Where is Howard Dean in all this? The Repukes are imploding and

[goodboy]

once again, the dems are sitting on the side lines. The pukes have the talking points out, ("we wouldn't starve a dog, and we wanna give terri the same options as we gave ted bundy") and the dems can't get their message straight.

I'm tired of hearing, 'let the repukes hang themselves' I want the dems to pull the handle that drops the floor out from underneath them.

Where is the leader of our party?

[NewJeffCT]

1. It would have been nice to have a doctor answering Frist

Or, at least saying that Frist is unethical for commenting on Schiavo...

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Reid and Pelosi...

Have intentionally set the ground rules for Dean, that he let them get out in front on the issues. In many ways, he must answer to them, not them to him.

[seabeyond]

4. he did, dems voice isnt heard on media n/t

[NewJeffCT]

11. what did he say? I haven't even seen it on DU

Granted, I time have time to read every single frackin' Schiavo post...

[seabeyond]

14. what you would expect cant quote exactly

but a shame on frist for diagnosing from a video. he wouldnt want a doctor that practiced medicine in that way. and this from a person who is a doctor

[goodboy]

31. we should have the talking points just like the pukes...we shouldn't

have to search all over for it.

[Tippy]

43. Dean Quote......

"Although there are no official rules against the practice, ethicists said it is generally considered unprofessional for a doctor to make or question a diagnosis on the basis of incomplete information"

Dean was reffering to a statement made by Bill Frist, Frist had said something to the effect after seeing home video he felt Terri was not brain dead..

On edit: This is an accurate quote it was taken from a news conference in Memphis....

On Edit: here is the link <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1331104 >

[goodboy]

55. that is just one facet to this whole mess...tell me how he feels about

Tom delay's comments on the secret tape recording he gave to the pro-life group on 3.18...

[seabeyond]

59. cant believe there is actually something i havent heard

what is this

[goodboy]

64. oh you haven't heard? Huh,..I wonder why.. See DeLay gave a speech

to a pro-life group and tied the schiavo thing to his own political indescretions. Someone tape recorded him saying that this schiavo thing was a gift from god, and the dems were trying to destroy him, and the conservative movement.

[goodboy]

9. YES! Now you're talking! We have some great resources, but we

are not using them!

[renaissanceguy]

37. He did! Can anyone find the link?

It was in LBN maybe a day or two ago.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/466053

[Tippy]

98. Here is the link

< http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1331104 >

[FreedomAngel82]

51. I'd love

to hear a debate between him and Frist. Now that'd be hot!

[phish420]

158. Ummm....Isnt Dean a doctor?

What kind of MD is he?

[bowens43]

2. Dean is doing the right thing....

Never interrupt your opponent when he's making a jackass of himself.

The general public is overwhelmingly on our side in this issue. The more they talk the worse they look.

[Der Engel der Katzen]

6. Heh heh. Well said.

[NewJeffCT]

12. they said that about the Swift Boat liars, too

Never interrupt them when they're shooting themselves in the foot... meanwhile, the drumbeat of the SBV went on for a month basically unanswered.

[bowens43]

36. As it should have.

Kerry lost because he decided to play soldier boy. They were only effective because Kerry decided to make the military an issue. Dumb move. It lost him the election.

This is a very different situation. 70-80% of the country is on our side in this issue. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

[goodboy]

77. and some would say, was a major reason we lost, (nt)

[goodboy]

16. Why shouldn't the leader of our party be out there stating our position

I think Dean should've been making hay with the Tom Delay secret tape recording.

[bowens43]

34. Because it's none of our damn business how the families resolve this.

We have seen what this has done to the republicans. It makes them look like blithering idiots. Why join the fray?

[goodboy]

42. staying above the fray doesn't necessarily mean being silent, consider

our Dem. convention. We were nice, even though we could've DESTROYED bush...what do the pukes do? ATTACKATTACKATTACK...we should attack these pricks every chance we get!

[bowens43]

73. This is NOT an appropriate time.

If we attack on this issue then we do EXACTLY what the republicans have done. We politicize personal tragedy. It's a losing strategy.

[goodboy]

81. we don't need to attack on the issue, we need to attack the pukes (nt)

[bowens43]

87. It's not possible to separate the two right now.

[goodboy]

93. see post 89

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. 80% of public think Repubs are overreaching...

If not now, when?

Timid freakin' Dems tick me off almost as much as Repukes.

Schiavo is irrelevant. What is relevant is the R's willingness to use the tragedy to promote their own political ends. Dems MUST call them on this.

[mondo joe]

45. Then THAT should be our position. Not silence.

[goodboy]

48. Right, mondo. KICK THEM WHILE THEY"RE DOWN...

[bowens43]

68. yeah, like that's worked before.

What is it about winning that we don't like? We're winning on this issue now. If we change tactics we risk inciting the republican party faithful who are on our side on this and there are many of them.

[goodboy]

78. it's never worked before, because we've never done it before...(nt)

[bowens43]

85. The republicans are 'down' because they chose to politicize this issue.

Now some here want us to make the same mistake. Until this is over it is much better to stay above the fray and to allow our opponents to do our work for us.

When it's over and the fervor has died down it will be time to discuss the issue. IMO , as long as this is on TV every five minutes attacking the republicans is losing proposition.

[goodboy]

89. I don't want to attack on the issue: I want to attack the pukes, for exam

we could be saying, "they're destroying your rights, they're creating a constitutional crisis, they're destroying your social security, they're killing your kids, they're the reason you'll soon pay 4 bucks for a gallon of gas, they're the reason there are no jobs for american workers, they're the reason you can't afford your prescriptions, they're the reason you don't have healthcare, they're the reason poverty has skyrocketed in this country." IT ALL FITS TOGETHER FOLKS>

[mondo joe]

50. Our party has become like a battered housewife

"Please don't hit me!"

It's like the dems are so grateful to not get kicked that they'll just be quiet and hope for the best.

[goodboy]

58. great analogy...we have a golden opportunity to destroy these fucks

but we're so used to them winning, we just stand idly by..

[mondo joe]

61. "I'll be quiet - just don't hit me again!"

I'm fucking sick of it.

[bowens43]

65. I disagree.

We are WINNING OVERWHELMINGLY on this issue by staying quiet. Why open our mouths and fuck it up?

[goodboy]

67. we're not winning as much as they're losing. we can't win by default

[bowens43]

70. Yes, we can win by default.

We can also open our mouths at an inappropriate time and change a win into a loss. That is the likely outcome.

[goodboy]

72. tell me, how did being the good guys, help us win the election?

[bowens43]

Do you understand why the republicans are taking a beating on this?

It's because they chose to politicize a human tragedy. You want us to do the same? This is not the time. Maybe later after the issue is resolved but certainly not while it's still going on.

[goodboy]

80. no, this has nothing to do with the tragedy, as much as we should be

hammering the Pukes...not talking about the tragedy,,,HAMMERING THE PUKES

[bowens43]

88. hammering them for what exactly?

[goodboy]

95. see post 89...

[bowens43]

100. Your original post spoke only of the current issue in florida.....

WSe are attacking on most of those other things.

[goodboy]

106. what I mean is, that this is a great opportunity to say, "SEE? this is

why we're filibustering bush's radical appointments and we'll continue to do so"

[LynneSin]

Repukes are begging us to get into the fray...

...and dems are smart enough to just stay the hell out of this entire mess, which is what the government as a whole should have done in the first place.

Knowing how volatile this subject matter is (The right to choose for those who cannot speak), I would be pissed if dems start weighing in what the right and wrong ways is. Because believe me, as soon as we start expressing our opinions - we'll have killer slapped all over our foreheads. This isn't about Terri Schiavo - never was. This is repukes trying to move their agenda as the people who speak for those who cannot speak. That would include unborn fetuses you know!

Best to let the repukes keep shooting themselves in the foot. They seem to be doing an excellent job

[goodboy]

99. isn't this a prime opportunity to call attention to every horrible thing t

the right has done? Please read post 89. We don't have to talk about this situation as much as we can use the vulnerable state of the repuke party to our advantage and hammer our message home, and precipitate the great realignment of the country.

[bowens43]

101. No one will pay attention to anything other then Terri

until this is resolved.

[LynneSin]

105. NOPE, absolutely not. Because the majority of americans are ADD...

...when it comes to the news stories. We're all aghast at what the repukes are doing. But 3 years down the line when a dem is running for congress, senate, prez etc - the words that dem said now will be twisted to make said dem candidate to look like some sort of killer. And Americans would have forgotten about Terri Schhiavo by then and moved on to the next Sensationalistic Story of the momemt.

Plus I can almost guarentee the women's right issues are hoping the dems stay quiet - next thing you know Repukes will think they can speak for unborn fetuses.

[dddem]

126. because "we" have no right to a position on this.

It shames me as an American and as a human that this poor woman's life has become yet another polarizing issue for our government. Shame on them. Shame.

[FreedomAngel82]

56. Yep

It's smart to make a statement like what Dean did but not get up in the face. With this with all the loud mouths on the right are out there and it makes it seem like all the republicans are on this (when they aren't) and if the democrats do come out on this if they are against it they'd be called names etc. So I think it's smart to let them show their own craziness and do it by themselves. It's fun to watch.

[goodboy]

66. great, so we know dean thinks its wrong to diagnose someone by

watching a tape...is this what all the noise is about?

[Der Engel der Katzen]

5. Didn't I see this very same message title while lurking, a week or two ago

??

Or is it deja vu?

[comsymp]

75. Yup- and you'll see it again... and again... and again...

There's a fairly vocal contingent of folks here who aren't exactly enamored of the good Doctor, and they never miss a chance to criticize him (accurately or not) for alleged failure to respond to whatever malfeeance the R's are up to on any given day.


Delay's ethics "problems" - Where's Howard!? Why isn't he speaking out?


Congress raping the Constitution - Where's Howard!? Why isn't he speaking out?


Gas prices at all time high - Where's Howard!? Why isn't he speaking out?


Tornados in the heartland - Where's Howard!? Why isn't he speaking out?



Both boring and sad, really.

[Der Engel der Katzen]

79. ah...

Well, I stated my agreement w/ #2 -- no need to comment on your opponent when he's making a jackass of himself.

[comsymp]

82. So true -

And applicable to nearly any situation...

BTW, welcome to DU~

[Der Engel der Katzen]

91. Danke.

[goodboy]

86. right, like when the pukes were attacking us for 4 days during their

convention...that theory worked great for us because we won the election...oh wait...

[napi21]

7. HD spoke twice in the last few days about the Schiavo issue.

Once in Tenn, I think, and I don't remember where the other was.

The one comment that I remember was about Bill Frist, speaking as a Dr. without even examining the patient, and how that was wrong at least, and perhaps unethical at worst!

As I understand it, his position is that issues like this are very personal and the Gov't has no business interfering.

[goodboy]

18. Are you sure about that? If that's our position, then the Pukes will say

50+ dems voted for the bill also...then what?

[adwon]

29. That's why nobody's making a big show

This event is centered on Delay and the two Bushes. The fact that quite a few Democrats voted for the measure is extra incentive to keep the spotlight on the GOP. Dean has done a good job in keeping his comments local on this issue. He lets people know he feels in a given locale but gives no fodder to the GOP.

If the party line is that government has no place in this, the best way to prove it is by keeping quiet.

[goodboy]

60. I think that's just an excuse, and a poor one at that. We didn't start

this crap, but we sure can finish it.

[adwon]

96. No

If prominent Democrats get involved at this stage, they end up with the blame for politicizing the event.

To borrow from LBJ:
This is not the time to commit the Democratic party to the debate: Resolved, that Terry Schiavo dying is a good thing. Excuse the hyperbole, but that is exactly what will occur if they jump into the fray. There is absolutely nothing to gain in this situation from speaking up. Americans recognize a power grab when they see one and, believe me, they know exactly what they're seeing. When Congress comes back into session is the time to strike. Watch for Delay's ethics problems to become the major news.

Unless of course Jeb decides to send in the state troopers. That scenario has the possibility of ending with W having to send marshals to recover TS because of a civil rights challenge by her husband.

[napi21]

90. Here's a snip from Dean's speech in Tn.

Dean takes jabs at GOP, Frist over Schiavo case
By TOM HUMPHREY, [email protected]
March 22, 2005

NASHVILLE - Howard Dean, who today makes his first trip to Tennessee as the Democratic National Committee chief, criticized Republicans in general Monday - and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist in particular - for grandstanding on the Terri Schiavo case.

"This is a deeply personal matter and ought to be left up to physicians," Dean said in a telephone conference call with Tennessee reporters.

"For Sen. Frist to say he could make a diagnosis based on a videotape is certainly not medically sound," said Dean, who, like Frist, is a physician-politician. "I wouldn't want my doctor making any diagnosis of me on videotape."

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/state/article/0,1406,KNS_348_3640176,00.html

You have to register to read this article, but it's free.

[goodboy]

32. but nobody knows for sure...that's my point...

[RubyCat]

8. I don't think it would be wise to do anything political about this until

after Terri dies.

After that, we can introduce healthcare reform bills aimed towards benefiting the terminally ill. For instance, we can propose that hospitals cannot remove life support against the will of the family when the family can no longer afford the medical bills. That was the bill bush signed in Texas in 1999 which basically was another way of taking away someone's health insurance.

[FSogol]

20. I agree.

Let the repubs self destruct. It is a sad case no matter which side you are on. No need to try and profit from misery. That is what separates us from the "Compassionate" right wingers.

[landeaugriffin]

124. I agree

Sometimes less is more. I'm feeling more and more trusting of Dean's judgment, and I think this first big political situation he is dealing with as the head is showing his substance as a leader. No reason to stick his neck out - the Repug's necks are already well over-extended.

[goodboy]

130. if the repukes neck is over-extended like you say, then we oughta

metaphorically speaking, "cut the head off the serpent" and finish the fuckers off.

[goodboy]

21. the bill bush signed in 1999 should've been pounded into the minds

of the american people every single day. I don't think it's been said enough...where were the pro-lifers when they killed that black baby last week?

[tuvor]

10. You might want to search Google news or something.

I'm sure I've seen him comment on this recently.

[CornField]

13. Rule #1: When your opponent is drowning, don't throw a rope.

[goodboy]

22. no, we should be throwing bricks...

[CornField]

27. So they can build something to stand upon?

Let them alone... they are doing so much damage to themselves it is laughable. If we try to take them down faster and harder, we'll just come off looking like the bad guys.

[goodboy]

62. I respectfully disagree...that is the same thinking we used at our

convention..."We'll be above the fray, they'll be venemous, and the american people won't like it and they'll go with the good guys."

see how good that worked. They hammered us nonstop for 4 days. We looked like pussies.

[Cuban_Liberal]

15. "Never murder an opponent who's comitting suicide"

---Woodrow Wilson

[CornField]

19. Or that. LOL! Woodrow said it much better than I did.

[goodboy]

53. why can't we help them pull the trigger? Give them the gun, Tie the noose

pull the plug, throw the fucking toaster into the bathtub...

[Cuban_Liberal]

110. LOL!

Because we don't need the burden of guilt.

;)

[Endangered Specie]

144. Precisely...

:)

[jpgray]

17. He's gotten in some blows if you know where to look

But he's mostly out fundraising right now. The most important thing Dean can do is transfer our fundraising base from corporate power to individuals, and build our grassroots organizations. That's mostly why I thought he was a great choice for DNC chair--I figure he's out to move the financial power base to a place where politicians don't have to be afraid to stand up for what's right.

[goodboy]

23. That's my point...we shouldn't have to look, everyone and their dog

should know exactly how we feel about this as a party, and sadly, I think we're missing the boat once again. Allowing the pukes to lie with impugnity (she's lucid, she talks, she could eat, michael beat her,) Also allowing that fucking lying nurse on TV without response was a huge mistake.

[jpgray]

26. But this isn't strictly Dean's job--it's Reid's job, and Pelosi's job

I don't remember people yelling "WHERE is Terry McAuliffe on this!?" when he was DNC chair. But maybe I disagree with you somewhat because I don't want a preening media-hog DNC chair, I want a DNC chair who will fundraise and build precinct-level organizations for 2006. Dean is doing what you ask in the context of that, but I guess because he is such a figure of hope for some that people expect a lot more of him. I think he's doing a good job so far.

[seabeyond]

28. then goodboy, you had better start talking to media

i listened to media and repugs say over and over kerry has no plan, as i listened to kerry's speeches, where he laid out his plans. i emailed the media saying, listen to his speeches, does to have a plan. yet they never listene3d. they never reported or talked about his plans. all they said was kerry has no plan. bushie boy picked up kerry's plans, though being an ass, bush couldnt get kerry's plans to work, where as kerry being much more intelligent and a better politician, probably could have been effective. yet still the media said kerry has no plan

so instead of yelling at dems, or dean, start talking to media. i assure you they will ignore you, and continue as they have since the impeachment of clinton. vilify everything that is democratic

[goodboy]

30. I've been making phone calls like a maniac, I was on Ed Shultz's show

the other day...I've been writing emails so much my fingers hurt...and I'm a professional pianist.

[seabeyond]

35. lol lol good for you

and i think i heard that you had talked on shultz show. i think it was your post i was reading, not sure

but that is good. and this is the only way we possibly have an ability to be heard. lets look at the simple

they are saying terri's father says she says she doesnt want to die. they put this on the news

yet the dont put on the news, her condition, what dieing is about and how body shuts down in death and doesnt want water and food. that she is not in pain and so much more they could give. factual information. important information

the media doesnt do this. they play merely on people emotion in lie and story telling. this has become so ingrained in our media, i dont know what it is going to take to get them to knock it off. if they ever will

but i too have time and time and time again pointed out their lies, their misrepresentation, their one sided journalism, all for not

finally turned off news in oct

but you keep up the fight, wink. and be proud and i hope it allows media to listen. we just have to acknowledge that if dems cant be heard, or if every single thing they say is twisted to an ugly or bad, you know..........they have no control of that, and we just have to figure out a different way of communicating

[goodboy]

47. I agree with you 100%, but I really think we're missing an opportunitty

to kick the pukes in the face while they're lying on the ground.

[seabeyond]

57. have you argued with a freeper

they would simply and continually say, why do you want her dead. why is your party the party of death

i hear you. we will see what happens. just i have been watching forever, and i just see it a lose for dems to forcefully go out. now last night on hardball there was katrina editor of nation. she was able to get some good points in. the thing, it was only because tweety agreed with her and let her talk. otherwise he shuts her up and never lets her talk and sneers all the while

since the people across nation have spoken, maybe there will be opportunity. will have to see

[goodboy]

69. I would say, I don't want her dead, she wants her dead, and that's

what the courts say, and that's that.

[JNelson6563]

38. Is it the GOP chair leading the charge? Not exactly.

Dean is one person. He can't do it all.

I'd like to see more than one Dem held accountable here. That way things could at least appear to be fair & balanced.

Ugh.

Julie

[goodboy]

52. I just don't see any leadership here, and you're right, one dem cannot

be responsible, but why is it that on every talk show last night, ALL the fucking pukes had all the same talking points, and stayed on message...my question is,. WHAT THE FUCK IS OUR MESSAGE?

[KharmaTrain]

24. Where Are They On The Local Level?

We had a meeting of our local group that works with the local Democratic party and Independents and we've developed a very efficient operation in winning elections and getting out the vote. We helped elect a Democrat over a Repugnican incumbent in 2004, and did so with little national asistance...especially from the DNC.

We had hoped a change over in the top would mean help was on the way, but so far it's meet the new boss, same as the old boss. We're already working under the assumption we'll have little help again from the DNC and have to raise even more money and work even harder as we're sure our district will be targeted heavily.

I've been looking for strings about other organizations or candidates trying to get their acts together for 2006...and I have my checkbook ready to help...but those strings are far and few as well around here.

The Democrats are running scared and there's zero leadership in this issue and many others. Lies and Repugnican spin goes constantly unrebutted and party discipline is almost non-existant.

This morning I saw a DINO on C-SPAN...they always seem to find those...and his stammering and waivering was pathetic...no wonder people view Democrats as weak. Who decided for him to appear? Where's the DNC on this?

While I'd like to hear what Dr. Dean has to say, I'm waiting on what he will do. Talk is cheap.

[goodboy]

109. Kick,....thank you...

[beam me up scottie]

25. Link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1331104

[goodboy]

39. that's great but show me where else he's spoken on this...I'm seeing

pukes everyfreakin'where.

[beam me up scottie]

46. Actually I admire

Dean for not joining the millions of others who think it's okay to stick their noses in it.

[goodboy]

49. I don't. This is our chance to accelerate the destruction of the repukes

and we're just sitting on our hands.

[beam me up scottie]

63. Then get someone else to roll in the mud.

Howard Dean got my vote each time he ran for governor because of his ethics. If you want him to fight sleaze with sleaze you've got the wrong man.

[goodboy]

71. we don't need sleaze, we need the truth, and we're on the right side

of this, unlike the pukes, so we don't need sleaze.

[beam me up scottie]

103. I agree with you 100%

except I don't believe it should come from Dean. He has always taken the high road and as a doctor would be criticized for mixing politics with medicine.
There are plenty of dems who should get in the ring since they don't have anything to lose.

[goodboy]

127. we should have a united front, and stay on message...I agree 100%

[DinahMoeHum]

33. Please refer to this earlier DU thread. Dean did speak on this issue:

Link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1331104

(snip)
SNIP..."- Howard Dean, who today makes his first trip to Tennessee as the Democratic National Committee chief, criticized Republicans in general Monday - and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist in particular - for grandstanding on the Terri Schiavo case.

"This is a deeply personal matter and ought to be left up to physicians," Dean said in a telephone conference call with Tennessee reporters.

For Sen. Frist to say he could make a diagnosis based on a videotape is certainly not medically sound," said Dean, who, like Frist, is a physician-politician. "I wouldn't want my doctor making any diagnosis of me on videotape."
(snip)

:kick:

[goodboy]

40. I realize that, but the american public is being hammered by the right

and we're on the sidelines for the most part. I applaud dean's comments from TN, but wouldn't you agree that we need a more visible approach? We seem to be MIA

[Bouncy Ball]

41. Actually Dean did issue a statement on this

AND I am glad to see Dems NOT joining THIS circus. The repukes look disgusting politicizing this and believe me, when everything is said and done, Dems will look better for NOT having gotten into the mud on this one.

Yech. It's all so tasteless.

[goodboy]

44. Yes he did, once. and I agree that we shouldn't get into the mud, but

we should be clear about where we stand.

The pukes are falling apart, and instead of hitting them with a fucking sledgehammer, we're just observing. I wanna kick them in the face while they're down

[Cha]

121. No! It hasn't been just "once"..

it was already stated on this thread that Dean has commented "twice" on it..so why don't you find another angle to slam Dean on..I trust what Dean is doing FAR more than someone always saying ..why isn't he doing more, more, more?

[goodboy]

137. chill....I'm not slamming dean...read the thread...thank you...

[Cha]

140. You "chill"..and I

have read the thread..thank you.

[goodboy]

148. I apologize, it was wrong for me to talk to you like that...

FWIW I love Dean being the chair, and I support him vigorously. In many ways it is Dean who's stirred this passion in me, and I feel very strongly that at the very least, our Democratic leadership oughta come up with a plan to finish these puke bastards off once and for good, and I think the best time to do it is when they're vulnerable.

[Cha]

152. Apology very greatly accepted and

I'm really glad to know that you support Dean being Chair..and I do appreciate your enthusiasm.

I do agree with the posters(particulary LSdem) who think this is not the time to blast the repugs..this really struck a chord with me..

"Dean speaking out loudly would reunite the Republicans

Right now the Republicans are fighting amongst themselves. Dean and Dems in general speaking out would just get in the way of the implosion." LSdemocrat

I think there will be a time..soon.. when want you call for will happen!

[MrBenchley]

54. America overwhelmingly hates that the GOP is playing politics here

Why would any sane person want to choose this moment to start playing politics publicly?

"The poll also found that the public, by a margin of 70 percent to 27 percent, opposes congressional involvement in the case. Fully 67 percent of the poll's participants thought members of Congress were more focused on using the Schiavo case for political advantage than on the principles involved."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/23/opinion/edkohut.html

[goodboy]

74. here's what's gonna happen: Terri's gonna die, she'll become a

martyr for the right, and the dems will be painted as murderers because we didn't fight for her like the pukes did. And all because we didn't tell the american people how we really feel about this, while the repukes drew comparisons to ted bundy and to dogs.

[MrBenchley]

112. So what?

"the dems will be painted as murderers"
By people whom 82% of America disagrees with....

[goodboy]

117. they managed to turn a war hero into a traitor, so it's not that much of a

stretch. They will say, the dems didn't fight for terri. They will say the dems are the party of death. They will come out of this smelling like a rose like they always do if we stand idly by.

[MrBenchley]

142. 82% of Americans don't want this to be politics...

It would be suicide to jump in and politicize it.

[demwing]

76. Where are you?

Why aren't you out dropping the floor?

Dean says that you have the power, and you say Dean's not using his power.

[goodboy]

83. sigh...I've written so many emails my fingers hurt, and I'm a professional

pianist. I've been calling radio talk shows, and was on the ed schultz show two days ago. I've been calling my senators and reps, and the DNC with my suggestions. I'm open to suggestions, I'm here to fight.

[demwing]

104. Good for you

now, instead of crapping on Dean, get back to work!

[LynneSin]

84. Did you ever think sometimes it's better to sit back & watch them implode

Seriously, I think Dean is doing the same thing. If anything - by siding with Michael Schiavo and those who think the tubes should be removed, that could come back on on butts and bite us.

If anything the repukes have given themselves plenty of rope to hang themselves with. Best to sit on the sideline with this issue and be the party that says "We're not getting involved because it wasn't our situation to get involved with in the first place"

[goodboy]

92. They've got the rope to hang themselves, we should be pulling the

chair out from under them. That's all I'm saying.

[LynneSin]

102. When a building implodes you don't want to be anywhere near it....

...that's the same with this mess. Our government should have never been involved in the first place. And the bulk of the democrats are doing just that - not getting involved! Because when this implodes on the repukes, if we haven't said anything there is no way they can twist those words down the line and use them against us.

[goodboy]

107. so we shouldn't tie the congressional abuse with all the other awful

things the pukes are doing? Lynne, I love you and I agree with you on almost everything, and I agree with you in principle on this....I just think this is our moment to fight hard, and finish these fascists off for good.

[LynneSin]

114. But this just isn't being wrong - this is dangerous grounds everyone...

...is treading on.

If we didn't have MSM working against us - I would so go for it 110%. But this is very morbid territory that everyone is treading on and I feel it's best for democrats to just stay out of it as much as possible. Anything that we say now can and will be used against us somewhere down the line. But by staying out of it, this is fantastic material that we can use against the repukes for future campaigns.

Take a look at Michael Schiavo - he's been lying real low throughout all of this because he knows that he has the public on his side. Let his in-laws make a mess out of this stuff. It's a good thing too. If he started acting like his in-laws the public would start thinking he must really want his wife dead.

BTW, it's ok to agree to disagree - that's what makes the democratic party great

:loveya:

[goodboy]

119. I understand what you're saying...and about your previous comment

about the building imploding...you're right, I don't want to be near it when it goes down...but I want to be the one smacking the debris with a wrecking ball to make sure it's down for good.

[MrBenchley]

113. Exactly so....

Shakespeare said it best...

"Gow.   Why, the enemy is loud; you heard him all night.  
 Flu.   If the enemy is an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, is it meet, think you, that we should also, look you, be an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, in your own conscience now?"

[jmowreader]

94. This is not the time to act. We'll look like ghouls.

The time to act is about six hours after she dies. If you think they're obnoxious now, wait till she flatlines.

About an hour after she's pronounced dead, every prominent right-wing lunatic in America will be sitting in front of a television camera. They'll be blaming Terri's death on everyone from liberal judges to the mainstream media to Bill Clinton, because after all Terri wouldn't have suffered from potassium imbalance fifteen years ago if Clinton wouldn't have invented the blowjob seven years ago. (There are really0 five horsemen, not four--the horsemen of conquest, war, commerce, death and blowjobs. Didn't you get the memo?)

At that time, we need to get Bartcop in front of a camera and let him do his thing. That fucker will make Randall Terry cry like Nancy Kerrigan. Bartcop's got a smart mouth and nothing to lose.

[goodboy]

97. what will we say then? I'm not being sarcastic, I'd really like to hear

your opinion...I'm a fellow bartcop fan.

[jmowreader]

157. We need to attack on four fronts

First is religious. The Lord has been calling Terri home for fifteen years, but selfish humans have thwarted His will.

Next, obviously, is the concept of marriage. The Repugs love marriage. They think everyone should be married, just so long as "everyone" wants to marry someone of the opposite sex and same color, get good jobs, and produce lots of healthy, cuddly Christian babies. Last time I checked, part of this concept we call marriage is the authority to make healthcare decisions for your spouse when your spouse is unable to. The entire Schiavo case revolves around one question: Who's really responsible for your spouse's healthcare decisions? If the answer is "you," then the whole case is moot and Terri should have died three years ago, when Michael had the tube removed the first time. If the answer is "your spouse's parents," marriage has just died as an institution. Stop; back up. ADULTHOOD has just died as an institution. Terri is well past the age of majority--the time when you are emancipated from your parents. If Terri Schiavo is reconnected in accordance with her parents' wishes, the decision will reverberate throughout the legal world; imagine all of the marriages that will be dissolved because her mom doesn't approve of his religion.

State's rights is third. Terri's Law runs afoul of the Constitution in more ways than just being a bill of attainder. There are serious 10th Amendment questions here. Why is the federal government attempting to seek jurisdiction in a Florida case? There are no implications for interstate commerce or communication in this case. The concept of federal law was created when John Dillinger was robbing every bank he could find; a legal construct created to stop Public Enemy Number One is overkill when applied to this case--a dying woman whose mom can't accept the very harsh realities presented here. As someone much wiser than I put it, you're not supposed to have to bury your children.

There are many more than four things we could attack on, but let's declare number four to be Exploitation. The GOP, the right-to-lifers, the religious right and every other degree of wingnut has exploited this dying woman for their own ends. Let's let Terri bite them in the ass; it will be fun.

[Avalux]

111. Good Advice:

"If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant."

- Sun Tzu

[goodboy]

116. shit, that's great advice...so, now that the pukes have gotten so

arrogant as to pull the shit they did last sunday night...so I'm curious, what is the next step for us according to Sun Tzu.

[Avalux]

135. Here you go -

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/taoism/suntext.htm

The Art of War by Sun Tzu.

:hi:

[madfloridian]

115. Good Lordy, this is Counterpunch attack day.

Just reading a few posts here. LOL

[goodboy]

118. hey mad;

do you agree with me or what?

[madfloridian]

123. I think Josh Frank sent you to cause dissension. LOL

LOL No, I do not agree with you. HD is doing the right thing. He is flying under their radar and getting a lot accomplished. He is busy getting the new staff organized, hiring people to go the states to work...hopefully 4 in each state before the end of the year.

He and the Democrats should let the GOP keep right on doing this.

[goodboy]

132. wouldn't you agree that the repukes strategy has been to:

divide and conquer. So, in what instance would you think it appropriate to divide and conquer the Repukes. I'm not talking about politicizing the tragedy, I'm talking about shining the light on these cockroaches at their most vulnerable time with a united democratic party.

[LSdemocrat]

120. Dean speaking out loudly would reunite the Republicans

Right now the Republicans are fighting amongst themselves. Dean and Dems in general speaking out would just get in the way of the implosion.

[Cha]

122. Excellent Point, LSDem!

End of story!

[goodboy]

128. I really appreciate your input on this, a question:

in what situation would you say, while the repukes are crumbling, should the dems lay the smackdown on them...you know, the final chair to the back of the head moment?

[LSdemocrat]

133. I don't think we should touch the "issue" with a ten foot pole

No one outside of a few pro-"life" extremists agrees with DeLay and the Bushes on this one. They are making themselves look like fools all on their own. Their position is unpopular enough that they will knock themselves out.

[goodboy]

134. I hope you're right, and I hope we're not missing a golden opportunity

here...once again, to take advantage of their weakness and finish the fuckers off. I'm not talking about this issue specifically, I think we should be saying: LOOK AT THIS, LOOK WHAT THESE FUCKERS HAVE DONE! NOT ONLY THIS FIASCO, but:
they're destroying your rights, they're creating a constitutional crisis, they're destroying your social security, they're killing your kids, they're the reason you'll soon pay 4 bucks for a gallon of gas, they're the reason there are no jobs for american workers, they're the reason you can't afford your prescriptions, they're the reason you don't have healthcare, they're the reason poverty has skyrocketed in this country."

[madfloridian]

125. This is just so funny to me. Dean Dean Dean Dean

When the guy is speaking out, everybody wants him to shut up. When he is being quiet, it makes them mad and they want him to talk out.

:D :D

[goodboy]

129. no no...I should've said, "Where is the democratic leadership in all this"

I'm not a deaniac, I suppored Wes Clark. I couldn't be happier though, that he is our DNC chair. So, that being said, this thread is about the democrats seizing the opportunity to finish the Pukes off for fucking good. nothing more.

[Beaverhausen]

131. Its the media, it isn't Dean or anyone else

the media is responsible for thebullshit framing of this whole issue.

When I saw Randall Terry interviewed on MSNBC this morning I couldn't believe it.

and Hannity last night...I know...I only wanted to see what he would say. I was NOT disappointed. He is THE biggest hipocrite there is.

[TrustingDog]

136. and where exactly would the rebuttals be aired? CNN? FOX? n/t

[goodboy]

138. What rebuttals? If you read the thread I'm not saying anything about

attacking on this issue, but using the weakened state of the Pukes to our advantage by saying things like:

"they're destroying your rights, they're creating a constitutional crisis, they're destroying your social security, they're killing your kids, they're the reason you'll soon pay 4 bucks for a gallon of gas, they're the reason there are no jobs for american workers, they're the reason you can't afford your prescriptions, they're the reason you don't have healthcare, they're the reason poverty has skyrocketed in this country."

[TrustingDog]

139. you know darn well that is not allowed on the MSM.

whoever said that would be cut off immediately and ruined by the press and pugs.

[JerseygirlCT]

141. We get into this one with them

and suddenly we're part of the problem, and somehow their equals on this. It's another political fight.

We're so far above their obvious and cynical machinations now. They really are hanging themselves. Let 'em. We'll keep our hands clean and focus ourselves on the real fights ahead.

[Egalia]

143. Dean in Tennessee

Damn, this is a long thread. I didn't have time to read it all, so please forgive me if I duplicate another post.

Dean was here in TN and he blasted Frist for his long distance diagnosis. I went to hear the Dr. speak (on the black side of town, there was no charge!)and thank the goddess there is a democrat with the courage to come to Red Country!

So what if our Spineless Governor (D-LOL) was too cowardly to greet Dean, there are plenty of ordinary people here in TN who couldn't get enough of him!

I blogged his visit to TN here:
http://guerillawomentn.blogspot.com/

[JerseygirlCT]

145. Oh I think that's great!

And as you say, as a doctor, he's uniquely qualified to hit Frist on that aspect of this.

I just don't think we win anything by making this Schiavo case the hill we die on, if you know what I mean. It's a sad, sad situation any way you twist it, and the public is already of our mind: that politicizing this was crass and low and snakey. I think we've won that battle, and ought to start focusing on what we want to do.

[madfloridian]

146. That is a wonderful blog. Good write-up of his visit and human side.

http://guerillawomentn.blogspot.com/

The media just does not give an insight there. Thanks so much for sharing.

You should make this a separate post. :hi:

[NYCGirl]

147. Thank you so much for the link to your wonderfully written blog!

Great read!

[madfloridian]

149. I truly love this comment you made.....well said.

SNIP..."Howard Dean has something that few Tennessee Democrats possess. He has the courage and conviction to speak his mind. Here in Tennessee, we are accustomed to democrats who say one thing to gays and another to straights, one thing to whites and another to Blacks, one thing to pro-choice constituents and another to anti-choice constituents. Dr. Dean presents a stark contrast to democrats who speak out of both sides of their mouth.

And that may be exactly why Governor Bredesen did not want to get too close to Howard Dean. If the Governor of Tennessee got too close to Howard Dean, he might look small...."

And may I say your description of TN Dems could be applied to Florida Dems as well.

[madfloridian]

150. I posted this separately in GD Politics. Hope you don't mind.

If you do, too late. ;-)

[goodboy]

151. what's that?

[NYCGirl]

153. Not you. MadFlor's referring to Egalia's blog. NT

[goodboy]

155. k..

[shance]

156. Terrific thread and blog***

Thanks for posting and keep up the great work in Tennessee!

[tsuki]

154. What do you people expect. TeeVee won't cover Dean. He is

talking with local newspapers that WILL talk to him, WANT to talk to him.

TeeVee is still upset that everyone found out about the tape, The Scream, was not an accurate account. That it was played over and over out of context. They don't want Dean on THEIR TeeVee screens.

Enough posts about "Where is Dean?"

If you have the magic formula about how to get him on TeeVee, then share.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

159. .