Should the term "bitch" and related phrases be forbidden on DU? (Thread 6)

[Skinner]

I think we need to come to some sort of consensus regarding the appropriateness of the term "bitch" on Democratic Underground. There seems to be a fair amount of disagreement on this issue, but I believe that it is possible to have a relatively civil discussion so that we can hopefully come to greater understanding of everyone's point of view. The question is:

On Democratic Underground, should we forbid the use of the term "bitch" to refer to women, and should we forbid related terms like "bitch slap?"

Please be aware that we are not going to forbid the use of the term "bitch" as a synonym for "complain bitterly," nor will we forbid the term "bitch" to mean "female dog." Those issues are not up for discussion. Also, to be clear... personal attacks against other members of Democratic Underground are not permitted, so it is already against the rules to call another member of DU a bitch.

To be more precise, the specific issues for discussion here are whether people should be permitted to use the term "bitch" when referring to high-profile political opponents, and whether members should be permitted to use the term "bitch slap" in almost any context.

I know that this is a highly-charged issue for many people, which is related to deeply-held progressive values including opposition to sexism, and support for free and open expression. However, we believe that it is possible to have this discussion without resorting to personal attacks and incivility, and we hope everyone will make an effort to participate in the spirit of mutual respect.

This is thread #6 on this subject. Here are links to Thread #1, Thread #2, Thread #3, Thread #4, and Thread #5.

[Mari333]

1. no. I say it all the time and Im a feminist n/t

[dflprincess]

61. I agree with Mari333

I'm a feminist and I use it too. And, I think there are more important things to discuss on this board.

[mzmolly]

I agree with Mary and DFL Princess, and I am a bitch...

:P

Bigger fish to fry folks.

[MrSlayer]

2. This is the thread that never ends...

yes it goes on and on my friends....

[NewHampster]

3. Hell yeah NO NO

But no

[bigbillhaywood]

New Hampster

Haven't heard that since I left Boston two years ago.

[citizen snips]

4. it's never going to end.

these bitching threads will never end.

[bpilgrim]

5. Doesn't this belong in the 'ask the admin' forum ;-)

or do we need a new one?

can't folks just filter it out themselves :shrug:

this censorship 'debate' is eating up a lot of valuable screen 'realestate'

:shrug:

peace

[kiahzero]

That's what the Ignore Thread button is for

Poof! It's gone!

[JohnLocke]

57. You can't ignore an admin's thread (nt).

[kiahzero]

6. Repost

We should be upset about the ideas expressed by those words, not the combination of vowels and consonants that form them.

Which is more offensive:

A) A person using the word "faggot" to refer to a homosexual friend, without malice or hatred?

B) A person using the word "homosexual" to refer to a homosexual, with malice and hatred?

I'd argue that B is vastly more offensive. A is removing the negative connotation from a word, whereas B is putting negative connotation where there was none before.

[Lizz612]

9. I agree

The connotation and the context are what makes a word offensive, not the word itself.

[bearfartinthewoods]

kiahzero and Lizz612

how about the context involved in "bitch-slapping"

[kiahzero]

26. Good context, given what the word ACTUALLY means

The word "bitchslap" refers to a supposedly submissive woman rising up and slapping a supposedly dominant man. It's all about throwing off an oppressor and standing up for yourself.

I think that's a good, positive context.

[slinkerwink]

no, it refers to a man slapping down his BITCH

[kiahzero]

72. From urbandictionary.com

bitchslap - overpowering backhanded slaps to the face and body, delivered by a supposedly docile female to a supposedly dominant male.

While there is another definition of the word, referring to a pimp slapping a prostitute, that's actually a pimpslap.

[cally]

113. Please include the rest of the definitions

Here they are:

Urban Dictionary definition of bitchslap:

bitchslap
7 votes

A slap administered by a pimp to his prostitute to keep her in line or punish her.

The pimp bitchslapped his whore for disobeying him.




overpowering backhanded slaps to the face and body, delivered by a supposedly docile female to a supposedly dominant male.

Sarah Connor bitchslapped her way out of the heavily male-guarded sanitarium.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bitchslap
6 votes

To smack a punk with the backside of one's hand

Kody would bitchslap pnut if he hit whores.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bitchslap
6 votes

To smack a punk with the basckside of ones hand

Kody would bitchslap Jayme if he hit whores.

Source: Ian, Feb 8, 2003
recommend for deletion | send to a friend

alldumb: the dumbest, coolest, craziest things on the internet go here.bitchslap
2 votes

A gentle slap usually against the rear of a female sexual partner as a show of dominance and a request for submission.

Jenny loved it when Dave would give her a bitchslap before lovemaking.



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bitchslap
1 vote

used to be trish stratus' finishing move at the WWE.

trish just bitchslapped brock lesnar and pinned him to get the victory.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bitchslap
1 vote

somethin i'm gonna do to beyonce'

did you see when beyonce got bitchslapped by that girl on the red carpet?


Beating the hell out of friends, by slapping them , out of the blue, with the palm of your hand in the face.

Wouter loves it when his friends gather around him, and bitchslap him, one by one, HARD.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bitchslap&f=1

bitch slap
50 votes

To open handedley slap someone. Denote disrespect for the person being bitch slapped as they are not worthy of a man sized punch. Suggests the slap was met with little resistance and much whining

Kieth owed me that $20 for weeks and I had to bitch slap the M.F. to get it back.

Source: Ken, Nov 29, 2002
recommend for deletion | send to a friend

Advertisement - Your message here for $5

Are you on Friendster?: Befriend Urban Dictionary (first name UrbanDictionary, last name com)Bitch Slap
12 votes

Slapping a (bitch) for unneccessary eyeballing a pimp

Example: Give me my money bitch. Ooh you looking at me. I'll bitch slap you.

Source: Big Daddy, Apr 9, 2003
recommend for deletion | send to a friend


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Bitch Slap
6 votes

To slap a bitch, to show the bitch what the fucks up. Can be applied to both male and female. A way of showing disrespect to a bitch.

Serial Killa Juggalos will bitch slap Feminem and any other ignorant bitch.

Source: Beast, Nov 18, 2003
recommend for deletion | send to a friend


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bitch slap
1 vote

To defeat unexpectedly (especially in an unusual or creative manner).

John Kerry bitch-slapped Howard Dean in the Primaries with his less emotional rhetoric.

Source: AbnormalBoy, Feb 13, 2004
recommend for deletion | send to a friend

Token White Guy T-Shirt for only $19: For the "TWG" on every basketball team.bitch slap
6 votes

commonly confused with pimp-slappimp-slap, however a bitch slap is similar to that of a weak homo slapping his gay lover.

Sheeet, mo fo, dat ain't no way to treat yo ho. I seen chodes wid more bitch-slap than dat.

Source: Pimpin'daLuv, Jun 26, 2003
recommend for deletion | send to a friend


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bitch slap
12 votes

When you are doggie style N a ugly bitch and she looks back again after being warned to not to turn around.

You look back here again ho and im gonna bitch slap yo a$$.

Source: anonymous, Apr 10, 2003
recommend for deletion | send to a friend


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bitch slap
no votes

Open handed strike delivered to people of far inferior physical size or strength to show they are not worthy of the time it takes to bunch up a fist and hit hard when a simple slap will do.

bitch slap yo' ass!

Source: Gumba Gumba, Mar 3, 2004
recommend for deletion | send to a friend

Family Guy T-shirt Sale: Sweet deals on Cool T-shirts at Wacky PlanetBITCH SLAP
no votes

To slap your bitch with your penis.

slap your girl on the ass with your penis

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bitch+slap&f=1

[kiahzero]

145. Most of those were not on the one that I had pulled up

So I did not see the one with 50 votes, which could easily be viewed as offensive to women.

However, you claim to want to "reclaim" the word and lessen the damage it does. Why not support the female-affirming definition? Wouldn't that work towards your stated goal?

What of my argument that only by also allowing men to use the positive word, will the damage ever be reduced to zero?

[cally]

174. I think you mistaking me for another poster

I've never wanted to 'reclaim' bitchslap. I find it horribly offensive. I don't want bitch banned at DU but I respectfully urge folks to not use it because it offends many.

[kiahzero]

180. Indeed I was

Thought you were slinkerwink for some reason. It might be that I'm working on a paper at the same time, so I'm not paying close attention here. Sorry!

[TankLV]

169. No, it refers to something similar to calling the OBJECT of one's scorn

an asshole, piece of shit, or other such phrase.

It does not mean I insult my mother, sister, niece or any other female, whether they are present or not.

None in my family or aquaintences would take it this way.

But there is a proper time and place for everything, and if I am at the dinner table, or a business meeting, topics of discussion do not contain ANY vulgarities. But if someone is behaving badly, directly insulting me or my friends or family or beliefs, then it's open season. The point is to recognize when it is proper - and there are plenty of times when it is not only proper but REQUIRED.

Just like there are proper times to fart and hold it in.

It's about being ladies and gentlemen.

[TankLV]

152. No - it means giving a hearty and brutal physical punishment to

THE INDIVIDUAL that is the object of the scorn.

If the context contained one or more woman doing something to another woman, then and only then, can it be taken as "a supposedly submissive woman rising up and slapping a supposedly dominant man" or other woman or a man to a woman.

[kiahzero]

166. ... that makes no sense

If the context contained one or more woman doing something to another woman, then and only then, can it be taken as "a supposedly submissive woman rising up and slapping a supposedly dominant man" or other woman or a man to a woman.

That makes no sense. How can a woman doing something to a woman be taken as a woman doing something to a man?

[Lizz612]

I said this in thread #5 but I will repost.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1357419&mesg_id=1357559

I have been called a bitch, and it has meant everything under the sun, except the original definition. The connotation has been demeaning, empowering, even complimentary. Its always about context. Frankly I don't care about what the history of the word is. I care about how its being used here and now.

Addressing the actual questions:
"should we forbid the use of the term "bitch" to refer to women"
I have never heard it here on DU in reference to women in general. I suppose Skinner means a phrase such as "I hate bitches." In this case the speaker obviously means bitchy women, but not just women. Posters seem to object because the noun is feminine when standing alone. To which I say, there is an equivalent, bastard. Yes the words came from different places, but now they mean roughly the same. I'm not for putting women above or below men, I'm for equality. Equal empowerment and equal bashing.

"should we forbid related terms like "bitch slap?""
Again, I care only about the current use of this word; a solid open handed slap across the face, sometimes leaving a red hand print. I have no problem with this. I've given a few of these when they were well deserved.

This isn't science where aluminum always means aluminum, this is culture and it changes. Words are part of culture, they change also.

[Crunchy Frog]

What do people here think of Al Franken's

use of the word "bitch slap" in the title of one of the chapters of his latest book?

The name of the chapter is "I Bitch-Slap Bernie Goldberg".

Does this make Al Franken to politically incorrect and sexist to be a subject of polite conversation on this board?

[NewHampster]

7. I think Skinner's just playing with his minions

So much for that cheap attempt at a thread never dying. Skinner is the master of his own house.

[arewethereyet]

8. I'm OK with it if you're discussing female dogs, otherwise no

[rumguy]

10. Skinner likes to watch us bitch at eachother

[bearfartinthewoods]

30. geezus...are you guys trying to be offensive?

why try and diminish the importance of the issue. talk about piling on ..............

[slinkerwink]

37. yes, they are----they continue to use words that are offensive to us

[slksln]

178. The topic is, IIRC,

whether the words should be BANNED from use on DU.

VelmaD, one of the other main advocates for your point of view here, has already stated that she doesn't support one. A few others in reading back in the previous threads have agreed that it should be and have since said little or nothing beyond that. (I apologize if I missed someone, I was trying to get main points relatively quickly)

Do you, slinkerwink, think that these words/phrases should be banned?
I'm assuming yes, since this is still a topic. But, I just want to clarify, since I figured that VelmaD wanted the words banned, when she has just posted that she never did (and I hope that I'm not misunderstanding that post??)

I think that clarification is necessary, because it seems to me that this has become a few people saying the same things repeatedly, which is only contributing to having 6, 7, 8, 9... threads on this.

Anyone else think that nothing has been accomplished, and that the same things that were being said in thread 1 are still being said now??

[slinkerwink]

183. I do want those words to be banned

why continue attacking women on their gender by using gender-specific insults? Can't we rise above them, and instead calling out women we don't like by referring to their behavior alone?

[Crunchy Frog]

175. I think some people just enjoy

getting offended. I honestly didn't see anything offensive in the previous post, just a little innocent humor.:shrug:

[jpgray]

11. This is ridiculous, and should be made the subject of fun

I have done so in this Lounge thread. Banning a word makes zero sense to me. Discouraging personal attacks makes plenty of sense. There is a line where people must stop defining everything and anything as a personal attack, and the wholesale banning of a word is way over that line.

[VelmaD]

17. Nice to know that you find the concerns of many women...

on this board so amusing.

Ridiculous...real original. One more of the old standbys to check off the list for today.

[jpgray]

36. You have a right to be concerned, but not a right to censor me

You can write me off as a bigot, a sexist, and a monster anytime you like. But that you think you DO have the right to censor what you don't like is what seems ridiculous to me.

[VelmaD]

48. My goal is not official censorship...

a point I think I've state repeatedly. My goal is to make people think about using the word before they do it. I'm a firm believer that most people want to be thought of as decent human beings. Most people don't want to offend others. I keep thinking if I can just get what's in my heart into words better that people will understand and choose not to use a word that offends many people.

[jpgray]

75. I share that view

I don't share the view that all distressing material or language should be censored, because there has to be a point where you draw the line. The reason DUers don't run around calling all the women here 'bitches' and all the African-Americans 'niggers' isn't due to fear of the rules or PC-ness, it's due to the fact that DU as a community is against sexism and racism and would refuse to tolerate such a person in the forum. No rules are needed for the specific words a racist or sexist poster uses--such a person should be ostracized without much moderator interference, barring other breaches of the rules.

Skinner and co. have provided 'ignore' and 'hide' options to protect the sensibilities AND the speech of DUers. When something offends you, you can speak out against it, hide the thread, or ignore the poster. None of these infringe on the offending party's ability to speak how he/she likes. All of these seem better options to me than outlawing words that offend us.

[VelmaD]

88. Unforunately we don't agree on whether...

DU as a community is against sexism. As some of the other women on these threads have noted, we often feel like it is tolerated and hitting alert doesn't do much good.

I can't just use the hide or ignore options...if we all did that then the people who say the most egregiously sexist things would never be held acocuntable for it because we wouldn't know about it. I want to know when someone says something really offensive. I want to know who they are and I want to be able to hold their feet to the fire about it. I want them to be the subject of public scorn. I want the rule about sexism enforced. That's all.

[jpgray]

105. Then you're doing the right thing by speaking out

I had no idea this problem existed here for women DUers. For all the grief you may feel you are getting for it (I personally have a BIG problem with banning words), you can bet DUers will think twice about using the term now. I think (up until this point) that I've used the term only handful of times here, and in no case do I remember using it in a sexist way.

But I think the use of the word is more important than the word itself. When Jon Stewart says 'cunt', I don't think sexist. When Dave Chappelle says 'nigger', I don't think racist. If I were offended by either, I would go after it, but I won't argue that the offending item and all similar entities should be removed because I am offended. I don't HAVE that right, but I do have the right to make a nuisance of myself when I am offended, and frankly the idea of outlawing 'bitch' is quite offensive to me.

[VelmaD]

119. Here's a question for you to ponder...

would you think it was ok of Jon Stewart used the "n" word?

There are other considerations with Chappelle using it since he is black. But would it be ok for Stewart, a white man, to use it.

If you would be uncomfortable witn Stewart using the "n" word then why is "c" ok for him even though he's male?

[jpgray]

142. Yes! We have something called the first amendment

No matter what, he has the right to use it if he wants, so long as doing so does not infringe on the rights of others. If he uses it in a very offensive way, he will be in serious trouble. But just as the offensive nature of 'cunt' or 'bitch' can be discharged depending on context, so too can that of 'nigger'. I saw no women walking out of the movie 'Sweet Sixteen', despite ample use of the word 'cunt' by males to describe other males. The girl I saw it with made no mention of being offended at such. When I watched a Hispanic comedian's act with one of my roommates, this comedian made use of the term 'nigger' and there was no offense taken.

It's not the word that offends, it's the people that do so.

[VelmaD]

157. Honestly, I didn't ask about his right to use it...

I agree that the first amendment gives people the right to be offensive. What I was more curious about was how it would make you feel. Would you be as comfortable with a white man using the "n" word as you would that one that rhymes with punt? :)

[jpgray]

173. I said before, but the answer is 'yes'

What changes the comfort level is how the words are used, not the race of the person who is using them. That is why I gave the example of the Hispanic comedian. A word all by itself can't do much of anything.

[Lizz612]

150. Are you advocating

a double standard for speach based upon "sex and race because they are easy visible diffences"?

[VelmaD]

159. Nope

I was asking the other poster to contemplate his feelings about comedians using two terms that some consider offensive.

[Lizz612]

165. Okay

I jumped the gun, sorry.

[ant]

64. is banning a last resort here?

I'm curious about what your perceptions are with regards to how women are treated when they do try to raise these concerns on an individual basis. I agree that banning a word doesn't make sense. I prefer to treat each case as it comes up. HOWEVER, after seeing the way women who raise these concerns here are being treated I can't help but wonder if these threads aren't just an example of what each individual struggle is like for them.

I get the feeling the requests for a ban are being made by exasperated people who just feel there's nothing else they can do reach certain people on the forum.

[slinkerwink]

70. sometimes I feel like it's hopeless to try to get others to empathize

and that making my point over and over again is the only way I can do to try and reach the administrators.

[DS1]

89. could it be possible that you don't have much of a point?

[ant]

154. wow

Seriously?

What do you believe her point IS, exactly? You don't see any validity at all in the idea that women might find that word offensive?

Do you not even care that people who are supposed to be on your team are feeling this way?

[VelmaD]

76. I never requested a ban

As to how I have been treated when I raise these concerns. Like Shit.

About a week ago someone on this board referred to me as a "repressed, prudish, neo-con" because I objected to a thread stating that Condi Rice needed to get laid with the implication that it would improve her job performance.

I have been told my concerns are not important or are "off-topic". I have been called a feminazi. I was told I was insulting someone for calling them a sexist. :eyes: I don't even alert on the personal attacks...I prefer for them to stand for the whole board to see the kind of behavior some people engage in.

[slinkerwink]

91. It's amazing at the angry backlash from some people here

whenever we speak up against sexism in here.

[ant]

146. we need a guardian angels sort of group

I don't know the history here, but do you approach these incidents alone or are there other people there to back you up? And we should be hitting alert - how else will people learn? Seriously, I said to slinkerwink that while it's probably true that a single woman is easy to ingore or brush aside, a whole bunch of them might eventually get the point across. If I had seen that Rice thread I would've definitely been in there with you. Maybe if some of us got together and acted as a sort of "education team" we could get somewhere with this.

Assuming, of course, that the people who make these comments are interested in understanding sexism at all. If they're not, well, perhaps DU isn't the right community for feminists.

[jpgray]

I respect the women DUers I've seen raise this issue

But at the same time I disagree that banning the word is at all the proper action to take.

[amazona]

12. OK, OK, all right already, I'll vote...no, don't ban it

We already have a rule not to call each other such a name.

But to make a rule against muttering the word amongst ourselves about our political opponents? It seems a bit much to make a rule against calling members of the dark side a naughty name.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Using that theory

Can you call Colin Powell a "nigger?"

I could use more examples, but I'll leave it at that. If you can, you might as well close down. If you can't, then there are limits on offensive speech. If there are limits, they need to apply equally.

[mouse7]

31. No.

thanks for dropping the n-bomb on the conversation. The n-word is considered taboo and offensive in all usages.

Thanks for playing. We have some nice parting gifts for you....

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. As an African-American

I can use that example because I live with it every day.

It's EXACTLY how many women feel when these other words are used.

[mouse7]

90. No... you can't... not in "mixed" company

Sorry. I saw the CSPAN Booknotes from the African-Amercian author of the n-word book. The only usage that is tolerable is by Africans-Americans in the presence of only other African-Americans.

[bearfartinthewoods]

163. why are you so willing to abide by one AA guy about nigger

but so obstinate about accomadating a dozen women and men about bitch?

[jpgray]

42. Of course! But DUers would shun you and the community would ostracize you

This doesn't need to be regulated, the community can self-regulate on that. If someone spouted racist/sexist rhetoric, then DUers would not respond favorably. Just using the word 'nigger' or the word 'bitch' does NOT constitute racist or sexist behavior.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Depending on how you use the word

It does indeed constitute "racist or sexist behavior." Again, don't ban the word. We can still bitch at one another, but don't use it to reference women because the post and the poster will get deleted.

[jpgray]

116. True, but outlawing even one *meaning* of the word I still disagree with

I personally do not choose to use the word in that way, but I would rather DUers regulate themselves on this point. If a DUer were to use 'nigger' or 'bitch' in a terribly offensive way, I would want nothing to do with that DUer, and I imagine very few others would give him/her the time of day either.

[mouse7]

27. This all blew up because these words were used for Condi Rice

Personal insults get immediately deleted. It was the "Condi Rice is a _______" threads that made this all go berserk.

Like I said earlier.... I called Condi an asshole about the whole 9/111 Commission mess and got called a misogynist because it. Same type of thing for a bunch of other good liberal DU members.

[skooooo]

13. I think "bitch slap" is......

....pretty offensive, and for that reason, I don't use it myself. However, I don't feel comfortable asking that other refrain from using it.

Saying things like "Shawn Hannity is a bitch" doesn't offend me.

AND from what the moderator says, I would assume that commenting that something "is a bitch" in that it's unfortunate or difficult would be in bounds.

I would hope that none of us would go out of the way to use words that might offend others. I don't think the word is on par with n*gger, because that has really only one meaning.

[NoPasaran]

14. Ye Gads! Is this still going on?

I don't use that word to refer to women. I think it reflects poorly on those who do use it. I hope we don't end up with a list of words we can't say on DU.

[Ksec]

15. My problem lies with people acting like we are children

to be babysitted by moderators. Back away and let things happen. Problems will usually solves themselves .

Lets all be adults and be treated as such

[slinkerwink]

16. YES, ban that word!

There are many male members here in DU who defends their use of sexist terms like, "bitch" "slut" and "whore." What I find shocking is that many of you have failed to see the hurt and sexism you are perpetuating by using sexist terms like these. There are some male members who say that the word "bitch" is not sexist because it can be applied to both genders. That assumption is wrong because the origin of the word "bitch" is a female dog, one who breeds to have puppies. There we have the initial suggestion that breeding is the only good thing a female is for. The term "bitch" became popular in England, and was used by men to insult a woman on her gender, that she was reduced to nothing more than the sum of her parts, breasts and a vagina.

As the word "bitch" evolved, it still was used as an insult to women who were independent, assertive, or spoke back. "To bitch" was meant to convey the image of a nagging, whining woman, thus perpetuating the sexism in the word. Also, when men call another man a "bitch," it is meant as an insult to dominate and emasculate the man by calling him a whiny woman. Therefore, when men use the word "bitch," they are the dominant gender, and it is always meant to put down the woman based on her gender.

The word "bitchslap" meant the act of a man using violence against a woman, thus subduing her. Whenever a man says that a man "bitchslapped" another person, he is celebrating the indirect subordination of the woman by the thought of emasculating a man or subordinating a woman through this phrase. That is why even when men use "bitchslap" casually, they are perpetuating sexism because they are the dominant gender. Those of you who refuse to see this, are doing so on purpose to defend the continued usage of it to put down women based on their gender, not their behavior.

When men ask why women can use the word, "bitch," the answer is simple. Women are coopting the word "bitch" to lessen the damage behind it. This is precisely what African-Americans have done with the word "n*gger." They cooptd that word and made it positive. Hispanic-Americans and other minorities have done the same with racial and homophobic epithets. So when a woman refers to herself as a "bitch," she is saying that she is proud of being independent, assertive, or for speaking back. She has imbued a positive context into this word. When a man complains he can't use the word "bitch" to insult a woman based on her gender, should he also have the right to insult a black person by using the word "n*gger" based on his race? The answer is no. That word is meant to hurt and dehumanize black people, and that is precisely what men are doing by using the word "bitch."

If you don't like a woman, please do not call her "bitch," "slut," or "whore" since they ALL are attacks on her gender, not her behavior. If a woman is mean, call her mean. If she's incompetent like Condileeza Rice, call her incompetent. Why even debase yourself, and the intelligence of this progressive board here by continuing to use gender-specific insults? That is precisely what many of you are doing here.

Before you think of responding to me and defending the use of sexist terms, I want you to go out and look a five year old girl in the face and call her a "bitch" or "whore." If you don't want to do that, think about the message she gets from hearing other people use gender-specific insults. The message she'll get is that it's bad to be a woman, to be independent, assertive, and speak up for herself will mean getting called "bitch." That is the message men send to women of all ages when men continue to use gender-specific insults like "bitch," "whore," or "slut." Be an ADULT, be a REAL Democrat who cares about others, and be all that by not using gender-specific insults. After all, one of the definitions of a "liberal" or "progressive" is the capacity to empathize with others.


Skinner....I'm getting sick of those continuous threads----can you please just discuss this with the administrators or decided to make up your mind? Let's try a trial experiment of not using the word "bitch" here, and let me tell you, the environment here in DU would feel a lot safer for the women who visit here.

[mouse7]

52. Let's not and say we didn't

The voting was 86% against banning the word. We have a very vocal minority claiming posting in bulk is sufficient reason to impose their own personal biases upon the group.

[slinkerwink]

59. so it's FORGET the minority? then forget american democracy

[WillyBrandt]

63. Banning doesn't seem to be popular among females on DU either.

Given the scant evidence we have. And don't dodge the issue and pretend there aren't too sides to the issue worth weighing.

[bearfartinthewoods]

93. four sides

ban it
don't ban any word
don't ban it but let us protest to try and discourage it's use
i can use it if i want to and you can't say a world in protest

[WillyBrandt]

98. Don't ban it. Use it at your own risk.

Very simple.

[VelmaD]

104. So, do we get carte blanche...

to be as offensive as we want to be in responding to people who use the word without fear of the mods doing anything to us? Just asking? :evilgrin:

[WillyBrandt]

108. That's a good question. I don't know.

[VelmaD]

124. Hee...could be fun...

I could be WAY more offensive without ever using a gender, racial, or ethnic slur than the people who have to resort to that kind of thing. Bwahahaha :-)

[WillyBrandt]

129. The word "guttersnipe" always works :)

But I think that might be a somewhat fair solution.

[VelmaD]

170. I prefer scum-sucking bottom-feeder personally

Or ill-mannered asshat

[bearfartinthewoods]

179. i;m worried that protests will be deemed disruptions and

our complaints will be deleted.

[mouse7]

141. I think it's about being "offensive" about reThugs

Persoanl attacks have always been against the rules and will continue to be.

[mouse7]

100. Correct....and spare me the Constitutional theatrics

Nodody is ordering you to go to a particular church or locking you in Gitmo.

[drfemoe]

71. Who are the women leaving in droves?

... because of all the "sexism" here?

Any of these?
DU thread

[JohnLocke]

92. "The environment would feel a lot safer for the women"? WTF?

[slinkerwink]

97. seeing the word "bitch" being bandied about in here like

is a lot like seeing the "n*gger" word being bandied about on freeper sites. It doesn't exactly make you feel like the community is friendly towards women.

[JohnLocke]

107. The word "bitch" has never been used toward a DU member w/o punishment.

:eyes:

[slinkerwink]

I've been called a bitch here....

:shrug:

[JohnLocke]

126. And the post was deleted, no?

[slinkerwink]

135. it was

[mouse7]

151. So what were you expecting? A public DU caning?

The insult was deleted. That's good. That's the way it's supposed to work.

DU doesn't do stonings.

[JohnLocke]

171. Cruxificition?

[mouse7]

110. More n-bombs from slinkerwink

Nobody is using the hideously-offensive rhetoric in this discussion remotely close to that Slinkerwink is. It's completely over the top and unnecessary.

[curse10]

155. it's just inflammatory rhetoric

:-)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

18. No...

I'm a woman and a feminist and a big believer in free speech.

[bigbillhaywood]

19. "Bitch" not the same as "nigger" or "faggot"

The question should not be whether or not "bitch" is seen as a derogatory term from a feminist critique, but rather do most women (or people) for that matter find the term to be a highly offensive bigoted slur. The words "faggot" or "nigger" leave absolutely no room for debate. Can we seriously argue that most women in the general population (outside of Smith College) would view being called a "bitch" as painful and offensive as a homosexual being called a "faggot"? If you want to test my hypothesis, try calling a woman a "bitch" then try calling a black woman a "nigger"-- see which lands you in the hospital (deservedly so) faster.

The fact that the posters who compare "bitch" to "nigger" leave the word "bitch" untouched, but write "n*gger", reveal that they themselves understand there is a fundamental difference between these two words. One is fundamental to the discourse of white oppression in this country, the other is an incidental footnote to male oppression. More importantly, one is generally regarded as a bigoted slur, the other is not.

I think it is important for progressives to stay within the language of ordinary people or we will lose credibility. I'm a good example. I'm from a working-class background, and although I worked my way through college, I'm pretty much still in that world. When I first got to college, I turned right-wing because I regarded lefties as spoiled rich white kids with their heads in the clouds, with ideas completely useless beyond the ivory tower. My experience as a worker and union activist eventually changed my tune.

My point is, don't fall into the P.C. Liberal stereotype. Fight like hell and don't overanalyze the words you use. That will only drive angry white working-class people into the hands of the reactionaries-- and like it or not you need those angry white working-class people

[arewethereyet]

23. yes, it is

[kiahzero]

44. Someone needs to learn the difference between argument and assertion

"Yes, it is" is an assertion - it is simply a claim.

"Yes, it is, because of ..." with ... replaced with a reason would be an argument.

One is valid, one isn't. Care to wager which is which?

[arewethereyet]

85. yes, it is as they are all derogatory terms when used out of definition

Sure some women use the term as self desription or directed at others same as some blacks refer to themselves and others of their race with the other term. Homesexuals are no different.

None of this makes it right. If a thing is not right then its wrong.

Of course some prefer rationalization to truth.

[kiahzero]

115. They are derogatory terms only if you ascribe derogatory definitions

How can they be derogatory if they do not have a derogatory meaning?

[slinkerwink]

28. yes, it is a slur

and yes, it is on the same level as racial epithets, because it puts down women.

[WillyBrandt]

38. It's absolutely not on the same level as "nigger" or "faggot"

And only some paroxysm of theory could suggest otherwise. "Nigger" compresses such a level of hatred and horrid history within it; if "bitch" is a punch in the nose, "nigger" is a whack with a damn sledge hammer.

To draw false equivalencies between slurs is to do no justice to your argument. To draw these equivalencies on the planes of abstraction is to purposefully miss the point: the visceral power of these words differ. Have a white person call a black woman a bitch--and then have him call her a nigger, and see which one burns more.

[slinkerwink]

49. MuddleoftheRoad is African-American, and he understands how

us women feel when we hear the word "bitch" because of the power of hate and sexism behind it.

[WillyBrandt]

55. That addresses nothing at all. "Us women" is a little too quick

Since so many on here, and off of here, seem to disagree with you. Moreover, the "nigger = bitch" equivalency still just wallows in unreality. It's not true.

[bearfartinthewoods]

79. unless you are both black and female, i don't see how you

can make such a statment..even for yourself, let alone others.

[JohnLocke]

81. I recognize generalizing statements about groups even if I'm not a member.

[WillyBrandt]

84. An ounce of common sense will tell you

that they are different. Tangles of theory might not, but just basic historical and cultural awareness make clear the difference between the two words.

[curse10]

176. "us women?"

you don't speak for this woman, nor it seems a good deal of women on this board (let alone women outside of this internet bubble)

[curse10]

177. "us women?"

you don't speak for this woman, nor it seems a good deal of women on this board (let alone women outside of this internet bubble)

[tishaLA]

50. Correct. And excellent feminist scholars have repudiated

the "like race" mode of argumentation. It's so cliched, obvious, and lacking any sense of historical perspective. It also pretends the words "nigger" and "bitch" have never been paired, or that women who might be known in some contexts as "bitches" are called "niggers" in others.

But let's not let people who are experts in these matters get in the way of a good tirade.

[bearfartinthewoods]

74. so, are you among f the defenders of the punch in the nose word?

just because it's less hurtful than the sledge to the head?

[WillyBrandt]

77. I don't think it should be banned. But to purposefully ignore degree

Is dishonest. Seriously dishonest--and to draw these false analogies for the purpose of advancing censorship is pretty crappy in my view.

[smirkymonkey]

143. How can you presume to know what

kind of impact the word bitch has on a woman. For many women, the visceral power of the word bitch may sting just as much as nigger for a black person and faggot for a homosexual. Do you happen to be a member of any of these groups? If not, then you are in NO position to judge how these words make their targets feel, and it is extremely arrogant for you to assume otherwise.

[JohnLocke]

39. ONCE AGAIN: they are NOT the same.

Terms such as "nigger," are applied towards blacks simply because they are blacks. The term "bitch" is not applied solely to women, nor does it reflect an immutable female characteristic of complaining (to imply so is sexist in itself). Therefore, the analogy is bullshit.

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. Not so, John

Even the "N" word has crept into language and is used not just against us or by us any more. The hip-hop abuse of the phrase means even on places like the Chapelle Show that the word is used by others or to reference others.

[WillyBrandt]

68. It retains its power nontheless

You hear the N word often, on TV and wherever, but it still retains its hateful power in the proper context. And it's a far more hateful power than "bitch" can ever bring with it.

[bigbillhaywood]

87. The fact we are even debating this in a civil fashion...

Shows there are differences between these words. Would anyone here even debate about whether it's okay to call Condoleeza Rice the "N word"? Hell no. That person would be booted without question. Women can disagree about how offensive they find the word "bitch", but as an Arab-American let me tell you, there is no debating about whether or not to deck someone if they called me a "sandnigger". Unless it's a friend pulling my chain, they're going to the hospital quick.

[VelmaD]

95. No, it just means that sexism is still aceptable...

in our society to a degree that overt racism is not.

[bigbillhaywood]

112. So then that means all the self-proclaimed female feminist

posters on the board that said they have little or no problem with the word are actually sexist, but just don't realize it?

I think it's possible to say black oppression and female oppression are both pervasive, while acknowledging that the circumstances and histories are different and without saying one is worse than the other. I think that you can also acknowledge that these words have different histories and evoke tangibly different responses by their intended targets. In other words, the words do not carry the same weight, even if the respective traditions of bigotry from which they derive is more or less equal.

[slinkerwink]

121. that's because they have the right to call themselves that

like african-americans have the right to call themselves "n*gger". It's a way of coopting the word and lessening the damage that comes with it. However, it's still wrong for a white man to call a black man a "n*gger" as well as it is wrong for a man to call a woman a "bitch" because those are hurtful, hateful words meant to put them down based on their race or gender.

[bigbillhaywood]

136. Well...

Many of the posters simply said that they didn't have a big problem with the word, not specifically that only they or other women had the right to say it as you suggest. But that wasn't really the point of the last post. Can you acknowledge that although both terms may be bigoted, but one is definitely worse than the other?

[VelmaD]

139. I absolutely agree with your last paragraph

One can talk about racism and sexism without it turning into a contest over who has it worse. My point was that overtly racist language is not tolerated in our society while slurs against women are. To see the word bitch used on broadcast television while racial and ethnic putdowns would not be tolerated is a thorn in my side. It isn't just the "n" word. Slurs against other ethnic groups that don't have quite the same power as that word are also not really tolerated in mainstream culture. But slurs against women, like bitch, are.

[bigbillhaywood]

162. Ahhh...

Who says consensus method is a joke? I get what you are saying here. I agree that both words come from bigotry, and I can agree with you that "bitch" SHOULD be considered as offensive as "nigger" (although, to be quite honest, I use the word a lot-- old habits, even bad ones, die hard). All I was trying to say is that the words aren't the same, and I felt casual comparison was more rhetoric than fact.

[mouse7]

41. Only in YOUR opinion

The fact that you feel an opinion on an issue does not elevate it to a fact or evidence.

[JohnLocke]

132. Heh. Some feel that way (nt).

[curse10]

164. LMAO

Oh. My. Gawd.

I can't believe someone would actually compare "bitch" to "nigger" or "faggot." Holy fucking shit. I thought I'd seen it all on this board.

Maybe "cunt." That's an appropriate comparison. But "bitch"? Overboard rhetoric, once again. Why am I not surprised?

[LiviaOlivia]

29. Bullshit

Yes bitch is the same.

[bigbillhaywood]

58. No

No Klansmen ever burned a cross in a woman's yard and called her a "bitch" (unless used in conjunction with a more serious slur). Pro-lifers don't go around talking about "bitches" having too many freedoms. Some liberals and feminists consider this an offensive bigoted slur-- fine. But not all women (just read the board for proof). Find me a black person who does not find "nigger" a bigoted slur and I will concede your point.

[LiviaOlivia]

140. Please, what crap.

misogyny is misogyny
racism is racism
Offensive name-calling is offensive name-calling

[VelmaD]

33. You are wrong...

about why I spell out bitch but not the "n" word. As a white person I feel I have NO RIGHT to use the "n" word. I won't use it. I won't even spell it. It's offensive and I won't even accidentally offend a black person by using it.

As a woman I feel more like I have a right to openly debate the word bitch. Though I would like to see the day when liberals of good faith refer to the "b" word.

[tishaLA]

66. Of course typing it or creating shorthand

has the same effect. We all know that "the *n* word" stands for something else and we all know what it is. Using a shorthand is a way of iterating it without "guilt."

[VelmaD]

101. Or it's a way of talking about the word...

while letting the African-Americans on the board know that you would never want to hurt them by saying it.

[tishaLA]

120. A better way of doing that

would be to drop all references to it.

[Rationality]

109. Holy smacks, even the newbies get it!

Well said bigbillhaywood :yourock:

BTW, the Democratic Underground welcomes you!

[Rationality]

118. Slinkerwink, note that I called bigbillhaywood a "newbie."

Now, in the logic you presented, I slurred bigbillhaywood by calling him that.

Should we ban "newbie?"

[slinkerwink]

123. newbie isn't a sexist term

:eyes:

[Rationality]

133. Only gender counts? ((n/t))

[slinkerwink]

137. sexism, racism, and homophobia counts in here

[Rationality]

149. Yet creed and financial status is fair game?

So I can't say bitch, nigger, or faggot. Yet, kike, raghead, and broke-ass bum are acceptable... interesting.

[WillyBrandt]

156. Why not ban all the posters who use Zionist as a synonym for "Jew"

And use one to implicitly attack the other.

(The reason why is because we shouldn't be banning shit left and right. But nevermind that...)

[bigbillhaywood]

122. Thanks

[ant]

131. this argument doesn't hold

You're using social attitudes as the standard when the whole point being made by those who oppose the word is that it reflects social attitudes they find problematic. The struggles of women are marginalized relative to those of other oppressed groups, so of course people have a more negative reaction to nigger or faggot than they do to bitch. Society as whole - through media, entertainment, online forums - continues to say sexism is OK, or at least "not as bad" as the other isms.

If we want an OBJECTIVE standard we should turn to the law, meaning: do you think calling someone a nigger would get you fired/sued but calling someone a bitch would not?

Any volunteers willing to test this theory for us?

I guarantee you that any woman referred to as a bitch, whore, cunt, WHATEVER would be able to successfully sue for harrassment. In the eys of the law, bitch really IS the same as nigger.

[bigbillhaywood]

148. The law has never been

a good measure of what is right. Your argument was pretty good up until that point, then you lost me. Again, I'm talking about the impact of these words on the street, not the ivory tower or courthouses.

[ant]

160. there was a time

When nigger didn't have much of an impact on the street. Good thing times have changed, huh?

And my argument still holds. You may not agree that the law is a better standard than social attitudes, but that doesn't support the use of social attitudes. It just discounts the use of the law.

[bigbillhaywood]

181. I don't know what street that was on...

but I'm willing to bet it still did matter if you were black. But I guess I'm just guessing as I'm a young guy, relatively speaking. But living in a mixed-race working class inner city neighborhood, I can tell you that if that word is used in "mixed company" on THIS street, someone IS GETTING HURT-- and I don't mean feelings.

[smirkymonkey]

167. I don't think it is up for a man to decide

whether the term "bitch" is as offensive to women as the other words are to their intended targets. Your description of the word "bitch" as an "incedental footnote to male oppression" is offensive in itself.

Could it be because all those other derogatory terms CAN and sometimes do apply to men (nigger, faggot, kike, etc.)? I don't think the difference is so fundamental.

[JohnLocke]

20. JohnLocke/slinkerwink flaming sub-thread continued:

----
slinkerwink
----
There are many male members here in DU who defends their use of sexist terms like, "bitch" "slut" and "whore." What I find shocking is that many of you have failed to see the hurt and sexism you are perpetuating by using sexist terms like these. There are some male members who say that the word "bitch" is not sexist because it can be applied to both genders. That assumption is wrong because the origin of the word "bitch" is a female dog, one who breeds to have puppies. There we have the initial suggestion that breeding is the only good thing a female is for. The term "bitch" became popular in England, and was used by men to insult a woman on her gender, that she was reduced to nothing more than the sum of her parts, breasts and a vagina.
As the word "bitch" evolved, it still was used as an insult to women who were independent, assertive, or spoke back. "To bitch" was meant to convey the image of a nagging, whining woman, thus perpetuating the sexism in the word. Also, when men call another man a "bitch," it is meant as an insult to dominate and emasculate the man by calling him a whiny woman. Therefore, when men use the word "bitch," they are the dominant gender, and it is always meant to put down the woman based on her gender.
The word "bitchslap" meant the act of a man using violence against a woman, thus subduing her. Whenever a man says that a man "bitchslapped" another person, he is celebrating the indirect subordination of the woman by the thought of emasculating a man or subordinating a woman through this phrase. That is why even when men use "bitchslap" casually, they are perpetuating sexism because they are the dominant gender. Those of you who refuse to see this, are doing so on purpose to defend the continued usage of it to put down women based on their gender, not their behavior.
When men ask why women can use the word, "bitch," the answer is simple. Women are coopting the word "bitch" to lessen the damage behind it. This is precisely what African-Americans have done with the word "n*gger." They cooptd that word and made it positive. Hispanic-Americans and other minorities have done the same with racial and homophobic epithets. So when a woman refers to herself as a "bitch," she is saying that she is proud of being independent, assertive, or for speaking back. She has imbued a positive context into this word. When a man complains he can't use the word "bitch" to insult a woman based on her gender, should he also have the right to insult a black person by using the word "n*gger" based on his race? The answer is no. That word is meant to hurt and dehumanize black people, and that is precisely what men are doing by using the word "bitch."
If you don't like a woman, please do not call her "bitch," "slut," or "whore" since they ALL are attacks on her gender, not her behavior. If a woman is mean, call her mean. If she's incompetent like Condileeza Rice, call her incompetent. Why even debase yourself, and the intelligence of this progressive board here by continuing to use gender-specific insults? That is precisely what many of you are doing here.
Before you think of responding to me and defending the use of sexist terms, I want you to go out and look a five year old girl in the face and call her a "bitch" or "whore." If you don't want to do that, think about the message she gets from hearing other people use gender-specific insults. The message she'll get is that it's bad to be a woman, to be independent, assertive, and speak up for herself will mean getting called "bitch." That is the message men send to women of all ages when men continue to use gender-specific insults like "bitch," "whore," or "slut." Be an ADULT, be a REAL Democrat who cares about others, and be all that by not using gender-specific insults. After all, one of the definitions of a "liberal" or "progressive" is the capacity to empathize with others.
----
drfemoe
-----
Have you had some kind of conversion? I know what you were writing a few months ago, and it is miles from here. If you did, I'm happy for you to realize sexual harassment when you see it. However, I do not think people using these words in the impersonal way they are used at DU constitutes harassment. I AM sorry to see that apparently you may be overcompensating by going in the extreme opposite direction.
I'm sure this couldn't be part of a Liebermania style, take a whack at DU. Could it?
----
slinkerwink
----
no, it's not part of a Liebermania style at all
I don't think I'm overcompensating. I never felt encouraged to speak up about my own views on sexism in here before I had a deep discussion with my friends that opened my eyes how to if I stayed silent about my own views, that I would be helping the perpetuation of sexism in here. I've begun to see that in standing up for myself, I've been called a "bitch" "feminazi" and "cunt."
----
JohnLocke
----
24. Calling someone a "bitch" does not equate to calling someone a cunt.
No matter how loud or often you say it, it's not true.
----
slinkerwink
----
28. it has the same effect of putting down women based on their gender
----
JohnLocke
----
35. Invalid comparion.
Terms such as "nigger," "kike," "wop," "spick," "wetback," "chink," "mick," "gook," "cunt," etc., are applied in a derogatory manner toward members of a population (Jews, females, homosexuals, Asians, Hispanics, etc.) simply because of the fact that they they are members of that population. An example of this is the word 'nigger' -- a term used in connection with an immutable characteristic in a single context.
In contrast, words like "bitch" are applied on a gender-neutral basis, because of one's behavior. Hence, Sean Hannity or Kathleen Parker could be an "ultraconservative bitch." Call me crazy, but I believe I should be able to call him that without being considered a bigot who refers to females as "cunts," blacks as 'niggers,' ethnic Chinese as 'chinks,' homosexuals as 'fags,' etc.
Blanket bans on certain words are foolish. I say allow the moderators to judge the appropriateness of a word on a case-by case basis.
----
slinkerwink
----
48. please read my post carefully, post #5 as to why it is NOT
gender-neutral.
----
JohnLocke
----
59. By those standards, the word "testimony" would be considered sexist.
That assumption is wrong because the origin of the word "bitch" is a female dog, one who breeds to have puppies. There we have the initial suggestion that breeding is the only good thing a female is for. The term "bitch" became popular in England, and was used by men to insult a woman on her gender, that she was reduced to nothing more than the sum of her parts, breasts and a vagina.
So? Under Roman law, to speak under oath in front of a court was called "testimony," because the man (no women were allowed to testify) would swear to tell the truth on his testicles. Over time, however, the world's legal systems grew more enlightened, women were allowed to take part in legal activities, and the word 'testify' came to mean anyone who spoke under oath before a court.
My point is, despite any original constructions, of the word 'bitch' (and it's derivative, 'bitch-slap) over time it's meaning is changed. We're not all stuck back reading 'Canterbury Tales.' Words, like all of culture, changes over time, and 'bitch' is no exception.
-----
slinkerwink
----
63. but the fact is that "bitch" IS still used as a sexist epithet
----
JohnLocke
----
73. 'Bitch' refers to one's actions, not to one's gender.
----
slinkerwink
----
79. no, it is to one's GENDER....
----
JohnLocke
----
91. Any empirical evidence?
----
slinkerwink
----
94. it's in the dictionary-----three out of four definitions show it's based on the female gender.
----
JohnLocke
120. And of course you don't cite the dictionary because there is none.
Please cite a dictionary in which three out of four definitions are bigoted toward human females because they are female.
----

[slinkerwink]

25. it's slinkerwink

[JohnLocke]

51. Fixed, sorry.

[citizen snips]

46. Everbody has been called a bitch.

It happens a lot at my school.

Here is the point if you hear the word bitch just get over it because it is not worth the time and the stress.

[WillyBrandt]

22. Are we just going for some DU self-parody?

Good God. Are we looking to become the caricature wingnuts paint of liberalism? Would we deny Rick James a seat at the DU table?

As for that poll that got locked--85% voted no. Yeah, yeah, it's of dubious value--but suppose than 50% of the respondents were women. Even then a majority of women on DU were against the banning.

C'mon this is an easy call. Don't ban the word, and don't ban those who call out people who use the word. And keep the ignore feature on.

[PartyPooper]

24. What would Shakespeare say? "A rose by any other name is still a rose."

:eyes:

[latebloomer]

32. No!

I'm a woman and a feminist, and I have no problem with the word.

[slinkerwink]

34. I'm a woman and a feminist too....

and I do have a problem with the word.

[WillyBrandt]

43. And so the compromise is to ban the word? Err on the side of the censor.

[latebloomer]

67. I understand your points

but I do not react to them the way you do. To me, the word "bitch" is used to convey the idea of a certain kind of woman. For a man of that sort, I would use "prick", "dickhead" or "asshole." Two out of three of those words are not gender-neutral.

[slinkerwink]

73. I think that using gender-specific insults help perpetuate sexism here

and it's one reason why so many women here don't feel safe about speaking up. I've gotten private PMs from other members who were too afraid to speak up in a thread like this.

[Lizz612]

94. "I think that using gender-specific insults help perpetuate sexism"

I honestly want to know how. Please explain. Not an attack, a request for explanation.

[slinkerwink]

99. because when you use gender-specific insults, you help

put down that gender, and it helps you feel empowered by doing so.

[Lizz612]

106. So if I call

my friend's ex a bastard or a prick, I am putting down all men?

[slinkerwink]

114. is a white man hurt when a black person calls him "cracker?"

or "honky?" The answer is no, because the man is in the dominant gender role as well as in the dominant class, so therefore any insults used against him does not hurt his dominant role.

[Lizz612]

127. So gender specific insults

are only hurtful if used against the oppressed gender? Therefore only bitch is hurtful to its whole gender. Bastard and prick are only hurtful to the man its directed at (assuming its being used in a negative, not sarcastic, way), but not all men because men are in the dominant role.

Am I following you?

[Rationality]

128. This is where your logic is shot.

How can you determine male linguistic dominance, and how can you say that some whites or men can't be offended by being called crackers or grincos, yet say at the same time that calling women "bitch" is oppressive? If you feel this way, I can't help but say that you impose your own inferiority.

It's all about your mindset.

[slinkerwink]

138. because white men or men are not marginalized or oppressed

like minorities or women have been.

[mouse7]

168. In other words, you can insult people with anything you want...

... but you expect consideration in return you blatantly refuse to give others.

I got you.

[Liberal Christian]

35. Sure

And while you're at it, ban all posts that are hostile to religion, all posts that use vulgar language, all posts that refer to any human being using any body part or any sexual expressive terminology. Ban all bathroom humor, all posts debating whether or not a certain body type is attractive, all boring posts, all posts advocating a violent response (real or fantasy) to an action by another human being, all posts that objectify another human being in any way.

I may have left out some of the posts that I find offensive from time to time, but there's a good start.

I'm the first one to lament the degradation of the language that we speak. I loathe the constant use of language that would make my dear great-aunt pass out in horror. But it doesn't occur to me to ban it.

For awhile, I thought Political Correctness was an important corrective to attitude. I thought language created thought. It became clear to me after witnessing the effects of mandated politically correct speech in many environments that all it did was further polarize people and attitudes.

I would love it if patriotic Americans like those on DU decided to adopt a code of politeness with each other that elevated the tone of our public discourse. I don't see that happening, but there's no way to force it.

[ant]

45. hey, slinkerwink! please read

I think there's a rule about calling people out, but I wanted to get your attention so we could continue this, because I do find it to be an interesting discussion. Even if it doesn't contribute to the decision, I don't think anything else on here will, either, so whatever.

Anyway, I wanted to respond to the post where you said, "by using your line of argument, we shouldn't ban the word "n*gger" here but we do."

Do we? I thought people just didn't use it so it wasn't an issue, which, as I said in a post to Velma, is quite telling.

But to be perfectly honest, I don't think we should have an outright ban on ANY words. This has always been my problem with politically-correct language. It gives racists and homophobes and sexists the language they need to hide who they are. It's what keeps guys like Lott in power. It adds to The Code they already have and lets them seep into polite society.

If someone refers to me as "latina" but is thinking "spic" - what good does that do me? Let the fucker call me a spic and then let the wrath of community justice fall upon him. If that justice doesn't materialize, well, then I know this is not my community and will go elsewhere. (And like I said, I'm feeling that way about DU right now, not because the word bitch is allowed but because of the way people react to legitimate concerns about the attitudes it reflects. There's just no concern at all for why women might be offended by this, and THAT'S offensive to me. It's like me being told that I'm "overreacting" to being called a spic.)

I prefer knowing what my status is. I don't want to enable those who look down on me by giving them the tools to hide their -isms.

[kiahzero]

54. You rock!

If someone refers to me as "latina" but is thinking "spic" - what good does that do me? Let the fucker call me a spic and then let the wrath of community justice fall upon him.

That's pretty much the basis of my argument above.

[slinkerwink]

56. what if that community turns into the nation not going to your defense

because they've been conditioned into thinking using the word "spic" as a slur against you is okay?

[ant]

96. Like I said...

If that's the case, then I know this isn't my community and will go elsewhere. There's no point in hiding how people feel about each other.

Whether or not bitch is offensive really does depend on the context, so whenever you see it used in an offensive way, say so, hit alert, etc. Maybe in that way we can evolve a set of norms that posters and mods can use.

All this fighting isn't going to get us anywhere, and even if the word is banned there's just going be lingering resentment and new ways of expressing the same hatred. I think the women of DU - and the men who agree with them - need to start policing this on their own. A single woman who points it out or complains is likely to be ignored, but let a flock of real bitches land on their heads and perhaps people will learn real fast that sexism will not be tolerated.

Really - next time you see the word used offensively, drop me an email. Get a list of other women who would be willing to join in, and we can work together to call attention to the individual posters who display behavior we feel is inappropriate, and others can learn and hopefully understand (assuming they're sincere about understanding women's struggles in the first place) what it is we're talking about.

[FAndy9]

102. Why ban words?

As a civil libertarian I cannot belive anyone here proposes the banning of words, regardless of their possible meaning.

One problem is see here is that by mentioning ANY kind of insult that has the slightest relation to a group of which you're part of, you automatically relate it to yourself.

Let us please throw that idea out of the window.

I think that it is idiotic to even feel offended by such things. And I belong in a multitude of groups which have their great share of insults and jokes. Am I being offended? Not really.

We all know that we are part of racial and ethnic groups. I would like to think that we are also smart enough to differentiate between being insulted on such basis of BELONGING to such groups, or being insulted because the insulter has a problem with THE WHOLE GROUP in general.

Has anyone been to Slashdot? Seen the polls? If you have, you might be familiar with the inside joke of "you insensitive clod". It consists of belittling the person that created the poll by saying that you don't belong to any of the options (ex: "I don't HAVE LEDs, you insensitive clod!").

Consider how frivolous it is to apply a ban on words on the concept of being offensive. Let's consider MY situation: i don't mind being called a dick, asshole, etc. . Seriously, you really have to have problems to feel put down by total strangers who are lacking enought brains to throw arouns insults to strangers.

But as a kid that is working his ass off to go to the MIT, I find particular problems with being called "a failure", or "having no future". So where do I have to sign up to get those banned too??

Look, banning of words is not going to get us anywhere. slinkewink, ever considered that you might be called bitch for belonging to the female group, and that, were you a man, you would be called "dick" or "white trash", if you happened to be caucasian?

Let us keep the whole insults thing out of the fight against racism and sexism. How much something offends us is subjective and completely unmeasurable, hence regulating it is worthless. And toughen up all of you; let the fact that you're being insulted work to show how much of an idiot is the person that throws it. After all, if you know you're NOT a bitch, asshole, dick, etc., then what's the problem? And if you are, well, either: 1) you belong to that group and that's OK, 2)you do not, of 3) the people that throws the insult has particular problems with the group in question. Let the situation sort itself out to the criteria of the mods. THAT is why the Alert button is there.

[WillyBrandt]

60. We prefer to be called "Spanish People in Control"

Just FYI :)

[ant]

103. LOL

Never heard that one before. Reminds be of BITCH = Being In Total Control of Herself.

[WillyBrandt]

111. Really? It's one of my favorite acryonyms

[Lizz612]

117. I like that!

Reclaim the word!

[LWolf]

62. Wow.

The controversy that never dies.

Ideally, DU will come to consensus. Here is my take:

"Bitch" is offensive. It was coined as a term derogatory to women. I view it the same as any other term derogatory to gender, race, etc.

"Bitch-slap" is more offensive. The whole thing hinges on disrespect for my gender.

I understand that some don't mean disrespect when they use it. I don't hold that against them, but it is still offensive. I have heard racial and sexual epithets used with no ill intent, but it is still offensive. The terms exist because of disrespect. Using them with respect is an oxymoron.

[slinkerwink]

65. bravo!

:toast:

[powergirl]

69. "Bitch" is one of those Mrs. Gingrich words

I think the term "bitch slap" is ok and it is pretty funny too because it describes someone getting smacked down (regardless of gender) who really deserves it due to their idiocy.

But if we libs call women - even evil Republican commentators like Ann Coulter, etc., we are reducing ourselves to their level. Remember when Newtie's mom told Connie Chung that Newt thought the First Lady was a "bitch," I clucked to myself that it was such a Repub comment and demonstrates that the Repubs are a joke when it comes to women's rights.

This is my first post. I live down in Texas (there are a few Democrats here and there) and I really really really don't want Bush for a president for another four years. This is so embarassing!

[slinkerwink]

80. exactly----let's not use sexist terms that Freepers use to put down

women like Hillary Clinton, Judith Dean, and Governor Ann Richards in here.

[Spider Jerusalem]

78. No.

Since what is at issue is use of pejorative terms in phrases such as "Barbara Bush is an evil fucking bitch" or "Anne Coulter is a hell-spawned cunt", I would argue that use of such terms in this instance is a case of le mot juste.

"Political correctness" is a bad thing, when carried too far. It saps language of vitality and meaning, in the interest of "not offending anyone"...and there is no right not to be offended, anyway. Far as I'm concerned, if you're that goddamned thin-skinned you need to be somewhere other than a political message board, since it's obvious you lack the equipment to deal with the sort of spirited discourse one may expect to encounter in such a context.

[Lizz612]

82. "Reclaiming Cunt"

The skit in the Vagina Monologues is very interesting.

[monobrau]

83. Please cut the PC crap

If a member refers to another member as a "bitch" then deal with the issue of personal attacks. If a member refers to a 3rd party as a bitch and it has a sexist connatation, then take that person to task.
Forbidding words and phrases is what the bad guys do.

[Lizz612]

86. Thank you monobrau

[ALago1]

125. Holy Crap! Thread #6???

I'll restate my opinion:

No.

[Rationality]

153. We're going for 12 baby!!!!

:smoke: :beer: :headbang:

[NMDemDist2]

130. NO!

[TankLV]

134. Just my thoughts.

First of, when I use the term bitch, son of a bitch, cocksucker, prick, dick, etc. - it's MEANT to be demeaning and derogatory in the worst possible way to the person who is the subject of the vulgarity.

That is the whole point.

To suggest that it is referring to some dictionary term referring to a female dog is not even in the contemplation of the moment of usage. To claim otherwise is disingenuous at best.

To also suggest that I am trying to infer some sort of female denigration, is also absurd. I mean it as an equivalent term to "asshole", "fuck wad", "dick", "prick" and other similar derogatory terms - TO THE INDIVIDUAL that is the subject of my scorn and contempt.

Second, when I use the term, it applies only to the object of my scorn. Not my niece, nephew, friends children, other women or other men, or ANY OTHER PERSON not the subject of my scorn. To try to claim anything else is just absurd. When I say I hate a particular dish of food, it is that particular plate or batch of the food, not all food of the same kind, and not all food. Same argument as trying to claim the by heaping my scorn on ONE individual, I'm somehow transferring it to other people - that's also just plain absurd and silly - just as it is to claim that I am not trying to be insulting or worse to the person(s) that the adjective is being applied to.

Now, many have raised interesting points regarding the word itself, for I also would never consider using the "N" word or "fagot" or even "queer" on someone. If I'm not willing to use those words, and others of a similar nature, then how can I continue to use words that offend others of a similar nature.

That is to say, I will not stop using vulgarities to describe someone, maybe I just need to use different ones. If some on this thread claim that ANY use of vulgarity is prohibited by me, they can take a hike, and I could care less. Get a thicker skin. Stop reading.

Henceforth, I will TRY to limit my vulgarities to:

Pieces of Shit, Assholes, Idiots, Morons, Fuck wads, Ass-wipes, Pricks, Dicsk, Cunts and any other similar words that I can come up with that suit the situation - and I will limit their usage, as always, to members of bunkerboy's family, friends, political party, business partners, and other abominations to humanity.

[cally]

144. THANK YOU

I agree wholeheartedly. I appreciate your post.

[TOhioLiberal]

147. I vote 'no'

No ban on bitch.

[Rationality]

158. And if all I did wasn't an official-enough vote

Rationality aka. Silicon Method votes HELL NO!

[NuttyFluffers]

161. but of course. i like very little speech restrictions.

i believe as long as you follow the freedom of speech of the first amendment you are in good ground. maybe a little tighter to restrict filibustering trolls, but otherwise i like it quite open.

and i believe that eliminating the filibustering is good because it is acting like parliamentarian and managing speech so no groups are shouted down from one overly vocal group. this way dialogue can occur because the 'volume' is leveled between groups and most people can be heard. one can argue that this is in fact a requirement of gov'ts 1st amendment too, allowing the unheard voices to be heard. that to maintain this freedom for all sometimes you need to tone down or tune out static.

so let things be as long as there's responsible behavior.

[Guava Jelly]

172. hell no

Ashcroft is that you? lol
Lets out law the word Bush instead. that is the most vile word I ever heard

[Skinner]

182. Please continue discussion in thread #7

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1358758&mesg_id=1358758