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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 04:25 PM
Original message
U.S. Issues Antidepressant Warning | LA Times
U.S. Issues Antidepressant Warning

By Elizabeth Shogren, Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — The government today told the makers of 10 popular antidepressants to add to their labels the warning that people who take them should be monitored for suicidal behavior.

The Food and Drug Administration warned doctors, patients and their families to closely monitor adults and children taking the medications. And it told them to watch out for other negative behaviors associated with the drugs, including agitation, hostility, severe restlessness, insomnia and mania.

It directed the drug companies to include lengthy warnings on the drug labels of Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Luvox, Celexa, Lexapro, Wellbutrin, Effexor, Serzone and Remeron — drugs taken by an estimated 20 million people each year.

The warnings came after an FDA advisory panel heard emotional testimony last month from dozens of patients and family members who blame the drugs for suicide attempts, suicides and violent acts. The FDA said it was not clear whether antidepressants contributed to the emergence of suicidal thoughts and behavior, but, at the urging of the advisory panel, the agency decided to issue the warnings before it completed a thorough review of the drugs.

More at the Los Angeles Times
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Florida_Geek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Peter R. Breggin, M.D an his group has been fighting this for years
http://www.breggin.com/

I am a member of his group ICSPP (see www.ICSPP.org ).
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. They have helped freinds of mine, but
I wonder about the long term consequences.
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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well, I can tell you my mother would be dead right now if not for Celexa
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LifeDuringWartime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. they work wonders for some
unfortunately, not all who need them get good results
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. Our society is a machine for madness
Given the American present, antidepressants should probably be guaranteed as a human right.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. I have been taking Wellbutrin for years, no side effects felt
I was suicidal before I got treated for depression. Untreated depression leads to many suicides. I have to go for a check up every 6 months or I cannot get my prescription refilled.

I think there is a lot of myths out there concerning these drugs.

I say if you don't want to take them, either find another way to treat your depression or live with it. Chances are you will consider suicide with out treatment.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. Welbutrin is not an SSRI
and as far as I know, there's no link whatsoever between Welbutrin & suicide. In fact, it's frequently prescribed by primary care physicians under the name Zyban as an aid to stopping smoking.

It is dangerous, however. At one point it was removed from the market because it increases the risk of seizures (especially at doses exceeding 400mgs) and, if given to a person who's bipolar, it can cause an escallating mania (although of all of the anti-depressants, it's the least likely to do that).
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jamesinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #34
179. Wellbutrin is not an SSRI
The precise mechanism of the antidepressant action of bupropion (Wellbutrin) is unclear, although norandrenergic pathways appear to be principally involved. It is substantially less potent than tricyclic antidepressants in inhibiting norepinephrine uptake. Unlike tricyclics, Wellbutrin appears to have little effect on the reuptake of norepinephrine or serotonin at the presynaptic neuronal membrane. Although the reuptake of dopamine is inhibited to some extend and more extensively than by tricyclics, but that happens at doses higher than needed for antidepressant activity. Wellbutrin does not suppress REM sleep like most antidepressants. It has also been reported to reduce specifically the cravings for chocolate.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #179
221. Not entirely accurate
Wellbutrin certainly can and does interfer with REM sleep- although, as is the case with the main thrust of this thread, a good many of these patients may have pre-existing sleep dysfunction.

To alleviate this, another atypical anti-depressant, trazodone, is sometimes prescribed, or if racing thoughts are involved, a benzodiazepine like ativan or klonopin.

Some people get good results from benadryl (an OTC), while others swear by dietary supplements like melatonin or valerian root.

Unfortunately, no one size fits all and it can take many months or even years to find the right combination.
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Layman Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
181. To Each His/Her Own
The thought of suicide is a great source of comfort: with it a calm passage is to be made across many a bad night. -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
183. Nope, it's not. Sorry....I always get Wellbutrin mixed up with Zoloft.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. Holy Frelling Crap, people
Yes, by all means, let's put a warning on the bottles:


PEOPLE WHO ARE DEPRESSED SHOULD BE MONITORED FOR POSSIBLE SUICIDE ATTEMPTS.


IN OTHER NEWS, FIRE IS HOT, AND WATER IS WET.

Goddamn these people piss me off.
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colonel odis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. have you ever
1 - been treated for depression?

2 - had anti-depressants prescribed for you?

3 - been watched for suicide?

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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Yes, yes, yes
1 - been treated for depression?

Ongoing

2 - had anti-depressants prescribed for you?

Ongoing

3 - been watched for suicide?

2 weeks in a treatment center, thank you.

My point is, people with depression are at risk of suicide attempts.

People with depression take anti-depressants.

Therefore, people who take anti-depressants are at risk of suicide attempts.

The anti-depressants, it seems to me, are not really the risk factor, are they?
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
35. This was my reaction when I heard the story tonight
my second reaction - has more to do with the fact of our 'quick fix' attitudes. My guess is the problem is that folks (prescribing, taking and those caring about those taking) assume that the reason for taking the drugs (depression, possibly suicidal) is taken care of with the quick fix - so no ongoing treatment - and no more concern about possible suicide attempts.

Perhaps it is more about us (who want to believe in quick easy solutions) than about the medications.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. LOL
GMTA, see my post #36 further down thread, which I wrote before I saw this one.

:hi:
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. great minds...
and that cliche :D :hi:
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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #35
174. I've heard it said that one of the reasons people taking antidepressants
commit suicide, other than the fact that they haven't had a chance to work yet - they can take 4-6 weeks - or that some antidepressants don't work well for some people and others do -

is that when people start to feel better they are more prone to take action - and sometimes that action - depending on their situation is suicide.
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Zorba607 Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. not so fast
there is a pretty significant body of evidence, at least for the british counterpart of paxil (I can't remember the name but the chemical is paroxotene), of an increased risk of suicide, particularly when stopping the medication. I take paxil and it has saved me a tremendous amount of grief, but if I forget to take it for a few days the withdrawl is ungodly. I've never gone long thru withdrawl but it still is among the worst experiences of my life. It's like someone running their nails down the chalkboard of your soul.
Paxil and most SSRIs also are known to cause manic symptoms in some patients. Again, this has already been an issue in europe and I'm glad to see it at least getting token attention.
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joanski01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Thank you. You sure helped
me understand what happened to me when I stopped taking Paxil. I now take Zoloft.
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. There's a lot of people
on these meds...What mg are you on? 50 or 100?
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
102. I went from Prozac to Zoloft to Effexor.
Effexor works great for me.
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Yeah, Paxil is a pain to discontinue.
However, the suicide issues relate mostly to the first few weeks to months of therapy on such a medication. The main problem is that the medications increase the energy level of patients, but the anti-depressant effect doesn't kick in for a few weeks. Thus, you very well may have a patient who didn't have the energy to kill him or herself who suddenly has the energy to do just that on an SSRI.

Any way you look at it, these medications have saved thousands of lives. The conjecture that they have caused suicides is quite questionable.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. Have suicides gone down?
Just wondering - I'm making dinner and don't have time to research - but, have they?
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #38
52. The jury is out on that.
The data is still sketchy for the most recent years. Plus, there is difficulty assessing whether SSRI's had an affect on the rate, whether it went down, stayed the same or went up. One must consider other environmental causes as possibly linked to any change in the rate, as well as access, or lack thereof, to therapy, to medication, etc... The existence of SSRI's is but one factor in that complicated equation.

Further, the benefits of SSRI's cannot be limited to a possible reduction in suicide. Anyone who has worked with, lived with, loved, befriended people who truly suffers from major depression or a serious anxiety disorder knows that these medications have greatly improved the lives of millions. Of course, medication is one part of a treatment regimen. It is not the answer alone.

As TopesJunkie stated, the main problem with SSRI's lies with the energy they give patients early on, before the antidepressant effects take hold. Further, the problem may lie in diagnosis, which is difficult, as practitioners are limited in the time they can have to get information from patients. It is possible that bipolar patients currently in depression who have not reported manic symptoms, or have yet to suffer manic symptoms, make up the majority of these suicides. This is just conjecture, but it is a consideration as these medications are being studied over time. Bipolar patients have a much higher rate of suicide than major depression patients, and SSRI's can cause mania or irritability in bipolar patients, already more likely to suffer from mania and irritability.

Anyway, there is no easy evaluation of these drugs.
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jamesinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
180. It is not the energy alone
Clarity of thought comes into play. People have the energy and they also get the ability to make a plan to kill themselves. When people are depressed they not only lack energy, they can not think straight either. People that are severely depressed need to be watched for suicide at 7-10 after starting treatment of medications because of this.

I have always been amazed at how far down somebody would have to be if mood elevation brought them up to the point that suicide sounded good. That is one deep dark hole.
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #180
189. You're quite right.
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ender Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
185. i strongly disagree.
>The conjecture that they have caused suicides is quite questionable.

you, are simply wrong. many studies have shown that SSRI's actually increase the rate of suicide, and not lessen it. in addition, severe agititation and aggression have been linked to SSRI's.

try www.breggin.com - what you are repeating are unadulterated lies, and not supported by any evidence.
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #185
188. Wrong --
Nice try. But you are using a resource that is not reputable, for starters. Second, you are using only the research you want to use to back up your claims.

Simply, you are being disingenuous.
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ender Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #188
191. yeh - those damn John's Hopkin's guys...
totally disreputable... whatever - breggins claims are verified, and supported.

just not by the pharmco's.

frankly, there are two classes of drugs that bother me to no end - SSRI's and Neuroleptics. Both are horrendously overprescribed.

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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #191
193. They may be overprescribed --
But that's not what we're discussing is it? Sorry, but your focus is clearly nothing but advocacy without context. It is time for you to back up and take a wider look, and try to understand just what it is you are looking at, in addition to who you are hurting in your attempt to "help."
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #191
215. What's Breggin got to do with Johns Hopkins?
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 06:09 PM by Snow
I know Johns Hopkins. Johns Hopkins is a friend of mine. And believe me, Breggin's no Johns Hopkins. 3 years as a "Faculty Associate"? I think you're engaging in some distortion here.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Wow
You mean, stopping taking anti-depressants can cause one to suffer? Imagine that.

I've only been told that since, like, Day One of my treatment, 14 years ago. And this is news?

The point of this article isn't that stopping the drugs is a danger, but that the drugs themselves are a danger.

So, apparently, being depressed can cause suicidal behaviour. As can the drugs used to treat depression.

What's a person to do?


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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. Someone we knew...
was on antidepressants, and blew his head off in the house...the wife turned around and SUED the drug company because he wasn't taking his meds..she got 4 million..he was 40yr old. Nice, huh!? Now she has the balls to say he was a COWARD!!!
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
43. What's a person to do? I guess promote understanding
Edited on Mon Mar-22-04 11:53 PM by depakote_kid
Anyone who's interested or who's tryng to understand may find a good starting point here at:
The Depression & Bipolar Support Alliance.

It's not much, we're mostly apolitical, but we do care about each other....

And sometimes, that makes all the difference.

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Yemp4734 Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. "particularly when stopping the medication"
Come on people. Wouldn't that be indication that the med was helping, and the discontinued treatment led to an increase in depression causing suicide?

Depression isn't like a sinus infection. Maybe some people just don't get that. You don't take an anti-depressant for 6 months then end treatment and say "Oh I'm cured!". It can last for YEARS (even your whole life). These people who were taken off the anti-depressant were more than likely taken off prematurely. Also, many times when people take anti-depressants they start to feel better, and make the mistake of thinking if they stop taking it they will still feel better. I made that mistake my self.

Now you should NOT get off suddenly. When you get off you go off slowly. You don't quit cold turkey because you are still dependent on the med to counter the depression. If you quit immediatly you risk that depression coming on in full force. You usually get lower doses over a period of time until you stop.

As for the causing bi-polar... I don't buy it. They probably already had bi-polar depression to a degree. (which, BTW, shouldn't be treated with an SSRI) Mis-diagnosis is a major problem.

Also, if you haven't suffered from depression you really aren't in a position to talk about it. You might THINK you understand it, but trust me you don't.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I agree with your whole post, especially
the last line. Very few things anger me so much as ignorant opinions regarding depression and medication. They aren't happy pills, depression is a complicated illness, and there is no "one size fits all" approach to treating it.

Many people do not take their medication regularly, which I think has a lot to do with the "suicide rates" cited in the studies. It is not a simple cause/effect type of relationship and there are many factors influencing the success of an outcome.

Withdrawal from any medication can cause complications, and anti-depressants are no exception.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Actually, I have been on a low dose
of Paxil for a few years, which pulled me out of a suicidal depression. I tried to wean my self off the drug about a year ago (without medical supervision) and did become suicidal, but I realize that it was the withdrawal that was the problem, not necessarily being ON the medication. However, I will never do that again without being rigorously monitored.

Also, for some depressed patients, going on medication makes them just well enought to carry out a plan for suicide (whereas they were suicidal before, but just didn't have the energy or presence of mind to do anything about it). Sometimes it is a matter of not being on the right medication or a strong enough dosage that is the problem, and patients may think that if they don't feel better on meds, that they are hopeless and therefore more likely to see a point in ending it.

I think the issue is much more complicated than the media is making it out to be.
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put out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. This is my understanding, too.
A depressed person who is suicidal may have the fog and pain lift for the first time in a long while when taking antidepressants. They gain energy, motivation, a sense of inner peace. And these things may lead them to act on the suicidal threats and ideations, when, in their depressed state, they were simply unable.

Be so very careful if you are caring for someone in this situation.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
77. Another factor...
is that hospitalization is very difficult to obtain, even for depressed, possibly suicidal patients. If insurance covered hospitalization for truly suicidal patients, so that medication could be calibrated to the right dosage, many suicides could be prevented.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I agree lazarus
Good analogy.
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TheDebbieDee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Lolololololol!!!!
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. Oh shit...well,
just stay on oxy!
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
147. Agreed laz. The media enjoys whipping us all into mass hysteria,
forgetting the good that these medications have accomplished.
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DennisReveni Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. Also linked
Zoloft and Paxil, the only two I recall, have been linked to violent behavior as well. It also seems that a number of those children who killed in schoolyards were on anti-depressants.
http://www.rense.com/general/pro.htm
http://www.zoloft-side-effects-lawyer.com/other.htm
http://depression.about.com/cs/fluoxetine/a/prozacviolence.htm
The CEO of GlaxoSmithKlien gave a speech a few months ago where he stated that 90% of all drugs do not work in 30% to 50% of the people taking them.
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Yemp4734 Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Hey imagine that
some people who are depressed/suicidal can also have violent behavior? Well my god! The children who killed children in school yards who were on anti-depressants... my god, it was actually the anti-depressant! Wow. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Krakowiak Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
46. INCREASED RISK while on antidepressants vs placebo
The studies that are being referenced here involved a control group treated with placebos and then compared with people treated with the SSRIs. The concern here is that the group taking the placebos did NOT have the increased risk for suicide that the SSRI group did. That's the point of this here. Of course those that are depressed are at a increased risk for suicide vs. the general population, but that's not the significance of this article. There is very real and tangible evidence that certain antidepressants when taken by certain people increase the risk of suicide above and beyond what the depression itself was to blame for.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #46
53. Can you link to this study?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 10:16 AM by HuckleB
And when did this risk incrase? Was it throughout treatment? During the first six weeks of treatment? ...

Do all the hundreds of studies on SSRI's show the same thing, or is this a one off study among a literature that shows something else?
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preciousdove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:38 PM
Original message
Hard tradeoffs, life and death
Clinical depression is cyclical, more so if a person is subject to mania. Going into and coming out of depression there is immense pain and anxiety. At the bottom of the depression there is emptiness and the inability to feel normal emotions but once there people become paralyzed to act out the suicide. When you have been down if you do not have support while climbing out through the pain of depression you are at increased risk of suicide.

Drive through depression treatment is very, very risky. Also different medicines work on differenmt people and in different doses so unless the people are closely monitored while starting antidipressants there is risk and people become used to dosages and occasionally need adjustments again you need supervision which is not available to most people today.

Having dealt with these cycles for almost all of my life I have to say there are things worse than dying and that it takes an awful lot of strength and support to live with depression treated or untreated and not all people can do it. Without the stabilizing meds you literally have to stop believing what you feel (think about that)and force yourself into robot mode to move. It takes a toll on friendships, and other close relationships. You are really half dead already.

Since my MS went chronic I need the damn pills like a diabetic needs insulin because I am no longer strong enough to tough an episode out, but they are not the whole answer, not without side effects and not fool proof.
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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. I for one appreciate this
I was threatened at gunpoint by a friend on Prozac. He also threatened some other people in different incidents. He is bipolar and later we were told that he should have never been given Prozac in the first place but, as it is, I feel lucky to be alive. The effect is very real. Twice he was put on Prozac, twice he bought a gun and started waving it around. I realize not everyone reacts like this, but I don't think it's fair to put people on mind-altering drugs without giving them at least a few days' hospital time to monitor how they react. People do get killed, or kill themselves, over this. Andrea Yates just had her medication changed -- if she had been monitored in a hospital for a couple weeks to see how she reacted to the change, her kids might be alive and she wouldn't be in prison. Insurance companies are too cheap to make sure people get the monitoring they need, so innocent people have to die to save their bottom line. It stinks! The only way to know if you will be helped or harmed by these drugs is to try them and observe their effects. There would be less resistance to these drugs if this could be done without putting the patient's friends and families at risk. Not to mention the patient's life, freedom, and future which could be destroyed in a moment by one violent or suicidal act.
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Yemp4734 Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. "he should have never been given Prozac"
Misdiagnosis. You're right. He should have been on Lithium or Wellbutrin. You NEVER give a bipolar person an SSRI.
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bookworm65t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. This bipolar is doing well on a SSRI
Wellbutrin doesn't work for me & Effexor made me suicidal. Lexapro is on this list, but it is the best thing to happen to me (other than the wonderful therapist & psychiatrist that I found). But the point made earlier, that a patient should be closely monitored by their doctor while adjusting to a new medication is one that I agree with, but we all know that the insurance companies would never agree to spending $$$ to ensure our or others' safety.
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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Prozac is also given for..
erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, along with Viagra.
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Yemp4734 Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. I think this will cause MORE suicides
people who are depressed and at risk for suicide (i.e. the people who will be prescribed these meds) should be treated. If left untreated suicide is a very possible result. Many times these meds work. (I should know, I've been on most of them) Sometimes the meds can't help though, just like any other illness. This does NOT necessarily mean the med caused the suicide - it was more than likely the depression (that the med could not help) that causes the suicide.

I found most of them to be unhelpful, but I don't think any of them made things worse. Kind of like taking a sugar pill - no effect one way or the other.

I am worried that because of this warning people who are suicidal either themselves (or family) will not accept treatment... leading to a suicide that could have perhaps been avoided.

I would like to see a study of non-depressed happy people given anti-depressants to see if any of them turn suicidal. Giving them to people already at risk of suicide, then saying "Oh, must have been the anti depressant!" is BS. It's like treating someone for AIDS as much as you can, then when they die saying "Oh it must have been the treatment rather than the AIDS virus"
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. Well, that IS the central question
although it appears that the evidence militates in a different direction. Treatment is one thing; efficacious treatment is another. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

You mention that you'd like to see a study of non-depressed happy people given anti-depressants to see if any of them turn suicidal. I'm sure that other people would like to see that evidence, too- except for the fact that it is profoundly unethical to give a person an allegedly harmful drug. Not that it stops certain groups from advocating it and corrupt officials from implementing it. See, e.g. Federal Panel Okays Limited Pesticide Tests on Humans.
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #18
49. Warning: reading side effects on drug labels can cause depression


Message:
I was diagnosed with MS 14 years ago and believe that Prozac saved my life. Of course an illness like that can cause depression: if it doesn't you might want to check yourself for a heartbeat. But it is the "clinical" depression that can be particularly debilitating without treatment.

I've tried quite a few others when I seemed to flat-line on Prozac

Wellbutrin: created cranky depressed person
Zoloft: created angry chainsaw wielding depressed person
Remeron: comatose like sleeping alternating with waking moments of massive peanut butter consumption...fat sleepy depressed person

But those drugs worked wonders for others.

I now read, but mostly ignore, side affect warnings. They all read as though written by a schizophrenic. "Will cause drowsiness and inability to sleep" etc. Even the side effects listed on an aspirin is enough to give you a heart attack

Mostly these all inclusive lists of reactions are just disclaimers for pharmaceutical lawyers who are basically another dangerous side effect of drugs themselves.

Which reminds me...time for my Prozac


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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. Question...I hope it's not too stupid
What would happen to someone who wasn't depressed that took antidepressants?

Would they become really really happy?

Or would it not affect them at all?
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ece_democrat Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. not stupid at all
From what little I know and read, the SSRI's like Prozac,
etc., "calm" or slow down the removal of seratonin
in the brain to more appropriate levels (hence SSRI or
specific seratonin reuptake inhibitors...reuptake meaning the
removal of seratonin placed into the system).  A friend of
mine who is a psychiatrist says you can place the stuff in the
drinking water and unless you need it (ie, the SSRI) it won't
work.  In other words, it's not a "happy" pill like
some 
anti-antidepressant groups say.  I like to think of it being
kind of like insulin...you certainly wouldn't prohibit someone
needing insulin for diabetes because of the physical chemical
inbalance...same thing here for folks who are depressed.  All
IMHO.  
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childslibrarian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Welcome to DU
Good post!
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ender Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #27
186. not a good post...
totally based on falsehoods.

there is NO WAY that playing with the seretonin levels would have "no effect".

the really, truly scary aspect of these drugs is - we dont know what the hell theyre doing, and dont know why they help some people, and severely hurt others.
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #186
197. You are making a correlation that doesn't exist --
There is an association, however weak, but don't try to turn it into a correlation. That's dishonest.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
72. We measure insulin..when seratonin is measured I will buy that
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #72
93. Ahem, NSMA - we actually measure blood glucose, don't we?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 04:14 PM by Snow
but you make a good point. I have a theory that there's some depression that's more norepinephrine or dopamine than seratonin - and who knows what else mght be involved. We can, as you know, measure blood seratonin - the problem is, does that reflect what's goingon in the brain.

However, if you want to see some interesting stuff, look in pubmed for studies that look at the effects of, what's the phrase - meals that have no tryptophan in them. When they give these zero-tryptophan meals to subjects with depression history, even if they're okay at the start, within a matte of a couple of hours they're showing depression symptoms. Really amazing how quick the response is. I'm trying to think of a good term to plug into pubmed but haven't come up with one yet. "tryptophan" and "restriction" might work. There's some very interesting work on tryptophan, depression, and pain tolerance (to a cold pressor) as well.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #93
98. Very interesting
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 04:16 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
There's also similar studies on epinephrine and norepinephrine as regards pain nociceptors. If you have some titles of studies I would be very interested in reading them. I don't paint all these drugs with a broad brush in terms of benefits but was reading your posts below about the efficacy of tricyclics and do find it interesting that these drugs that DO have long term studies are practically abandoned in favor of SSRI"S..a similar thing happened with anti-biotics versus broad spectrum (and very expensive) anti- biotics and we are now trending backwards.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #98
103. Here's the magic words to get you at some interesting studies.
the phrase you want is "acute tryptophan depletion". Here's the pubmed url:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed

plug in that phrase and there's all kinds of interesting things pop up. Even an ordinary google on that phrase yields a lot of interesting, and maybe more readable stuff.
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WatchWhatISay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. I dont know, but
they dont make depressed people feel really happy, just normal.
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Kickin_Donkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. BINGO!!!
You are correct. Anti-depressant medications do not make you "happy" or "high." That is the major misconception of people who aren't familiar.

Anti-depressant drugs help pull the person up out of their depression or depressive symptons and make them feel ... normal.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Exactly
SSRIs don't work by boosting happiness but by reducing depression/anxiety.

If you are not depressed or suffering from anxiety attacks, they will
have little effect on you (note: not necessarily zero effect though).
Unfortunately, if you *are* depressed or suffering from anxiety attacks,
they may still have little effect on you - it depends (as others have
already said) on the specifics of your particular case as to how useful
or otherwise any particular drug will be.

Sometimes dosage changes may be necessary, sometimes changing to a different
type of SSRI, sometimes a combination of tablets - that's why the doctor
has to be involved in the decision chain and why monitoring is a good
move.

Nihil
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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
198. well, in at least one case, she could have died
A near relative of mine reported being tired and was given antidepressants. They took away her sense of smell but otherwise did nothing except provide her doctor with a false sense that he had "done something." She nearly died of a heart attack, at which time they discovered the tiredness was caused by a 98 percent clogged artery and not depression.

Depression is too often diagnosed to chase away women who are actually suffering from serious illnesses. She was a slim, fit woman who exercised an hour a day so they just assumed she couldn't have heart disease. Sigh.

I don't know if the drugs have ever been given to "perfectly healthy" people -- if such people even exist after age 40 -- but I do know that LOTS of women are given these drugs because doctors do not take seriously symptoms of serious health problems if the only symptom is being tired or achy.

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
33. FDA Bars report linking antidepressants to suicide
I've been following this story for quite some time. The corruption in the process- which is literally putting peoples' lives at risk- is unbelievable. See:

San Francisco Chronicle, Feb. 1, 2004
By Bob Waters

A scientist at the Food and Drug Administration has been barred from publicly presenting his finding that several leading antidepressants may increase the risk of suicidal behaviors among children, according to sources inside the FDA.

<snip>

Mosholder, a child psychiatrist, reviewed data from 20 clinical trials involving more than 4,100 children and eight different antidepressants. His preliminary analysis, according to two FDA sources familiar with the report's contents, concluded that there was an increased risk of suicidal behavior among children being treated for depression with Paxil and several other antidepressants.

<snip>

While Mosholder's safety analysis report may eventually be completed and made public, some FDA insiders fear that withholding it from Monday's hearing indicates that the agency may be siding with the pharmaceutical industry in its long-running battle with critics of antidepressants. "Why is the agency sitting on its hands and acting as if there isn't a risk when their own scientists have looked at the data and concluded that there is?" one FDA official remarked.

<snip>

But critics, including consumer advocates and mental health professionals contend, based on other studies, that the drugs are often ineffective and sometimes dangerous and that the FDA has failed to vigorously investigate the risks and protect children's safety. "The FDA is shielding the industry," said Vera Sharav, president of the Alliance for Human Research Protection, a consumer advocacy group.

No link due to date.




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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. And there are plenty of explanations
Among them, here's a simple one:

Parents stick the kids on the meds, and figure the kid's on medication, he must be fine, and ignore the underlying cause, as well as any warning signs that the medications isn't working.

Things get worse, and BOOM.

The meds didn't do it, the parents' ignoring the warning signs because they figured the meds were Magic Pills, that was the problem.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. And model specifications take them into account.
Obviously there are reverse causation issues- and researchers have to control for these related variables or else they wouldn't be able to establish anything meaningful that could withstand peer review.

I imagine that it's pretty tricky to design a study like the ones in Britain- and it would be interesting to see what's in the FDA's meta-analysis- but of course, since it's been supressed, that's not possible.

It would be cool if Snow, our resident epidemiologist, would weigh in here. I'd be very interested to hear what he has to say. Maybe I'll PM him.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. Haarrummpphh, yes, well, since I've been invited to pontificate,
I guess I shall. Tricky, to say the least. Elementary randomized clinical trials (RCT), for those of you unfamiliar with it - you randomize people to treatment, or more likely, standard treatment vs new treatment, and compare the rates of improvement & side-effects. Then if your drug works, you see a higher rate of improvement and/or a lower rate of side effects in your new drug group. What people looking in from outside often don't realize is that within both groups there are people who do worse on the given drug, whose condition deteriorates or stays the same, and who suffer side-effects. If these are less than the standard treatment, then the new drug goes on. And with the much larger numbers of people taking the drug after it goes to market, you see much larger numbers with side-effects or non-reponse - even though that proportion probably is the same as the original clinical trial. And rare side-effects pop up generally only when there're thousands of people taking the med, at which time, since you're no longer in randomized trial mode, it gets really difficult to tell what's causing the side-effect. And that's what seems to be at issue in this particular case. Incidentally, I thought the LA Times article was reasonably well done. Okay, obvious so far? And even with failed ineffective drugs, there will be some people helped by them.

With the SSRI's, it's not so much a matter of improved effectiveness compared to the old standard treatment (which was mostly a class of drugs called tricyclics) as a reduced side-effect profile. In practice, this means a more effective medication, since people won't stop using it due to unpleasant side-effects. However, this is a class of drugs that we really don't understand very well. It's exciting and interesting that this brain chemical imbalance is part of mood disorders, although there's definitely a chicken and egg question here - but the thought that physiology could influence behavior was at the time a novel idea. But the mainline anti-depressants weren't thought up as that at all - they started life as an improvement on the old-line antihistamines, like benedryl, to which they're related. The fiddling was done to eliminate the cholinergic side-effects, which any of you who've taken benedryl are familiar with - dry mouth, drowsiness, and the like. The tri-cyclics affected seratonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine. The SSRI inventors figured just going after seratonin would make a better 'silver bullet'. And for the most part they were right. The main problems are that we really don't understand seratonin very well - what its total actions are, where it acts - there's a whole seratonin secretion system in the abdomen and the gut, and what's that all about? So now we're sort of learning as we go.

The main problem in this business is of course disentangling the disease and the drug effects. Very, very tricky. There was a study years ago that purported to show that coffee drinking resulted in increased miscarriages. Women who drank coffee early in pregnancy had miscarriages, so the time sequence seemed right. It wasn't though - it seems that distaste for certain smells and flavors is a protective mechanism in pregnancy, and when that fails, it's a sign of a pregnancy in trouble - in other words, the failing pregnancy actually preceded the coffee drinking. Most physicians are very poorly trained in scientific research, and have a great deal of difficulty understanding problems like this one - where you have a bad side-effect, the suicides or violent behaviors, that could occur either as a result of the disease or the treatment. Physicians are trained observers of the individual - not of the population or the group - so they will happily add up anecdotal evidence and think it's scientific proof. There seems to be a lot of that going on here. That doesn't mean I'm debunking the side-effects story - there could indeed be something there, but I haven't yet seen good evidence for it, only anecdotal data - and accumulated anecdotes still don't make good data.

Someone was wondering what would happen with non-depressed people given the drug - that is in fact what usually happens in phase 2 drug trials - healthy subjects are given the med to see what sorts of effects pop up. Again, you'll get the most common effects only - usually a few hundred subjects, so effects that happen less than 1% of the time or so may not be seen. It is not, however, a happy pill in any sense of the word, although something like that has happened. Sometimes in medicine we get lazy and diagnose by response to a med. With Parkinson's Disease, response to l-dopamine is part of the diagnosis, and it used to be people diagnosed attention deficit hyperactivity by response to ritalin. However, ritalin is a drug that will cause the same response in healthy (okay, non-ADD/ADHD) kids. So we can mislead ourselves a lot.

Finally, those of you reporting experiences -fine, but that reflects only your experience with the drug. You truly can't generalize from it. If it works for you, great, go with it. If it was awful, then don't touch it with a ten-foot pole - but your experience doesn't really mean it's time to ban it or the drug companies are evil. Both may be true, but you can't say so based on a bad med trip.

and finally finally - be cautious of tring to treat mood disorders just with meds. Word is that you get the best results using CBT - cognitive behavioral therapy - with the meds there to help you along. Exercise seems to be essential as well. And final final final thought - there's some possible alternative meds out there - Andrew Weil thinks very highly of dilantin - and it's pretty well-known that acute sleep deprivation will often lift temporarily even a bad depression.

Okay, let's hope I don't kill the thread here - that's always so depressing......
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. What took you so long?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 10:01 AM by lazarus
Thank you so much for introducing some educated and rational information into the thread, Snow. We needed that.

One question:

Don't researchers face a serious ethical question using placebos with seriously depressed people, particularly children, making standard research studies that we're all familiar with, such as double blinds, difficult to perform?
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. No, that's typically not the way it works....
When you're testing a new drug, there's usually already a standard treatment in use - there's your placebo. You give the controls the standard treatment, which you already know works, and the experimentals get the new med, which you hope works better but don't know for sure (else why do the trial). When you see someone doing a clinical trial with placebo control and you know there's a treatment already available, then that means a coupla things: the condition is not anything serious or one hopes the institutional review board would not have approved the study, and the study designer wants to make the med look really good - likely to push sales.

In the mid-90's, though, there were some problems of the type you describe, and here's how they arose. There's a slightly more complex trial design called a crossover. What you do is use each subject as their own control, by giving them a trial on either drug or placebo, then after a period of time switching them over to the other. You randomize and double blind this, of course. The appeal is that the control group is exactly like the test group because it's the same subjects. The psychiatric drug testers were concerned about medication persistence in the body and overlapping effects, so they would do a washout of a couple of weeks between treatments. So a patient would get, say, the standard treatment for a period, then go off meds altogether to wash out, then go on the second med. Naturally during the washout they would get symptomatic, and since a major concern in psychiatric illness is the 'kindling effect' (the more you show symptoms the worse your disease gets) the clinicians worried about this. I had a long talk with a psychiatrist friend (psychiatrists like long talks) and we figured the most ethical way around this while still preserving the scientific usefulness was to have a medicated washout - ie, to have the test period, then continue the first med into a week of washout, switch meds, then have a second week of washout, and not use any data until the half-life of drug 1 was over. She was happy with that, and that's how they started running the trials.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Ah, that was what I was getting at
I was wondering, because I knew there had to be ethical questions regarding placebos. I didn't mean to say they used placebos, I just didn't state it clearly.

Thanks for clarifying the study process, this is fascinating, and I have a personal interest, as well.
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Placebo definition
second def according to websters, which applies to this subject-

"an inert or innocuous substance used especially in controlled experiments testing the efficacy of another substance (as a drug)"

I wouldnt call giving another "working" drug in a test situation
a placebo, for it is actually a drug. As i've always understood it,
a placebo is simply a "sugar pill" etc-

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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Webster is not a medical book,
and you're not quite understanding of usual clinical trial practice. And it could be whatever media source you're getting your information from has it wrong as well. Lotta badly educated science reporters out there, even worse, there're lotta reporters with agendas out there as well.
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. eh...from webster.com
Agendas?
I would suggest you watch any number of these brilliant pharm commercials, of which at the end they will say ..."in test results some were given a placebo,or sugar pill...."

because thats what a placebo is, it is a fake pill which contains
no useful elements-

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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Pharm commercials are not medical journals...
and who knows what's going on. It's not where I'd look to see how the study was done. At a guess, I'd say they're dumbing things down for the public, but it could be they actually did use inert placebo controls, in which case see post above.
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SeattleDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #65
82. pivotal Prozac and Zoloft trials used placebo controls
I have a PDR by my desk and both of these drugs got approved for the tx of depression in adults with results of placebo-controlled, RCTs. They each did a standard type trial, and they also did a trial where all patients got open-label active treatment for 8 weeks, then responders got randomized to continue active tx or to receive a placebo.

Obviously, I'm not looking at the published papers to see how/if they addressed any ethical issues or if patients also got counselling for example. And, while it may have been deemed ethical to use placebos in the late 80's/early 90's, that may no longer be the case.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. That's interesting.....
perhaps they did it because of the tricyclic side-effects - the old active placebo problem. MAO inhibiters would be even more of a problem because of the dietary restrictions. And the treating responders after a period is interesting as well. Normally you do that sort of thing to sort out the people who won't take their meds - wonder if that's what was going on. In any event, that means the ssri's have not been widely tested against previous treatments - but I guess the point wasn't necessarily that ssri's work better, but that there's a lower side-effect profile. Same with vioxx and celebrex and the like - they don't work any better than aspirin, except that people are more likely to take them because they don't get gut burn.
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SeattleDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #86
92. tangential, but....
"Same with vioxx and celebrex and the like - they don't work any better than aspirin, except that people are more likely to take them because they don't get gut burn"

Except that in fact, that may not be true! I recall something recently about GI effects from cox-2 inhibitors, calling that whole theory into question, but that's an entirely different thread!

:-)

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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Yeah, but that wasn't supposed to be what happened...
and the cox-2 inhibitors really are a classic case of an overhyped overpriced drug. "Super-aspirin", indeed!
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #65
87. Here's your medical definition-
PLACEBO- Any dummy medical treatment, originally, a medicinal preparation having no specific pharmacological activity against the patients illness or complaint given solely for the psychophysiological effects of the treatment-

from http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/

but of course you'll call these doctors quacks as well?

Regardless, i rest my case, this is what i'm referring to, my
(and websters) defintion is correct, i am thru arguing this point with you-
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. Whoever called anybody quacks?
My statements about what usually happens in clinical trials still stands. You ever run a clinical trial?
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #91
159. Sprockets, I don't care to have what I said misrepresented.
mind telling me where I called anybody quacks?
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SeattleDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #87
97. active control is probably the term being looked for
it's semantics, but in general, placebo does in fact refer to inert ingredients, to a sham or non-active medication. In the well-designed trial, it will look identical to the active drug being studied.

However, when another type of treatment is the comparator, you no longer have a placebo-controlled trial. You have a comparison of two active treatments, and the control group receives an active medications, often called the active control. If you want to "blind" the study, you make the drugs look identical. However, blinding can be difficult when two treatments have different side effect profiles.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #45
177. Look deeper at the studies Snow -- the bar for these pychotropic
drugs is real low. I believe that the drug companies only have to show two positive studies to get the drugs approved even in the face of many 'negative' studies. That's the dirty little secret to the process. When a meta-analysis is performed the advantage of the SSRIs vanishes. But who's to argue with the power of the placebo effect -- just wish the SSRI sugar pills didn't have so many nasty side effects and that they were as cheap as sugar. I think the real issue is that medicine should FIRST DO NO HARM!
Also it's too bad that SSRIs have masked the more interesting questions about depression, namely why it's so wide spread (and growing exponentially, especially since the introduction of SSRIs) and so negatively correlated to diet factors (especially EPA and DHA). Your mother was right! Fish is brain food!

See:ABSTRACT

This article reports an analysis of the efficacy data submitted to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for approval of the 6 most widely prescribed antidepressants approved between 1987 and 1999. Approximately 80% of the response to medication was duplicated in placebo control groups, and the mean difference between drug and placebo was approximately 2 points on the 17-item (50-point) and 21-item (62-point) Hamilton Depression Scale. Improvement at the highest doses of medication was not different from improvement at the lowest doses. The proportion of the drug response duplicated by placebo was significantly greater with observed cases (OC) data than with last observation carried forward (LOCF) data. If drug and placebo effects are additive, the pharmacological effects of antidepressants are clinically negligible. If they are not additive, alternative experimental designs are needed for the evaluation of antidepressants. ......more.....more..... at:

http://www.namiscc.org/Research/2002/DrugEfficacy.htm

Also of interest: http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:qRdocAytE9sJ:www.baumhedlundlaw.com/Attorney%2520Articles/kb-ssrilitigation/SSRI%2520litigation.pdf+SSRI+FDA+approval+criteria+number+of+studies&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

From a little paper I wrote on the subject a few years back:


.... Researchers are beginning to suspect that a decrease in the intake of omega-3 EFAs may adversely affect the nervous system and increase susceptibility to depression. Because 60% of the brain is fat and DHA is the most abundant fat in the brain, low levels of DHA can result in alterations of neuronal membranes that, in turn, cause changes in brain function. The connection between low DHA levels and brain neurochemistry that predisposes people to specific emotional disorders may lie in the relationship of brain DHA to brain serotonin levels. Hibbeln et al. (1996) demonstrated the even among healthy volunteers, low plasma concentrations of DHA predicted low concentrations of a marker of brain serotonin turnover as well as low amounts of cerebrospinal fluid 5-hydroxyindolacetic acid (CSF 5-HIAA), a serotonin metabolite. Low concentrations of these two substances are strongly and reliably associated with depression and suicide. (Hibbeln, 1998) DHA is concentrated in neural tissue and is important to nervous system function. U p to 45% of the fatty acids in synaptic membranes are composed of long chain essential fatty acids. Adequate DHA intake is necessary for optimal synaptic function. Low levels of serotonin have been documented in people who suffer from depression or are violent or suicidal. Rats fed a diet deficient in omega-3 fatty acids display a compensatory increase in serotonin receptor density similar to that seen in the frontal cortex of human suicide victims. But it's not simply the amount of omega-3 in our diet that matters to our brains. Hibbeln (1998) suggests what may be important for good mental health is the amount of omega-3 fatty acids relative to the other essential fatty acid family, the omega 6 or linoleic acid group. (See Figure 1) The omega 6 fatty acids are ubiquitous in the American diet and are found in abundance in most vegetable oils and grain fed meat products. Too much omega-6 in our bodies, in tandem with too little omega-3, could increase the risk of depression. When cholesterol and fat were lowered in one study by replacing animal fat with fish, depression improved rather than worsened. But in most cholesterol studies, people replace animal fats with corn oil, which the body cannot convert to DHA. (Potero, 1996)
Edwards (1998) compared measurements of red blood cell membrane (RBCM) fatty acid levels in 10 depressed patients and 14 matched healthy controls. Edwards reported finding that the patients with depression had significantly lower RBCM levels of both DHA and EPA. This correlated with a lower mean dietary intake of DHA and, generally, of other omega-3 EFAs and a higher omega-6 EFA intake than those patients without depression.
There are several ways in which an abundance of omega 3 fatty acids might act to enhance mood. Serotonin it is thought is transmitted from one cell to the next more efficiently when the cell membranes are relatively fluid, and it appears that omega 3 fatty acids such as DHA keep neural cells at optimal fluidity. Phospholipids make up 59 per cent of the dry weight of the brain. They are essential for neuronal, and especially for synaptic structure, and play key roles in the signal transduction responses to dopamine, serotonin, glutamate and acetylcholine. The unsaturated fatty acid components of phospholipids are abnormal in depression, with deficits of eicosapentaenoic acid and other omega 3 fatty acids, and excesses of the omega 6 fatty acid arachidonic acid, and according to Horrobin (2001), correction of this abnormality by treatment with eicosapentaenoic acid improves depression. Interestingly over 50% of depressed patients do not respond to antidepressants that are thought to act on the pre-synaptic uptake of serotonin or other neurotransmitters. Horrobin (2001) postulates that it is just as likely that events that follow receptor occupation or so called signal transduction or cell signaling abnormalities might be responsible. One important component of the signal transduction process involves the interaction of neurotransmitters with phospholipid metabolism.
Phospholipids are the main structural elements of the brain. Each phospholipid molecule consists of a three-carbon atom backbone. To the first and second carbons are attached fatty acids. The fatty acid at the first position is often saturated or monounsaturated but particularly in the brain the fatty acid in the middle position is almost always a highly unsaturated fatty acid of either the omega 3 or omega 6 family of fatty acids. To the third position is attached a phosphorus atom and to that is attached a relatively water-soluble head group. The middle position fatty acids are important in many cell signaling processes and receptor types, including dopamine, serotonin, glutamate and acetylcholine receptors and is linked via a G protein mechanism to activation of phospholipases Also both the PUFA and the phosphate groups are active signaling molecules in their own right influencing protein kinases, cyclic nucleotides, calcium movements and gene expression. The PUFA can also be rapidly converted to other cell signaling molecules including prostaglandins, leukotrienes and hydroxy acids. It is important that the signal transduction process should be terminated rapidly. The supply of PUFAs to the middle position of phospholipids and to the signaling cycles appears to be of major importance in depression.
As yet most of the human studies have involved analysis of fatty acid composition of phospholipids in plasma and red cells. However, while certainly not identical with brain phospholipid composition, it is known that in humans there are strong and significant correlations between phospholipid composition in blood and brain. The findings have been remarkably consistent in studies performed in the UK, Belgium, Australia, the USA and Japan. In depressed persons the plasma and particularly red cell concentrations of omega 3 fatty acids and especially of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) have been unusually low, while the concentrations of the omega 6 PUFAs, in particular arachidonic acid, have been relatively or absolutely high. These data are consistent with the epidemiological studies. In countries where omega 3 fatty acid intake "mainly from oily fish is high, then the risk of depression is relatively low and vice versa.
According to Horrobin (2001) these abnormalities in phospholipid composition have important implications for signal transduction. Both omega 3 and omega 6 PUFAs are in the brain and both may be released by phospholipases. However, the two types of PUFA can have very different effects on cell signaling . In general, the omega 6 fatty acid, arachidonic acid, is proinflammatory and is associated with up regulation of release of various cytokines. In contrast, EPA and the other omega 3 fatty acids are anti-inflammatory and have a range of other desirable actions on the cardiovascular system, on diabetes, on cancer and on bone. Thus the omega6:omega3 ratio found in depression may be associated with changes in signal transduction processes throughout the body, including the brain. .........

Although the precise mechanism of their activity is not known, nor whether it is primarily the DHA or EPA or both that is responsible for the therapeutic effect, Stoll et al (1999) theorized that:
"Biochemical studies of human white blood cells show that high-dose therapy with omega-3 fatty acids leads to the incorporation of these polyunsaturated compounds into the membrane phospholipids crucial for cell signaling,… Increased concentrations of omega-3 fatty acids in membrane phospholipids appear to suppress phosphatidylinositol-associated signal transduction pathways … the incorporation of the polyunsaturated omega-3 fatty acids into the lipid bilayer of the cell membrane alters the physical and chemical properties of the membrane…, possibly producing a local environment in which the membrane phospholipids are more resistant to hydrolysis by phospholipases. This could result in reduced generation of the second messenger molecules diacylglycerol and inositol triphosphate, thereby producing less activation of 'downstream' intracellular signaling molecules, such as protein kinase C and calcium ion…It is possible that the omega-3 fatty acids also inhibit signal transduction mechanisms in the human central nervous system. Recent work by several investigators strongly suggests that the mechanism of action of typical mood stabilizers, such as lithium and valproate , involves a similar inhibition of postsynaptic signal transduction processes."

This assessment is supported Litman (reported in Bender, 1998) who described DHA-containing phospholipids potentiating receptor activation through G-protein signaling pathways. "Many neurotransmitter receptors implicated in the pathophysiology of affective disorders are members of the superfamily of G-protein-coupled receptors …” so modulation of G-protein mediated signal transduction may underlie mechanisms of antidepressants as well as mood stabilizers............

Let's get together soon and eat some non-farmed Alaskan salmon! Oem!



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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #177
178. Some references for those of you who are skeptics regarding
the connections between the fatty acids you eat and your mental health (as well as your heart health, your GI health, etc.)

References

Adams PB\ Lawson S\ Sanigorski A\ Sinclair, AJ (1996) Arachidonic acid to eicosapentaenoic acid ratio in blood correlates positively with clinical symptoms of
depression< Lipids 20> 46-50

Bender, KJ (1998) Dietary Fatty Acids Essential for Mental Health. Psychiatric Times, December, 1998 Vol XVI (12)

Edwards R, Peet M, Shay J, Horrobin D (1998), Omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acid levels in the diet and in red blood cell membranes of depressed patients. J Affect Disord 48(2-3):149-155.

Fincastleww 2001 http://www.mhnj.com/d_articles2.html

Hibbeln JR, Umhau JC, George DT, SalemN Jr. Do plasma
polyunsaturates predict hostility and violence? World Rev Nutr Diet 1996;
82: 175-86.

Hibbeln JR (1998a), Fish consumption and major depression. Lancet 351(9110):1213 .

Hibbeln JR, Linnoila M, Umhau JC et al. (1998b), Essential fatty acids predict metabolites of serotonin and dopamine in cerebrospinal fluid among healthy control subjects, and early- and late-onset alcoholics. Biol Psychiatry 44(4):235-242.

Horrobin, DF Phospholipid Metabolism and Depression, the Possible Roles of Phospholipase A1 and Coenzyme A Independent Transacylase,
Hum Psychopharmacol Clin Exp 16. 45-52 (2001)


Levine, B. Patient Care, Jan 30, 1998 v32 n2 p87(4)
DHA in health and disease. (risks associated with docosahexaenoic acid deficiency)

Maes M, Smith R, Christophe A, Cosyns P, Desnyder R, Meltzer H. Fatty acid composition in major depression:decreased omega 3 fractions in cholesteryl esters and increased C20: 4 omega 6/C20:5 omega 3 ratio in cholesteryl esters and phospholipids J Affect Disord 1996 Apr 26;38(1):35-46

Mellor, JE, Jonathan D. E. Laugharne, Malcolm Peet Omega-3 fatty acid supplementation in schizophrenic patients. Human Psychopharmacology Clinical and Experimental. Vol 11, Issue 1,1996. 39-46


McLean Hospital (1999), Study finds fish oil relieves symptoms of manic depression. Available at: www.mcleanhospital.org/PublicAffairs/199905b_FishOil.htm.

Murray CJL, Lopez AD, eds. Global burden of disease: a comprehensive
assessment of mortality and disability from diseases, injuries and risk
factors in 1990 and projected to 2020. Boston MA: Harvard University Press,
1996.

National Institute of Mental Health (1999), Omega-3 fatty acids in treatment of major depression and bipolar disorder: a double-blind placebo-controlled study. Clinical Research Study 99-M-0181. Available at: clinicalstudies.info.nih.nimh. gov.cgi/detail.cgi?A_99-M-0181.html.

Stoll AL, Severus WE, Freeman MP et al. (1999), Omega 3 fatty acids in bipolar disorder. A preliminary double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. Arch Gen Psychiatry 56(5):407-412.

Peet M., Mellor J. Double-blind placebo controlled trial of n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids as an adjunct to neuroleptics. Schizophr Res 1998; 29: 160.

Potera, C.Psychology Today, May-June 1996 v29 n3 p20(1)
Prozac of the sea. (omega-3 fatty acids)

Rodgers, J. Psychology Today, Sept 2000 v33 i5 p23
Fishing For Happiness.

Simopoulos, AP andRobinson, J. The Omega Plan, The Medically Proven Diet that Restores Your Body’s Essential Nutritional Balance. Harper Collins, New York. 1998


Tufts University Health & Nutrition Letter, March 1997 v15 n1 p4(2)
A type of fat we may need more of: omega-3 fatty acids)(includes related article on good sources of omega-3 fatty acids)(Special Report)

Weissman MM, Bland RC, Canino GJ, etal. Cross- natonal
epidemiologyof major depression and bipolar disorder. JAMA 1996; 276:
293-99.

Yehuda,S, Rabinovitz,S and Mostofsky , D Mini-Review Essential Fatty Acids Are Mediators of Brain Biochemistry and Cognitive Functions. Journal of Neuroscience Research 56:565–570 (1999)
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #177
216. Sorry, Liz, I missed your post in the flurry.
I was giving a general description of how the drug trial process works; I really don't know about your specific comment on psychotropic drugs. I would think, though, if it were a reformulation that didn't necessarily give an improved response but that had a lower side-effect profile, things would go quicker, since it's essentially using a known mechanism but paring things down a bit. You know what I mean? Like the cox-2 inhibitors?

Second, beware of meta-analyses - they have a veneer of objectivity but are easy to manipulate. I'd trust a big, well-run trial a lot sooner, or even just a decent lit review. Third, your statement " why it's so wide spread (and growing exponentially, especially since the introduction of SSRIs) and so negatively correlated to diet factors (especially EPA and DHA)." is news to me. Do you have pointers to that? I'm always skeptical of time trends in any disorder - autism, asthma, whatever - they're very difficult to interpret because it's hard to tell what else is going on.

The diet stuff is interesting, though, and I confess unfamiliar - the omega-3's in particular. Good thing I love salmon (used to buy a salmon every week from the fisherman at the Ballard docks). This sounds like a good case-control study in a population with enough variety in omega-3 intake to show an effect would be interesting. Wanna put together a grant proposal? (provided Walt Willet hasn't done it already, curse him!)
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #216
219. Meta analysis used FDA data ==
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 07:24 PM by Emillereid
The 'meta-analysis' avoided much of the criticisms of a lot of meta-analyses since it had access to the raw data submitted by the drug companies to the FDA. Here's a relevant quote:

"Although antidepressant medication is widely regarded as efficacious, a recent meta-analysis of published clinical trials indicates that 75 percent of the response to antidepressants is duplicated by placebo (Kirsch & Sapirstein, 1998). These data have been challenged on a number of grounds, including the restriction of the analyses to patients who had completed the trials, the limited number of clinical trials assessed, the methodological characteristics of those trials, and the use of meta-analytic statistical procedures (Klein, 1998).



The present article reports analyses of a data set to which these objections do not apply, namely, the data submitted to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for approval of recent antidepressant medications. We analyzed the efficacy data submitted to the FDA for the six most widely prescribed antidepressants approved between 1987 and 1999 (RxList: The Internet Drug Index, 1999): fluoxetine (Prozac), paroxetine (Paxil), sertraline (Zoloft), venlafaxine (Effexor), nefazodone (Serzone), and citalopram (Celexa). These represent all but one of the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI) approved during the study period. The FDA data set includes analyses of data from all patients who attended at least one evaluation visit, even if they subsequently dropped out of the trial prematurely. Results are reported from all well controlled efficacy trials of the use of these medications for the treatment of depression.



FDA medical and statistical reviewers had access to the raw data and evaluated the trials independently. The findings of the primary medical and statistical reviewers were verified by at least one other reviewer, and the analysis was also assessed by an independent advisory panel. More important, the FDA data constitute the basis on which these medications were approved. Approval of these medications implies that these particular data are strong enough and reliable enough to warrant approval. To the extent that these data are flawed, the medications should not have been approved. Khan, Warner, and Brown (2000) recently reported the results of a concurrent analysis of the FDA database. Similar to the Kirsch and Sapirstein report, their analysis revealed that 76% of response to antidepressant was duplicated by placebo.


In several respects, our analyses of the FDA data differ from, and supplement those, reported by Khan et al.

First, although information on all efficacy trials for depression are included in the FDA database, mean change scores were not reported to the FDA for some trials on which a significant difference between drug and placebo was not obtained. Thus, the summary data reported by Khan et al. overestimate drug/placebo differences. In contrast, we provide an estimate of drug/placebo differences that is based on those medications for which for all clinical trials were reported, thus eliminating the bias due to the exclusion of trials least favorable to the medication." (Read the whole article at the link I provided in the above post)

Also, the issue of needing just 2 positive studies is routine -- negative results do not have to be reported, but even when they are, they are discounted if the pharmaceutical companies can produce two studies indicating efficacy over placebo or worse, against another 'approved' drug which may have only marginally showed efficacy above placebo.

As an aside, I once witnessed an amazing placebo effect -- my middle daughter participated in the UCLA study researching the use of prozac in children. She 'improved' almost instantly and really benefited from the special talks with the research doctors -- turns out she was on the placebo the whole time -- of course the study was double blind and there was a blind switch in the middle. To tell you the truth the 'placebo' effect was faster and more complete than I'd ever seen with the real drug! Of course, what she was actually suffering was adolescence.

My statement about the growth of the depression industry comes from the numbers -- the rate of depression diagnoses has gone way up. The numbers are something like 14.4 million diagnoses in 1987 before widespread use of SSRIs and 25 million by 2001. Depression is actually going up -- WHO estimates it will be the number one illness by 2020, but also doctors are more likely to diagnose depression because they have SSRIs. A quote from a Stanford study: "The study also shows that the number of physician visits by patients for depression increased from 14.4 million in 1987 to 24.5 million in 2001.  Although Stafford said this increase was likely due to a number of factors, the advent of SSRIs certainly played a major role. "If you don't have medications you feel comfortable prescribing, your motivation for diagnosing someone as depressed is lower," he said. "Physicians feel comfortable with the treatment options so they're more likely to diagnose and treat their patients." http://www.actualizations.com/depressionmeds.htm

It's also being diagnosed on extremely shaky grounds for situational dysphorias that will resolve. The diagnoses of depression is actually way out of hand -- is usually done by non-psychiatrically trained first line doctors quite often just on the basis of the patient's request and not the specialized instruments used in research. I was once given paxil just because I asked for it -- didn't have to justify it at all. Scary when I look back on it. Another daughter was put on effexor, (she was actually diagnosed with with ADD and adolescent issues), had terrible reactions to it and and a horrible time getting it off of it. Most of her symptoms have gone away -- she later did some allergy tests and found that she was sensitive to quite a few foods. In fact, when she eats an offending food the first signs are changes in her personality. She can't cheat because those of us in her family know almost right away! I also make sure she eats lots of salmon and takes extra fish oil capsules.

By all means lets do a grant -- it's a wide open field. Stoll out of Harvard has done some great research. Did a study on bipolar using fish oil -- a lot too -- 9.3 grams per day, and the results were so stunning he quit the year long study after 6 months! The biggest problem is our country is probably the incredible imbalance between our ingestion of the C:18 omega 3s and 6s -- they compete for the same enzymes, but cascade into what one could almost call yin-yang, complementary effects throughout the body. The omega 6 line is turned on too much. The medium chain omega 3s can cascade into the longer EPA and DHA so vital to brain chemistry, but don't get the chance. Taking in the preformed long chain omega 3 short circuits this problem and feed the brain directly. Research has also showed good success with ADD and AdHD and other brain disorders.

Ideally research would use food sources, but it's pretty hard to blind Ss to what they're eating -- wonder if we could get some crazy food chemist to remove the long chain omega 3s from salmon? Fish oil has it's downside too -- hard to mask the fishy after- taste (freezing the capsules does help and the effect tends to lessen as the protocol continues). I suppose we could get a crazy chemist to add artificial fish taste to the placebo capsules -- I remember creating that artificial flavor in organic chemistry -- now if I can just find my notes.

BTW -- do you want to help me organize a night of revelry for LA DUers?
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #219
226. Hmmm, okay. So my statement stands - the rise in incidence is
diagnostic shift, right? And I'm sure you know the estimates for underdiagnosis & treatment, ie the proportion of those with the illness who never go in for either diagnosis or treatment? I think ECA and NHANES/NHIS put that at arond 80%, right? Do you have any more accurate numbers?

You're talking a clinical trial? Errk! Ummmm, what about a case-control study. Get a bunch of people with depression, newly diagnosed, anothe bunch without, and ask them about omega-3 intake. Since it's not a long-term latency sort of thing, we can just do a food frequency questionairre - a Willett or a Block. Let's do a Block, because Gladys doesn't charge, she's right here in CA, and she's a nice person (reminds me of my favorite aunt). Then we control for confounders - like omegas-3 users will be more concerned about their health, so they'll exercise & not smoke & so on, so we'll have to control for that. How much of a protective effect do you expect from the omega-3's? A doubling of protection requires sample size of at least 130 per group, assuming alpha of 0.05 & power of 80%. How does that sound? Or do you want to talk me into a clinical trial?
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #226
229. I was trained as a scientist, not a statistician, so my prejudice is
clinical trials (this is a joke-- actually psychology was so uptight about it's status as a science, it usually went overboard -- we couldn't even acknowledge the mind with which we were using to hypothesize and conduct the experiment -- I've found nutrition a lot more lenient!!) -- but what the hey, clinical trials are costly and harder to control. Besides I'm not sure how much epidemiological work has been done, so we might have a niche. Did you know there is a national depression screening day? see:http://www.mentalhealthscreening.org/depression.htm Is there a day for everything? Also see:http://www.med.umich.edu/depression/ and click on a pdf file on depression prevalence...adolescence (it gives breakdown by age, income etc.)

I'll have to think about the amount of omega 3 in the diet that is protective -- it depends on the ratio of C:18: 3 to 6 amounts (unfortunately 6 is ubiquitous in the food supply) and the ingestion of long chain forms (mainly cold water fatty fish).
Another clip from the paper I did:
Major depression is the greatest single cause of disability in the world according to the WHO (Murray et al., 1996) and its prevalence reveals a 60-fold variation across countries with a pattern remarkably similar to patterns of differences in mortality from cardiovascular disease (Weissman et al., 1996) This suggest that there may be common dietary risk factors associated with both. Comparing cross-national data on the prevalence of depression using rigorous methodologies and core biological symptoms, rather than self reports of mood (which are highly prone to cultural bias) developed by Weissman et al. (1996), Hibbeln and Salem (1995) found that higher consumption of fish was correlated with a lower annual prevalence of major depression. Countries where the consumption of fish is high have significantly less depression than countries where fish is less popular. In Japan, fish consumption is high, the traditional diet contains about 15 times the amount of omega 3 fatty acids than the American diet and the rate of depression is only about 1/10 of that of the US. The difference is particularly amazing when one compares only older people. While 44% of older American shows some signs of depression only about 2% of elderly Japanese do. Even in Japan the lowest rates of depression is found in fishing villages. Remarkably, interviewers could not find a single depression case in one Japanese fishing town.
While the amount of omega-6 fatty acids that we eat has risen, omega-3 levels have fallen. Estimates vary, but ideal ratios have been proposed that we should consume a one – to - one ratio to no more than four - to -one ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 fat...."

The correlations were good and tended to be 'dose' related.

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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #229
230. Okay, the Japanese study is useful for hypothesis generation....
and will buttress our case in our lit review in the proposal. But it's what we in epidemiology call an 'ecologic study' (for who knows what reason). What that means is you're looking at groups, not individuals. For example, suppose you do a comparison of rates of Parkinson's Disease in different counties in Nebraska, and it looks like rates are significantally higher in the middles counties along the Platte River/I-80. You conclude that small grain farming and pesticides must be causing the PD, 'cuz that's what goes on along the Platte. Problem is, you haven't looked at individuals with PD and determined their exposure to the pesticides - so it could be any number of other things - like high iron in the water - that's the problem. But such studies make a good starting point. We went through something similar with breast cancer and dietary fat in western vs asian countries. Hit me if you've heard all this before, by the way.

Clinical trials aren't so hard to control - you just do your admissions carefully and you randomize. It's the funding I'm more concerned about. Without some solid evidence it might be tough to get. Also, I don't have a track record in this area, so the NIH would not be impressed. And we'd need a clinical population, which as you know I can get, but it'd mean bringing in a lot of people, and we're beginning to talk real money. Also, are you talking treatment or prevention? If prevention, we'd need a lot of study subjects. So, let's back burner that for the moment.

What I was talking was an etiologic study to determine a protective effect. We'd need to administer the food frequency questionnaire (open to suggestions, here, by the way), and that'd involve interviewers, a project manager, a database manager/programmer. The rest of the data is available electronically, except for smoking and a screen for the controls so we know they aren't depressed or haven't been. Then we have a trained person give some sort of psychometric depression measure - I know a guy who's really good with that stuff - and then we'll see whether the depressives have lower omega intake, say, 6 months prior to depression symptom onset? How does all that sound? I'd guess a three year study, maybe 1.2 million to do it. Wonder if the feds have a Program Announcement out on this we could latch onto.

By the way, if any of the rest of you contributors to this thread are kibitzing, I'm sort of keeping this here deliberately. This is how science gets done, kids - this is the start of a research project. It takes at least a year-and-a-half to get funding, the study goes for three years, and at the end we hope we've found something interesting before someone else (hopefully not Walt Willett) finds it. Liz and I have to have expertise in the area enough to convince the NIH we can do this, as documented by degrees, publications, and previous accomplished grants, and if we don't have needed expertise we will bring in other researchers who do have the chops. And that's how it goes. It's really quite a lot of fun.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #230
233. A group effort -- I love it!
Actually I've been having fun at Pubmed and whoa -- there's a lot going on with fish oil and depression. There's more epidemiological work as well as clinical work going on than I thought. The data from both kinds of studies are meshing quite well.I don't think we have to worry so much about Willett as the NIH. But that's good -- they're the ones with money. We'll have to think up an angle. I wonder if somehow we could hook up with the October Depression screening day?

Here's a couple of more recent reviews:
http://www.mercola.com/2004/feb/14/omega_3_depression.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0FDN/4_8/111303983/p1/article.jhtml?term=

I've got to share a t-shirt I saw last Saturday at the anti-war rally in LA that gave me a nice chuckle. On the front it asked the question: "Feeling Depressed?" and on the back it said: "It might be political"



A flash: maybe we could randomly assign DUers to fish oil vs. placebo and see if we can control some of the contrariness so often displayed on this board.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #233
236. I'm running out of steam for the evening, past my bedtime and all,
but what pubmed search terms did you use - particularly for the fish oil? Also, do you think we should include people who are taking fish oil supplements? I'm torn. There's a lot of that sort of deliberate stuff out there - fishy eggs and so on - and people who seek out that sort of thing are different from people who don't, and it's easy to imagine that they might also differ on other risks for depression. Hmmmm. Maybe we could include the supp use as a separate exposure category. That captures both the use and the healthy behavior thing. No, wait, we want to be able to separate those effects. Aaaghhh, bedtime. Anyway, I'll do some pubmed digging & see what and who pops up. Do you have dietary instrument preferences? I think a food frequency questionnaire makes the most sense, but I'm not real up to date in this area.

Yes, let's start serving fish oil in Zomby Woof's coffee or something.....
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #233
241. Look at this so-called study, emillereid.....
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 12:58 PM by Snow
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12727707

36 subjects, split to three arms! Then they couldn't rule out chance. For heaven's sake, people who think they can do a study without at least talking to a methodologist really get my goat.

This one looks potentially very interesting, though, since people have always though cardio-vascular disease causes depression, not that both are caused by a third factor. I like that. However, I can't tell anything about the study design from the abstract, & the paper has a toll gate.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11600487

This one seems to be the biggie, eh?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10232294

and there's tons of comments listed.

Did you know schizophrenia also seems to be affected?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11257236

that strengthens the causal hypothesis, since it suggest a strong underlying physologic mechanism.

Don't know what to make of this study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9543204
Interesting, positive results, but really small study size. How expensive is it to run those red blood cell membrane assays, I wonder?

And this looks like your standard bioassay study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8735157

I came up with only 4 pages of hits, though, going back to the mid-90's. First run I used "depression" and "fish oil", then I changed "fish oil" to "omega" and "fat". I really don't see many epidemiologic studies at all. There's the Stol study, which looks interesting but I'd need to see the paper and the followups, and there's a bunch of very small clinical trials which nevertheless show either no results or positive findings. Encouraging, I'd say.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #241
248. Omegas and health
Actually the intake and balance of the omega 3s and 6s and their long chain derivatives (DHA. EPA, GLA, AA) are popping up as factors in all sorts of disorders including schizophrenia, depression, bipolar, dyslexia, ADD. hostility, cancer, CVD, GI health (remember the gut is a second brain that actually has more serotonin receptors than the brain -- excellent book by Gershon about this), etc. Remember the C:18 omega 3 and 6 fatty acids are the essential fatty acids -- and that they compete for the same enzymes. Fatty acids are the main structural components of every membrane in the body -- and the number and placement of their double bonds determines the fluidity and optimal functioning of every cell. We are bucky-balls of fat -- the lipid bi-layer of cell membranes keeps stuff that's supposed to be inside the cell, inside and stuff that's supposed to be outside, outside. How well they do this depends on the fat you eat. Whereas the body metabolizes proteins and carbohydrates into their constituent parts, amino acids and monosaccarhides, to be either reassembled or burned or stored, the fats you eat are to a great extent incorporated in the body more or less in the form in which they're eaten. A biochemist can tell you what kind of fat you've been eating by an analysis of either your cell membranes or your adipose tissue. The body does do some conversions if it needs to -- but it more or less uses fats as they come in. In a very real way -- you are the fat you eat. Remember a few years ago when there was a push for people to consume cereal oils like corn and safflower? Wonder why that isn't pushed too much anymore. At first cereal oils looked good -- ingestion of them correlated with a drop in serum cholesterol levels. Doctors love numbers. However some enterprising physiologist asked himself how this drop had come about. Turns out that too many polyunsaturates make the cell membranes too floppy and flexible and the body, in all its wisdom) recruits cholesterol to shore up and stiffen the membranes. Sure the serum cholesterol drops, but a closer look reveals that the liver was in overdrive pumping in out. In fact as the data came in it looked like too many polys were causing an increase in cancer. Too much omega 6 fatty acids throw things off as do too many poly-unsaturates and any trans-fats (a couple of years ago it was announced that hydrogenated fats containing trans-fats have no place in the food supply) Garbage in, garbage out. A good review of fats in Mary Enig's "Know your Fats" . (Enig is the chemist whose group at the U. of Maryland (my alma mater) did the original bench work that identified trans fats in the food supply. Also go to the www.westonaprice.org site and read up about the edible fats industry-- they are a nasty bunch (Oiling of America) and fats in general (The Skinny on Fats).

I found I got different results on pubmed depending on what I entered in the search fields -- some garnered only 47 hits and some hundreds. I often like to use known researchers in a particular field like Horrobin, Hibbeln, Stoll, etc. as well as fish, DHA, EPA, depression, etc.

Perhaps others interested in this field could fish around too?


Can you get your hands on this French review: my library doesn't have this journal.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12640327
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #248
249. Can't get at that review, either -
my institution subscribes to a bunch of online journals, but not that one. Fascinating stuff, this. I'll read it over, but leave the fat expertise to you. I do remember, let's see, Society for Epidemiologic Research meeting, in Minneapolis, so it was I think 1992 or 1993 - I was listening to a talk, sitting with a friend & Walt Willett was sitting next to us. Something came up in what the speaker was saying about better health of some sort with saturated fats in the diet, and we were looking a bit puzzled. Walt leans over and says, "Yeah, we found margarine to be a risk factor for cancer with the Nurses." So we looked at him with a yeah, right, Walt, now what are you on about look, and he says, "No really, it seems to be the trans-fatty acids." So we figured, here goes Walt off on another of his kicks, but he was right. So it goes.

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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-22-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
40. I was put on Paxil Sept 13, 2001
My Grandmother had died on the 7th. I flew out on that day. A few family members were getting really, really greedy, and her body was not cold. I, as the eldest granddaughter was (in the yet-to-be-read will)to take possession of a number of family heirlooms. Certain family members, all of whom knew about the will, were INSISTING (in private) that she had told them that certain items would be theirs.

I was an emotional basket case, and acquiesced to some. I flew back on a Sept 11 red eye - with red eyes, and an emotional basket case. I was just landing when the first plane hit - as I drove home from the airport I heard about the 1st plane hitting.

Sorry to be cliche, but I thought 'Damn bad pilot'

By the time I made it home and turned on the TV the second plane had hit. It actually made me forget my Grandmother's death for a few minutes. Within 5 hours or so I was an emotional basket case. Made an appt. w/ my internist.

He decided I NEEDED PAXIL!!!! Big Time!! Absolutely necessary!!!! He gave me almost 2 mo's worth free!! WHOO HOO!!! I had never had problems with depression before (aside from a 2 week funk over the death of an 18 year old cat).


I took it for 6 weeks. I went in after 10 or so days, telling him that I was panicked, hyperventilating, and unable to cope with day to day life. He told me that the med's take a 4-6 weeks to take effect. I trusted.

5+ weeks later I came to the conclusion that the stuff was killing my brain. Friends were telling me that they had never seen me so disturbed.......and the shaking!!!! I was staying up until 4-5am in a paranoid delusional world. I called the doctor, he told me to come in. Went in - he decides to reduce the dose - BUT KEEP ME ON IT!!!!!

At that point I stopped taking it - there may have been withdrawals, but they were nothing compared to the effect of the drug.

I have never been quite the Same, and still have sleeping problems. I changed doctors. I am now getting very close to my pre-poisoned state!!

These Drugs are Evil (IMHO)

Just my tale.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #40
54. No they are not evil.
They have helpled millions of people.

However, no one should take these drugs from a PCP. They do not have the time to do a thorough assessment to figure out just what is going on and what sort of treatment is truly necessary. Further, the medication is one part of a treatment regimen. It should never be given without corresponding therapy.

Further, if you showed up to your internist with those symptoms and got that reaction, I would highly recommend that get another doctor. That is simply irresponsible practice on the part of the physician. The drug is a tool. It is not the problem. The physician was the problem in this case.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #40
70. The drugs are not meant for situational depression...
while I am sure they affected you in a negative way, it does not appear - according to your post - that you were severely, chemically depressed to begin with. You probably should never have been put on it in the first place.

It is possible that you had more of just an anxiety disorder, and never should have been medicated with an SSRI to begin with.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
166. Totally agreed.
You're right. Those drugs are horrible, with a few exceptions. Wellbutrin has seemed to be a fairly consistently subtle but effective one- the rest (in particular Prozac and Paxil) are downright evil, just like you said. No one should ever take them.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
50. I just read this to my psychiatrist wife, and her reaction was...
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 09:19 AM by Stuckinthebush
"Let's see...people who suffer from severe depression should always be monitored for the possibility of suicide. I suspect this is a situation where you have correlation not causation."

Of course, she's a shrink....not a real doctor :D (I'll pay for that one).





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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
56. bipolar kids
bipolar disorder in kids is frequently missed. it looks very different in kids, nothing like what is in the dsm. when antidepressant are given without antipsychotics and/or mood stabilizers, the bipolar can explode. no child or adolescent should be given these drugs without a throrough family history, looking for both mood disorders and substance abuse, which is frequently a self medicated mental illness.
this happened to my kid. she ended up in the hospital. it is very common. (especially, unfortunately, when they are prescribed by pcp)
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
57. It happened to me.
I'm quite sure of it.

Only it was with St.John's Wort. Not a drug mentioned with the warning labels. (It no doubt does not get studied as much).

I would take it somewhat casually for mild depression(I had also tried Prozac - it was OK up to a point but I didn't like it as well - felt too uninspired). Then several bad things happened in my life at once. But it was when I started taking St.John's Wort more regularly that I felt suicidal - and I consequently felt better - still depressed but not suicidal when I stopped taking it.

Someone could try to convince me that it was a coincidence - and I would never believe them.

The main deal is - that it has to be something to be aware of. I don't thing everyone needs to be monitored every month. But people just need to notice and if they need help getting off of it - to do that.

Also - I think the danger comes in in with kids/teens - if the parents are not aware and just assume that any medication the kid is taking is a positive thing and they encourage them to take the medication no matter what....

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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
59. I told everyone about these drugs....
Doctors are nothing more than whores for the pharmaceutical companies these days. Why is it that these people, who have taken an oath, which includes, for one thing, the promise "to do no harm," cannot take the few minutes that it takes to get online and do a little research into some of the crap that they are handing out?

Prozac, Celexa, Wellbutrin, Paxil........all of these drugs belong to a class of compounds called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Even assuming that these doctors are ignorant about the fact that some people do NOT need to increase their levels of serotonin, ie., those with manic-depressive disorders, alcoholics, anxiety disorders, or even certain groups of people carrying the cystic fibrosis gene (who have, inherently, more extracellular serotonin), it doesn't take a rocket scientist, or even a doctor, to realize that the body is going to take steps to homeostasis, in response to these drugs, to normalize the amount of serotonin that is being utilized. And these compensatory mechanisms are not at all good for the patient--such as decreasing the number of receptors for serotonin, which causes the patient to have to increase the amount of the drug he uses, just to feel normal.

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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. I find sweeping generalities of the sort you indulge in
in your first paragraph counter-productive, bigoted, and highly offensive. If you wish to contribute to the discussion, fine, but do so in a reasoned, thoughtful fashion, please.
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colonel odis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. i don't believe we need someone to dictate the style or tone
someone may take in a post. th1onein made valid points.

as someone who's been seeing a therapist, as well as a psychiatrist, for a little over 3 years, i understand completely some of the stories being told here.

i've been taking effexor (450mg/day) and would love to get off of it. if i cut back at all, within hours i feel worse than i did -- complete with morbid thoughts -- before i ever went on it.

every person is different. every person's chemistry is different. therefore, every person's reaction to what they take will be different. i think a large issue in this is the drug industry's absolute lack of integrity or morals. i've also lost respect for the medical community that's prescribing so many of these at the drop of a hat.

what's even worse, imho, is that if the fda under the bush administration asks the drug companies to include the warning, god only knows how widespread and bad the problem is.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #62
81. I find ignorance and a desire to stay ignorant offensive......
The fact is that the majority of doctors get out of medical school and seek to make money, and that's it. They are wooed and bought off by the pharmaceutical companies, and they sell their souls and their patients' well-being to the priorities of these companies.

I study biochemistry, and my son died of cystic fibrosis. As a person who has been involved, in the most intimate way, in the battleground between good medicine and pharmaceutical companies, I have to say that I have not met ONE doctor who takes the time to do simple, basic research into the drugs that he/she prescribes for their patients. And, I have met many, MANY doctors.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. You do?
Then why do you lie about doctors the way you do? Sorry, but you are ridiculously wrong. It's clear that you don't know many physicians personally, or you would not make such a bogus, sweeping condemnation.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. Alright, where and when do you study biochemistry?
You're giving out advice on a life-threatening disease. In primary care, there are maybe five conditions that a doc sees all the time. Let's see; upper respiratory infections, allergies, lower back problems, various digestive things, and depression. Far and away the highest mortality rate occurs with depression, and it's one of the toughest to diagnose. So, what are your qualifications for giving advice and desparaging physicians with regard to a life-threatening illness?

I have done more than meet doctors, I have been involved in training them for over 15 years. Your depiction of them all as money-grubbers is grossly overblown and inaccurate. I think you are taking an advocacy position, and there is a lot of difference between advocacy and science. I could with equal accuracy depict advocacy groups as people who are out to make a quick dirty buck of scientific ignorance.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. I think you are taking this a little too personally
I do research for a non-profit cystic fibrosis group. I'm not out to make a buck on anything, period. In the years that I've been doing this, I've seen a lot of dirty shit take place between doctors and pharmaceutical companies, none of it geared towards what is best for the patient.

So, maybe you are one of the few medical practicioners that really care about the welfare of their patients. Let me ask you something: have you ever prescribed HRT for menopause?
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. I'm an epidemiologist, not a prescriber type person....
and you evaded my question. I am taking it personally because I see a lot of good, altruistic physicians trying their best to practice in often tough conditions. You're generalizing unfairly from a limited experience, expecting a practicing clinician to do things that really fall into a pharmacist's realm, and showing a lack of awareness both of science and clinical medicine practice. And further, you're misrepresenting your scientific credentials in an effort to bolster your credibility. There are more than a few docs who care about the welfare of their patients - I see them every day, I teach them, and you could see them too if you didn't go in with such a bias.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #90
95. No, I'm not evading your question....but this is not the forum for this
type of argument. And I am not going to continue it here, either. My email is: [email protected], if you want to discuss this further.

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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #81
148. Too bad you haven't met mine.
:hi: Or the one I had before him....or the one before that...and before that...and my son's pediatrician, my obstetrician...my gastroenterologist. :shrug:

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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Well put Th1onein
I've watched the unfolding horror of people i know who have kids,
quickly have the kid diagnosed with add, and of course the
parents themselves are using paxil or whatever...i've distanced myself from many people because of this, for much like a (illegal) drug addict they will not only deny the side effects of these
medications, they will most assuredly TOUT them as a godsend.

Frank Zappa warned many times concerning the constant use of
"mind altering" drugs, of course he was typically referring to illicit substances, and i would imagine now the guy would be having a freaking seizure if he saw what was taking place under the guise of
"medicine," for it is these drugs and any mood altering substance which creates such complacency in the individual that we end up with the society we have now-

Soma anyone? (yes, i know its a muscle relaxant but its still creepy as hell)
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bmbmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. Oh by the way
this "whore" wants to point out that Wellbutrin(buproprion HCl) is an aminoketone, chemically unrelated to the SSRI family. Even assuming that you are NOT a total idiot, you should do a little research before posting inflammatory comments about me and Albert Schweitzer.
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colonel odis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. just wondering what kind of person includes him/herself
in the same sentence with albert schweitzer.

but at least you helped reaffirm my skepticism of doctors today. for that, thanks.

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Oh brother.
Sounds like it's time to get a life. The poster's point was clear. No need to drag this into the gutter.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #69
80. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #80
251. adios
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. You might want to review your pharmacology and physiology before...
you tell anyone else about these medications.

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
68.  While I appreciate the sentiments of everyone that says these things work
I have personally seen people declaring they work while all the while demonstrating bahavior indicative of the fact that they don't.

I don't believe all sufferers should be generalized in the same category...people suffer from depression for a variety of reasons and people come to develope personality disorders for a variety of reasons...some organic some not.

The only point I would make to those that compare SSRI's to drugs for diabetes and hypertension is this:

We don't treat diabetes without a glucose tolerance test.
We don't treat hypertension without testing your blood pressure.

Why are 30 million people taking medications treating a chemical in the body for which there is no measurement?

The drugs MAY work for SOME people ...but there are a GREAT many people in need of BEHAVIORAL modifications (just like diabetics and hypertensives ALSO modify behavior in order to be successful in their treatment) and I see MANY people taking drugs and doing NOTHING to address the behavior modification necessary to insure the drug's efficacy.

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Any good practitioner knows that psychopharm is just one part of treatment
It should never be given alone, without therapy, and smart consumers will not accept medication without therapy and without a thorough psychiatric evaluation by a psychiatrist or psychiatric nurse practitioner. PCPs simply do not have the time to weigh all the factors that must be weighed, nevermind to teach their patients about these medications and their side effects.

As for your comparison regarding different treatments, the examples you give are true. However, we medicate many other things without such testing, including pain and arthritis medications. The risk and benefits must be weighed consistently, especially regarding treatments that come to the fore without a specific corresponding level of efficacy. However, it does not seem ethical to keep those treatments in a back room, if they do prove to offer positive results to most patients.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. Arthritis is measured by radiograph, MRI or blood tests
While I agree pain is NOT measured one sees similar abuses as with SSRI's in over prescribing.

I completely agree with your first paragraph and do not demonize these drugs when properly monitored by competent, ethical specialists.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Those are not exact tests.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 02:34 PM by HuckleB
And, if insurance paid for it, we could measure a great deal in regard to depression and other mental illnesses via MRI and other brain scans. However, mental health is not given a priority in the cost allowance for such diagnostic tools.

Further, one sees abuse in pain meds in underprescribing, as well. And the same argument can be made for psychopharm medication. The human element still plays a huge role in medicine, and it will do so for a long time. That means it will not be a perfect science. Knowing that would go a long way toward keeping the overexcited screams of abuse aimed at more appropriate subjects, IMHO.

And those were but two examples.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
75. Perhaps this means HMO's, etc., will support better care?
That is, more than just a prescription? More office visits paid for, inpatient stays on occasion?

I know how dangerous depression is--it's killed several friends. Obviously, some people are helped by drugs--just not the same drugs. The drugs might not work forever, or side-effects might necessitate a change. And going on a drug, getting off, or switching can be dangerous.

So, while drugs can be useful in treating depression, they aren't the whole answer. Does this ruling mean that more treatment will be allowed for those whose health care is "rationed" by an HMO or a stingy insurance company? After all, the government recommended it!

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. We can hope.
But I'm afraid that the only thing that will come out of this is that the pharmaceutical companies have more protection against lawsuits.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. Agree, Huck -
this bit with warning labels is mostly about cover-your-ass from lawsuits.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #84
127. No question about it
but one can at least hope that this "action" has at least some effect on prescribing habits- particularly among primary care physicians (most of whom probably have no business passing out SSRI's in the first place).

Unfortunately, as we all know, many PCP's prescribing habits are driven by the pharmaceutical industry's aggressive marketing (including all the "free" samples). And, if the (count 'em) THREE commercials- 2 for Zoloft and 1 for Paxil that I saw in the span of 15 minutes during lunch today, the industry has no intention of backing off.
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neverborn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
88. Hey, I'm really concerned now -- Re: SSRIs/Bi-polar
My good friend is on Zoloft, and she's identified as bi-polar and depressive with suicidal tendancies.

Should she not be on this? I want to let her know if I can...
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #88
96. This is not a place to get medical advice. And I wouldn't presume
to tell your friend what to do even if I could talk with her directly. What you might suggest is that she talk with her doc about these matters. If she's responding to treatment though, it might be best to let well enough alone. Note that it's very difficult to tell whether the suicidal tendencies are due to the drug, or to stopping the drug. Or simply of course due to the underlying disease. These are not drugs to play around with on a whim once you've started taking them.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. You bet they aren't!
Why is that? Because the plain and simple fact is that once you start taking an SSRI, you increase serotonin in the extracellular space, and the body responds by decreasing the amount of serotonin receptors it makes, so you have to have ever increasing serotonin to lock into what few receptors you have left. And, on and on and on.

They are creating addicts.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #100
107. I wouldn't go so far as to say addicts
but one thing is for certain- one should NEVER stop taking any SSRI or even welbutrin- "cold turkey." You have to be weaned off of them- and this is where the "suicide side effect" often appears.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #100
110. And finally you run out of serotonin receptors altogether,
and then there's really nothing you can do, is there? Are you sure you've got your biochemistry right?
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #100
112. Again, you have not studied the pharm and physiology of this.
Why do you pretend to know when you don't? That's incredibly disingenuous and dangerous.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. Once again, let's not resort to ad hominem attacks....
You have no idea what I have studied. Period. In fact, as a CF heterozygote, I HAVE studied these drugs and their effect on neurophysiology. I have done this BECAUSE I am one of those who is affected negatively by these drugs. My mother, as well, had to be hospitalized when the doctors gave her an SSRI to "help" her with her depression.

Please don't presume to know my level of education, or what I have studied. This isn't about me. It's about these compounds. Untested, except on the US population.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. I can presume, in this case.
Your posts make it very clear. I am not making an ad hominem attack. You have not presented the actual pharm and phys of SSRIs and the brain. You have offered nothing remotely accurate. So please don't say I am making an ad hominem attack, when I am simply stating the facts.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #117
125. We have no idea what you've studied because you haven't said,
and it is relevant because you're presenting yourself as an authority and giving opinion - witness the poster below worried about a friend with bipolar.

I studied chemistry and ecology as an undergrad, worked in public health as a tuberculosis control officer then as a field survey epidemiologist in an infantile gastroenteritis study, where we discovered a new e. coli cytotoxin. I took an MSPH and PhD from the biggest and one of the best departments of epidemiology in the country. Since then I have worked in cancer research, cardiovascular disease, neurodegenerative diseases, asthma, and birth defects. I have published numbers of papers in those areas and received funding for research several times from the National Institutes of Health as well as foundations. I have also spent nearly 15 years teaching research methods courses to grad students, nursing students and med students as well as residents, and acted as faculty advisor to an average of 12 med students per year. What about yourself?
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #125
173. Google the name, my friend, and answer your own question.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #173
176. Deleted message
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #176
182. Like I said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist....
To figure out these drugs are dangerous. Unfortunately, many of the studies regarding Prozac and it's dangers were funded by Ely Lilly, the makers of Prozac. You can guess what their conclusions are. However, as early as 1997, Robert Bourguignon, of Belgium, sent out a questionnaire to fellow physicians, asking them about the side effects of this drug (which is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor); the results of this questionnaire were detailed in a Jan. 18, 1997 letter to Lancet. These doctors reported several adverse events associated with the use of Prozac, including: convulsions, suicide, aggression, and alcohol abus. In the same year, citing results gleaned from a computerized literature search of Medline, an article published in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry reported that discontinuation of Prozac resulted in a plethora of symptoms including "dizziness, insomnia, fatigue, anxiety/agitation...." and that these symptoms may be improved by "restarting an antidepressant with similar pharmocologic profile."

Sounds like the perfect recipe for addiction, doesn't it?

SSRIs act on the enzyme system that dissolves serotonin, so that more serotonin stays in the synapses. Elevated serotonin levels are associating with psychosis, schizophrenia, mood disorders, organic brain disease, and autism. And the downregulation of the metabolism of serotonin, which leads to high levels of this neurotransmitter (exactly the proposed mechanism of SSRIs) is associated with depression, anxiety, suicide, aggression, and substance abuse, to name a few. All of this, and THERE IS NO RESEARCH THAT PROVES that low levels of serotonin cause depression.

And, remember: the year now is 2004. All of this information came out before 1997.

Moreoever, remember Fen-Phen and Redux? These are drugs that are strong serotonin boosters and which have been taken off of the market. Why? Because they cause severe heart, lung, and brain damage. The fact is that serotonin affects more than just the brain. You know it; I know it; and Ely Lilly knows it, too. Just as they know that these drugs are addictive and cause damage to multiple other systems.

What I've published or haven't published; what I've studied or haven't studied (and make no mistake about it: I am proud to study CF, and I don't do it to make a buck), isn't the issue here. It doesn't take a doctorate in physics to figure out that a falling object will hit the ground when you drop it. And neither you, nor Ely Lilly is going to convince me, or anyone else with a brain, that these drugs are safe when the damage that they do is so obvious.



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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #182
187. Your qualifications are at issue.
You're not here to learn; you here to promote an advocacy position. From what I can tell, that's fine if you're talking CF. However, a problem with being an autodidact is that you can really know a lot about some things while having some major gaps in other places. From the way you talk about biochemistry, some of those gaps are obvious. Therefore, questioning and discussing is okay; advocacy and advising people to stay away from a particular med is not okay & I will call you on it.

So we're absolutely clear, I am not saying at all that the ssri's have no problems, that they're ideal drugs, that this brouhaha about suicide is wrong. It may well be right - but the evidence presented simply does not meet scientific standards of proof. And speaking of that, the tactic of saying that any evidence presented is automatically worthless because it was funded by the wrong source, ie a pharmacy company, is a logical fallacy - 'poisoning the well' - and not a strong argument. Not to say pharmacy companies don't pull that sort of thing; they do, I'm not naive nor an industry apologist. But to say anything they do is worthless is also a naive and ignorant position.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #187
192. No, they are not.
A fact is a fact is a fact. Period. To dispute what I am saying simply because you don't like my "qualifications" is to ignore all data supporting my allegations. And there is an abundance of it. Anecdotal evidence has it's place in science, whether you like it or not. It is the "red flag" that tells us that something is wrong. That is exactly why the FDA requires physicians to report these kinds of negative "events." And, in this case, it is telling us that something is deadly wrong.

It is people who speak of evidence not meeting "standards of scientific proof" that keep this poison on the market. Who is going to fund the studies that show that these drugs cause suicidal and aggressive behavior? Ely Lilly? I think not.

And, even if we were to assume that they would begin to think about the human cost of their cash cow "wonder drug," what about the ethical considerations of such a study? Should we pick an experimental group to get the drug and count how many have committed suicide while on it, or when they come off of it?

How many must die or suffer from addiction and withdrawal from these drugs before your standard is met?

I say, once again: Science is in the service of the sufferers; NOT vice versa.
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #192
195. Would you prefer it if prescribers used tricyclic medications for MDD? --
Or perhaps just let the depression go? If so, should we ignore the growing mass of evidence that shows that untreated depression causes brain damage over the years?
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #195
202. You are missing the point........
Or, perhaps, bullshitting. This is not an "either/or" issue. It is about a class of drugs that do more damage than good, okay?

Have you ever heard of the phrase, embodied in the Hippocratic oath: DO NO HARM?

Science screwed up, okay? It screwed up in thinking that an increase in serotonin was going to alleviate depression, and it was worth the risk of whatever else systems serotonin has an effect on, including the pulmonary and cardiac systems, to affect this change. And it forgot about addiction; it didn't bother to test for receptors for serotonin; and it didn't bother to test for the long term effect on these receptors.

And, so it is, too, that science screwed up in jumping to the conclusion that estrogen replacement therapy was the panacea for menopause. The powers that be, in that realm, have a hard time admitting it. Even though they know that this hormone, when it is dominant over other hormones, such as progesterone, causes immune diseases in women of menopausal age.

Is it going to take the patent running out on their drugs to admit these things? Let's hope not.

Let me tell you something:

There was a time in this country when doctors were considered Gods. You couldn't ask them anything; their's was an egotism that was beyond understanding. They controlled your very life.

That time has ended. The reign of those gods has fucking ended.

The information is out there; with the advent of the internet, you now only have to access it. They no longer control it. And, I will tell you, from personal experience, that control is all they mostly did with the information that was given, via the scientists that you and I, so graciously, with our taxpayers' money, allowed them to glean.

I am not saying that this is easy; to wrest control of your health, from these idols of our current society. It takes time; and much effort. But who else should control your destiny, in the most intimate way, if not you, yourself?



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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #202
204. Clearly, you are missing the point --
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 04:28 PM by TopesJunkie
This class of drugs is doing far more good than harm, and you would see that if you looked beyond the tip of your nose. The other medical options in existence are far worse. No treatment is also a far worse option, leading to brain damage and worse depressions. Prior medications are far more dangerous than SSRIs, with far more side effects and no more efficacy. Science hasn't screwed up. Science offered a less-than-perfect tool for prescribers to use. That's the case throughout health care. We have no foolproof tools. We have no perfect medicines without side effects. But to begin to argue that these medications do more harm than good is to iterate complete ignorance. Millions of depressed, anxious, agoraphobic, panic disordered people have been helped by these medications. A few have died while taking them due to suicide: People that may have been misdiagnosed or that may have killed themselves without treatment, among tons of other factors that you choose to ignore. However, there is no correlation that the medication caused the suicides. So don't jump to where you cannot jump. That is simply bogus screaming without thought.

By the way, you can put yourself in the hands of bogus information found on the Internet. I know there is tons of it, but my health is too valuable to choose such a risky route.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #204
209. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #209
211. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #211
212. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #212
213. Deleted message
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #213
231. Geez, I guess we've got some new mods, eh?
let's not go nuts on the deleting, okay? i think there's some points to be made by some of the more off-the-wall arguments. Negative points, I'll grant, but still, I think folks should see that sort of thing. It's educational.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #231
234. Yeah, very odd deletions.
I don't think there was anything against the rules in those posts, and I just read them a couple hours ago. Yet, the post where she calls everyone idiots is still sitting on the board.

Bizarre.

:eyes:
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #212
220. Nice try --
I do actually know the physiology of the matter, though I've noticed that you have missed much in that area.

Anyway, I won't follow you into the gutter.

Goodbye.

-----
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #220
222. You don't have to follow me anywhere, Topes......
And why don't you explain to me what you think that I don't understand, in terms of the physiology of these drugs.

I've never met a fact I didn't like. Provide me with some, why don't you?
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #222
224. Don' worry 'bout it, Topes.
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 08:43 PM by HuckleB
The games never end with this one.

She's got a never-ending troll motor.
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #182
190. Sounds to me like you have a little slice of the information pie --
Yet, you think you can generalize to the whole pie from that slice. I do not think that is a wise course of action.

-----
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #190
194. And general practicioners have the whole pie?
Because, that's who prescribes these drugs. And many of these practicioners have never even heard of "discontinuation syndrome," during which the patient coming off of these drugs experiences aggressive and suicidal behavior. These practicioners are simply taking their pharmaceutical reps word for the safety of these compounds. And pharm reps are, for the most part, not licensed to practice medicine.
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #194
196. Where do you get the evidence for these claims --
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 02:22 PM by TopesJunkie
I don't know any PCP who doesn't know about discontinuation syndrome, and I certainly don't know any PCP who takes the word of a drug rep for much of anything. Where do you run into these people?

That said, I do believe that the health care system must change. I do believe that psychotropic medications should not be prescribed without a long, thorough psychiatric evaluation, which PCPs do not have the time to do. I would love to change the system. I hope the FDA action leads to change. However, I do not want to see millions of people lose their very viable treatments to mass hysteria.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #196
203. I agree with you.....in some instances....
I think that these compounds, commonly referred to as "SSRI"s, should be used as "emergency" treatments. Not long term.

As to my evidence for these claims, have you bothered to do a simple internet search on this topic? All of the information is out there; and from very good sources.

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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #203
205. Show me --
Don't tell me to do a "search." Show me legitimate research that backs up your claims about doctors. If you can't do that, then back away from your claims.

Do you know anything about MDD, by the way? Emergency? Do you know the side-effects of tricyclics? Do you know the side-effects of not offering treatment? You are offering a half-baked, one-sided bashing session without considering what would happen to millions of people if you got your wish. That's sick, if you ask me.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #205
207. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #207
210. Deleted message
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #210
218. And to add a bit of advice for the serotonin skeptics, do that
search on "acute trytophan depletion" and look what happens when you change serotonin levels quickly. And in a randomized, double-blind fashion. I've posted this a coupla times & I don't think any of you anti-ssri advocates have taken me up on it.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #210
223. Sigh. I despair. I am talking to idiots, apparently.........either that
or people who have made up their minds beyond all evidence to the contrary.

I give up. Do as you will. You will do it, anyway, no matter what I say.

Go ahead: let someone else be the captain of your ship. It's your life, and no one else will have to bear the burden of the bad decisions, but you.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #88
99. I'm not a physician, so I can't say.......
But I do wonder whatever happened to good old lithium for bipolar disorder.

In fact, most people are unaware that they are being used as human guinea pigs for the pharmaceutical companies here in the US.

Let's take Tagamet (used to treat ulcers), for instance. Tagamet used to be dispensed by prescription only, now, it is an over-the-drug. What happened here? Did American patients suddenly gain the knowledge required to self-administer this drug? Nope. Tagamet's patent ran out, at which point, every other pharmaceutical company can compete to make it at a lower price.

And what about Claritin (for allergies)? Why, all of a sudden, are there so many commercials for Clarinex on TV? Does Clarinex work better than Claritin? Nope. But Claritin's patent is due to run out soon, so the pharm companies want their allergy-sufferers to be switched to the patent-protected Clarinex, before that happens.

And, why are physicians now prescribing Nexium, instead of Prilosec? Is Nexium any better at blocking the proton pumps that increase acid in the stomach? Nope. But Prilosec's patent is about to expire.

If it ain't broke, why fix it? Money, that's why. Who foots the bill? YOU. Who acts as the guinea pig for these new drugs? YOU.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #99
104. "Good old lithium" has a pretty rough side-effects profile,
and it can be something less than effective for a lot of people. Given that, though, it is still in use for bipolar mood disorder.

Tagamet is no longer used to treat ulcers because ulcers are now treated with antibiotics. Part of the reason for keeping it as a prescription is so docs can supervise ulcer patients. Given it's no longer useful for that, the company took it off scrip and promote it as an antiacid, treatment for heartburn so they can make more bucks off it. You were aware of this, weren't you?

Yes, the drug companies promote a lot of unnecessary drugs to make a buck. Do therefore all drugs not work and/or have nasty side-effects? That might be overstating the case.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #104
119. Tagamet was used long before and after American physicians
finally gave in to the scientific fact that (duh!) tetracycline and bismuth cured ulcers in pigs, so these compounds could also be used in humans for the same condition. It's mighty coicidential, in my opinion, that these same physicians (aided, no doubt, by their respective pharmaceutical reps) figured that out at just about the same time that Tagamet ran out of it's patent.

I'm not saying that ALL drugs don't work or have nasty side effects. What I AM saying is that when you have a drug(s) that does what it is supposed to do, and does it well, and it has used with little or no side effects in the general population, WHY do you push another drug, having the same efficacy (or sometimes less), but that might have negative side effects? Case in point: Prilosec vs. Nexium.

Science should be in service of the patients, not the almighty dollar.
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bmbmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #99
109. They are available otc
because safety and efficacy have been established.
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SeattleDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. there is some truth to what the other poster said though
It's a mixed bag.

New meds start out as prescriptions precisely because our experience with them is limited. If you have a rare side effect, say one that occurs in 1 in a thousand patients, you aren't going to notice it in clinical trials, which may enroll just a few hundred patients. So, when the drug is prescription, we are better able to track adverse events, for one thing (although certainly tracking is not perfect!)

When enough evidence of safety is accumulated, a drug can be considered for OTC status. A lot goes into those decisions that I can't try to explain here.

That said, a company's support and/or filing for OTC status does have something to do with patent protection and insurance. When on patent, the company wants the drug as a prescription item because insurance will reimburse them for their outrageously priced monopolistic product. When the patent expires, they manipulate the chemical entity a la Clarinex and Nexium and put the original drug OTC. This continues a revenue stream from insurance companies who pay for the prescription drug (but not the OTC drug) while opening up the market to general consumers as well. Many people unfortunately will pay a premium for a brand name product rather than a generic, so they'll by OTC claritin instead of the generic loratadine. It is absolutely true that the makers of Claritin fought against OTC status until they had Clarinex ready to market. Remember, insurance companies don't cover OTC drugs so they don't want to enter that arena unless they have their second generation me-too drug ready to go.
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
101. I take Effexor!
They ain't takin' it me!!! They're gonna have DRAG me outta the house to take it from me!!! Come and get it FDA!! I dare ya! I double dog dare ya!!! Over my dead BODY!!! Come on!! TRY AND TAKE IT!!!!!


It really has done wonders for me, ya know.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
105. Search the words "acute tryptophan depletion"
those of you who'd like to know more about the underlying biochemistry. Use google if you like; pubmed if you can handle the scientific jargon. I already shared this with NothingShocksMeAnymore up above, but think it deserves a bit wider audience. It's a very interesting field.
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Paranoid_Portlander Donating Member (823 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
106. Ultram, 5-HTP, tyrosine, phenylalanine.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 05:44 PM by Paranoid_Portlander
These are alternatives to the controversial drugs and act differently. Side effects are usually milder, but you do have to watch out for elevated blood pressure with phenylalanine (PA) and tyrosine. PA is available in the L form (LPA) and D form (DPA). The D form helps preserve endorphins, and everyone likes endorphins (except drug warriors).These are all available over-the-counter except Ultram, which requires a doctor's scrip. Ultram is recognized as a pain reliever, not yet officially recognized as an antidepressant. Talk with your doctor before trying any of these substances, especially if you are already on antidepressants.
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
108. Glaxxo NOT Welcome


the sooner control pharms like glaxo and pfizer are shut down,the better for humanity imo- if anyone believes that 20 million people in the u.s. have actual physical-chemical depression problems, i've got a bridge in arizona for you- my guess is that perhaps one percent of the 20 million have real neural disorders, i believe the real culprit stems from these damn commercials which convince people that they do have some kind of problem, despicable really-

I believe this drug hysteria also ties in with recent rises in obesity- one great NATURAL way to beat stress and prevent depression is rigorous exercise, a simple and quite effective way to boost your bodies own enodorphin levels, but americans have by and large become...rather large, fat that is. A lapse into depression is cured by a pint of ben and jerrys, but this "cure" lasts about as long as it takes to eat said pint, after that your still screwed.

Better living thru chemistry? I think not-

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. Seven percent of the population?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 05:55 PM by HuckleB
You think that's 20 times more than actually have this diagnosis? Interesting. Do you feel the same way about cancer, diabetes, arthritis, glaucoma, .... ?

You clearly have no idea what it's like to have true major depression. Your Ben and Jerry's therapy doesn't work on that.

Anyway, major depression is not the only diagnosis that SSRI's are used to treat. They have proven efficacy in a variety of anxiety disorders, including GAD, PTSD and panic disorder. They are also used, usually in combination with a mood stabilizer to treat the depression side of bipolar disorder. So the 20 million you note are not being treated for one disorder, but many.
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #111
123. yes, i think the majority of cases are b.s.
and i think the majority of snake oil hucksters are selling you a bridge in arizona-

You're comparing diseases of the mind with actual physical ailments such as cancer, etc.? there is no comparison and you should be ashamed to try to draw one-

Anxiety disorders, panic disorders, attention deficit disorders...these are all quite popular money makers now, they the hit the doctors' charts with a bullet-
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #123
126. I guess ignorance is bliss.
So the brain isn't subject to the physiological distresses that the rest of the body is subject to?

Umm. Sorry, but biology, physiology, anatomy, chemistry... they're all just as much at play in the brain as they are elsewhere in nature.

Perhaps you ought to be ashamed to have ignored that.

I find it incredibly insensitive for you to belittle those who suffer from very real biochemical maladies as "diseases of the mind" that are somehow not comparable to diseases such as cancer.

That's simply old-fashioned ignorance. Pure and simple.
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. I think you've been effectively assimilated, but...
...for clarification, i never said all diagnosed diseases of the mind are bogus, just the majority.

I do believe there are many people out there with legitimate chemical imbalances etc, which certainly need professional help.
Help from a physician? I would suggest that as the last step, as there are methods to bring one back to balance without drugs and
the majority of physicians do not want to help you, they want to finance their next yachting adventure.

So you will get that prescription for paxil or whatever the new flavor of the month is, because the truth of the matter is, they just dont give a damn about you or anyone else.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #128
132. Thanks for the laugh.
I guess actually knowing what one is talking about equals "assimilation" in your mind. You've bought into sweeping generalizations that don't match reality, but that's not assimilation, according to you.

Very interesting.
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #132
136. Unfortunately this is no laughing matter-
The chem corps have made their first major sweep with great success, and soon they will even rival that of their "black market" competition.

I wonder if, in 50 years from now, a kid will wake up crying from a bad dream? How sad indeed.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. Clearly it is to you.
You clearly have done very little actual research into this matter. Thus, you have not taken it seriously at all. Yet you are all up in arms with your half-baked theories. Sorry, but if I don't laugh, I'd have to cry when I come across folks like you.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #128
137. I see no scientific justification for your stance -
where in the world are you pulling these numbers and statements from? Are you familiar with any population surveys of mental diseases? Or have you looked at the results of a search on "acute tryptophan depletion"? Google that, & tell me again the majority of depression is bogus. There's a lot more solid physiologic evidence than you're aware of.
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #137
143. I never claimed scientific justification, just common sense-
We now live in a world where every "problem" is neatly diagnosed, and comes complete with a cure...if you have the money that is-

Depression is real, everyone has it or gets it, but the majority of those do NOT need to go to a freaking physician to get a prescription...this is a fact, you cannot ignore this fact for it is
sober, concise reality based upon common sense and keen observation, not by listening to someone with an agenda-

Once again and for the last time, i would agree there are those who suffer from such acute physiological disturbance that artificial treatment is the only solution, but i stress this one more time...only as a *last resort.*
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #143
160. And once again, where are you getting the information that
shows people with depression should seek artificial treatment only as a last resort? Common sense doesn't cut it, mate. Common sense is anecdotal, seat-of-your pants stuff that has led to enormous errors in medicine. Fortunately we're getting away from that - but it wasn't so long ago common sense told us cholera was caused by miasmas.

Your hostility towards medical practice is irrational and foolish. You're welcome to it, as long as you make it clear that this is your opinion, based upon no evidence whatsoever. Don't know if you noticed, but I agree with your position that exercise is crucial in preventing and treating this illness - I posted to that effect some time back. And that is data-based; I could find any number of studies showing that. But - as good as exercise might be, for someone who's having even mild depression, getting out there and exercising can be very difficult. It's even tough for non-depressed people.

Finally, being broad-brush painted as co-opted, and having an agenda, really gets my goat. And I won't let that sort of crap go by without a debunking.
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #160
168. Thats fine
when you debunk something, let me know-
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. I was hoping for a reply like yours
You don't know what you are talking about. But you live you life and let us on meds live ours. My life would not be livable if it wasn't for the meds I take.

At least I am willing to say that I need help. You on the other hand wouldn't ask for help if you needed it I think. I was where you are at. I was placed in a home where I could be watched so I would not kill myself. They told me about the drug therapy that could help me live a normal life but at the time I thought like you.

I am so glad I got wise.
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #114
124. There is some agreement there-
Yes, i could off myself at sometime in the future, i will not deny that...but here is the difference-

If or when i do off myself (although this scenario is highly unlikely)
at least i will know that its *me* doing it. However my life does turn out, by the gods i will have control over it to the bitter end
or joyous end as the case may be.

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
115. FYI -- Who Develops Severe or Fatal Adverse Drug Reactions to SSRIs?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 06:38 PM by HuckleB
Who Develops Severe or Fatal Adverse Drug Reactions to Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors?
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2001/April/Severe.asp
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
116. FYI 2--Suicide Rates in Clinical Trials of SSRIs...Analysis of FDA Reports
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 06:31 PM by HuckleB
Suicide Rates in Clinical Trials of SSRIs, Other Antidepressants, and Placebo: Analysis of FDA Reports
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/160/4/790
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #116
129. Query- if the results reflected poorly on SSRI's
would they have been published- or supressed? I think the evidence is pretty clear on that point, so I'm not overly impressed by these studies (particularly since the FDA barred its own scientist from publicly presenting his finding that several leading antidepressants may increase the risk of suicidal behaviors among children.

http://www.dbsalliance.org/Forums/mbtopic.asp?FORUM_ID=12&TOPIC_ID=362037&F_POST_DATE=1/1/1900&pg=1
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #129
133. Your link doesn't work.
It leads to a starter page for a forum.

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #133
144. sorry about that
the original Chron article "FDA Bars report linking antidepressants to suicide" is out of date- so I can't link to the entire piece or post it here because of copyright considerations, though it is posted on that particular website's advocacy forums-
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
120. MP Paul Flynn's statement to Parliament re: Paxil
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 06:25 PM by depakote_kid
I came across this while looking for the various British studies that demonstrated a significant increase in suicidal behavior among participants taking Paxil. Note: In the UK Paxil is marketed under the name Seroxat.


Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. Will Members please leave the Chamber as quickly and quietly as possible?

Paul Flynn: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

It is likely that the legacy of the misery created by what has happened with antidepressants will be at least as severe as what happened with tranquilisers.

The pharmaceutical industry has achieved miracles in disease control and elimination in the past century. It is not my intention to attack the science of that industry, but it is my intention to attack the spin, the marketing and the propaganda, all aimed at maximising profits, and the ineffective regulatory control that has failed to protect the public. GlaxoSmithKline, the manufacturer of Seroxat, has been exposed as duplicitous, profit-driven and irresponsible over the 14 years that the drug has been available. It prizes its profits above the health of its customers.

Where there should have been scientific objectivity there has been voodoo medicine; patients who have sought care have had their trust abused. Seroxat has turned mild stress in to suicidal despair, and in many cases a passing anxiety has become a lifelong addiction, leading to self-harm, suicide and even murder. Those who have long questioned the safety and efficacy of Seroxat were ridiculed and undermined by the pharmaceutical giant GlaxoSmithKline.

That company is the villain in those tragedies, but happily there are heroes—those who fought to expose the truth about the dangers, addictiveness and ineffectiveness of Seroxat. The heroes include Dr. David Healy, professor of psychiatry at the university of Wales, Bangor, the "Panorama" programme, which produced two splendid accounts about the effects of the drug, Sarah Boseley of the The Guardian, the charity Mind, one of the few charities that takes no money from the pharmaceutical industry—a significant point in this case—The Citizen, a local Gloucester newspaper which is to be congratulated on conducting a campaign with national results, and my hon. Friends the Members for Gloucester (Mr. Dhanda), for Dundee, East (Mr. Luke) and for Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mr. Lazarowicz) who have also been involved.

Seroxat is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. The drug appeared only in the 1990s and took over from the tricyclic antidepressants that had been available since the 1940s. I believe that need for the drug is based on a great myth: the idea that we can go through our entire life in a state of continuous euphoria and that if we suffer a moment of discomfort, pain, boredom, grief or anxiety we should be classified as ill and in need of medicine. If any of our loved ones feel similar unhappiness, we are supposed to feel guilty unless we provide them with a pill. If we are sadder today than we were yesterday, there must be something wrong with us.

Humankind has progressed through many millennia without using antidepressants, yet the myth has been perpetrated and we are conditioned to believe it.

I wrote to GlaxoSmithKline more than a week ago to tell the company what I planned to say in the debate and asked for its comments. It has not had the courtesy to reply although I have received a number of letters from it over the last four years. The company has expressed the view that antidepressants should be taken by half the female population of the United Kingdom and a third of the male population; it wants to see 25 million people on antidepressant drugs. That is certainly not the number of people who suffer from the type of depression that needs medical intervention—serious, pathological, clinical depression. I do not want to minimise the effects of that dangerous illness, which can lead to self-loathing or self-destruction and certainly requires the attention of the medical profession.

We have been conditioned to believe that we need those drugs, but there are far better alternatives. For example, counselling does not involve chemical drugs; it is over-prescribed at present, but if people are looking for a way out of the hell of clinical depression, they would be well advised to study the work of Dr. Dorothy Rowe, who has written a splendid book about clinical depression, "Depression: the Way Out of Your Prison". She gives vivid descriptions of people's reaction to deep depression—their feelings of hopelessness, of being locked inside a room and that no one can help them. She offers practical ways of dealing with depression through self-knowledge, meditation and exercise, which is very much in line with current Government thinking. Having spent the better part of my life ignoring exercise, I am a late convert to its joys. After discovering the great pleasure of endorphin-releasing exercise, I can go along with what is said about it.

The effect of Seroxat is not to free people from the prison of depression, but to create a new prison wall around them; that wall is all-encompassing and often encloses them in a prison of addiction. At the heart of the debate is ensuring that the Government do two things: the benefits of new medical discoveries should be enjoyed by all who need them, but the public should be guarded against the serious side-effects that such drugs can often cause.

We do not want to return to the terrible scandals of the past such as tranquillisers, thalidomide, Eraldin, Opren and others that have resulted in wasted lives. The charge against GlaxoSmithKline could not be graver: it has deliberately suppressed information on the danger of Seroxat and its lack of utility.

Two years ago, GlaxoSmithKline wrote me a letter that contains very little that is truthful apart from the date. We know that its spokesmen made preposterous claims on "Panorama", and the letter states:

"The safety and efficacy profiles of Seroxat has been confirmed through clinical trials involving thousands of individuals and the experience of tens of millions of patients over the 10 years the medicine has been available."

The letter does not mention the number of reports that GlaxoSmithKline has disregarded, ignored or, as happened recently, actually suppressed.

The issue is not new, but we learned about the worst case very recently. Studies have been conducted that prove that Seroxat is no more effective than a placebo, and that in many cases it is less effective. Such claims have been around for a long time, but in spite of that Seroxat was increasingly prescribed, and it overtook Prozac as the No. 1 antidepressant in the UK, with four million prescriptions a year at one time, and now that figure has greatly increased.

It is difficult to get precise figures about how many prescriptions are issued and how many people are on Seroxat, but, as with many things, we are following the United States line. We know that there are three million children on antidepressants in Canada and that there are 10 million children on antidepressants in the United States. Dr. Healy says

"There is probably no area of medicine in which the academic literature is so at odds with raw data."

After many denials, a particular report, headed "Confidential. For internal use only", has been revealed. It was prepared not a couple of weeks ago, although that is when it was published, but in October 1998. It refers to studies conducted in 1993 and 1996 of children and adolescents who were given courses of either Seroxat or a placebo. In one trial, there was no beneficial difference in the outcome between the placebo and Seroxat; in the other, the placebo produced superior results, which was not unexpected.

The studies demonstrated that there is no beneficial effect in treating adolescents with Seroxat.

One difference was noticed in children: suicidal behaviour was 1.5 to 3.2 times higher on Seroxat than on a placebo. It was not until 2003 that the body responsible for regulating medicine, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, issued guidance to doctors that Seroxat should not be prescribed to people under 18.

However, a parliamentary answer that I have received in the last half an hour says that the Government do not intend to change the rules on prescribing unlicensed drugs to children. The Government seem to say that, if a drug works for adults, it should work for children. If so, it must also be true that, if there are increased suicidal tendencies among children, there is a similar effect on adults. Dr. David Healy reports that GlaxoSmithKline had evidence that approximately one in every 60 adults on Seroxat made a suicide attempt, while the figure for those on the placebo was one in 550 adults. That is an extraordinary difference.

David Healy gave evidence to the regulatory body, when it investigated Seroxat last year, and there is a rather bizarre story to tell about what happened. About nine months before, Dr. Healy had applied for a meeting with the regulatory body. When the meeting eventually took place, he was surprised that no one questioned the evidence that he gave to the regulatory body, although he was a long-time critic. Although some agreed minutes were supposed to be prepared, they were never sent out because many of the members of that committee had financial and other interests in GlaxoSmithKline and in other selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. That is a deplorable situation.

I am sure that the Minister will say—it was said at the time—that the body is beyond suspicion and that those professional people will act in a disinterested way and reach conclusions. That may be so, but it is unlikely that the public will trust such a body, when so many of those who judge the safety of medicines have dual interests of that kind, as well as an alternative duty as a regulatory body to ensure the success of the British pharmaceutical industry. If we are to have full trust in our regulations on such matters, we need a body that has only one commitment: the safety of the public and those who take the drugs.

GlaxoSmithKline has repeatedly failed to respond to patient reports of withdrawal difficulties and refused to publish reports that demonstrated that 85 per cent. of healthy volunteers in a controlled experiment suffered from agitation, abnormal dreams and insomnia, and there was one suicide. Let me make it clear what that shows: 85 per cent. of that control group of healthy people were not suffering from depression, even mild depression, but they experienced those problems. Time and again, we hear evidence of people whose behaviour is modified tragically by Seroxat.

Last year, the Brecon coroner, Geraint Williams, wrote to the Secretary of State for Health to ask for an inquiry into the drug after one such case. The family wished people to know about that case because they hoped that some good might come from the tragedy that had engulfed them. The case involved a retired head teacher, Colin Whitfield, who took his life after he was prescribed Seroxat. His wife said in court that that was totally out of character and that she believed that his mind had been affected by the drug. The coroner said that he was profoundly disturbed by the effect that Seroxat had had on Mr. Whitfield, and he accepted expert opinion that Seroxat could induce agitation and lead to people having suicidal thoughts.

Sadly, there are many cases of that kind. The Tobin case in America has become very well known. Again, the behaviour of a man who had taken just a few tablets changed in a way that his family said was completely uncharacteristic of him. He killed the three women in his life—the three people whom he loved the most—a wife, a mother and a granddaughter. He then killed himself. That was reported in the first "Panorama" programme on the subject.

Another case, which emerged in the second programme, involved someone in this country who suffered a similar character change after taking a few tablets of Seroxat. He tried to take the lives of his wife and daughter, and he then tried to take his own life.

It is difficult to see these cases as coincidental, because they are so similar. However, we must examine them and ask ourselves why such terrible tragedies have taken place. The clinical evidence suggests that the drug must take the blame.

The defence put up by GlaxoSmithKline is that the people involved are depressed anyway and that there is a chance that their taking the drug may lead them to self-harm. When GlaxoSmithKline examines the results of the trials, it gives the credit for beneficial results to the use of Seroxat. However, when there is a bad result, that is blamed on the depression suffered by those involved. The company cannot have it both ways.

Other side effects have been reported by the volunteers who took part in one of the trials. They reported difficulty in withdrawing from the drug and one peculiar effect of this drug and no other was electric
"zaps". They reported difficulty in walking, co-ordination problems, aggression, confusion, memory difficulties and lethargy.

Yet the published account of that report never mentioned any of those things. The information was obtained because, in the court case in America, Dr. David Healy was allowed access to the files of GlaxoSmithKline, which did not include these results in its report.
That contrasts with the response received by "Panorama" following the broadcast of its first programme on Seroxat.

It received 67,000 phone calls and 1,400 e-mails, almost of all of which reported problems with side effects and difficulties of withdrawal. Among the cases reported were 16 of accomplished suicide and 47 of attempted suicide. Those responses came from just the group of people who happened to be watching BBC 1 on the Sunday evening when the programme was broadcast. A follow-up survey by Panorama and Mind of 229 people using Seroxat found that 83 per cent. experienced withdrawal symptoms. The symptoms were "intolerable" for 44 per cent. and "severe" for 32 per cent. Therefore the use of the drug did not succeed for 76 per cent.

Seroxat heads the World Health Organisation's league table of drugs from which it is difficult to withdraw; it is higher than Valium. Our Department of Health agrees, and a reply that I received from one of the Minister's colleagues last year pointed out that, in her view, Seroxat makes the symptoms of depression more severe in the early stages. That point is widely recognised.

In spite of that, GlaxoSmithKline repeatedly failed to remove the words on the side of the packet that said in unambiguous terms:

"These tablets are not addictive . . . You cannot become addicted to Seroxat".

The company changed its mind, but only in April 2003, 13 years after the problems began to emerge. In the first television programme, it was adamant that the drug was not addictive; in the second one, it blamed the patients for not understanding the warning. However, it is hard to imagine words that could be more explicit or less unambiguous. To this day, the company still gives the same advice on dependency to doctors. It argues that Seroxat does not cause dependency, but it certainly does, as the World Health Organisation and our Government agree.

The patient information leaflet that GlaxoSmithKline puts out now states that 25 per cent. of those taking Seroxat will suffer a withdrawal reaction. That is an extraordinary change when compared with what it previously said. It declared the figure to be 0.2 per cent. until 2002, but it then increased the figure to 0.7 per cent. Now it has decided, after years of misleading everyone, that the true rate for addiction is about 25 per cent.

It is disappointing that the United Kingdom regulatory authority has failed to protect patients from the profiteering of GlaxoSmithKline. Even moves by the US Food and Drug Administration to warn patients about the potential problems associated with seroxat amount to a slow reaction, and almost to a dereliction of duty. Patient complaints have been ignored by GlaxoSmithKline and by doctors, and by the regulatory body and its predecessors in this country. This is a familiar story.

One constituent wrote to me, saying that she reported a bad reaction to her doctor, who declined to report it under the existing yellow card scheme. That scheme, which was introduced after thalidomide, is ramshackle, does not work and is hopelessly ineffective. I remember receiving an answer from Gerry Malone, the then health Minister of a previous Government, in which he told me that the number of deaths arising from paracetamol in Britain were 46 in one year and 52 in another. I was astonished by that reply, because according to the coroner's report, there were between 500 and 600 deaths in each of those years. Mr. Malone was quoting the number of deaths reported through the yellow card system, but it understated the number; in fact, there were 12 times as many.

Yet we are relying on that system to guide us on adverse reactions to drugs. It is no surprise that a system that is 40 years old is working in such an inadequate way. Only a tiny fraction of the reportable adverse effects are actually reported. It is nonsense to continue to rely on that system in this way. That is why there is a huge understating of adverse reactions, suicides and addictions. When the Minister sums up, I hope that she will say that we need to look seriously at any reliance that we place on the yellow card system.

In the television programme to which I referred, Dr. David Healy said that the evidence shows that roughly one person in 60 who uses seroxat makes a suicide attempt. On the same programme, a GlaxoSmithKline representative gave a transparently dishonest account of its position. We are talking about a drug that is probably ineffective. There are few reports to suggest that it achieves markedly better results than placebos. As we know, it is addictive, and I should also point out—this is an important factor for the Government—that it is ruinously expensive. There has been a huge increase in the prescription of antidepressants, and few people who spend long spells in hospital can escape the well-meaning attentions of hospital staff, who regularly come round with their medicine trays and announce that one has been prescribed this pill and that pill.

A constituent of mine told me that when she was in hospital, she demanded to know what each of the types of pill that she was taking was. She was regularly told, "This is a painkiller", to which she replied, "Well, I'm not in pain, so I'm not taking it." On being told, "This is an anti-depressant", she said, "I'm not depressed either, so I'm not taking that." The excuse for prescribing such drugs is that one might well be in pain or become depressed later, so one must take them in anticipation of future pain or depression.

Now that we know beyond any doubt that such pills are addictive, why on earth do we continue with this approach? Why do we still measure the efficiency of hospitals not by how much pain is relieved—admittedly, that is impossible to measure—or how much depression is dealt with, but by how many pills are prescribed? That is an extremely ineffective method, and it is also extremely wasteful. One of the current problems is that although funding for the health service has gone up by 40 per cent., outcomes have increased by a much smaller percentage. One main reason for that is the extraordinary inflation of the drugs bill, which has increased at a far greater rate.

Many of the drugs that are prescribed are probably useless or damaging.

Charles Medawer, the director of the medical research group Social Audit, said many years ago—before the latest announcement—that a study at the university of California's neuropsychiatric institute found that just over 50 per cent. of patients who were given Prozac, which is a similar drug, reported an improvement in their symptoms, but that an identical proportion of patients who were given a placebo drug reported the same results. That is nothing new because it has been known for a long time that SSRIs have a poor outcome for patients, so why on earth do we continue to espouse them and support their use?

Twenty-six new SSRI drugs are under development, so they will come later. We are undertaking an extraordinary experiment with human beings on a massive scale. There are rightly complaints about the drug ecstasy because it is used recreationally. It disturbs the chemistry of the brain, and no one can say what the long-term effect of that on the mental health of those who take the drug will be. The argument is precisely the same for altering the serotonin levels of the brain in the way in which SSRIs do. No one can say what the long-term effects will be after 40, 50 or 60 years. The experiment is being carried out for the long-term interests of drug companies' profits.

I would like my hon. Friend the Minister to deal with several points. Although research is continuing, Charles Medawar says:

"I see antidepressants as the biological equivalent of thumping a TV on the top to help improve the picture"—

we know that that works, but we do not know how it works. However, in this case, we know that the drug does not work, but we still go on thumping. He said:

"My belief is that in 30 years, our grandchildren will look at the way we treated depression in the 20th century with the same disbelief as we look at the way we prescribed tranquillisers 30 or 40 years ago".

That is the position that we are in now.


When will the inquiry on selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors that ended in such confusion be re-established, and when will it report its findings? What are my hon. Friend's proposals to restore full confidence in the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, which is, strangely enough, entirely funded by the drug companies—only two countries in the world are in that position? The Public Accounts Committee was critical of the situation last year, and said that stakeholders would have a lack of trust because the agency is entirely funded by the companies—that is like getting Arthur Anderson to audit Enron.

What action does my hon. Friend propose to take to ensure that the pharmaceutical companies publish all results of their drug trials? We know that two trials took place that proved beyond doubt that the drugs had no utility and that Seroxat was useless. We also know that the results were not published, and the drug company made it clear why it was not publishing the results by saying:

"it would be commercially unacceptable to include a statement that the efficacy had not been demonstrated, as this would undermine the profile of" Seroxat.

That is an indication—a confession—that the suppression of the truth of the report has nothing to do with health or safety; it was done only for commercial considerations.

No one else is carrying out such trials on a similar scale. We give a free hand to the drug companies to carry out trials. If they do not like the results, perhaps because they are likely to reduce their profits, they suppress them and keep them secret. We must ensure that the regulatory bodies have the power to insist that the results of all trials are published. They might claim that they already have that power, and that may be the case, but the results of the trials, which finished in 1998, should be available; otherwise, there is no way of informing patients.

Will the Minister act now to at least reduce the prescription of unlicensed drugs to children? That continuing scandal has gone on for a long time. I know there are many reasons for it, but some drugs are prescribed to children which are almost certainly harmful because of a child's different metabolism. Does she have proposals to end the under-reporting of the yellow card scheme? Will she consider developing a scheme to allow testimonies from patients to be considered along with those from doctors? Under-reporting is serious, but when the patient that I mentioned tried to persuade a doctor to report her problems, the doctor refused.

Seroxat should be withdrawn from use, certainly for new prescriptions. That might cause difficulties for those who have been on it for a long time because of withdrawal symptoms. It would be cruel to take them off the drug to which they are addicted overnight, but for new patients it should be withdrawn. The evidence is there to support that. There should be an urgent review, not the relaxed leisurely review of the past two years, of Seroxat and the other SSRIs to determine their safety, the possibility of addiction and the other severe reactions that have taken place in a significant group of people, in particular those who have felt suicidal.

There has been a major failure by the regulatory authorities, especially in the light of the fact that they refused to take patients' testimonies. The new MHRA should be far more proactive in seeking adverse reaction reports and establish further ways of using direct experience of medicines in drug safety monitoring. It was shocking to discover that the MHRA and its predecessor often only looked at summaries of conclusions rather than at the conclusions themselves. All those patients who are taking drugs need better information from manufacturers and doctors on possible side effects and withdrawal effects and need advice on how to manage and support withdrawal.

There has been an immense scandal, involving many millions of people. Those patients who have gone on to Seroxat, who have sought solace and care, have been abused by the system and GlaxoSmithKline, and have been let down by us as parliamentarians and the regulatory authority.

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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #120
130. I think this guy said it for me, Huckaby.
Nuff said. If you don't get it now, you never will.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #130
134. You talking to me?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 07:00 PM by HuckleB
Yeah, let a politician speak for you with anecdotes. Actual science doesn't mean a thing.

:eyes:

Wait, I thought you had big scientific credentials. Hmm. Guess I was mistaken.

:eyes:
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #134
169. It is called let the facts speak for themselves, Huckaby.
Political speech or no political speech, the man makes a point: people who take these drugs are dying. Got that?

I am not here to discuss biochemistry with you, assuming you can even understand it. Most doctors have been so long out of that loop by the time they have practiced a few years, they are lost. Moreover, such a discussion adds nothing to the present topic, or others who are engaging in it here.

Neither am I here to defend my "big scientific credentials." Once again, if you wish to discuss this topic, I have given you my private email address. Apparently, since I have received no email from you, you just want to start a fight, and have no interest in learning anything new. Some people don't want to learn new facts, because it might confuse them.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #169
170. It's time for you to "get" a few things.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 11:51 PM by HuckleB
Without these drugs, a lot of people would have died, a lot of people would have lost their jobs, their families, their friends, their lives. But you could give a rats ass, I guess. You've got an agenda that is blind to the true balance of the evidence. You have been dishonest about what you know, acting as if you could explain how SSRIs work and how the brain works, when it's very clear that you know very little about such things, and what you do know is out of context and thus wrong. And then you hide behind a political rant built on anecdotes that can't even begin to touch on, much less understand, the causation behind what happened in order to "blame" the medications. The guy used headlines without doing his homework. There is an association, but no correlation and no causation to these deaths. Further, there is no way to know what would have happened if these folks had gone untreated. The biggest risk factor in terms of medical and therapeutic care for suicide is no treatment and undertreatment. Do you get that?

I know the biochemistry. It's clear that you do not. So don't play games with me here. You know full well that you haven't got a clue. Don't try to continue the fraud.

Sheesh.

As for talking, why not talk here? I've got nothing to hide. What are you trying to hide by going behind everyone else's back? I don't even know how you supposedly gave me your e-mail address, by the way. I don't have it. You haven't PM'd me. So what's with the games. It seems like that's your real agenda here -- to just stir things up -- and screw the facts no matter who gets hurt. Well, the line your spreading is going to hurt a lot more people than it's going to help, my friend.

If you know so much, then show it. But, thus far, you've shown the opposite. If you know so much, why would you have offered such out of context baloney when talking about SSRIs thus far? Ah, but I repeate myself. Both of us already know that you don't know much about SSRIs, brain chemistry or brain physiology.

Sorry but it's time for you to come clean. You played games, and you got caught. I'm not going to hide. I'm not going to pretend about my knowledge. And I'm going to lie about sending you an E-mail address. Why are you?

:eyes:
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #170
172. There are no games here, my friend.
And, yes, there are people who need anti-depressant drugs, but not THESE drugs.

And, pay very close attention: I don't answer to you, got that? I don't dance to your tune, and there is nothing that I have to prove to YOU.

My name is Melanie Childers. I study biochemistry. Look me up on the internet. Google my name, if you don't believe me.

And, yes, I gave you my email address: [email protected]. This is the second time I've given it to you.

The next time you reply with a personal attack, I'm reporting you.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #172
175. All you've offerered are games.
Your last post to me was a ridiculous personal attack, and now you are mad at me for responding? Give me a break.

I don't trust anything you say. Your posts have not been honest. You have not been honest. I don't trust that this is your name. And I certainly don't trust you to have my E-mail. If you find that to be a personal attack, then fine.

But it's simply the natural reaction that comes from your behavior on these boards today. It's the honest reaction to the games you have played. Especially now that I have googled the name you gave, and I can't find anything that indicates that you study biochemistry.

What program? What courses have you taken? If you're going to offer the type of half-baked, just enough information to be very dangerous, explanations of biochem that you have offered today, then you're going to have to let us know where you learned them.

I doubt I'm going to waste my time responding to you again.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #130
135. This is a guy giving a political speech before a group of
parliamentary representatives. You consider this conclusive scientific evidence?
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #135
141. The only reason I posted this
was because I thought it was a pretty good rant and because it highlights the differences in the political responses to a very valid- and pressing- scientific question between the Parliament & Congress (which is flooded with PhRMA money) and between Britian's Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHPRA) and our own Food and Drug Administration (which seems to have become another captured agency).

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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #141
161. Fair enough.
sorry, I'm getting a little jumpy.
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #120
139. Excellent article, but are you getting the feeling
that we have some Glaxo-Pfizer-kline-wellcome-etc reps posting on this thread?
hmmmm....can't say for sure really, just a feeling....
:eyes:
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #139
146. I seriously doubt that-
The several posters you may be referring to are real pro's and have my utmost respect (if not always my complete agreement) ;)
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sprockets Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #146
158. Sorry..
...i replied to your post, was actually replying to Th1onein-

Please, carry on with your professionals;^)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #146
164. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #164
167. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #167
171. Sheesh.
:eyes:
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
121. FYI 3-- Evaluation of the Adequacy of Outpatient Antidepressant Treatment
Evaluation of the Adequacy of Outpatient Antidepressant Treatment
http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/9/1233
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
122. Senator Charles Shumer's statement re: Paxil
WITH BRITAIN BANNING THE DRUG PAXIL FOR YOUTH, SCHUMER URGES FDA TO EXPEDITE STUDY OF WHETHER IT INCREASES SUICIDES AMONG KIDS

Nine British studies of the popular antidepressant show it causes depressed children to become more suicidal

Schumer also asks FDA to place hold on drugmaker's request to sell Paxil to children here

Armed with the combined results of nine British studies showing the popular antidepressant Paxil causes depressed children to become more suicidal, US Senator Charles E. Schumer today urged the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to expedite its own study – a necessary step to banning the drug's use for kids in the United States. Schumer also asked the FDA to place a hold on the drug maker GlaxoSmithKline's request to the FDA to sell Paxil for children's use pending the outcome of this study.

"Instead of helping kids overcome their depression, there is more and more evidence that Paxil makes it worse. The British government acted decisively to protect children from the risks of this drug, and the US should do the same," Schumer said.

In a letter to FDA Commissioner Mark B. McClellan, Schumer cited the move this week by the British government's Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency – the UK's version of the FDA – to ban sales of Paxil to youth. The British drug agency declared that it is clear that the benefits of using Paxil to treat depression in children do not outweigh the risks. The British government also recently forced the makers of Paxil to remove a statement on its patient label saying that the drug was not addictive. Canada and France have also moved to ban use of Paxil among children.

The nine British studies lasted as long as eight years and involved more than 1,000 patients between age of 7 and 18. The studies concluded that patients taking Paxil were 1.5 to 3.2 times more likely to have suicidal thoughts or episodes of self-harm than those taking a placebo. The findings also show that Paxil is not particularly effective in treating depression in youth. The studies do not make any conclusions about the use of Paxil by adults.

Schumer said that even though Paxil has not been approved in the United States for treating children, many doctors here prescribe the drug to them anyway. Despite the British findings, GlaxoSmithKline, the maker of Paxil and its British version Seroxat, refuses to warn American doctors against using the drug for depressed children. Instead, GlaxoSmithKline has applied for permission from the FDA to sell Paxil to children who suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder. Schumer also asked FDA Commissioner McClellan to place a hold on this application pending the results of the FDA study.

Approximately 30.4 million prescriptions for Paxil and Paxil CR were written in the United States last year, according to the group NDCHealth, which tracks prescription drug use. Paxil is part of a class of antidepressant drugs that includes Prozac and Zoloft. Many patients who have used these drugs contend that they tend to increase violence and suicidal thoughts in vulnerable populations, which the makers of the drugs have long denied.

Schumer was joined today by Lisa Van Sycklel. Four years ago, her teen-aged daughter Michelle complained of feeling sick, was mis-diagnosed with depression, and was prescribed Paxil. Mrs. Van Syckel said she quickly saw sweeping changes in her daughter, who was an honor-roll student who spoke French fluently and had no history of drug or alcohol abuse. Michelle cut herself dozens of times with knives, razors and jagged pieces of compact disc cases, even cutting the word 'die' in her abdomen. Michelle attempted suicide repeatedly and threatened to kill her mother with an ax. Eventually, another doctor diagnosed Michelle with Lyme Disease. Michelle – who turns 18 next week – stopped taking Paxil, and has returned to a relatively normal life as a high school senior.

Schumer noted that GlaxoSmithKline, the maker of Paxil, is itself a British company. "The fact that Paxil has been banned for kids in its home country tells you something. Here in the US we have to act quickly to make sure that our kids aren't made more suicidal by a drug that's supposed to do exactly the opposite."

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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #122
199. OMG
I thought what happened to my relative was bad (being misdiagnosed as depressed and palmed off with Prozac when she had severe cardiovascular disease).

Schumer was joined today by Lisa Van Sycklel. Four years ago, her teen-aged daughter Michelle complained of feeling sick, was mis-diagnosed with depression, and was prescribed Paxil. Mrs. Van Syckel said she quickly saw sweeping changes in her daughter, who was an honor-roll student who spoke French fluently and had no history of drug or alcohol abuse. Michelle cut herself dozens of times with knives, razors and jagged pieces of compact disc cases, even cutting the word 'die' in her abdomen. Michelle attempted suicide repeatedly and threatened to kill her mother with an ax. Eventually, another doctor diagnosed Michelle with Lyme Disease. Michelle – who turns 18 next week – stopped taking Paxil, and has returned to a relatively normal life as a high school senior.

This just flabbergasts me. Why wouldn't any doctor in the U.S. Northeast keep in the mind the possibility of Lyme Disease before putting a young girl on a mind-altering drug. What an awful story. I realize these drugs do help many, but we need to find a way to require the health insurance companies to provide monitoring to people when starting on these drugs to make sure they are correctly diagnosed, not just handed out like candy, and also to be sure that they don't have a violent reaction.


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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #199
201. If the doc hasn't eliminated all possible physical maladies... --
that doc has no business prescribing psychotropics.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
131. FYI 4-Major Depressive Disorder in Adolescence: Review of Recent Tx Lit
Major Depressive Disorder in Adolescence: A Brief Review of the Recent Treatment Literature
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/october/milin.asp
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
138. David Healy, MD's letter to the FDA - the British analysis summarized
The enclosed document arose from a direct invitation from Dr. Robert Temple, Director of the Office of Drug Evaluation I, of the Food and Drug Administrion, in the course of a meeting organised at FDA on February 3rd 2004. The meeting was focussed primarily on the issue of suicidality in children taking SSRIs. But this issue does not stand alone. It would appear that we have reached a crisis point in both the regulation of psychotropic drugs and perhaps all drugs and a crisis point in psychiatry and perhaps all of medicine. It will become clear from the material laid out here that most if not all of the supposedly scientific literature on giving SSRIs to children may be ghost-written. It also seems clear that FDA do not know basic things about the use of these drugs such as how many people are on the drugs.

This paper offers a model that for the first time gives an estimate as to likely numbers of people who have taken Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft since their launch in the US. From this it is possible to derive an estimate of the numbers of people who have committed suicide over and above the numbers who would have committed suicide had SSRI drugs never been marketed. This points to a figure of 21,000 excess suicides. It seems quite likely that when this model is in due course fed real figures from actually dead people, that this estimated figure will appear conservative.

One way out of the problem is outlined in this paper, namely to adopt a system that encourages consumer reporting of adverse events. The current crisis makes it clear that consumer reports are often considerably more accurate than physician reports.

The material laid out here gives rise to a series of questions for FDA:


In the light of Traci Johnson's death on February 7th 2004, will FDA obtain Pfizer's entire folder on the 1982 Hindmarch study in which healthy volunteers were given Zoloft, and make a statement as to whether data of this kind can indicate whether SSRIs can induce suicidality?

Will FDA undertake to obtain all of Glaxo SmithKline's trials in children and make available an analysis of all the data in regard to suicidality and aggressive behavior?

In the light of the details below, will FDA comment on their characterization of the British approach to the question of the risk benefit ratio for SSRIs in pediatric populations as superficial?

Will FDA confirm that companies have inappropriately coded suicidal acts under the heading of placebo in trials of Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil in adults, and will the agency give a true set of figures for the suicidal acts on both active treatment and placebo in registration trials for adults?

Given that Paxil/Seroxat shows the greatest number of withdrawal syndrome reports to WHO for any psychotropic drug ever, and given that the full dimensions of this problem remain unknown, with the company changing its estimates as to the frequency and severity of the problem at regular intervals, will FDA outline exactly how a randomized withdrawal design could demonstrate these drugs work for either children or adults?

Given the abundance of evidence that physicians commonly increase the dose of SSRIs when faced with a patient not doing well on treatment, particularly during the early phases of treatment, what advice will FDA offer to doctors to minimize the risk of this happening inappropriately?

What will FDA do to remedy the incredible fact that Americans track the fate of parcels through the post 100 times more accurately than they track the death of children and adults on these drugs?

Specifically, in the light of the failures of physicians to report adverse events, will FDA consider an initiative begun by the mental health charity, MIND (UK) to foster consumer reporting of drug induced adverse events?

Finally, I would like to thank the Alliance for Human Research Protection for the opportunity to post this document on the AHRP website, so that these questions can be made public as part of a process of holding FDA to account for what seems increasingly likely to be one of the greatest drug disasters in the agency's history.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


February 19th, 2004

Peter J. Pitts
Associate Commissioner for External Relations
Food and Drug Administration
Parklawn Building
5630 Fisher's Lane
Rockville MD 20857
United States of America

Dear Mr Pitts

This open letter follows a meeting organized with you by Jennifer Tierney on February 3rd 2004, the day after the PDAC hearing on the use of antidepressants for children. At this meeting, Dr Temple invited a submission of the details of studies referred to in the course of a presentation of the issues. This letter, which will probably be posted on the MIND UK website, linked to Richard Brooks presence at the February 3rd meeting, seeks to do just this.

Healthy volunteers and Non-Depressed Patients

A great number of the patient testimonies in the course of the Feb 2nd hearing were from individuals who became suicidal on an SSRI when their underlying disorder was Lyme Disease, migraine or a condition such as social phobia.

This had also been the case in the 1991 hearings, when it was framed by Dr Temple as follows (transcript page 266):


The discussion we heard earlier showed that people who commit suicide are highly likely to have a diagnosis of depression, which means that somebody identified them as in a high-risk category. But there were still a significant number of people who committed suicide without having that sort of diagnosis and I guess I would like some advice or discussion on who those people were.

I ask for the following reason. The anecdotes that one hears that are most evocative to me anyway are not the ones where people who have a 20-year history of suicidal ideation and then finally do it - that is not too surprising - it is where they assert that there has never been anything in their minds like that before and yet now they have suddenly become excessively concerned with suicide and may even do it.

Despite his eloquent statement in 1991, when the question came up on February 2nd and 3rd of the relative contribution of the disease and the treatment, Dr Temple appeared to be unable to tease out the contributions from these two sources. In the 1991 hearings, he had put it that FDA was faced with a problem comparable to deciding if an anti-angina drug could cause angina.

But in fact the antidepressant field is built on the universal belief that at least one drug with antidepressant properties, reserpine, causes suicide. This belief hinges on the fact that all the recorded suicides on reserpine happened in normal individuals who were taking this drug as an anti-hypertensive. It was in the context of reserpine use that clinicians first began to describe an activation syndrome of the type that the 2004 PDAC pediatric psychopharmacology meeting indicated that FDA should warn parents and doctors about.

In the SSRI trials of healthy volunteers, this issue reaches perhaps its greatest definition. Such phase 1 studies were conducted by companies on their drugs during the 1980s. One of the most illuminating of these studies involving Zoloft was conducted by Hindmarch et al in Britain in 1982.

At a deposition in Miller v Pfizer, counsel for Pfizer, Malcolm Wheeler, said that this study was sent to FDA and other regulators. Mr Wheeler asked whether I had forwarded details of a healthy volunteer study, involving Zoloft, in which two volunteers had become suicidal, that had been undertaken by my group in North Wales to the regulators.

On April 6th 2000, I wrote to MHRA and FDA reporting the data from the North Wales Zoloft healthy volunteer study and asking whether comparable data from any company study had been reported to FDA/MHRA. FDA never acknowledge receipt of my letter (faxed to Dr Laughren).

My correspondence with MHRA is on the socialaudit.org website. In the course of this it became clear that MHRA at least initially did not have access to and had no awareness of the Hindmarch study and its significance. Subsequently the MHRA appeared to have operated on the basis of a four-page summary of the study prepared for them by Pfizer.

Anyone familiar with the conduct of Phase 1 studies will know, particularly when things go wrong, that the paperwork can amount to several hundred pages between the data pages, diaries of healthy volunteers, and reports prepared by company representatives on problems encountered in the course of the trial. If these details were made public in this case I believe that it would be clear that the induction of agitation, or an activation syndrome, that can include suicidality and homicidality was a recognized class effect of SSRI medication in the early 1980s.

It may be that "activation" was rationalized in the 1980s as occurring in "normal brains", whereas the drugs would ultimately be given to people who were depressed. But the testimony at both the 1991 and 2004 FDA hearings was of such effects developing in people who were not depressed and SSRIs are now commonly given to people who are minimally, if at all, depressed.

In the course of the February 3rd meeting Dr Temple conceded that it is well recognized that SSRIs can cause agitation, but he then went on to claim that the link between agitation and suicidality had not been demonstrated. DSM-IV however clearly links akathisia to suicide and akathisia in clinical trials of both healthy volunteers and patients is commonly coded under the heading of agitation, when not coded as emotional lability.

From a safety point of view, this issue is more appropriately turned on its head. It is clear that the companies have not attempted to characterize the nature of this agitation, so that for all FDA know every single healthy volunteer who has become agitated on SSRIs may also have become suicidal. These issues have not been explored, or if explored the details have not been recorded. However, in the case of the Hindmarch study, I would think many reviewers accessing the data in its entirety would conclude that the agitation could include suicidality/ aggression.

In addition to Zoloft trials in which there has been a dose dependent induction of agitation in healthy volunteers (Saletu et al 1986), there have for instance been Paxil/Seroxat healthy volunteer trials in which every volunteer dropped out largely for neuropsychiatric reasons. The explanations offered by FDA reviewers for this - namely that these trials were being conducted in medical students who were likely to be more sensitive to treatment side effects than others, or that trials were being conducted by investigators new to the business - might be amusing in another context.

The question of suicide in normals has come to the fore with news that a 19-year old girl, Traci Johnson, in one of Lilly's healthy volunteer trials of duloxetine committed suicide on February 7th 2004. At least one further volunteer in the Paxil/Seroxat program of trials in the 1980s committed suicide. There may have been others. From FDA's point of view are these and all the other testimonies presented at the February 2nd hearings simply anecdotal deaths?

CMAt Document, October 1998:
This document, sent to the BBC following a series of BBC programs on Seroxat/Paxil, was left with FDA on February 3rd (See Appendix 1).

The Central Medical Affairs team (CMAt) was a division within SmithKline Beecham, which helped manage issues across SmithKline's portfolio of drugs, such as withdrawal, weight gain on treatment, or difficulties with sleep etc. The emphasis was generally on either refuting the claims being made by critics or other companies or putting the claims in context - thus all antidepressants cause weight gain or may cause dependence, we're no worse than others etc.

As of 1992, SmithKline and other companies were asked by FDA, as part of the approval process of their drug for adults, to conduct studies of their drugs on children, as these drugs would be used off-label and it was therefore important to know whether there were any safety issues.

CMAt were faced with the results of a trial, Protocol 329, which was run from 1993 through to late 95/early 96. This was the biggest, and best trial of any SSRI undertaken in children. Its results were conclusive. Seroxat/Paxil in general didn't work. The results in terms of hazards were also conclusive; Seroxat/Paxil had a statistically significant excess of suicidal acts compared to comparators - 5 suicidal acts from 93 children on Seroxat/Paxil compared to none from 89 children on placebo and 1 from 184 children on either imipramine or placebo. Furthermore roughly 10% of the children had psychiatric side effects on Seroxat/Paxil, which is particularly significant against a background of failure to demonstrate that the drug worked.

These results from Protocol 329 gave rise to the dilemmas CMAt deal with in this document. One option was to publish only the positive results from the study. The study was in fact published in 2001 - 5 years later - as Keller MD, Ryan ND, Strober M, Klein RG, Kutcher SP, Birmaher B, Emslie G, Wagner K et al. Efficacy of paroxetine in the treatment of adolescent major depression: a randomized, controlled trial. J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry 2001 40: 762-772. The authorship line of this paper included many of the most distinguished figures in US psychiatry. The paper concluded that Paxil/Seroxat given to children was safe, effective and well-tolerated.

In the published version of 329, suicidality vanishes under a carpet of emotional lability. While this is a legitimate side effect coding term, few readers of this paper, academic or lay, will have realized what lay behind this term as it appeared in the paper. Similarly in this and other Seroxat/Paxil pediatric studies aggressive events disappear under the heading of hostility, a term that covers homicidal acts, homicidal ideation and aggressive events.

CMAt's recommendation was not to send the data to the regulators, as FDA will have to advise that the label state that Paxil/Seroxat in trials has not been shown to work for minors, as not including this would encourage off-label use.

The issue of suicidality was not raised in the document, perhaps because SmithKline was confident it could conceal this problem under terms like emotional lability - see below.

At that point in time the overwhelming commercial imperative for SmithKline referred to in this document may well have been their adult market. In the UK there were at this stage roughly 500,000 adults on the drug each year and perhaps 8-10,000 children/teenagers. In sales terms children were insignificant.

In the US, at this time there were c 3 million people annually starting Paxil, with a further 3 million taking it chronically - see below. Something like 100,000 children started treatment annually on Zoloft and on Prozac and on Paxil/Seroxat - a relatively small proportion of the total. The number of children may have been growing fast however, following front page promotions of teenage depression in Newsweek in 2002, and the publication of the Keller et al (329) article in 2001, which had a considerable impact on clinicians. Work by Zito and others suggests that a significant proportion of this childhood group in both the US and the UK were preschoolers, in some cases as young as 1 year old.

The CMAt document makes it clear that another protocol, 377, was even more comprehensively negative than 329. There were no plans to publish 377. Dr Laughren's presentation at the PDAC hearing referred to some children having more than one suicidal act; was that a problem affecting this protocol? There must also be a concern in a protocol conducted in South American and South Africa back in the mid-1990s that a number of children may have been lost to follow-up making the issue of whether they actually committed suicide or not unknowable; did this affect this protocol?

The company has not revealed any details about study 511 cited in the CMAt document or study 716, and it appears from statements by Drs Temple and Katz immediately after the Feb 2nd meeting that FDA have not seen either of these studies

The Post CMAt Evolution of Events

As put forward by the FDA at the PDAC hearings on February 2nd, the data on suicidal acts in these Glaxo SmithKline trials became clearer following a request by FDA to the company to clarify the events that lay behind the term emotional lability. This was in October 2002.

At the same time, study 329 featured in the first Panorama program on Paxil/Seroxat. The Panorama programs intersected with Glaxo-SmithKline's later application to the MHRA to seek a license for Paxil/Seroxat for minors for social phobia and OCD in the UK. This application, as I understand it, led MHRA to request the data from Glaxo SmithKline's trials in pediatric depression. This data came in a form that clarified what emotional lability meant, leading MHRA to issue a first warning. FDA apparently had not received the data at that point, over 6 months after asking for it.

However, an even fuller sequence of events is that FDA officials, S Galson and J Alexrod, met with Messrs Faber and Murgatroyd in early October 2002, who suggested that FDA should investigate Glaxo SmithKline's use of the term emotional lability in their clinical trial programs. Emotional lability has been listed as a "frequent" adverse event for Paxil/Seroxat ever since the original label for the drug was approved in late 1992. It was only after this meeting that FDA asked the company to clarify the meaning of the term emotional lability.

An Analysis of Suicidality in SSRI Pediatric Trials
This sequence of events led me, when visiting Glaxo-SmithKline's archives in Philadelphia in the course of In Re Paxil litigation, to look at indices of withdrawal from Paxil/Seroxat trials in children, as a warning letter to doctors in the UK from GSK in June 2003 had indicated that during the withdrawal phase of treatment children were at increased risk of becoming suicidal.

I reviewed protocols 329, 377, 701, 453, 658, 704, on which FDA have based their assessments of this drug, as well as protocols 715 and 716, assessing among other things the narrative summaries on all patients where these were present as well as details of adverse events such as investigator's judgments as to the relatedness of these events to drug intake and the relationship between the time of any dose change and the adverse event.

On the basis of this review, as well as comparable reviews of other data from adult trials, and combined with statements in the published literature, it is possible to make the following points about the data sent to FDA. These points, I believe, justify the approach taken by MHRA towards the data, namely that it is not worth worrying too much about getting the "signal" from these trials fixed as accurately as possible as the methodologies are so poor that retrospective tinkering of the type currently proposed by FDA does not seem warranted.

First, the narrative summaries that FDA propose to send to the Columbia psychiatric group for blind review of suicidal content are not blindly constructed. In these trials, there would appear to be a systematic bias on the part of the clinical investigators to deny the role of active drug in the causation of problems; which may in fact be supplemented by a tendency to blame placebo for problems with suicidality where these occur in association with each other. Against this background, the non-blind construction of these summaries along with the many psychosocial events that narrative summaries in this domain typically include will commonly give enough doubt to enable a re-categorization of suicidal acts to suicidal gestures or other categorizations.

Second, narrative summaries in general are typically only present for the final suicidal episode or adverse event that leads to discontinuation from a study, but in SSRI trials some children have had more than one suicidal episode. Against a background of investigator reluctance to credit suicidality to the active drug, it is highly likely that the majority of unrecorded suicidal episodes/acts will have occurred in the active treatment group rather than on placebo. In other words, the true picture as regards the number of suicidal acts may be considerably worse than is currently represented in the data.

Third, FDA appear to have ignored the issue of any relationship between dose change and suicidal events, even though the letter from Glaxo SmithKline to healthcare professionals in the UK now states clearly that dose lowering of Paxil/Seroxat may lead to suicidality.

Fourth, it seems clear from conversations with Drs. Temple and Katz that there is data FDA have not seen Glaxo SmithKline's protocols 511 and 716, for instance. These can be expected to yield a further number of narrative summaries, as can other studies such as 715.

Finally, many observers with clinical trial experience will guess that it is highly likely that a number of children who dropped out of these pediatric studies which were organized in South America, South Africa and elsewhere will have been lost to follow-up, so that FDA statements that no children enrolled in these trials committed suicide may well be in error.

I have analyzed the data from pediatric trials for suicidality and hostility using Paxil/Seroxat protocols 329, 377, 453, 676, 701, 704 and 716, supplemented by data from GSK's Canadian website, FDA medical reviews of Prozac trials for depression and OCD, published data on Zoloft/Lustral as well as an expert report prepared for Pfizer in 1997, and one of two studies on Cipramil taken from the MHRA website. A second study gives a more favorable picture for Cipramil, but I did not become aware of this study until after the analysis was finished. The results from that study would not substantially affect the results outlined here.

This analysis does not include data on venlafaxine, mirtazapine, nefazodone or buproprion. Wyeth has independently indicated that venlafaxine should not be used in children because it causes suicidality and hostility. Nefazodone has been removed for adults from European, Canadian and Australian markets.

I have broken down the studies into a group of depressed and a group of anxious studies, which involve children being treated for obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) or social phobia. Because I am subject to confidentiality orders, the data cannot be broken down by individual trials.

From a pool of 931 depressed patients taking the above SSRIs versus 811 depressed patients taking placebo, there were 52 suicidal acts on SSRI versus 18 on placebo. This is a 5.6% rate versus a 2.2% rate or a relative risk of 2.51. The data was analysed using a Mantel Haenszel procedure. The default procedure here gives a point estimate of the common odds ratio of 2.51, (95% C.I., 1.46, 4.34, p = 0.000899).

In a pool of 638 anxious patients taking SSRIs versus 562 anxious patients taking placebo, there were 10 suicidal acts in the SSRI group versus 1 in the placebo group, a 1.6% rate versus a 0.18% rate. When the data was analysed using a Mantel Haenszel procedure, the point estimate for the common odds ratio 11.31 (95% C.I. 1.34, 95.64, p = 0.0156).

This data is consistent with independent contributions from both the illness and the treatment. Depression carries with it a greater risk of suicidal acts than do the anxiety disorders, but in the case of the anxiety disorders the risk from treatment is no less than in the case of depression.

When these data sets are combined in 1569 patients put on SSRIs there were 62 episodes of suicidality versus 19 episodes in 1373 patients put on placebo. This is a 4% rate in the SSRI group versus a 1.4% rate in the placebo group, or a relative risk of 2.9 times greater on SSRIs. Using a Mantel-Haenszel procedure, the point estimate for the common odds ratio is 2.91 (95% C.I. 1.73, 4.91, p = 0.000041). These figures parallel the figures from adult trials submitted to the FDA as part of the license applications for recent antidepressants.

In analyzing the adult data, I started from FDA medical reviews of recently licensed antidepressants for adults. The critical methodological point in these adult studies is that it is now apparent that Lilly when submitting their data on Prozac to FDA filed as placebo suicides and suicidal acts, acts that had not happened on placebo, but had happened during the run-in phase of the trial, or that had happened months after the clinical trial was over (See Appendix 2). Despite FDA recognition that these procedures are inappropriate, Glaxo SmithKline and Pfizer have also filed under the heading of placebo suicidal acts that did not happen in the randomized phase of their respective trials (See Appendices 3 & 4).

Once this is taken into account and the figures adjusted accordingly (see Table 1), the results for SSRIs versus placebo using an exact Mantel-Haenszel procedure, with a one-tailed test for significance, the odds ratio of a suicide on these new antidepressants as a group compared to placebo is 4.40 (95% Confidence Interval is 1.32 - infinity; p = 0.0125). The odds ratio for a suicidal act on these antidepressants compared to placebo is 2.39 (95% Confidence Interval 1.655 - infinity; p < 0.0001). The odds ratio for a completed suicide on an SSRI antidepressant (including venlafaxine) compared to placebo is 2.46 (95% Confidence Interval 0.707 - infinity; p = 0.16), with an odds ratio for a suicidal act on SSRIs compared to placebo of 2.22 (95% Confidence Interval 1.47 - infinity; p < 0.001). These data have been the subject of two peer review publications at this point.

There is a striking overlap between the results in trials from adults and pediatric trials. While the rate of suicidal acts is higher in pediatric trials of depression, the relationship between active treatment and placebo is the same in both adult and pediatric groups. It should also be noted that the suicidality issue in these pediatric studies is not a matter affecting the 6-12 year old age group, showing a decline thereafter through the teenage years that could be extrapolated into adulthood. On the contrary, as Glaxo SmithKline make clear, the issue affects teenagers much more than preteens.

Finally, Glaxo SmithKline's website also contains data on acts of hostility from 4 different protocols. I have been able to review the narrative summaries and data from these and one further protocol. These protocols combined yield a total of 524 patients on Paxil/Seroxat versus 526 on plabebo, with 31 hostile episodes on Paxil/Seroxat versus 2 on placebo. Using a Fisher exact test for count data, this gives a point estimate of the common odds ratio of 15.54 (95% C.I. 3.92, 134.91, p = 0.000001).

These results are in line with the analyses of the data conducted by Andrew Mosholder of the FDA and by the MHRA, but excludes a number of drugs these authors included. This analysis represents a much purer set of SSRI drugs, and more data on SSRI drugs than has been available to other reviewers.

Crisis in the scientific literature
One of the key points about this issue is the crisis it points to in the scientific literature. All of the articles on randomized trials on Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil/Seroxat and Efexor, whether in full publication or in abstract form, describes these drugs universally as safe, effective and well-tolerated. This is despite the fact that it is now clear that in the opinion of FDA, and MHRA reviewers and others that in 13 or 15 depression trials the drugs were not effective, and not safe.

Furthermore it is clear that in many instances these drugs may not be well-tolerated in that 10% of children have psychiatric side-effects on Paxil/Seroxat, in study 329, and in the combined Zoloft depression trials 9% of children drop out for adverse events. In other Zoloft trials (Alderman et al) the rate of suicidality on the Zoloft was 9% in depressed children. The published article on this latter study reports on adverse events that occurred at a 10% rate or more and hence it fails to mention that there was any issue with suicidality in these children. A further article on Zoloft by Ambrosini et al, which reports on a 5.7% rate of suicidality on Zoloft, says that "Sertraline is effective, safe and well-tolerated".

There is probably no other area of medicine in which the academic literature is so at odds with the raw data. A possible explanation is that this literature has had a significant ghostwriting input, a possibility that the ACNP Task Force Report, published 10 days before the FDA hearing and widely seen as a pre-emptive strike at FDA, does nothing to dispel. The Task Force reported SSRIs to be effective, safe and well-tolerated, but the authors claimed that they might be mistaken in that they had not seen the raw data. The authors of the Task Force Report, however, include Emslie, Wagner and Ryan who are authors on almost all of the randomized trials on SSRIs, in addition to study 329. On what basis can they claim not to have seen the raw data?

Symbolically perhaps, the ACNP Report states it had medical writing input and for a considerable period of time following publication, this report was not available from ACNP offices. Those who wished to get the document were referred to GYMR, a public relations company in Washington, whose medical writers "know how to take the language of science and medicine and transform it into the more understandable language of health".

The CMAt document shows what may be involved. The authors of this document state that "positive data from study 329 will be published in abstract form and a full manuscript will be progressed". Science depends on access to, or a fair representation of, all of the data. Portraying positive only results as science, in other settings, has been called fraud.

While it is not FDA's brief to regulate the academic literature, the possibilities of a close to fraudulent representation of data and of extensive ghostwriting does set up an argument that these apparently scientific articles are in fact infomercials rather than the real thing. If these articles are essentially advertisements, it is much less clear that FDA can throw their hands up and plead an inability to do anything about the production of such materials, when such materials have almost certainly in the case of study 329 led to a significant increase in off-label use of Seroxat/Paxil, while the company behind this article stalled on handing over data to FDA that had been generated in the first instance following an FDA request to have such data for safety purposes.

This is a matter with financial as well as safety implications. Emslie and Wagner are also authors on the Texas Medication Algorithm Project (TMAP), recently reported on in detail in the New York Times. The TMAP guidelines regarding the treatment of children endorse the use of SSRIs as safe, effective and well tolerated. In this case, this guideline leads directly following legislative recommendation to children in public care being given SSRIs over any other treatment that may be appropriate, at clear risk it would seem to these children and a clear cost to the public purse. These guidelines have been adopted by a number of states including Pennsylvania, California, Colorado, Nevada, Illinois, Kentucky, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, South Carolina, Maryland, Missouri, and Washington D.C., so that a very large number of children and medication dollars are involved.

The Adult Market

CMAt's target was "to effectively manage the dissemination of these data in order to minimize any potential negative commercial impact." The most reasonable guess as to what this means would seem to be that GSK were concerned about the effect any perception of lack of efficacy might have for sales in their far more lucrative adult market.

This raises the question of how many people have been taking Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft since launch. One of the extraordinary features of the current crisis is that neither FDA nor the pharmaceutical companies, nor regulators elsewhere know how many people in the USA, the UK or elsewhere have had Prozac, Paxil/Seroxat or Zoloft since they were launched. No-one knows how many people are on these drugs for 1, 3 or 5 years or more.

The question of how long patients may be taking these drugs needs to be interpreted against a background of the best epidemiological evidence indicating that depressive disorders last on average for 12 to 16 weeks. While some patients taking these drugs for longer may be taking them for prevention purposes, a further possibility has to be that a significant number of people are now physically dependent on treatment.

The number of patients is important for a further reason, which is that if there is a risk factor from suicide on these drugs then the numbers of people who have taken the drugs will determine the number of people who may ultimately have suffered from treatment.

In October 2001, Graham Aldred's wife, Rhona, was anxious and was prescribed Paxil/Seroxat by her GP. In the following week Rhona Aldred suffered a progression of mental side effects from this drug of increasing severity, which retrospectively appear to be the classic features of SSRI induced agitation. Her husband, assuming that her doctor would have done the best for her, and in the absence of any warnings, encouraged her to persevere with the treatment. On the 11th day of treatment, November 8th 2001, she committed suicide. This was a woman with no prior history of nervous problems. Her medical records at the inquest did not record either her death or any link between her death and SSRI intake.

Her husband later became aware that the extent of the problems being caused by these drugs could not be quantified as no-one in the UK knew how many people had been taking Seroxat/Paxil or any other SSRI. Graham Aldred's background in systems engineering, logic design and diagnostic analysis, led him to produce a model (IMR - see Appendix 5), which gives the best figures available for how many people have been taking SSRIs in the US and the UK.

Data for this purpose came from three places. First, data from the Department of Health in the UK as to the physical amounts and numbers of prescriptions of Prozac, Seroxat/Paxil and Lustral/Zoloft since their launch in 1989, 1991 and 1992 respectively. Second, data for the US came from IMS Health.

A third data source was from the Drug Safety Research Unit (DSRU) in Southampton, a prescription event monitoring service. DSRU tracks the effects of drugs new to the market during the early months of a drug's life. In the case of the SSRI drugs, this exercise was carried out for Prozac, Faverin/Luvox, Paxil/Seroxat, Lustral/Zoloft, giving a total of 50,540 patients, whose profiles illustrate how many patients typically drop out of treatment after a one, two, three, four, five or six months etc. DSRU studies also give the number of deaths, including deaths by suicide. This profile is confirmed by a good deal of other research in the field.

Using this profile of drop out from treatment, it becomes possible to convert the amount of drugs sold and number of prescriptions issued into the numbers of people actually taking a drug or starting a drug in any one year.

This leads to the following annual figures for millions of Americans taking Prozac (Figure 1). If we extrapolate to 2003, over 28 million people have started Prozac since its launch in 1988.

Graphics available here.

The annual figures for Paxil extrapolated to 2003 (Figure 2) show over 21 million Americans have started Paxil since its launch in 1992.

The annual figures for Zoloft extrapolated to 2003 (Figure 3) show over 24 million Americans have started Zoloft this since its launch in 1992.

In total, there have been over 75 million treatment starts on Prozac, Paxil/Seroxat and Zoloft since these drugs launched in the US. Taking into account the fact that some patients will have had two or three of these three drugs, or one of these drugs on more than one occasion, a reasonable estimate of the numbers of patients exposed to one of these three major SSRIs may be as high as 50 million Americans. To this must be added figures for the numbers of people who have independently taken the SSRIs Celexa, Efexor, and Lexapro, as well as Serzone, Remeron and Wellbutrin.

The IMR model also gives figures for the numbers of people taking these drugs for a year or more. Figure 4 indicates that there are over 16 million Americans taking Paxil, Prozac or Zoloft at some point during 2002. This suggests up to 30 million American may have an antidepressant in any one year. And in fact we appear to have reached a point where more than half of those taking Paxil, Prozac or Zoloft are on these drugs for more than a year.

Of these patients, the numbers of people now taking Paxil, Prozac and Zoloft in the United States for one year or more is 8.3 million, the numbers taking these drugs for three years or more is 5.6 million, the numbers taking these drugs for five years or more is 3.8 million.

The Number of Excess American Suicides
From these figures, it is also possible to derive estimates of the numbers of excess deaths there have been on Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft. Clearly there must be an excess of risk for there to be any excess suicides. But even on the most favorable analysis for the FDA, that undertaken by Kahn et al in 2000, there was an excess of suicide and suicidal acts on active treatment compared to placebo, confirmed by in a subsequent publication by Laughren. This did not reach statistical significance but the best possible estimate remains one that exceeds the rate for placebo.

Many people believe that antidepressant treatment when successful can reduce the risk of suicide and there is evidence that patients who are suicidal in the course of a response to treatment become less suicidal. If this is the case, the excess of suicides found by Kahn et al would then in fact represent an even greater excess if selected from among those patients who do not show suicide risk reduction.

The FDA at present says that it is undertaking a re-analysis of its database on the lines of that undertaken by Khan and colleagues, and that the new approach will pick up some of the issues that have arisen regarding the matter. This is not likely to restore confidence in the market unless it comes with explicit reassurances that FDA has excluded from the heading of placebo any suicidal acts that had occurred during the run-in phase of clinical trials or during the phase after the formal trial had ended. It would seem likely that the true figures for suicidal acts in trials of other antidepressants currently on the market such as Celexa, and Efexor would show fewer placebo related suicide events than the current trial literature suggests (See Table 1). Perhaps FDA could clarify this.

Re-analyzing the Kahn data as outlined above it is clear that there have been approximately 180 suicides per 100,000 exposures to antidepressants compared with a figure of 68 per 100,000 exposures to placebo - an excess of 100 per 100,000 exposures to active treatment.

The DSRU figures give 212 suicides per 100,000 exposures to SSRIs. This figure drawn from UK general practice can best be compared with the Jick et al 1995 figures, derived from approximately 200,000 patients in UK general practice, who in almost all instances had treatments antedating the SSRIs, which gave figures of 68 per 100,000 patients. Comparisons of these two data sets again suggests that SSRI treatment is associated with 100 suicides per 100,000 patients in excess of the rate that would have otherwise existed on treatment with other drugs or non treatment. Despite requests for other input data from MHRA and others, no other group has offered us any other input data to the model than this.

In order to estimate the number of suicides that have actually happened in the US however it must be recognized that the patients initially given SSRIs in the US/UK may have been depressed and at greater risk of suicide than those patients subsequently given SSRIs in both the US and the UK, of whom an increasing proportion will have been either less severely depressed or anxious patients or indeed patients given these drugs for weight loss, migraine or other purposes where the risk of suicide was effectively either that of the normal population or even lower. To account for this problem we have constructed a grid, which assumes a rate of 100 suicides per 100,000 patients if all patients entered into this study were relatively severely depressed, or a rate as low as 32/100,000 suicides if all patients were anxious. The matrix then includes estimates for the number of suicides if 80%, 60%, 40%, 20%, or 0% per cent of the patients are depressed, and the remainder are anxious.

The resulting estimates for the number of excess American suicides on Paxil/Seroxat, Prozac and Zoloft can be found in Figure 6. For the 100% depression figure, this gives 70,290 suicides, or 90 per week, or 4,686 per year. For the 80% depressed cohort, the figures come to 60,619, 77 per week or 4,041 per year. For the 60% depressed cohort the figures come to 50,939 or 65 per week or 2,396 per year. For the 40% depressed cohort the figures come to 41,260 or 53 per week or 2,750 per year. For the 20% depressed cohort the figures come to 31,579 or 40 per week or 2,105 per year. For the 0% depressed cohort the figures come to 21,900 or 28 per week or 1,460 per year. These gross estimates represent figures averaged over the 15-year period from Prozac's launch in 1988.

The increasing proportion of anxious patients, and US fashions for co-prescribing other drugs, in particular the benzodiazepines, may have minimized some of the risk. However it can be noted that the model discounts all those suicides caused by drug that have been balanced out by patients made less suicidal by treatment. Given these factors, we suggest using our baseline estimate - that is 21,900.

This figure of 21,900 is quite consistent with US suicide rates as they have tracked over the past 15 years. The greatest driver of suicide rates is employment or unemployment and the 1990s have been a favorable time in the United States for employment. It is notable that in some countries where suicide rates had previously been falling such as the United States, Sweden, Finland and Holland, these countries have all posted slightly higher suicide rates this year. Another factor is ethnic mix. Reported suicide is linked primarily to white males. In so far as the ethnic composition of the United States has changed during the course of the 1990s this would lead to a downward fall in national suicide rates whether or not there were treatments for depression.

It should also be noted that as of 1999 the FDA website included details of 2,000 actual suicides that had happened on Prozac many of which were linked to descriptors such as akathisia, so these figures have a basis in dead people. The FDA website for adverse events stresses that at best adverse events if they are serious are reported at a 1 in 10 frequency and that adverse events in general are reported at a 1 in 100 frequency. There is some reason to believe that an adverse event such as suicide would be reported less frequently than other adverse events as it can be seen as a failure on the part of the clinician in the way for example that liver failure may not be construed.

As regards children, Thomas Moore in a presentation to the February 2nd PDAC committee reported the results of a study looking at the proportion of scripts issued for Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft to minors. His figures point to a 5% rate of scripts being issued to children. If 8 million adults had these drugs in 2002, this would yield a figure of 400,000 children or roughly 100,000 per drug. Over the 5 years since the CMAt document, this might have led to as many as 1.5 million children receiving Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft (with even more children on other agents). An excess suicide rate of 100 per 100,000 would lead to 1,500 excess suicides. The true figure may lie anywhere between 100 to 500 excess suicides for this 5 year period alone and for these 3 drugs alone, with an indeterminate further number of homicidal or seriously aggressive acts. The February 2nd PDAC meeting heard from a large number of bereaved parents or convicted children who appeared to be minimally if at all depressed and who appeared to have a typical signature to their tragedy of drug induced activation.

Withdrawal Designs
The PDAC hearings on February 2nd ended on what for me at least was a surreal note. Given that Paxil/Seroxat shows the greatest number of withdrawal syndrome reports to WHO for any psychotropic drug ever, and given that the full dimensions of this problem remain unknown, with the company changing its estimates as to the frequency and severity of the problem at regular intervals, it is not clear to me exactly how in a pediatric or adult population a randomized withdrawal design could demonstrate these drugs work for either children or adults.

The notion of demonstrating efficacy by a randomized withdrawal design arose in part in the antipsychotic realm before the work of Gilbert, Jeste and colleagues and Baldessarini and others showed that there was a withdrawal syndrome from antipsychotics. In the antidepressant realm, such designs are most closely linked with the work of Stuart Montgomery, and company employees. Studies of this sort, when the company has already conducted studies in healthy volunteers, showing that they become depressed and anxious following relatively brief exposure to treatment would seem deeply cynical. The notion of conducting such studies arose before Lilly began to market the occurrence of withdrawal from Paxil and Zoloft in 1997. Since then no attempt to justify such a design has been made that takes into account changed company positions on the occurrence of "symptoms on stopping" as Glaxo SmithKline now apparently refer to the phenomenon.

Warnings
At the end of the February 2nd hearings, Dr Katz said the FDA had heard a very clear message, phrased by the committee chairman M Rudorfer in terms of a need to put a speed bump on the road of treatment by inserting a warning in the material sent to both physicians and parents. Immediately after the meeting, and the following day, FDA officials talked about strengthening the warnings referring to the early phase of treatment where supposedly everyone agrees there is some risk linked to the illness.

The notion that there is a risk period has only been outlined in the case of mood disorders, it has never been suggested for anxiety disorders and certainly not for Lyme disease, migraine and the other cases FDA were presented with.

FDA officials on both February 2nd and 3rd appeared anxious to avoid committing to any distinction between the effects of the drug and of the illness.

But there is a key question they have been asked and at present have left unanswered. Should the patient whose dose is being increased after several weeks or months on treatment be regarded as a new patient?

The healthy volunteer literature points to a clear dose dependent increase in agitation in healthy volunteers. The literature in depressed or other patients on activation problems arising with SSRIs points to problems in patients arising for instance on a 40 mg dose of Prozac that had not been present on the 20mg dose. Furthermore letters from Glaxo SmithKline to healthcare professionals in the UK now make it clear that suicidality may occur in relation to dose transitions.

There are two linked safety issues here. Physicians who are concerned about the initial phase of treatment but who have not fully grasped the possible contribution of treatment to any problems arising in this phase, when presented with patients having difficulties during this period as a matter of fact are telling their patients to double the dose of treatment. Patient reports on the adverse events that have occurred to them illustrate this clearly - see below. This is exactly the wrong thing to do in cases in which a drug induced activation syndrome is a component of the problem.

Furthermore, while FDA and others may regard a failed suicidal act followed by treatment discontinuation as a near miss, in fact a great number of patients who have had difficulties on SSRIs blame themselves for what happened. In the absence of an authoritative source making it clear that some cases may stem from a drug induced disturbance, many of these affected individuals will have a longer term injury to their self-image, which given that suicidal acts are predictive of future suicides may contribute to completed suicides in the future. Can FDA really do nothing to make it more likely that some individuals at least will have these more subtle injuries addressed?

At the 1991 PDAC hearings on Prozac, FDA bemoaned the poor quality of the trials undertaken that made it impossible supposedly to arrive at a conclusive verdict on the issues. Again in 2004, FDA bemoaned the quality of the trials undertaken and the difficulties in detecting a clear signal from these studies that were not designed to investigate the issues, but added that further clarity was unlikely as these drugs were about to come off patent.

The justification offered by Dr Temple on February 3rd in not seeking any improvement in trial quality after 1991 was that the 1991 PDAC meeting had decided that Prozac was not to blame. This seems odd given that FDA complained in 1991 that the trial data was of such poor quality, and against the background of FDA's own recognition in 1991 of a risk during the early phase of treatment (the rollback risk), and given that FDA had spent a year working with Lilly on a trial protocol and suicidal ideation scale designed to improve signal quality. This suicidal ideation scale could readily have been put into every subsequent antidepressant trial and could have been part of all the pediatric studies

Consumers
The bottom line to the picture outlined above is that Americans track the fate of parcels put in the post 100 times more accurately than the fate of children or adults dying of these drugs. The answer to this problem is not necessarily more regulation of companies. A system of notification so that all drug intake in the case of a death by suicide must be notified to a central source by the prescribing doctor or by coroners at inquests would make a big difference. This should extend to all drug intake, in that it is now clear that for example bladder stabilizers such as duloxetine may trigger a problem.

Another approach would be to involve those who actually consume the medication given that the proxy consumers, the prescribers, have failed so lamentably in this area. A recent paper in International Journal of Risk & Safety in Medicine 16 (2003) 5-19, by Charles Medawar and Andrew Herxheimer points a way forward here. (See also Herxheimer and Mintzes, Canadian Medical Association Journal 2004, pages 487-88).

This report was the first published critical appraisal of the role of spontaneous adverse drug reaction (ADR) reports in monitoring the safety of marketed medicines using the British Yellow Card scheme which is regarded "as the cornerstone of the Agency's work on medicines safety monitoring", and generally regarded as the best of its kind in the world. The report was also a first review of anonymized Yellow Card reports of suspected adverse drug reactions to Paxil, relating to withdrawal reactions/dependence and suicidal behavior. Finally the report compared the value of ADR reports from drug users and health professionals.

The results pointed to miscoding and flawed analyses of Yellow Cards that have led to an under-estimation of the risk of suicidal behavior, that physician completed adverse event reports typically lack important information (e.g. patient history, dosage; outcome of reaction), and that poor reporting and data processing by physicians have impeded recognition of what appears to be a close relationship between suicidal behavior and changes in drug concentration.

Nevertheless, a reanalysis of the data pointed to an increased risk of suicidal behavior during the first few days of treatment with an SSRI that has long been suspected, even though ADR reports sent in by drug manufacturers systematically obscure this risk by using euphemisms in describing ADRs (e.g. 'Non-accidental overdose' to describe suicide attempts).

In contrast, and of perhaps greatest importance, an analysis of a comparable set of patients reports suggested that these communicate essential information which professional reporters can never be expected to provide, and that these pick up relations of adverse events to dose transition on treatment that professionals miss that have since been confirmed by company statements and an independent analysis of clinical trial data on these drugs submitted to FDA 12 years ago or more as part of the registration process for these drugs. Given the consonance between consumer reports and the clinical trial evidence on matters as serious as this, and given a failure of reporting that would not be tolerable in any other market, there are clearly grounds to think FDA should do more to encourage reporting of this kind.

The points outlined above are summarized in the set of questions, appended to the start of the document. I would be happy to contribute further on issues that the document throws up if this seems helpful.

Yours sincerely

David Healy MD FRCPsych

Note: further data from Healy & Whitaker's study in Psychiatry & Neuroscience 28 (5) 331-339 is summarized at the bottom of the page here, with rows corresponding to the SSRI, the Active comparator, Placebo
and/or Placebo Washout.

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
142. FYI 5 -- The Neurobiology of Suicide and Suicidality
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
145. My grandmother was recently switched from lorazipam ( a potentially
way more lethal drug) to Paxil. My grandmother was depressed and her idiot doctor told her she was "nervous" and put her on lorazipam -a highly addictive drug which one can easily overdose on. She kept having to take more and more to keep from shaking, never realizing the drug was the cause. A month and a half ago she was put on Paxil, while steadily being weaned from the lorazipam. No ill effects from the Paxil....I'm getting my grandma back. There are good causes for these drugs, but of course the news won't mention them. They're too busy whipping us up into a Sarslike hysteria over it.

I admit there are problems....but there are tons of benefits that are going to be thrown to the wayside.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #145
149. I don't understand how any clinician can put geriatric patients on benzos.
It's just too dangerous. Sheesh.

Glad to hear that things are turning around.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #149
150. Thanks HuckleB. A possible explanation could be his own advanced
age. We are fairly certain that he "mercy killed" my grandfather (whose only complaint was Post Polio Syndrome) with an overdose of morphine when he wasn't in any pain...and my great grandfather before him, who mysteriously passed on from undisclosed causes after a week in the hospital under the same doctor's care. It's frightening. When Grandma's in town we take her to see our doctor who is the one who took her off lorazipam. I think she is beginning to see the light. :hi:
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. Really-
Many have "sundowners" and memory problems as it is- benzo's only exacerbate those problems.
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bmbmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #149
152. Huck, you have made some excellent points.
Never, though, say never. My opinion is that there is still a place in geriatrics for "benzos" in general and lorazepam in particular. I do, however, have an extreme distaste for prescribing Paxil. I still use it, primarily for maintenence therapy. I seldom write new prescriptions for it. I have never used it in patients under eighteen, but, as an internist, I don't see a whole lot of those....
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. I don't necessarily disagree.
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 08:36 PM by HuckleB
But I do think that benzos in geriatrics should be left to those with true specialties in geriatrics, whether in primary care or psychiatric. And I would certainly hope that regular MSEs are done to follow up for the duration of the treatment, with an environmental study done prior to prescribing. I admit that this opinion is based on anecdotal nightmare stories, but my list of anecdotes in this vein is getting rather hefty.

As for Paxil, I completely agree. If someone is on it and doing well, leaving well enough alone seems the prudent course. But it's the last of the SSRIs that I would think about using initially. Alas, for my pals at the VA, they're stuck with it as a first choice, no matter how much noise they make about it. Perhaps this FDA rec will shake that old story up a bit.
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bmbmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #153
155. A mind is a terrible thing to waste-
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 08:45 PM by bmbmd
and nothing is more important than preserving cognitive function. I insist upon a team approach in the treatment of the elderly, including neurologist and psychiatrists if indicated. They do their job, I do mine, the pharm-D does his. I hope that the days of willy-nilly prescribing of powerful psychotropic drugs is over.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. I am sorry, but it was completely out of line for this doctor to prescribe
that for a woman suffering from grief and depression after the loss of her husband. I would be hard pressed to see where this drug is helpful in geratrics. But am open to discussion on it. It is my opinion that many doctors are quick to prescribe lorazepam (sorry for earlier mispelling) in an elderly patient suffering from depression. :hi:
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bmbmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. There is indeed a difference between an adjustment disorder
(situational depression) and endogenous depression. The treatment of "sadness" is time, understanding, and possibly something to restore a good night's sleep. We have good ways to do that, with and without medicines.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #156
162. Not sadness. Depression is what she suffers from. Has since before
the death of her husband. His death just compounded the problem, making the doctor's treatment all the more disgusting.
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bmbmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
157. No one has yet mentioned L. Ron Hubbard
and the Scientologists. Anybody want to take that on?
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #157
163. Aaaahhhhhh, nooooooo! *runs screaming* -eom-
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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #157
200. Ok I will
We have a saying in the south, "Even a blind hog gets an acorn once in awhile."

In other words, sure, I think he had some valid concerns about Prozac. But keep in mind, he was selling a competing and fairly ridiculous technology for eliminating fear, anxiety, addiction.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
165. Healthy - Nondepressed Test Subject Suicides during Lilly Trials
Woman in Lilly clinical trial hangs herself
Coroner will consider whether drugs played a possible part in 19-year-old's suicide.

By J.K. Wall and John Tuohy
[email protected]
February 10, 2004
A toxicology test will determine whether drugs played a role in the suicide of a 19-year-old woman who was participating in clinical trials for a new medication that Eli Lilly and Co. hopes to launch this year.

Traci Johnson, whose pastor and family in Bensalem, Pa., described her as upbeat and devout, hanged herself Saturday night in the Lilly Laboratory for Clinical Research, according to the Indianapolis Police Department. She reportedly used a scarf tied to a bathroom shower rod.

While the toxicology test is standard procedure in the investigation of suicides by the Marion County coroner, it could have huge implications for Lilly if it is determined that the trial drug -- or removal from it -- played a role in the woman's suicide. Toxicology test results are expected in about a month.

Lilly said Monday it does not believe the drug, duloxetine, was related to the death of Johnson, who attended Indiana Bible College through December. But Johnson's family and friends said it is inconceivable that the tender-hearted teenager would have killed herself.
... (more at link)http://www.prozactruth.com/clinical_trials.htm
Lilly screens participants at the Lilly Labs with physical and mental exams. In safety tests, the company also must make sure that participants do not have the disease or condition that is treated by the drug being tested. Participants must sign consent forms after receiving explanations of a drug's potential side effects and risks in both technical and layman's terms.

"It's more careful, it's more thoughtful -- almost to a fault -- than most people realize," Pressman said.



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SuffragetteSal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
184. How many employees are made to take anti-depressants?
After reading through these responses I remembered a time many years ago I was told by my employer to see a counselor (she actually was a PhD) in which it was recommended that I be put on Paxil because of work problems. Now that I think about it, I wonder how many other employees this has happened to and what the consequences could be legally...interesting... very interesting.
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
206. Anti-depressant link to suicide unproven, say regulators --
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
208. Medicine to console the sullen - Antidepressants can calm, uplift ... --
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Bush Pouts Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
214. It's not that they give rise to suicidal impulses but
they provide the ability to think about making the plan and be successful.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #214
227. Surprisingly enough, there's some truth to that
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 09:52 PM by depakote_kid
and you can see it reflected in the data that show a distinct seasonal pattern to suicide. Oddly enough- the peaks are not during the the Holiday season. They they are between mid April and early July in the Northern Hemisphere. Dr. Kay Jamison, a noted author and expert on bipolar disorder, attributes this largely to what are called "mixed states," where there is an overlap between depression and hypomania. The reasoning is that the seasonal depression that's common in winter has not yet worn off, but the person now has more energy, perhaps racing thoughts and ruminations- and so can actively carry out their deadly plans.

The same reasoning applies to the effects of anti-depressants- which is yet another reason why people need much better monitoring and the kind of continuous psychological care that may not be possible in the typical primary care practice, despite the provider's best efforts.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
217. Difficult problem.
I'm sure even designing a study to settle this issue would be difficult.

I do think SSRIs are overprescribed however, often by "family doctors" who don't really know much about them.

Here is my supporting anecdote...

Many years ago I was going through a divorce. I was not taking it well. My Dr. at the time (who IMHO is a very good doctor BTW) gave me a script for Paxil.

I went home and took one. A couple hours later I felt like I was on some kind of recreational drug. I felt *great*. I was flirting with the cashier, having a great time. A couple hours later I crashed and felt all jittery - and felt that way all night.

I told my Dr. and he assured me that "it doesnt' work like that". I took one more on his advice and had a similar, tho more negative reaction.

Now, if he'd known his stuff he would have known that a certain class of people, those with bipolar disorder, *do* have such a reaction to SSRIs. He could have solved a problem and made a diagnosis in one fell swoop. I stopped taking the stuff at that point.

As it turns out, a few months later I was diagnosed with BPD and though it is a relatively mild case my life is very much improved with lithium.

So, while I think SSRIs do a lot of good, I don't think family doctors ought to be prescribing them - that being best left to a psychiatrists with more knowledge of their proper application.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
225. FYI 6 - Two balanced mainstream press pieces
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 09:10 PM by HuckleB
Overprescribing Prompted Warning on Antidepressants
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/24/health/24DEPR.html

"Yesterday many doctors acknowledged that the new warning was sound advice and yet said they worried it might discourage doctors and patients from treating depression.

Dr. Eva Ritvo, an associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Miami, said: "A depressed patient needs to be watched closely, particularly in the initial stages of treatment or when the dosage is raised. This is something we should be doing anyway as mental health professionals." But, she added, "Untreated depression is dangerous and takes a huge toll on people's lives, and we can only hope this warning doesn't discourage people from seeking treatment."

...

Studies in children taking the antidepressants have not found an increase in suicide. But studies of some drugs have suggested that they might increase the risk of suicidal thoughts and behaviors. Research has also failed to provide convincing evidence that the drugs are effective in children, making the potential risks even less acceptable. There is no solid data linking use of the drugs to suicide in adults.

...

Dr. Harold Koplewicz, director of New York University's Child Study Center, said, "The fear I have about this warning is that many teenagers will not get the medicine because it will build resistance among their parents, and that's really a tragic outcome." He noted that suicide rates in teenagers had gone down in the United States and Sweden as use of the drugs increased."


AND...

FDA Issues Public Health Advisory On Cautions For Use Of Antidepressants In Adults And Children
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040323072045.htm

"FDA has been closely reviewing the results of antidepressant studies in children, since June 2003, after an initial report on studies with paroxetine (Paxil), and subsequent reports on studies of other drugs, appeared to suggest an increased risk of suicidal thoughts and actions in the children given antidepressants. There were no suicides in any of the trials. On close examination of the initial reports, it was unclear whether certain behaviors reported in these studies represented actual suicide attempts, or other self-injurious behavior that was not suicide-related.

FDA has initiated a full review of these reported behaviors by experts in such evaluation. However, it is not yet clear whether antidepressants contribute to the emergence of suicidal thinking and behavior."
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LatinManNH Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
228. Tin Foil Hat Theory
There are a lot of different drugs on that list, and for the gov't. to come out and issue warnings about all of them at once sounds fishy. If all the people who take these drugs just suddenly stopped taking them, wouldn't there be a lot of paranoid, unstable people around? Or am I the one who is paranoid?
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #228
232. Heh. You're paranoid. The gov't doesn't want a lot of nutters
running around? Or do they................? Do nutters vote repub? That would explain a lot, hmmmm?

Seriously, the deal is those are all drugs of a closely related family, representing each drug company's efforts to make bucks.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
235. Okay, everyone - post 216 and on, up above - emillereid and I are
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 11:55 PM by Snow
in the preliminary process of planning a study of fish oil and depression, in public, for your edification and enjoyment (no, Magic Rat, this is not that kind of thread). Jump in and follow along, this is how real science is really done.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #235
237. A lot of us already use EPA's & DHA's
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 09:21 AM by depakote_kid
The word is that they've shown some efficicacy as a mood stabilizer (and some of the preliminary studies suggest that may indeed be the case). The trick is that the effective dosage is rather high (usually at least triple the 1,500mg's that most of us take, just for general health reasons).

I've also heard that one needs to be careful with the ratios of omega 6 (linoleic acid), and Omega 9 (oleic acid) in the mix.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #237
239. Okay, this is helpful -
and just the kind of thing I'm looking for. We should probably take this to a new thread pretty soon. Contributed expertise is happily welcome, and you can just watch the process develop. Real science in action; this is how it happens!
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #237
240. Here Depakote - is this what you were talking about?
I'm doing my pubmed search and this turned up.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12816769

Looks like a pretty solid study
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #240
250. We've seen several studies along these lines
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 09:25 PM by depakote_kid
and as one would expect, they give varying results and sometimes tend to raise as many questions than they answer. It is certainly an area ripe from research- This far, these dietary subblements have shown few contra-incations for most patients, and little reported adverse drug interactions. So it would seem to me that its a very fruitfull area to investiage (one which may produce significant collateral benefits at very lille cost).

Probably why whe've been seing much of the early work funded in the EU and eslwhere.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #250
252. Oh, come on - don't be so cynical.....
we have a whole institute of alternative medicine, you know. And anyway, a study like Liz & I are working on, needs NIH funding anyway. That's the place to go for bucks. Keeps the feds from spending their money on wars and halliburton. You wanna join in? Hop in up above. We'll probably have to move the subthread somewhere soon - call it something like "Help Emillereid & Snow design a research study - get big bucks outta the feds"
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #252
253. If I don't catch it- then PM me, for sure...
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 09:37 AM by depakote_kid
I bet that I know at least 20 people more than willing to have a look....
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
238. FYI 7 - The Letter to the Editor that says it all
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #238
242. And something else - nobody has mentioned pharmacists -
they've been beating the drums for an increased role in patient education and care for years now - this strikes me as an important arena.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #242
243. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 01:21 PM by HuckleB
The more health care providers who repeat the education and check in with patients, the better. There needs to be a way for pharmacists to tie in to providers and any local emergency mental health system, especially when they come across a patient who is suicidal, homicidal, in an extreme manic state, having extreme hallucinations, etc...

The question remains: If pharmacists spend more time on this, how do they get reimbursed? Is the pharmacist education system ready to pump out more graduates, as more pharmacists would be needed if the job expands? I mention this second piece, since it's something that is a pervasive question in healthcare, especially when one notes the current nursing shortage, and the current shortage of child psychiatrists and child psychiatric mental health nurse practitioners, which very well may be feeding the problem of too many people being prescribed SSRIs with too little assessment by PCPs.

Still, pharmacists as another link in the safety net is another huge systematic matter that could add to the safety network in health care. Of course, no lawsuit wise physician, nurse practitioner, PA, RN, PT, LCSW etc... etc... is going to count on someone else to do an education piece that, if it's not done correctly, could lead to a lawsuit. So the benefit really comes in as another repeat of education and another check in on current patient welfare.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #243
244. Nursing & pharmacy are both fields that are changing drastically
Used to be if you were a woman & wanted to go into medicine, you became a nurse. Once in a while a pediatrician. Now half the student body at any med school is women. I teach residents at a medium-size teaching hospital, and some of those programs are nearly all women - neurology, for example. So who goes into nursing? I don't really know. And the traditional nursing roles are being usurped by techs - surgical and OR techs are really coming in big time, for example.

Pharmacy likewise - machines count pills, hardly anybody formulates anything anymore, and a lot of the actual dispensing is done by pharm techs. So, what do the pharmacists do? And if they want to expand their role, or add on some new functions to replace the vanished ones, who pays them? The world is shifting.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #244
246. Yes, they are...
As for nursing, one has to note that RNs are taking on an ever larger role in the assessment and care of patients, in both community practice and hospital settings, including ever more autonomy in regarrd to parts of patient care decision making trees, as physicians' time becomes less and less. The reality is that most health care is not done in a hospital setting, and so the change from nurses to techs in an OR setting is actually quite a small change when the overall system is considered. Heck, even if the overall hospital system is considered.

Further, NPs and nurse midwives are taking on an increasingly larger role in community-based outpatient care, as well as competing with PAs for hospital positions, with increasing autonomy becoming the norm, especially in the western half of the U.S. While some docs deplore this, those with a holistic view of the system welcome it, and I've noted my share of docs who say they would go to route of becoming an NP, if they had to do it all over again.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #246
247. Ha! Interesting.
we're threadjacking, I suppose, but while I'm now in LA I spent 11 years in Omaha - and mid-level practioners were uncommon enough that I knew most of them by first name. There was -one- NP-midwife, and she had to really fit to be allowed to practice. And your point about OR personel is well-taken.
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
245. This confirms my personal experiences.....
My brother-in-law commmited suicide December 2002 after long-term psychotherapy with Zoloft treatment for depression.

My long-term psychological problems (depression, anxiety disorder, panic disorder) - treated with psychiatric therapies, incarceration, drugs, etc. - did little to nothing to help my severe psychological discomfort and suicidal drives...since the age of 11....

Prozac just made the panic disorder worse, and I felt like I was not a whole person with my life in my hands while under the influence.

Addictions to tranquilizers were ended when I got pregnant with my first child in 1980.
And I will do all I can to never resort to psycho-meds again.

Life is not easy now, but I am comfortable and feel empowered with Homeopathic and herbal support - along with plenty of friends to talk things over with and to lean on in bad times.

Every single person I know who is on anti-depressants is afraid to get off of them - even though they do not feel it gives the help they were hoping for. Many seem to go from one brand to another....

No thank you - I will only advise someone to look into taking them in a crisis situation and for SHORT TERM - while looking for other avenues of help for problems and imbalances.

I appreciate the suffering that people endure and the desire for relief, but I also do not at all trust the medical world and pharmaceutical companies to find a solution for me, my family and beloved friends.

DemEx

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