Occupy London could be protected by Christian ring of prayer

[dipsydoodle]

Source: The Guardian

Christian groups have drawn up plans to protect protesters by forming a ring of prayer around the camp outside St Paul's Cathedral, should an attempt be made to forcibly remove them.

As the storm of controversy over the handling of the Occupy London Stock Exchange demonstration deepened on Saturday, Christian activists said it was their duty to stand up for peaceful protest in the absence of support from St Paul's. One Christian protester, Tanya Paton, said: "We represent peace, unity and love. A ring of prayer is a wonderful symbol."

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/29/christians-defend-occupy-london-protest

[xchrom]

1. Recommend

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. Boston police threw Veterans for Peace to the ground and cuffed them. Let's see what the bobbies do.

[dipsydoodle]

3. bobbies?

aka The old Bill. :)

Depends - the churchyard is St Pauls : the pavement isn't.

Complicated issue because if the protesters can over ride the Highways Act the street traders which that section of the act is there to protect against can too.

[adigal]

99. Obviously, their Christians are different than our fundies are, too

They actually seem to believe their religion!!

[Taverner]

4. Rec to the C!

Seriously, this is awesome

As an Atheist, I tip my hats to all of you

[No Elephants]

76. Good for you.

I have not enjoyed the posts of most atheists on this thread.

Nice to read one that felt no need for viciousness or mocking.

Props, snaps, thumbs up--whatever form of approval you choose. You have mine.

[Meeker Morgan]

91. Pray in one hand and shit in the other, and see which hand gets filled first. n/t

[Taverner]

117. No need to mock. Just survive and make this a better place.

I have more in common with Social Justice Christians than I do Ayn Rand Athesits

[Marazinia]

5. Can you send us some of those Christians?

America seems to be lacking in that type of Christian (it's why I'm an atheist). Could you send us some, please? The rightwing type is more likely to crack a protester over the head with a Bible and scream, "Get a job!"

[Critters2]

6. You're an atheist because Christians don't do what you'd like?

Odd. I'd think you'd be an atheist because you don't believe in God.

[valerief]

7. Watch out! That wagging finger is about fall off. nt

[No Elephants]

56. Your wagging finger or Critters2's wagging finger?

Sorry, I could not resist noting the irony.

[valerief]

110. Just call me Stumpy! nt

[Darth_Kitten]

105. Your bias is showing.

n/t

[Marazinia]

8. True

But it's the way those supposed Christians act that made me realize there can't possibly be a God. Subject to any god or gods showing up to correct me on that one, I'll continue to be an atheist. And I owe it all to right wing Christians who made me ask myself, how can I trust such people to tell me the truth about anything, or to know the truth themselves?'

[emilyg]

17. Broad brush much?

[Tutankhamun]

33. The Bible is full of those "broad brush" statements.

Condemning all those who don't believe its deity/deities of choice. Condemning homosexuals. Condemning those who eat shellfish. Wives who cheat should be stoned. Slaves should be condemned to a life of slavery.

Naturally, a book riddled with those sorts of ridiculous, broad brush condemnations, disguising itself as the end all, be all, ultimate authority on morality is bound to attract more than its share of rotten, self-righteous, duplicitous people.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't harmful, but is very delicious!

[Kurmudgeon]

47. Don't bother, Emily. Online atheists are full of tons of excuses and code words..

Already have trotted out the spaghetti monster and then accusing Emily of things she didn't say.
So typical, oh well, continue.
However, well done London Christians, you show that the stereotypes are NOT true, despite whatever a 1000 anti-faith keyboard haters have to say.
God be with you and the protestors!

[Enthusiast]

67. Don't dis The Flying Spaghetti Monster!

You will be struck dead by a flying meatball. I've seen it happen.

[LiberalEsto]

84. Ramen! nt

[No Elephants]

50. Not all Christians interpret those statements literally.

Some see them as something folks may have said or believed 7000 years ago that may or may not have any validity to begin with, but definitely have no relevance or validity today. Or, as something someone stuck into the bible during the years when the Christian Church had control of it.

In fact, I know a Christian lesbian couple (one is former nun) that found on Cape Cod a church attended by gays, transvestites and transgendered people and my friends attend regularly.

Even those who take the Bible very literally can work through ancient Hebrew and find the Old Testament pronouncment on homosexuality, for example, could have been translated to apply only to male prostitution.

Or, how God feels is God's business and humans are not able to parse it. No one deputized them to shun, condemn or otherwise insult anyone, only to love their neighbors (no exceptions to that in the Bible) as themselves.

IOW, those inclined to bigotry anyway will find it in the Bible, much as they found rationalizations for slavery. Those not inclined to bigotry anyway will find plenty of support in the Bible to treat everyone equally.

In fact, they may well lead in abolishing slavery and other violations of human rights against their fellow humans, even if they are not themselves slaves, or denied the vote, or members of the GLBT community.

[Remember Me]

36. That very reasoning

(broadly speaking) is what prompted me to leave the Catholic church -- and basically all organized religion.

But I never stopped believing in a Higher Being. Not for a moment. Perhaps because I wasn't relying on OTHERS to tell me what Truth and Reality are when I could very well get what information I needed for myself.

[No Elephants]

54. I know what you mean. I don't attend church anymore. I am sure some that I would

love to attend are out there, but everytime I thought I'd found one, I'd soon hear something that stabbed or dismayed me.

[No Elephants]

49. I think you've put your finger on it.

There tends to be a big difference between the far RW and the left of center folk.

Therefore, it stands to reason there would be a big difference no matter what religion or lack thereof we were comparing.

There may or may not be a God or a Higher Power or whatever term you wish to use, but making that decision based on how RW Christians or RW atheists behave is probably not the wisest way to make it. Otherwise, you may conclude there is no such thing as global warming, too.

(not intending offense: tongue is in cheek, if not in check)

[Marazinia]

113. It was a little more complicated than that

The way Christians talk, the things their book tells them to do, and what they really do, and how they justify it, that's what got me thinking. But it took more than thirty years to finally realize that it's more than just people not doing what their god wants them to. It's people who told me god exists, but people can't be trusted. They can't even be trusted to agree on what that god wants. So if there is a god, let that god come tell me what he wants, I'm listening. But people aren't telling me anything anymore, because people as a species are ignorant and illogical at best and incredibly delusional at worst. Also, religion is too often used as a source of control by people who know very well there's no god.

[totodeinhere]

27. We are not lacking in that type of Christian. It's just that the fundies get more attention.

But we have plenty of good Christians too as well as good Jews and Muslims and others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO0s0R6KMXw

[No Elephants]

53. +1

[Enthusiast]

68. Good Muslims?

That cannot be. Fox News said.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. Oh, there are plenty of them here

The media just ignore them in favor of the nasty loudmouths.

[No Elephants]

48. There are Christians like that in the US. Organizations full of them, in fact. They tend

to be liberals.

People sometimes say that, if Jesus came back, no one would recognize him.

Perhaps the same is true of liberal Christians.

[liberalpress]

86. I would love to see Jesus run for office ...

I can see the TV ad now:

Jesus wants us to 'beat our swords into plowshares." That isn't the kind of talk we need in a post 911 world. Jesus. Bad on defense. Bad for America..

[Axle_techie]

90. I would love to see Jesus hit up politics

Clean house like the money changers in the temple. Out with the greedy.

[BiggJawn]

9. Just the same...

They should bring bottled water and bandannas for the tear gas and whatever you wear to a protest to cut down on the welts the rubber bullets leave.

More effective than magic incantations, I think.

[dipsydoodle]

11. tear gas?

Get a life - this in England not the USA. If they were going to use anything it would be plain and simple water.

[Marazinia]

12. It's just a way to make the thugs look worse if they attack

If police are ordered to attack the protesters it will make them look even worse as they mow down Christians. That said, yeah, bringing supplies is a good idea, too.

[roguevalley]

19. for god sake. can't you just APPRECIATE THAT PEOPLE ARE

GOING TO STAND BETWEEN POLICE VIOLENCE AND OWS IN LONDON?! What the fuck. Can't you JUST LET IT GO FOR ONE TIME!?!

[PotatoChip]

40. Thank You. n/t

[blue_roses_lib]

43. Yes, Thank you. n/t

[BiggJawn]

46. What people?

I read that they were going to "form a Ring of Prayer" around the protectors. To me that sounds like they're going to stay home or go to church and cast their magic spells without putting themselves in harm's way.

So they pray to their god for protection. I predict that, as usual, his answer is going to be "No."

[roguevalley]

51. and you are saying what you are saying because you are so

full of hate you don't want to read what they are saying,. They are going to be around the group and between them and the police. sad. Just damned sad.

[BiggJawn]

96. "Full of hate..."

Because I don't think any religion is based in fact, I must be "full of hate".

Um-huh, sure, whatever.

[No Elephants]

63. Read the very first sentence of the OP again. Did you think "them" in removing "them"

referred to removing the people praying or to somehow removing their invisible prayers, being said from their own couches or desks?

[Shining Jack]

111. :facepalm:

[WolverineDG]

108. Of course not

one of the tenets of the atheist religion is to take a dump on anything that puts believers (especially Christians) in a positive light.

dg

[lightningandsnow]

10. One of my friends (a UCC minister) is a chaplain at Occupy Toronto.

Yes, those awesome liberal Christians do exist! :)

[Marazinia]

13. Good to know

They're the only ones I've ever considered to be Christians, since they follow feed the hungry, care for the sick, visit the imprisoned, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Not like the typical Christians in my country, who believe God loves most those who own the most. Rich? Camel? Eye of needles? Please. Turn the other cheek? Love your enemy? *Snort* Come on! These Christians around here go to church on Sunday and justify torture on Tuesday. They don't even read their own book!

[No Elephants]

55. Some Christians in the US do love their neighbors. Statements like yours

may challenge them, though.

[JBoy]

42. UCC is the gateway drug to Christianity

Damn, why you so reasonable and loving, UCC?

*former UCC, now agnostic

[tomg]

65. I am agnostic, but I love Sojourners and

Jim Wallis, and one of my heroes is the remarkable Dorothy Day. I see and know people like that, one of the reasons I despise the "Christian" right.

[Bluenorthwest]

97. Wallis and his group oppose equal rights for GLBT people.

And you love them. Speaks louder than all the self righteous spouting on this thread. Definitive,in fact.

[tomg]

106. Actually, thanks for the

heads up. I have gotten their e-newsletter for awhile, but never came across this - ever since I heard him on Bill Moyers. Probably should have read it more closely ( or more frequently). That, quite honestly, is a deal breaker for me for a number of reasons. In fact, I was a contract negotiator on a faculty contract well over 10 years ago that got partnership benefits. Sorry that my ignorance "speaks louder than all the self-righteous spouting on this thread." You really didn't have to give me the heads up with a 2x4.

[newspeak]

115. my friend worked with dorothy day

yes, there are good, socially conscious christians that walk the walk. And ms. day, I believe, had a few run ins with the catholic hierarchy.

[Enthusiast]

69. I love liberal Christians!

[Meeker Morgan]

92. I don't.

Religion is evil even when "nice" people do it.

Jesus ventriloquism has no place in politics.

[Enthusiast]

101. You know, I see things differently.

My sole criteria is: If someone isn't an asshole, I like them, liberal Christians included. That is my single requirement.

Because the world is now so very full of assholes. We are living in the time of a veritable plague of assholes.

[DemOhio]

114. But....

No one here is advocating a theocracy ruled by Christian bishops....even if they were liberal clergy.

People here are annoyed that a group is acting in solidarity with us and many here want to put them down because they dont have the same opinion on a higher power.

So if a Muslim group prayed to end terrorism and suicide bombings, would we be justified in calling them names like they do on Free Republic. I ask that because that is exactly what I am seeing here from a lot of people who dont believe in Christianity/God/whatever.

[polmaven]

88. The United Methodist Church -

At least the New England Conference - (that's the only I have info about) - is regularly at Occupy Boston to offer any assistance the are able to give. There is a clergy area with several tents, etc.

[Uncle Joe]

14. I wish I could kick and recommend this more than once.

Thanks for the thread, dipsydoodle.:thumbsup:

[Jack Rabbit]

15. K/R

Not all Christians are Peter the Hermit, Tomás Torquemada or Jerry Falwell.

Many are still inspired by Martin Luther King.

[dddem]

16. THAT, my friends

is what Christians are supposed to do. Growing up in the Catholic church, one of my favorite hymns as a kid (back when they did what they called a 'folk mass') was titled "They'll know we are Christians by our love". Not so much now.

[Marazinia]

18. True Christians

Ah now, usually it's Quakers I think of when I think of true Christian sects, but there are exceptions among the Catholic church, people who actually walk the walk. Much respect to Roy Bourgeois as the example I'm most familiar with. But I'm still not trusting any human, even one I think of as an actual Christian, to tell me about gods. If there's a god out there who wants to discuss the matter, then he's welcome to drop by anytime. My trust in humanity in this and all matters is finished.

[dddem]

23. Personally, And I mean this with all due respect,

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in God. What really matters is that God believes in you.
Peace.

[No Elephants]

77. I thought you were going to say that it matters how you behave toward others.

Especially those in need.

[dddem]

118. That's a given!

As I recall, we were taught that Jesus' teachings included "Love one another as I have loved you", and one of my favorites - "whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me".
I've always felt that even if you don't believe that God exists, or that Jesus is the 'Son of God', you've got to give the man his due - he really walked the walk, and he taught us that "in the eyes of God" (or, if you prefer - in a perfect world) we are all human, therefore, we are all equal and deserving of respect. At least that's what I understood.
And these people who call themselves 'Christian' really don't live by the teaching of Christ. All the rules they embrace come from the Old Testament - before Jesus' time.
Peace.

[Demoiselle]

20. Yup, ddem.

I would love to see our American "evangelicals" and other self-identified Christians getting out there and facing down the lions.
Sigh.

[unionworks]

30. my GAWD

You remember that???!!!

[dddem]

35. I'd rather not get into the things I remember

It's depressing. I actually remember the mass in latin. my favorite, though is that when, during school, we had to go into the church, all of us girls had to put kleenex on our heads, because you couldn't go in without your head covered.
jeez, I'm old!

[unionworks]

109. Naaa

I was confirmed in 1968, when Vatican 2 was still operating and the church was still about helping people. :)

[No Elephants]

59. Very respectfully,

Jesus said that people are supposed to leave to God the decision of who is a true Christian and who isn't.

Not in so many words, but it is supposedly the point of the parable of the wheat and the tares.

And "love thy neighbor as thyself" is an unqualified command, no exceptions. Usually, when addressing Christians, I say "It doesn't say your heterosexual neighbor." But it also doesn't say "Your true Christian neighbor."

Yes, it's a huge challenge. But, loving only people of whose behavior you approve totally at least most of the time would probably not require a commandment.

And even "true" Christians are not "true Christians" in every respect or every minute of the day. All Christians, be they the "flavor" of Christians we prefer or not, have failings, like everyone else on the globe. Not because they are Christians, but because they are humans.

[paulrfrank]

21. The socialist in their mist . . .

I am guessing that Jesus organized this prayer circle . . .

[66 dmhlt]

25. The Bible they like to thump already tells us "What Jesus Would Do"

[No Elephants]

57. Jesus organized all prayer circles.

Or the words the New Testament attributes to Jesus, at any rate.

"Where two or three are gathered in my name...."

[Bluenorthwest]

98. False...Jesus in fact forbade public prayer and said only hypocrites do that

The verse you cite is not about prayer at all. Jesus specifically said that when his followers pray, they should go to the most private room in there own house and shut the door before prayer. That is his actual teaching, the religions about him ignore that and pray on tv and all over the public. This is how we know they ate hypocrites, Jesus said they are.
This habit of rewriting Scriptures is annoying, in part because of the religious folk who take up other verses against thei neighbors. I am extremely well versed in that set of scriptures. Thus, I wonder in threads like this why all the fuss about believers being misrepresented, because that Jesus guy promised his followers they would be mocked and he commanded them to rejoice on those occasions. Not grouse about how others speak of them but to rejoice. Why do they not rejoice? Why do they pray on display? If one anti gay verse is Holy Law, what about those actual words of Jesus, why are those left ubpracticed, put aside, ignored?
Hypocrisy....

[Tsiyu]

22. They aren't anything like many Christians in the US

Went to a Church of England service in London once just to see how it differed from the Episcopal service.

Very liberal congregants and priest. Very much in tune with the needs of the poor, from what I heard and saw.

A jazz band played during communion, and there were a lot of punk haircuts in the pews.

Needless to say, all of my stereotypes were proven false.

We need more Christians like that in America.


(Not an Episcopalian - or a Christian any more - the Southern Confederama Episcopalians are as dirty, corrupt and evil as Fred Phelps where I live, from what I've seen and experienced)

[No Elephants]

61. They're here.

[Douglas Carpenter]

24. perhaps sometimes prayer does work

[Tutankhamun]

34. There is no evidence that a deity is responding to magical incantations.

That's kind of like saying, "Perhaps sometimes I can see the future and predict the outcome of a coin toss." It may seem that sometimes one can predict such a thing, should one work hard to become convinced of it. More so if one is raised from infancy to believe this -- schooled accordingly, socialized accordingly, threatened with eternal torture should one think critically on the matter.

If, however, we're discussing the placebo effect then yes, perhaps sometimes prayer (arguably, in a manner of speaking) works.

[Douglas Carpenter]

39. if you really believe that - then why so defensive?

As a character in Flannery O'Connor's novel Wise Blood put it, "There's nothing worse than a man who claims not to believe when he really does."

OBVIOUSLY- I was referring to how a prayer circle might be able to keep the police from evicting the protesters - nothing to do with whether or not a deity is involved or even exist.

[Tutankhamun]

44. The fact that I defend a point of view doesn't mean

somehow that I believe the opposite. My post simply argues against something for which there is no evidence. Magical thinking, although its global grasp is fading, remains to this day a significant force for evil. This is why I speak out against it. Interesting statement from Wise Blood though. I didn't find your original point obvious, but I agree with it now that I get your drift. :-)

Actually, I kind of like what Mark Twain said: "Faith is believing what you know ain't true."

[No Elephants]

72. When no one has attacked, is it still called being defensive?

[No Elephants]

66. One study was totally blind, though

Hospital admissions--numbers given out to churches instead of names. neither caregivers nor patients knew about the study. Neither did those praying.

The results for those prayed for supposedly were better. Fewer deaths, shorter hospital stays required, etc.

Heard it on TV about ten years ago, maybe more. (Time flies.) IIRC, they were all cardiac cases.

Inasmuch as this was a segment on evening news and not a scientific journal, they did not mention how much care had been taken to match severity of problem, age, overall health before the event that brought them to the hospital, etc. All that may or may not have been done. The newscaster did not say one way or the other.

It wasn't as though doctors withheld treatment from those prayed for or knew of anything that might make them be less careful, so I cannot imagine the study did anyone any harm--and the blood pressure of those prayer may have gone down. (There was a completely unrelated study on the effects of of prayer on those praying for others. Those praying had positive physical effects. Meditation works well on the body and emotions, too, even if not associated with a belief in God.

Anyway, I think people encircling a public place in an Anglican nation and praying cops don't attack those inside the circle just may help, whether or not a higher power exists or not. And they seem to mean will. I see no reason to put down them or their prayers, at least not so far.

[cleanhippie]

95. There was no study that made that conclusion.

Several intercessory prayer studies HAVE been done and found that "prayer" does NOTHING, especially when the person being prayed for does not know. In some cases, those that did, actually got worse.

Link to your study? Or will you just provide me with a "shut up" retort?

[LiberalEsto]

85. Perhaps not a deity

but the spark that lives inside all of us may awaken.
and then start awakening others.

namaste'

[totodeinhere]

26. Some Christians are good people, unlike many of the right wing fundies we have on this side of the

pond. And of course we have good Christians here too while they probably have their share of fundies. The problem with religion is fundamentalism. not religion itself. And the same applies to Islam and Judaism and other religions.

[3dogs]

28. some Christians

I don't have a problem with God, its his followers who give me the creeps.

3 dogs

[No Elephants]

71. Then you have a lot in common with Ghandi, except he said "Christ."

Would have been nice if you had used the word "some" or, if you prefer, "many."

For one thing, that would be a much more accurate statement. For another a good number of your fellow DUers are followers. Some here seems to take some kind of pleasure in being more vicious about it than they are about Republicans, but I am not sure why.

[No Elephants]

70. Oh, I'm guessing there may be some right wing fundies on that side of the pond, too.

Ever see the movie "Vendetta?"

ETA: Sorry, I think it's "V is for Vendetta."

[LeftishBrit]

116. You're right, there are

It is NOTHING like in America; and in fact the problem with recent governments has tended to be that too many of our leaders are *only* socially liberal and don't see how much social liberalism for all depends on economic justice (the threat of severe poverty can be just as coercive as the police state).

However, there is a religious/social Right that in my view is increasing. I say 'religious/social' because not all members of this group are in fact strongly religious: some, notably the journalist Melanie Phillips, and the retired but still vocal politician Norman Tebbit, seem to value Britain's 'Christian tradition' as a means of enforcing social and often economic conservativism, rather than the other way round. There's a lot of nastiness in the media. And for instance, the Daily Telegraph, always the 'Torygraph', has moved from a sort of mainstream British Conservativism to something more akin to the American Christian Right, including its hatred for President Obama.

The political 'pro-life' movement is particularly nasty in parts of my town of Oxford, and conducted a vicious smear campaign against our former MP which contributed to his defeat by a Tory in 2010; and yes, there were sermons in at least one of our local churches that supported this. Oh, and also in my backyard: I recently discovered that this church and one or two others have been conducting 'Healing on the Streets' where they practice faith healing and claim to have healed people of serious conditions like paralysis and cancer. Friends of mine, themselves Christians, who observed this were absolutely horrified by the church-endorsed quackery. I am ashamed to be typing this paragraph; two years ago, I would have said that such things did not happen in England, let alone right where I live!

And on another front: our former Tory leader and current Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, co-authored an article on 'Compassionate Conservativism' in 2005 with RICK SANTORUM!

We are a much more secular country than America, and British Christianity is on the whole much more liberal than that of some American churches, and I am thankful for all this. Nonetheless, there are things that can happen anywhere that can make you go 'Aaargh!'

[unionworks]

29. don't try to lay no boogie woogie

...on the King of Rock and Roll!!!

[No Elephants]

74. Elvis? I thought his only Grammies were for his gospel albums?

Thank ya verra much.

[unionworks]

83. long john baldry

(The late great) actually, old boy.it was a song about begging for pennies in London while playing guitar, and he gets busted by a Bobbie for playing (short O sound) "buugie wuugie"music. A wonderful song.

[dipsydoodle]

87. I was at school with John

who was 3 years older than me. I can remember when he first "allowed" Rod Stewart to sing in his band, The Hoochie Coochie Men, some years later.

[unionworks]

104. my old hat

Full of pennies is certainly off to you! Rock the Occupation!:yourock:

[nolabear]

31. Now there's Christianity I could get behind.

Blessings on them.

[No Elephants]

78. I've read the Bible. There is little, if anything, in the words attributed to Jesus

with which I have a problem, though there were a few things among them I never understood, or never understood in terms of something God might say.

However, I did find a gap between what the Bible says/emphasizes, and some sermons or other Bible teaching I've heard.

For example, at a wedding, I heard that God had married Adam and Eve. Never read about that wedding ceremony in the Bible. Who issued the license? I guess Adam officiated at the marriages of his sons then?

And I never read anything anywhere in the Bible where God deputized anyone to run around condemning others, yet, that seems to be the focus--indeed, mandate-- of many sermons I;ve heard.


I don't know that any religion is so terrible. How some teach and purport to live out religious precepts, however, can be revolting.

I agree with much that Ghandi says about religion and religions. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. Now THAT is what I call real Christians! nt

[Smilo]

38. Woot woot - good on you.....

makes feel proud to be CofE.

[No Elephants]

75. Uh oh. (Pride goeth before the fall.)

[Turborama]

41. The church's reaction to the protesters has lacked humanity

The senior members of the church are silent about greed, avarice and social justice – some of Jesus's favourite topics

Editorial
The Observer, Sunday 30 October 2011

In June, as guest editor of the New Statesman, Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, showed impressive prescience http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2011/06/long-term-government-democracy">when he wrote: "There are a good many on the left and right who sense that the tectonic plates of Britain – Europe? – are shifting…" He went on to argue for St Paul's idea of "the sustainable community", "the mutual creation of capacity".

From tomorrow, if the dean and chaplain and representatives of the Corporation of London have their way, that community, at least in one small area of London, may be reduced by roughly 200 or so tents. The City and the church have announced their intention to take legal action to remove the canvas mini-village of Occupy London that is pitched near St Paul's cathedral.

As our columnist Andrew Rawnsley describes, the pilot light that began with a handful of anti-capitalist activists, as part of a global protest now spreading to more than 900 cities, has resulted in a boiling cauldron of dissent in the church; a series of "loose cannon" resignations, not least of the popular Dr Giles Fraser, who abhors "violence in the name of God" and, Rowan Williams apart, the continuing silence of the senior clergy on such matters as greed, avarice, inequality and social justice – just a few of Jesus's favourite topics.

One reason might be that Rowan Williams was given a sound drubbing for his attempts in the New Statesman to make the church relevant to matters of concern besetting thousands of its parishioners.

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/30/observer-editorial-st-pauls-protest

:hi:

[dotymed]

45. IMO, American Christians should be doing the same here.

Peacefully protesting poverty and thievery is what Christianity supposedly does, on a daily basis. In America, most "Christian" denominations are being advised by their pastors to not be involved with the Occupy movement. Did anyone watch the Pat Robertson tape about how good Christians would never support Occupy, they should support actions against poverty and injustices instead....:wtf:

[avaistheone1]

58. I agree. Some of it is starting to happen in other spots as well.

The local news reported that late last week a number of religious leaders marched with Occupy Oakland. O8)



k&r

:kick:

[JDPriestly]

52. It would be wise to try to get official interdenominational groups

involved in the Occupy movement. Not only would they protect the protestors from the government, but they would also discourage violence or impatience among the protests. They could also help mediate disputes among protestors that the protestors themselves cannot resolve should any arise.

I would also advise people serious about the Occupy movement to read the book Nonviolent Communication.

[avaistheone1]

62. Great idea.

I think they would be a positive addition to OWS, and they also might give the police pause before the police think of taking future rash actions against the protesters.

k&r

:kick:

[Bluenorthwest]

102. OWS has a multi faith Service today at 3:30......

So that door will open for those who knock. They can join, but they can not be a separate group, they will be the protestersseurat security for them. OWS is doing consensus and non violence training, and I'd like to see evidence that religious groups hold abilities in that regard which others lack. Also,evidence that cops would hesitate to harass religious groups. This image of religious folk as forces of peace greater than secular protesters is absurd, forgetting the extremes such as clinic bombings, the mainstream religious world favored Bush wars and organizes against the civil rights of minorities they do not like. They can not stand with the 99% while standing against equality and justice, while pushing discrimination and bigotry. No hypocrites needed, they have to be us to stand with us.

[RainDog]

60. k&r n/t

[earcandle]

64. Well! that is different. Thanks!

[dipsydoodle]

73. Clerics to meet St Paul's Cathedral protesters

The Bishop of London and the Dean of St Paul's are to meet protesters who are camping outside the cathedral.

The two senior clerics will speak to the group from Occupy London about their grievances and ask them to leave.

>

The Right Reverend Graeme Knowles, Dean of St Paul's, and Dr Richard Chartres, Bishop of London, have told the protesters they will meet them from 09.30 GMT on Sunday.

They are expected to offer members of Occupy London, also known as Occupy London Stock Exchange (OLSX), who are protesting against corporate greed, the chance to hold a public debate in the cathedral on the financial mismanagement of banks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15510444

Don't know if the Beeb will show this on their World Service or not but if so that about 15 minutes from now.

[No Elephants]

79. What does Justin Bieber have to do with Occupy London?

(Sorry, just feeling silly.)

[dipsydoodle]

81. I had to look that up

:)

There's a twitter feed to this somewhere or other. Here too : http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx

[No Elephants]

80. I hope everyone can work this out. Sounds as though they all want to.

[Mosaic]

82. And now the Vatican is supporting the movement

Vatican Decries Financial Excesses

It says we need globalized solutions for globalized problems; it favors a market economy but not this one; it calls for “supranational authority,” a healthy, non-tyrannical “world political authority” to tame the greed games that strip the poor and gorge the rich; it calls names, deriding “neoliberalism,” the neocons’ credo, as devoid of “moral perspective” and a writ for “collective greed.” It seeks to tax financial transactions to create a “world reserve fund.” Yes! Tax!

It moves beyond the tribal, selfish assumptions of “Westphalian” nation states and calls for a world community where differences would be respected and honored for the common good. The alternative to this is chaos and the gross inequalities that people are finally cluing into around the world and taking to the streets in response to.

There is nothing weird or radical about all this. What is radical is the status quo where the blood sweat and tears of the poor are on our clothes made in slave shops, and on our iPhones where thousands of Chinese in Shenzhen assemble them working 11-hour days for 83 cents an hour under brutal conditions. The wages are even lower in Vietnam, Cambodia and elsewhere.

Full piece here http://consortiumnews.com/2011/10/26/vatican-decries-financial-excesses/

[jimlup]

89. These are REAL christians as opposed to the fake kind we usually here about in America

I'm an atheist but I have always respected and try to hold TRUE Christian morality. (Not the ridiculous stuff that passes for morality - but isn't - in the right wing fundamentalist sects here in the States.)

[vets74]

93. Vatican supports and police chiefs have avoiding litigation as their #2 priority.

As long as protesters don't break windows or fuck in the street or do drugs openly, avoiding litigation will trump the usual minor legal concerns.

Brits also lack America's army of Limbaugh-listening brain damaged loons. There's no pool of would be provocateurs.

[LeftishBrit]

94. k&r

[cleanhippie]

100. While great news that more support is on the way, I think its the bodies, not the prayers

that are providing protection.

Cheers for them!

[sulphurdunn]

103. "Whosoever is not against us is for us." Mark 9:40

I'm just curious about what personal opinions about religion should have to do with permitting people to help people?

[annm4peace]

107. wish we had these type of Christians in Fresno, CA

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2208875

wish the christians in Fresno would encircle the homeless encampments that the City is tearing down

[lsewpershad]

112. Chrtistians

finally waking up to the teachings of their Master???????

[BeechersFault]

119. Wall Street video

You need to see this:

"Wall Street" by Beecher's Fault

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVOLTrhXhac

www.beechersfault.com