matter how much you don't like them or the fact that they want existing immigation laws enforced, they are acting 100% within the law.

[DoNotRefill]

142. How much training is necessary....

to use a cellphone to call the cops???

Do you support mandatory cellphone training for everybody before they can buy one? how about waiting periods and background checks for cellphones?

[Snivi Yllom]

72. key point: bounty hunting is LEGAL

and they actually detain individuals.

[slackmaster]

39. Their purpose is to increase public awareness of border issues

As long as they don't do anything illegal I think they are performing a valuable service.

The moment one of them assaults or injures or kills someone I'll be all over their case "like ugly on a ape".

[porphyrian]

7. The goverment won't properly fund border protection.

The border's too big, the debt's record-breaking and the job is shitty. Cops they manage to trick into joining the border patrol are just as likely to leave once they realize they're mostly just sitting in a truck watching the desert each shift. Those "minutemen" are more likely to shoot each other than any immigrants.

[Walt Starr]

9. Wow, some people got shot?

If not, then what they are doing is 100% wihtin the law, regardless of what you think about it.

[Snivi Yllom]

10. it's like a Neighborhood Watch

but it's well armed, and it's a bigger neighborhood

potential for disaster here is huge, but it seems 100% legal as long as those participating obey the law.

[rinsd]

17. Obeying the law is the key.....

...and the people in charge of this seem keenly aware how illegal activity or god forbid some tradegy would sink their cause in a heartbeat.

Whether that prevents anything from happening remains to be seen.

[AgadorSparticus]

129. some people in neighborhoods are armed too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. The moment they break a law we can talk

for the moment they are just becoming an annoyance... as they are triggering sensors

Now if enough sensors are triggered (to the point hte border patrol gets beyond annoyed) they can possibly go to a judge and ask for a restraining order. they can get it since they are interfering with the work of a police officer. So I am hoping that the BP will go to the judge on those grounds... before they go into felony territory

[KurtNYC]

13. A report from the front...

Not far away, the Minutemen radios were filled with excited chatter about an illegal immigrant in the area. Gilchrist drove up to an outpost, flung open the car door and shouted, "Who saw the illegal aliens?"

A tall Minuteman approached. "There are no illegals, those are our people," he said. The "immigrant" was in fact 67-year-old Dave Gessner of Fort Wayne, Ind.

"I was just answering the call of nature," he said sheepishly. "Guess I won't wander off anymore."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-minuteman5apr05,0,4428094.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Another part of the article talks with a family who choose the vigilante patrols for their "vacation." Twisted stuff.

[DoNotRefill]

143. Imagine that....

they saw a white guy taking a leak and thought he was an illegal immigrant...

[Dogmudgeon]

15. It's all a lot of huffing and puffing

Most of them are doing "Community Watch" style work -- just reporting what they see. They know the risk is high and don't want to destroy their cause because somebody gets trigger-happy.

It's strictly a feel-good exercise. They feel weak and afraid, and this is one of the ways they can feel like they're doing something that matters.

--p!

[Deep13]

19. That's not what is happening.

Some of these people may be racists or whatever, though for now that is just a rumor. Nevertheless, their complaints are entirely justified. The government is colluding with big business to allow illegal immigration for cheap labor. This devalues American labor and law and order generally. I don't see how wanting a secure border immediately makes one a rascist. The government did not exactly invite these self-appointed minutemen. Nevertheless, if the southern border is a sieve for illegal aliens, why can't these other people walk around there. As far as I know, that is all they are doing. After all, the government sure as hell has demonstrated its inability to solve the problem.

[seventythree]

25. agree

I am disturbed that they are bing allowed to carry legal firearms. I think that should have been verboten -- there is no need, unless you are shooting rattlers. That having been said -- it is good and healthy to know that if the government won't take the necessary action to control the borders, the people will -- and are still allowed to, more importantly.

[Walt Starr]

30. Arizona has a carry law

Don't like it? Change the Arizona law.

1,000,000,000,000,000,000 : 1 says you'd never even get a hearing in an Arizona legislature committee.

[seventythree]

87. even though carrying weapons in Az is legal,

(obviously I knew that) those who put together the minutemen could have banned them from carrying them for this volunteer effort. If something bad should happen, it will destroy what they are trying to do, which I think has merit.

[Balbus]

93. They did ban rifles,

but not sidearms. They being the minutemen organizers.

[seventythree]

99. guess that is what I heard, too

They said no "long arms."

[Reverend_Smitty]

21. Just heard on AAR news...

that the minutemen are now unwittingly setting off alarms and sending out border patrol agents where there is no activity

[Walt Starr]

22. Shows how effective those alarms are

Why couldn't a coyote set one off?

[Snivi Yllom]

28. im more concerned we have to rely on alarms

to keep the borders safe. Something is wrong when the nation's defense is tripped up by a misfiring ADT alarm.

[TheWraith]

33. They're probably set to trigger at a certain weight

Say, 50 pounds and up. It's the logical way to reduce false alarms without making the sensors less effective.

[rinsd]

43. I doubt they're using pressure sensors for the border....

...it is more likely to be motion sensors.

[Walt Starr]

47. which means a jack rabbit could set them off

:eyes:

[rinsd]

63. Found some stuff....

This article alludes to "underground" sensors but doesn;t have more info.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-02-22-border-patrol_x.htm

This article tells about vibration sensors but I think this is a private group

http://www.americanpatrol.com/FEATURES/030723-KUAT-ABP-SENSOR-STORY/030723_Feature.html

Here's even more info which discusses seismic, magnetic & infrared sensors.

http://www.gcn.com/vol19_no3/news/1278-1.html

They use them in combination with cameras so I imagine they don;t fall for the coyote too often.

[Snivi Yllom]

73. if they had cameras, they would see the MM sitting there watching

obviously not groups sneaking Northward

[rinsd]

116. Maybe, maybe not....

Its probably alot easier to differentiate between animal & human than illegal vs. minuteman.

[Walt Starr]

24. They are "allowed" to do what they're doing because it's 100% LEGAL

"Why are DUers now advocates for a police state?" is a better question.

[Toots]

40. When a mob starts to form it is the duty and responsibility of law enforce

enforcement officers to break it up. I am not saying they have become a mob...yet.. but to stop one is not a police state.. It is common sense.

[Walt Starr]

48. First amendment time

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

To date, this is a peaceful assembly. There are no civil codes for an urban area to take into consideration here as they are not in a city, town, or village. That means they do not need a permit. That further means that trying to stop them from exercising their constitutionally guaranteed rights is despotic.

[Malva Zebrina]

27. Minutemen doesn't sound as bad as "militia"

It is just a moniker, a marketing tool, they use to give a patriotic sounding sanction to what they are doing--volunteering to patrol the border to prevent illegal entry,-- although, it is not beyond the imagination that they could also turn up somewhere in the north at the Canadian/US border to prevent AWOL soldiers from escaping to Canada. :o

Militia sounds more like it to me.

[Bonhomme Richard]

31. I think Minutmen refers to their sexual stamina. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

49. My opinion exactly....

If they're lucky.

[Snivi Yllom]

32. Do you think's it's illegal or insane for border agents to "hunt" illegals

Because that's what border agents do patroling the border. They hunt illegal immigrants.

[Walt Starr]

34. And cops go on "manhunts" all the time!

;)

[TheWraith]

37. Border Patrol and the police are empowered by law to do their jobs.

The 'Minutemen' have no legal authorization, no chain of command, and no oversight. While it's not illegal for them to do this, I'd encourage you not to compare them to professional law enforcement officers, who generally despise exactly this kind of half-assed near-vigilantism because of the additional danger and difficulty it adds for them.

[Walt Starr]

41. They have 100% legal authorization for what they are doing

Any citizen is 100% within their rights to be on the border. Any citizen is 100% within their rights to report a crime in progress.

There is nothing whatsoever illegal about what they are doing. NOTHING.

[TX-RAT]

58. Are the MM on private property or BLM?

[Snivi Yllom]

71. I read some of the MM were invited to use the property

of those living near the border. They are so fed up with illegal immigrants running through their private property.

[TheWraith]

100. They have no legal authority.

You're confusing their right to go and observe with being legally empowered as law enforcement. They have every right to sit on the border if they want, or to phone the police if they see something illegal, but it doesn't make them law enforcement officers, and it doesn't permit them to act as if they were law enforcement, which is what the person I replied to was suggesting. They said that the Minutemen were doing the exact same thing as the Border Patrol, which is incorrect. The Minutemen don't have any authority to make arrests, and they are nowhere near being law enforcement. What worries me is that they seem to think otherwise.

[theboss]

120. If they confront an illegal, I would take a different stance

Though everyone technically has the power to make a "citizen's arrest," though you are really exposing yourself to liability if you do that.

[DoNotRefill]

144. they apparently "confronted" a Guatemalan man....

who had been severely beaten and abandoned by a Coyote. Their freakish anti-brown people response? They reportedly gave him food, water, and medical attention after HE approached THEM seeking aid. Oh, the horror...

[TX-RAT]

56. Question

As a land owner, do i have the right to protect my land from trespassers?

Suppose i ask some friends to help?

[TheWraith]

101. Sure.

But these guys don't own the land, which doesn't give them the same legal rights to defend it. And even whoever owns the land doesn't have carte blanche to do whatever they like with a tresspasser, nor do they have the same powers as law enforcement officers. It doesn't matter if the Minutement are just reporting as they claim, but their entire attitude speaks of a taste for vigilante justice.

[TX-RAT]

114. (But these guys don't own the land,)

Sounds like the land owners want them there. If it was BLM, that would be different.

(And even whoever owns the land doesn't have carte blanche to do whatever they like with a trespasser, nor do they have the same powers as law enforcement)

Only thing they can do on private land is report them ( at least thats how it is in TX ), they have no powers to detain.

[DoNotRefill]

145. depends on what you do to protect it....

calling the cops is OK, shooting people with sniper rifles isn't.

[TX-RAT]

149. Calling LE is all i can do. ( IN TX)

I have no powers to arrest or detain unless they are committing a felony.

[Snivi Yllom]

70. the Minutemen engage their 'subjects' less than a bounty hunter would

and bounty hunting is legal

[TheWraith]

106. Bounty hunting is also based on two practicalities.

One, legal bounty hunters have some degree of oversight and rules coming from their employers. The Minutemen don't.

Two, legal bounty hunting is based on the principle that the person being hunted has committed a crime. Can you be sure the Minutemen make that distinction? Suppose they see a guy with brown skin near the border. Do they report him to the cops because they're somehow sure he's an illegal? Do they grab him and toss him back over the fence? How exactly are you so sure that they're targeting ONLY the guilty people?

[TX-RAT]

119. Suppose they see a guy with brown skin near the border.

If it's someone the landowner knows or a member of the MM, no problem. If it's not then he would be trespassing.

(Do they report him to the cops because they're somehow sure he's an illegal? )
NO! They report him to the LE because he is trespassing.

(Do they grab him and toss him back over the fence? How exactly are you so sure that they're targeting ONLY the guilty people? )
They can't detain, they can only report.
If hes not with the MM and he's not invited, he's guilty of trespassing.

[John BigBootay]

97. So you're on Bush's side on this one, huh? n/t

[Sequoia]

36. Aliens Spotted!

"But if you threaten to extend your violence, this Earth of yours will be reduced to a burnt out cinder. Your choice is simple. Join us and live in peace or pursue your present course and face obliteration. We shall be waiting for your answer. The decision rests with you." Klaatu

(The Day The Earth Stood Still, 1951. Damn fine movie!)

[tblue37]

42. Has anyone here seen the wonderful movie

A Day without Mexicans?

I am just wondering why no one hs mentioned that movie during all this hype about the Minutemen.

[Felix Mala]

51. It's handy to have a growing, trained force in arms in case you...

...ever want to use it on another segment of the population. Think Praetorian Guard of Rome or Nazi Brownshirts. These "special forces" groups are handy because you, as President, can deny you have any control over them whatsoever. You can even pretend to oppose their actions.

To paraphrase Max in Cabaret: Let them get rid of the illegal aliens, later we'll be able to control them.

I highly recommend you all rent Cabaretso you can get an idea of what we may be in for. Or you can read William Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. Assuming you haven't already.

[rinsd]

55. Think Chavez.....(nt)

[rman]

64. You mean when Chavez supporters were shot by snipers,

and at some point some of them tried to return fire?...

[rinsd]

67. No, I mean the little private army he's creating.....

...via the Venezuelan reserves.

How easily we see the march to war from our point of view(ie: when done by the right) but watching someone buy up arms left and right and claiming imminent invasion while issuing his supporters weaponry we would call it something quite different than what folks prefer to call it (ie: revolution)

[rman]

77. didn't know that, but

The official police force was hardly enough to keep Chavez supporters and anti-Chavez protesters apart when the latter marched on Chavez's palace (thereby violating their protest permit), which was then surrounded by his supporters. The small police force sure could not prevent the snipers bullets from reaching the Chavez supporters.

Also the palace guard that had been left in place by the coup plotters was barely enough to retake the palace. All they had besides their weapons and training was encouragement from hordes of Chavez supporters just outside the palace gates. Not a shot was fired by the way.

Given Chavez's track record i'd be surprised if he'd use his "private army" against the interests of the majority of the Venezuelans.

[rinsd]

115. He doesn't have to use against a majority....

...he is doing so to "defend the revolution". This is akin to Democrats setting up and army to go after anyone disagreeing with the New Deal or Great Society.

Imagine dumbass in chief creating a new national guard but one that seems to draw its recruits only from so called red areas then arming them through federal weapons buys to be called upon if necessary. Would that scare the absolute crap out of you?

But since Chavez is thumbing his nose at dumbass and is a celebrated leftist(I'm not so elated abotu his track record which seems to have more to do with solidfying his own power) every anti-freedom step he takes(and by that I mean freedom like the bill of rights not that other crappola that's on the march) is explained away as necessary.

[barb162]

52. Geez, what have you been reading?

Sitting around on lawn chairs with binoculars and calling border patrol if they see illegals? You make it sound like they are serial murderers. NOT!

[NoPasaran]

54. It sounds like mostly they've been causing trouble for the Migra

Minutemen tripping sensors set out to detect intruders

TOMBSTONE - Volunteers who have converged on the Mexican border to watch for illegal immigrants are disrupting U.S. Border Patrol operations by unwittingly tripping sensors that alert agents to possible intruders, agency officials complained yesterday.

Scores of participants in the Minuteman Project began assembling late last week, and clusters of volunteers began regular patrols yesterday in an exercise some law enforcement authorities and civil rights groups fear will result in vigilante violence. Many of the volunteers were recruited over the Internet, and some planned to be armed.

Over the past few days, they have set off sensors, forcing agents to respond to false alarms, Supervisory Border Patrol Agent Jose Maheda said.

"Now we not only have to look out for aliens and drug smugglers, now we have to look out for these untrained civilians who are unfamiliar with the landscape," Border Patrol spokesman Andy Adame said.

-more-

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=border_news&story_id=040505a4_bordervolunteers

[Catherine Vincent]

57. CSPAN had call-ins and discussions on this minutemen thing this morning.

I didn't get to hear all of it. Half of the calls thought it was a good idea. I don't think I like this.

[WinterStorm]

59. I am totally disgusting in what they are doing

One of them is going to have an "oops" shooting. I think that a bunch of us should go after the minutemen. Testosterone season!

[Walt Starr]

61. So you advocate breaking the law to stop somebody from exercising

their rights?

Damn, that's fucked up right there!

[WinterStorm]

66. I don't advocate a hunting human beings season

I also don't advocate people being starved in this country. We have people going hungry and problems of our own. Killing poor people is not the way to go. We need to shut our boarders but it should be to everyone and not just Mexicans.

[Walt Starr]

68. Um, nobody is killing anybody here. You're blowiong this WAY out of

proportion.

They are sitting on the border observing. When they see somebody violating the law, they report it to the INS.

Now exactly WHAT kind of a problem do you have with that?

[WinterStorm]

82. I get your point

Sorry! We need to start at the Canadian border and work all of the way across if we want to stop everyone from coming in. We have problems in this country and people are going hungry. I don't buy the BS about Americans won't work the jobs.

[Walt Starr]

86. americans won't work the jobs for the wages the illegal aliens get

buit that's secondary (or tertiary or less) to me.

The real issue is, we have immigration laws we are either unwilling or unable to enforce. Logic dictates we change the laws to be enforcable and meaningful.

[WinterStorm]

105. Born again pagan Democrat

:evilgrin:

[Cleita]

60. According to AAR, the Mexican Army is mobilizing on the border.

So are we going to have a border war with Mexico now because of these looney tunes?

What if the Minutemen were African American? Would they be getting the blessings of our government? I think we just have another example of entitled white men throwing their weight around because they can.

[Balbus]

62. I don't think they are getting the blessings of the government..

Bush has repeatedly spoken out against the minutemen and disagrees with what they're doing. And they are more than outspoken themselves against the administration for it's "inaction" towards the illegal immigration problem.

[Cleita]

65. Well, then if he disagrees so much he should be doing something

about it. He has the power. If he has to piss off his KKK base to do the right thing for a change, so be it. But we've always known with Bush that to get votes he has to cater to the lunatic fringe. How does he sleep at night?

[Balbus]

75. What would you have the government do?

As of this post, they haven't done anything illegal for the government to do anything about?

[Cleita]

81. The President needs to inform the Governor of Arizona that

it's his job to diffuse this situation, not sit back and watch it. These people are not a legitimate militia by any means and should be considered armed and dangerous. If the Governor doesn't comply, then he needs to take the next executive step, which is what Presidents do. Of course we have a new species, chimpster incompetensus, in charge now, so I guess we will have a situation. No doubt his good friend Vicente Fox will soon step in and put Boosh in his place.

BTW The mayor of Los Angeles would not tolerate this on the streets of his city and would take action and those militia guys do not want to mess with LA cops. So I think the President has an obligation to get the Governor of Arizona to diffuse the situation.

[Balbus]

89. First of all, the governor of AZ is a she..

as in Janet Napolitano (D). Secondly, neither she nor he (chimp) has any authority under our current federal or state constitution to diffuse a peaceful assembly where no laws have been broken.

But, if it makes you feel a little easier, the federal government has dispatched FBI agents to observe that no federal laws are broken and Governor Napolitona has invited the ACLU (and they've accepted) to be on hand as observers to report any civil liberty violations that may occur. So, yes, at this point they are only sitting back and watching but that's all they're legally able to do.

edit: took out unnecessary quotations marks.

[Cleita]

91. If she is a she and a Democrat then she should be doubly on

top of the situation any way she can. I don't keep up with Arizona politics because I don't give a S***, however, this is a brewing international situaton. There is no way what is going on there is legally acceptable. I'm glad they are observing. They should never have allowed this to happen to begin with. It's so wrong on so many levels. My two cents.

Sorry if I haven't been checking and double checking the last couple of days when I post. I barely am able to as I'm on a load of pain killers and having a hard time concentrating. I thought of looking up who the governor was but it was a big effort and didn't think it was important for what I wanted to say.

[Balbus]

92. Whether you find it acceptable or not,

it is legal. Are you advocating that the government (either Federal or State) step in and break up something that is legal? They are U.S. citizens on U.S. territory, carrying legal firearms, peacefully and legally assembling. What's there to break up?

[Cleita]

95. Are you a lawyer? Are you up on AZ law? Federal law?

How do you know it's legal? If armed men can patrol around in public with guns with no mandate, like from a government militia, let's say the Border Patrol, why can't protesters with signs do the same thing in Washington DC? What is the legal difference?

Is it because the Minutemen have guns? Hey, guys that's the answer. Next time we want to protest the Moron in Chief, let's carry guns. We are protecting our country from HIM.

:banghead::argh:

[Balbus]

98. I can read the constitution.

That's how I know it's legal. The fact that they're carrying guns has nothing to do with it (which is also in the Constitution, by the way). And I never said it was illegal to protest in Washington D.C. or anywhere else for that matter. People have always been allowed to protest across this nation. It's not just confined to southern Arizona.

[Cleita]

107. Yes, yes but those people who are supposed to be upholding

the Constitution are not allowing legal protests in Washington, my point being that no one is acting in a lawful manner here. I guess I'll go get me a little sidearm or something and just walk around town with it slung in my holster (it's legal if it's exposed) and see just how long before I end up in the Graybar Hotel or worse with Homeland Security swooping down on me.

[Balbus]

111. I'm not familiar with what's going on in Washington

But that sounds like a separate issue that someone might want to be bring to the attention of the local representatives there. If you can't walk around the streets where you live without being thrown into jail for doing nothing illegal, that's another issue you might want to bring to your local representative. Neither of which has anything to do with what's going on in southern Arizona at the moment.

[theboss]

117. The gun laws are different

In Arizona, the gun laws are lax. In DC, they are tight.

The Minutemen people are whacky, but haven't broken any laws yet.

[Walt Starr]

134. BINGO!

And that's precisely the point I've been trying to make for several days now!

They are breaking no laws and have broken no laws. Until they do so, there is not thing one that can be done to stop them, but they are highlighting the inadequacy fo current immigration law and enforcement. If progressives do not take the reins and start moving for reform, the regressives will.

[theboss]

135. Hillary! is on the case

She is going to outflank the Republicans on the Right on this issue and confuse the hell out of them come 2008.

[Walt Starr]

136. If she outflanks the Busheviks on this one

she'll win the moderate vote hands down in 2008!

[theboss]

139. Watch her closely; it's what she is trying to do

The Clintons are not dummies. They know the hot button issues and they will grab the high ground on them before anyone else.

[theboss]

118. The gun laws are different

In Arizona, the gun laws are lax. In DC, they are tight.

The Minutemen people are whacky, but haven't broken any laws yet.

[DoNotRefill]

175. Come on, Cleita....

You know or should know that unless a handgun was registered to you in DC by 1976, it's categorically illegal to possess in DC. Now if you want to wear a handgun unconcealed in NoVa, that IS legal in most places, even bars. Courthouses are the primary exception to this law.

[DoNotRefill]

173. Once again....

the gun laws in Arizona and DC differ a fair bit. If you wanted to have an anti-Bush protest out in the middle of Bumfuck, Arizona, yes, indeed you could carry guns in the same way that the Minutemen are. Now if you had it in Phoenix, that'd most likely be different.

Oh, btw, I AM an expert on Federal Firearms laws, both in an academic (I'm "published") and a practical sense....If you have specific questions about them, please ask.

[John BigBootay]

102. You lost this one, Cleita.

Next time, don't drive the DU highways while impaired!

[Cleita]

108. I guess your right, but I'm bored.

Does DU have a MADD chapter now? I thought it was legal to be impaired at DU. Oh, but it's not acceptable. So you see this gun ass crowd isn't acceptable either although legal.

[DoNotRefill]

146. Armed, certainly....but dangerous?

what laws have they violated? They're armed, sure....but LEGALLY armed.

The police can't just go out and shoot anybody they please....why you'd advocate such a thing is beyond me....

[Snivi Yllom]

74. funny how the Mexican Army does not stop the coyotes

on their side of the border

[Cleita]

76. Maybe it's not their job?

However, a militia massing on the other side of the border of a country would bring out the opposing army wouldn't it? I mean if Canada started massing militia at our northern borders, I am sure we would move troops in, just in case.

[Snivi Yllom]

79. only problem, there is no militia on the North side of the border

You have a bunch of rednecks in pickup trucks with binoculars and walkie talkies. Frankly, Mexico sending troops to the border to watch American citizens watching Mexican citizens try to cross the border illegally strikes me as ridiculous.

[Cleita]

85. They looked armed to me and wore name tags,

which means they are organized and have a plan. That is a milita. Cheeze don't you read "Soldier of Fortune"?

[WillowTree]

113. OK.

So what..........specifically what..........do propose either President Bush or the governor of Arizona should do to stop American citizens from engaging in a 100% legal activity?

[slackmaster]

96. From the United States Code, Title 10, Chapter 13, Section 311

§ 311. Militia: composition and classes

Release date: 2004-03-18

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-.html

From the Arizona Revised Statutes:

26-122. Components of militia

A. The militia is divided into the national guard of Arizona, the state guard when organized, and the unorganized militia.

B. The national guard consists of commissioned officers, warrant officers, enlisted personnel, organizations, staffs, corps and departments of the federally recognized and regularly commissioned, warranted and enlisted militia of the state, organized and maintained pursuant to law, and all members thereof honorably retired by age or disability.

C. The numerical strength, composition, distribution, organization, arms, uniforms, equipment, training and discipline of the federally recognized national guard shall be prescribed by the governor in conformity with the allocation of units to the state by the department of the army and the department of the air force of the United States.

D. The inactive national guard consists of commissioned, warranted and enlisted personnel relieved from assignment to the national guard by the adjutant general, or at their own request, under regulations prescribed by the department of national defense of the United States, and not reassigned to another component of the armed forces of the United States.

E. The unorganized militia consists of members of the militia not members of the national guard or state guard when organized.

[Silverhair]

178. The Mexican Army will do exactly - NOTHING !!!

As long as they are on their own side of the border, they can do whatever their hearts desire, consistent with the laws of Mexico. And they know that if they cross the border, it would be an invasion. They aren't about to do that.

[theboss]

84. It's like Neighborhood Watch on steroids

I find it very strange and a little disturbing, but everything seems to be perfectly legal. If anything goes wrong, I would prosecute the person who messes up as well as the leaders though.

[Cleita]

122. My husband and I once were

on neighborhood watch in Santa Monica a couple of decades ago. The most lethal weapons that I saw carried were flashlights that could be used as batons for self-defense and pepper spray.

[DoNotRefill]

172. Gun laws differ a fair bit.....

from Santa Monica to Arizona....In Santa Monica, you carried what was legally allowed. The Minutemen are carrying what is legally allowed where they are.

[realFedUp]

88. You're not the first to ask this....

If these guys were on the streets of any
city in America, they'd be surrounded by
SWAT teams. Remember all those peaceful,
non-violent demonstrations...always surrounded
by heavily armed cops and Feds.

It's just easy to let these guys play
cops and robbers in an area most people
in America don't live...out of sight,
out of mind. But allowing these guys to
take the laws into their own hands is
a mistake and will lead to unarmed innocents
getting hurt and killed.

[raccoon]

137. Amen to that

" Remember all those peaceful,
non-violent demonstrations...always surrounded
by heavily armed cops and Feds."

Not to mention, peaceful, non-violent demonstrators being caged up in a so-called "free speech zone." And they're not ARMED.

[TX-RAT]

140. A little correction.

(If these guys were on the streets of any
city in America, they'd be surrounded by
SWAT teams.)
If they were on public property, they probably would be.

(It's just easy to let these guys play
cops and robbers in an area most people
in America don't live..)
These are private ranch's, are you saying, that to defend my property from trespassers is playing Cops and Robbers? Would you let someone build a camp in your front yard?

(But allowing these guys to
take the laws into their own hands is
a mistake and will lead to unarmed innocents
getting hurt and killed.)
Since when is reporting a crime, taking the law into their own hands.?

[flordehinojos]

90. how are the 'minutemen' allowed to dowhat they are doing?

they are allowed because they are doing bush's goon work for him.

[John BigBootay]

110. How are YOU allowed to do what YOU are doing

here on DU-- that is excercizing your Constitutional rights to peacefully assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances?

The difference is that you are doing it in cyberspace and THEY are doing it on the border.

As long as YOU don't break any laws, i.e.: call for murders and assasinations, you are entitled to keep on keeping on.

As long as THEY don't break any laws, ditto.

Need more help than that?

[flordehinojos]

127. are the goons wearing brown shirts too?

[Fescue4u]

94. How many have they shot so far?

I agree, it should be illegal to shoot people.

[Snivi Yllom]

104. "I agree, it should be illegal to shoot people."

Ummm, it already is.

[Fescue4u]

109. then I guess the minute men are

just regular folks not breaking any laws then.

that proably has something to do with why they are allowed to do it then i bet

[DoNotRefill]

176. I don't agree with that....

It should be illegal to shoot MOST people. Some people need to be shot, and can be legally shot if their actions warrant it.

BTW, illegal immigrants don't generally fall into the "legally shootable" category, unless they're doing something that would justify shooting somebody who was a US citizen.

[ForrestGump]

121. Seems to me that,

inevitably, this kind of thing will end in tears. Not neccessarily this installment, but this kind of activity. And, yes, it's a magnet for nutcases and neo-Nazi types and is pretty much an accident waiting to happen.

Also seems to me that it's 100% legal and that these people are doing nothing wrong. Seems to me like we have no right, and no option, but to sit back and see what happens -- most likely, nothing.

Further seems to me that, once again, we see too many DUers flying off the handle with the slightest imagined provocation (spurious, often). For an additional concurrent example, see the Penn and Teller thread. That kind of behavior's hardly limited to the right-wing wackos of FreakRepublic, et al., apparently.

They're not doing anything wrong, those 'Minutemen.' But I still think that it's something of a recipe for disaster. For one, bad players move across the border -- drug runners and some of the coyotes and the like have long been having armed confrontations with rangers, Border Patrol, and other law enforcement (carrying a gun thereabouts is not such a bad idea, actually). It'd only take one of those types to ignite a bloodbath.

Further -- and that I assume this is sad commentaary on the American condition -- what's the bet that these Minutemen are not up to the task at all. Guns don't make a man more macho or physically fit, and -- if these people arer actually patrolling on foot (rather than the more likely modern American approach of driving everywhere in overpadded comfort), their soft bodies are unlikely up to the rigors of the environment. Ask rangers at the Grand Canyon and any other desert park how often they have to chopper in help to some oerstuffed suburban doofus who cluelessly confused himself with an outdoorsman. I highly doubt that these people are physically equipped to handle the environmental stresses and I'd bet that even the most detailed of pre-mission briefings would be insufficient to help them survive more than a good eight hours over ten feet away from the comfort of an SUV.

[Cleita]

123. Speaking of walking around in that terrain, theres always

the chance of stepping on a snoozing Rattlesnake.

[ForrestGump]

125. Wouldn't want that....

[theliberalavenger]

124. It's because they have guns

[EvolveOrConvolve]

126. The Minutemen have a perfect right to do what they're doing

However, I wouldn't be comfortable with roving gangs of armed Michael Savage wannabes roaming my neighborhood in search of lawbreakers. To them, a lawbreaker is anyone with a Kerry sign in the yard, a DU bumpersticker on their car, or brown skin.

This is the sort of movement that once started will be difficult to stop. And eventually something bad will happen.

[Cleita]

128. I still think there is something illegal about this.

Shouldn't they at least have permits? When the Aryan Nation used to have their annual march on some Nazi holiday in Coeur d' Alene, Idaho, they had to get a permit to march around with their guns, not that Idaho worries too much about armed men around because it is rural and a hunting area, but they still had to get a permit to march through the streets as a group with an identity.

[theboss]

130. I think they are on private property mostly...

If I own a ranch, I can invite as many nutcases with guns as I want to roam around.

[TX-RAT]

131. Absolutely, my ranch,my rules.

In the case of the MM, it's a trespassing thing, not an immigration thing. If the trespasser happens to be illegal, too bad.

As i stated in an earlier post.
Illegals crossing in TX have vandalized property, cut down fences, stolen cattle, cars, some have even butchered cows in the pastures, ate what they wanted and left the rest for Coyotes. We have drug dealers threatening land owners. It's got to stop!

[Cleita]

147. So why aren't you blaming the human coyotes and drug

dealers? Ooops, I'll bet they are American citizens. But, I don't think your frightened Mexican Indio is at the bottom of this. How do you know the coyotes don't tell them it's okay to kill and roast a cow to eat? Although, I'm not accepting your statement as being anything other than ancedotal unless I see evidence that would stand in a court of law for cattle rustling. Blame the perpetrator, will you? Also, blame the employers who hire these guys to keep wages low as well. Why is the concept of going after the real criminals so hard to understand?

Oh, I live on a ranch and we have a fence as well as electronic devices to keep out intruders, both four footed and two-footed. My neighbor has his fence electrified to keep in his horses. It also keeps out intruders. Now I have no problem with rancher "Dwayne" hiring some security for his ranch if he feels he needs it, but I think your good old boys are spoiling for shooting some 'cans if you get my drift. You ain't making your case.

[TX-RAT]

151. So why aren't you blaming the human coyotes and drug dealer"

I believe i did.

(How do you know the coyotes don't tell them it's okay to kill and roast a cow to eat?)
What the hell difference would that make?

(I'm not accepting your statement as being anything other than ancedotal unless I see evidence that would stand in a court of law for cattle rustling.)
Unless your willing to look for it you never will. You might start with local papers from the valley area of TX, that should keep ya busy for awhile.

(Oh, I live on a ranch and we have a fence as well as electronic devices to keep out intruders, both four footed and two-footed.)
Must be a small place.
Theres 10 mile of fence on my ranch.

(Now I have no problem with rancher "Dwayne" hiring some security for his ranch if he feels he needs it,)
Great! Thats all the landowners are doing, only difference is they had volunteers.

[Cleita]

156. ---

believe i did. No, you didn't. You blamed the Mexican nationals, not the traffickers, who could be Mexican too but, crime blotters suggest that they are mostly Americans living on the border. Maybe your ranchers are even involved playing both sides of the coin, but that's just speculation on my part.

(How do you know the coyotes don't tell them it's okay to kill and roast a cow to eat?)
What the hell difference would that make? Because you made an unsubstantiated allegaton of cattle rustling. And, open range suggests that the four footed coyotes could have gotten there first if you don't have proof. It happens all the time. A cow gets struck by a truck, stumbles into a field to die, sometimes for a long distance and the four-footed coyotes finish the rest.

(I'm not accepting your statement as being anything other than ancedotal unless I see evidence that would stand in a court of law for cattle rustling.)
Unless your willing to look for it you never will. You might start with local papers from the valley area of TX, that should keep ya busy for awhile. I was in West Texas a couple of times. I found your local fish wrappers on a par with Faux news. If I have time I might go through them and match up what they say with what the Border Patrol says and other agencies for balance, but don't hold your breathe. I'm too busy with election fraud right now.

(Oh, I live on a ranch and we have a fence as well as electronic devices to keep out intruders, both four footed and two-footed.)
Must be a small place.
Theres 10 mile of fence on my ranch. It is a small ranch but we don't ranch, however, over the hill from our ranch are mega-acres of vineyards in our wine country, and all of it is fenced. Oh, we have cattle too and it's a big horse breeding ranch area. Believe me the horse ranchers do not let their Andalusian, Arabian and Pinto thoroughbreds out on open range, not to mention their exotic species like Alpacas.
(Now I have no problem with rancher "Dwayne" hiring some security for his ranch if he feels he needs it,)
Great! Thats all the landowners are doing, only difference is they had volunteers. Here is the problem, the "volunteers" or perhaps better called a rabble. As I said, I don't have time, but I'll bet they are being paid and the money can be traced back to every right wing, bigoted organization right through to the top, the Heritage Foundation. But, like I said I am busy with other things. Gotta get rid of Ahnold, among other asshole politicians. You should be working on the same in Texas if you want some real solutions to your problems.

[TX-RAT]

162. Fish Wrappers? Why the insults?

(And, open range suggests that the four footed coyotes could have gotten there first if you don't have proof.)

Yea, Coyotes are notorious for taking the Hindquarters, back-strap,and tenderloins from their kills with knives.
This is getting funny!

[Cleita]

167. Thanks for being more specifc. No one has to guess now at your

allegations of cattle rustling. You still seem to pinning blame on a single scapegoated demographic painted with a broad brush.

So your butchering techniques seem to be of the expertise a cattle rancher would have and/or a hunter of say deer or elk. Instead, you would rather scapegoat people who probably eat more beans than meat ever and whose skills are pulling onions from the ground and pruning vines.

As far as insulting businesses who pretend to be practicing journalism, fuck em! It's time they started doing responsible reporting instead of being just a repository of coupons and ads for Walmart.

[GoldenOldie]

160. The Governor of Arizona - Janet Napolitano

The post by Cleita stating "The President needs to inform the Governor of Arizona that it's his job......"

Our Governor is well versed on the problems of the illegals crossing into the US along the Arizona Border. She along with other representatives from Arizona has pled the case for Arizona taxpayers funding the health, education, police, etc. President Bush and the Republican controled Houses of Government have ignored the problems of Arizona and the US.

President passes himself off as a Texan cowboy, to include his holdings of a ranch, cowboy boots, 10-gallon hat, yet he has little if any knowledge of the US/Mexico Border and it's problems.

The cowboy/POTUS/Commander-in-Chief, has taken control of the States National Guard Units to fight his war in Iraq. National Guard Units are under the control of the Governors in which they are assigned and are to be used for the purpose of defending/protecting/assisting the Governor and the citizens of State. It's kinda hard for the Governor to call-out the Guard to perform their duties of protecting her borders when Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz, are using them like their toy soldiers to be manipulated in any manner they choose.

The President Bush, takes funding away from the States in his budgets and then ignores the needs of the states to administer.

As a life-long, 5th generation, Arizona border resident, watching the National News report these elders, sitting in camping chairs, binoculars in hand, viewing vast stretchs of border desert, gives me a good chuckle. They look no different than the tourist bird-watchers, who come from around the world, to view the various birds
only a few miles from their camp sites.

Many of the "rancher," that the National media interview are no more ranchers than the Texan POTUS. The new arrivals to Arizona, purchase 1-acre, and call it a "ranch." The old-timers have little respect for these wannabee cowboys and are insulted when they are used by the Local or the National Media as the "Rancher's," affected by the illegal crossers.

Maybe it's time for Janet Napolitano to call back her Guard Units to defend our borders and let the "Minutement" go back to their own States.

[Cleita]

163. Now you are talking and thanks for clarifying things.

I knew there was something the President could do if the Governor couldn't do it or wouldn't do it, and you jogged my memory and that would be to call the National Guard to aid the Governor if she needed help from the feds.

During the first Watt's riots in LA back in the 1960s, the National Guard was mobilized to put down the rebellion that the police couldn't handle. The mayor of Los Angeles didn't call out for the geezer guard by any means and even if the National Guard hadn't been available, wouldn't have put civilians at that kind of risk anyway. Incidentally, these geezers are KKK mentality anyway you look at it and the Minutemen are very much a White Supremist organization. I was once a Snowbird and I know this species and their flock very well.

So now the question is whom to blame? It seems that the problem lies directly on the shoulders of the POTUS, doesn't it? I haven't been well lately so some of my posts have been sloppy, but injustice pisses me off and I think a bunch of white men with guns facing down a bunch of unarmed farm workers, many of them women and children is really based in racism. If they were illegals crossing who had originated in the Ukraine, the "ranchers" would be out there meeting them with water and blankets. I believe there are organizations that do this anyway for the brown people.

I understand why I am ruffling feathers here. It's very hard to face up to prejudices, but remaining silent would be wrong of me. I find this no different than the Germans who would not defend their Jewish neighbors from the Nazis because the Jews were often forced to break laws that the Nazis had passed forbidding them to buy food in grocery stores, and kept from working at jobs to support themselves.

[TX-RAT]

133. Shouldn't they at least have permits?

Do you need a permit to stand in your front yard?

This is not public land, it's private.

[Cleita]

148. If you have an armed militia standing on your front lawn, I'd

say you should need a permit that states your intent. I wonder if a group of Mexicans stood around on the front lawn of private property in Beverly Hills with guns, how long before everyone was in jail even if the front lawn belonged to Selma Hayak or Jimmy Smits?

[TX-RAT]

152. Depends on state gun laws.

(I wonder if a group of Mexicans stood around on the front lawn of private property in Beverly Hills with guns, how long before everyone was in jail even if the front lawn belonged to Selma Hayak or Jimmy Smits?)
I don't know, is it against the law in California ( or Beverly Hills City ordinance) to have an unconcealed weapon on you person, while standing on your own property?

[Cleita]

154. Not for yourself. I have sat many times out in my front yard with

my son-in-law helping him clean his guns and we are visible from the road. A group of armed men wouldn't go unnoticed especially if they were Mexican and laws would have nothing to do with it.

[TX-RAT]

155. Sounds like they would be perfectly legal.

As long as they had the owners permission.

(A group of armed men wouldn't go unnoticed especially if they were Mexican and laws would have nothing to do with it.)
Why would them being Mexican make any difference?

[Cleita]

158. Ha, ha. Now that's funny.

You have invited in a bunch of armed KKK white supremists to protect your property from unarmed farm workers because the are brown. Who is pointing the guns at whom here? If it makes no difference, go make a deal with the Mexicans to come and sit on your property and see what the neighbors say.

[TX-RAT]

165. I've invited no one.

I have nothing to do with MM.
A trespasser is a trespasser irregardless of race.

(If it makes no difference, go make a deal with the Mexicans to come and sit on your property and see what the neighbors say.)

Better than that, I'll just invite some relatives, most of them are Hispanic, as well as my wife. A large gathering of Hispanics doesn't draw much attention here. Sure sounds like it would in your neighborhood.

[Cleita]

168. Not in my neighborhood either if they are unarmed and dress nice..

A couple of hundred miles south of here it would. What would attract attention is the arms. The police gang units would be out in force.

[DoNotRefill]

177. Cleita, Cleita, Cleita....

They don't need permits because they're out in the middle of nowhere. Now if they were doing this in some city which required a permit, THEN they'd need a permit, but they are not.

[raccoon]

138. It may be legal

but this is just an accident waiting to happen.

[Junkdrawer]

150. Organize a new ARMED Weather Underground and see how many laws..

they'll find are broken.

Hell, I can hear it now.

[Junkdrawer]

171. Or better yet, Reorganize the Blank Panthers and have them march through..

the White Suburbs...

[DoNotRefill]

179. Didn't the Weather Underground....

blow a bunch of shit up?

That's a crime, isn't it? I mean it would be a crime unless they owned the stuff that got blown up and had a blasting permit, right?

Having a group that has guns and blows up other people's shit = illegal.

Having a group that has guns and blows their own shit up on their own property with a blasting permit = legal. In fact, this coming weekend in Knob Creek, KY, exactly that is happening....a bunch of guys with legally owned machineguns and a blasting permit are going to blow the crap out of a hillside at the semi-annual Knob Creek Machinegun shoot. http://www.knobcreekshoot.com Guess what? It's 100% legal. Now if there were people there being blown up too, or they were blowing stuff up that they didn't own or have the permission of the owner, or if they didn't have a blasting permit for the explosives, THEN it'd be ILLEGAL.

[Green Thumb]

153. They haven't broken any laws

Is it a crime for you to call the cops when someone is breaking into your house?

That is all they are doing, calling the cops on those illegally entering the country.

[underpants]

157. Angry Mobs of Gun-Toting Vigilantes Mass at Mexican Border

Hope to keep undesirables from entering

http://www.ironictimes.com/index.html

[Cleita]

159. I couldn't open the link to the article.

Could you give us a summary?

[underpants]

161. Ironic Times is a satirical website

Usually very funny

[Cleita]

164. I know that. I still can't open the link.

Puleeze, just a few bones here. :-)

[underpants]

166. That was pretty much it

http://www.ironictimes.com/

[Zorra]

169. About 66,000 illegal immigrants were caught last month in one area where

the Minutemen were offering back-up patrol. At that rate, the equivalent of the population of Indianapolis would be apprehended over a year.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152557,00.html

This is a suspect news source so I don't know if the info is accurate.

Maybe if Buh would adequately fund the Border Patrol to the point where they could efficiently protect our borders, these folks would not feel the need to "voluntarily assist" the Border Patrol.

For some strange reason, Buh has consistently made it a point to severely underfund the Border Patrol since 9/11.

[izzybeans]

170. Morally its completely wrong. But not much we can do about it

until they abduct or harm someone.

They might as well stand at the statue of liberty with their muskets and sink every ship coming down the harbor while poo-pooing the "weak...huddled masses" slogan. That would make the irony that much more obvious. It would at least make for an appropriately subversive comedy routine. It could end with the statue crying and shoving her torch up their asses. That my friend would be the moral thing to do, anyway.

[inflection]

180. lets just hope they are good people nt