Communism in Cuba should end when Castro dies: Bush

[ronnykmarshall]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070307/pl_nm/bush_latinamerica_dc_2

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Communist rule of Cuba should end when ailing leader Fidel Castro dies, President Bush said as he prepared for a Latin American tour this week.

Bush's trip is widely seen as offering a counterpoint to the populist appeal of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, whose nationalization plans he criticized.


=====================================================================================================

Ok then. Fascisms in the US should end when Bush leaves office.

[Benhurst]

1. The World's Only Superpower:

Winning Minds and Hearts One Bullet at a Time.

[kegler14]

2. Some thing certainly needs to change in Cuba, but

I really don't think we have any say about it. Or we shouldn't.

[Mika]

4. Too many Drs & clinics, too many teachers, not enough McD's

Things clearly need to be changed there.


:sarcasm:

[pokercat999]

6. Do they have casinos? They're going to NEED casinos!

:sarcasm:

[harun]

11. Anytime the literacy rate is that high Repug's start to get nervous.

They can't have their base going off to a library and getting an idea they haven't authorized.

[kegler14]

12. Yes Cuba has good medical care and yes Cuba's literacy rate

is high, but I find little else to admire about the place. Definitely not a country I'd want to live in.

BTW, I don't go to McD or to casinos.

[manic expression]

22. There's far more

For example, Cuba has direct democracy, the government is extremely responsive to the people. You can't say that about the US.

Furthermore, they send a ton of doctors overseas to third world countries.

[MarkR1717]

41. I've lost count of the times....

the Cubans have been able to choose a different Government.

[Mika]

51. They have a chance every 6 months.

Every Cuban holding an elected seat in any of the municipal or provincial or national assemblies (Cuba's democratic parliamentary system) has to face the approval of their constituents every six months in a process called 'Accountability Sessions'. At these open-to-all, week long, town hall type sessions their representative must account for their votes and actions in their official capacities, and there is a recall process in which 50%+1 or more of voters can vote to recall an elected official and hold another election in that district within six weeks if they are unhappy with the actions (or inaction) of their representative.

[MarkR1717]

65. The candidates never fail to get elected, it is a sham....

"Although there is only one candidate per seat, candidates must obtain the support of 50% of voters to be elected. If a candidate fails to gain 50% of the vote, a new candidate must be chosen. So far this has never happened for the National Assembly, because the candidates put forward by the candidacy commissions usually get at least 84% support<1>" Wikipedia.

[Judi Lynn]

67. People who are accustomed to checking Wikipedia for info. are completely aware

it cannot be considered the last word on ANYTHING, obviously. Can't be done. Helplessly foolish to push it forward as infallible.

From the Miami Herald: Wikipedia entry on Cuba sparks controversy
Online debate reflects worldwide struggle for the truth about Cuba
02 May 2006
WASHINGTON 2 May: One editor complained that Havana sympathizers were transforming a scholarly enterprise into "their own private Fidel Castro fan page." A user was tossed out after threatening to sue another for libel.

The fuss is over the Cuba entry in Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia created, edited and administered entirely by volunteers with the aim of becoming a web-based knowledge repository for humanity.

But the Cuba entry, like those on President Bush and abortion, has been snared in intense political divisions over everything from the impact of U.S. sanctions on the communist-ruled island to whether it should have a separate section on its human rights record. Russia and North Korea do not.

There have been so many dueling edits -- 30 entries on April 27 alone -- that the article has been placed off-limits to first-time or unregistered users. The article has notices alerting readers that the neutrality of four sections is under dispute.

A central tenet of Wikipedia is that articles must be written in a neutral point of view. But, as the debate on the talk page attached to the Cuba article demonstrates, neutrality is often in the eye of the beholder.
(snip)

Created by web entrepreneur Jimmy Wales, who today heads the foundation that oversees the site, Wikipedia is an example of the power of "social computing" - the ability of users to create their own content without relying on the filters of newspaper or hard-copy encyclopedia editors.

"We've got this whole movement of social computing and information of users, by users, for users," says Peter Kim, of the Internet research firm Forrester Research. "The beauty of this sort of technology is that its editable and that the community will police itself."
(snip/...)

http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/news.asp?ItemID=742

[Mika]

68. The description you provided was for the Ratification vote..

.. Which takes place after the candidate is elected to their seat (from among several candidates).

Candidates put forward by the candidacy commissions are selected in elections open to all eligible voters.

The Ratification election assures that at least a majority (at least 50% + 1) of the electorate in that district approves of the candidate. It is an extra step in their electoral process.

[MarkR1717]

72. So when was the last non Communist Party candidate??

[Mika]

74. 2003

Not all candidates have a party affiliation. The Cuban National Assembly is comprised of about 17% communist party members. Even less in the Municipal and Provincial assemblies.

There are no candidate selections by any political party.

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

[MarkR1717]

77. The CP was the only political party allowed to participate in the elections.

"Candidates for provincial and national office must be approved in advance by mass organizations controlled by the government. In practice a small group of leaders, under the direction of the president, selected the members of the highest policy-making bodies of the CP, the Politburo, and the Central Committee."

"In 2003 there were national elections in which 609 candidates were approved to compete for the 609 seats in the National Assembly. The CP was the only political party allowed to participate in the elections. A small minority of candidates did not belong formally to the CP but were chosen through the same government-controlled selection process. The government saturated the media and used government ministries, CP entities, and mass organizations to urge voters to cast a “unified vote” where marking one box automatically selected all candidates on the ballot form.

During the year there were elections for nearly 15 thousand local representatives to the municipal assemblies. After the first run-off election, the government reported that 96.6 percent of the electorate had voted. While the law allows citizens not to vote, CDRs often pressured neighborhood residents to cast ballots. According to the Cuban Commission for Human Rights, the government blacklisted those who did not vote. Although not a formal requirement, in practice CP membership was a prerequisite for high-level official positions and professional advancement."
Wikipedia

[manic expression]

83. What source are you using

It is, at the very least, editorial.

Mika's statistics show the opposite of what you claim.

[w4rma]

81. I agree with you on the elections. There need to be term limits in Cuba.

Castro should have been setting up a country where people would campaign for the highest office and learn how to lead Cuba, rather than setting up the highest position in the government in a way that, I suppose, he expects to be passed down from his son, to the next son and the next. Castro needs to realize that he doesn't have a monopoly on leadership or ideas. The best thing he can do for Cuba is teach it to sustain itself after he is gone, in a way that doesn't force his family to rule for a while before they want to do something else.

I will note that Castro has done a very good job of leading Cuba, except for that ***major*** long-term oversight.

[robcon]

52. You mean Cuba has no democracy, don't you, manic expression.

No secret ballots - open discussions where dissent is punished by prisons - I wouldn't call that democracy.

[manic expression]

53. Completely incorrect

The voting system is better than that of the US. Candidates are nominated in open meetings and are subjected to yes or no votes. It is very democratic.

Dissent is punished by prisons? You mean US-funded subversives are thrown in jail, like they should be? Yes, reactionaries funded by Washington and Miami are NOT tolerated, and that is more than justified (in fact, the same thing is illegal in practically every country).

[ProudDad]

32. I've been there -- I like the place

I'd prefer to live there than to live here with ONE MORE REPUKE Congress/President.

Although, my eyes and heart are leaning more toward Venezuela lately. They're building something wonderful buoyed up by the Cuban Example...

Don't knock it unless you've tried it -- or at least know something more about it than the bullshit fed to you by the right-wing capitalist MSM...

[Greyhound]

85. The only thing they don't have in Cuba is an irrationally self-destructive

addiction to copious quantities of crap they don't need and that will only effect them negatively.

[ProudDad]

31. And they only have

a little bit of prostitution -- around the tourists. They'll need a lot more of that :sarcasm:


Oh, yeah, and excessive drug use -- a drug war, yeah, that's what Cuba needs is a phony "war on drugs"!!!!


And rampant materialism, yeah, every country needs that.


And a loss of local control and local democracy...yeah one big right-wing central government that's in everyone's lives, emails, phone calls and bedrooms, yeah, that's what Cuba needs....


Right :sarcasm: to the power of 100

[Az_lefty]

3. Or what? We gonna invade another country?

:hide:

[Javaman]

5. Yeah, just like how it ended in Viet Nam after Minh died. LOL nt

[bluedog]

7. Peace and Respect will return to USA when

every last NeoCon Republican dies.......in my opinion

[Forkboy]

8. "....and they'll welcome us with flowers!"

[bemildred]

9. Brilliant start to his peace and understanding tour ... nt

[GirlinContempt]

10. This is too funny

"I strongly believe that government-run industry is inefficient and will lead to more poverty," Bush said when asked about Chavez's nationalizations.

"If the state tries to run the economy, it will enhance poverty and reduce opportunity."

No arguing with 'strong belief' :eyes:

Never mind Columbia has a higher unemployment rate, lower literacy rate, shorter life expectancy rate, and a higher poverty rate than Venezuela and Cuba. They're strong allies!

[Occulus]

101. WTF WTF WTF

"If the state tries to run the economy, it will enhance poverty and reduce opportunity."

Isn't running the economy one of the general duties of the State? You know, making certain it doesn't tank and stuff?

:wow:

He's insane. He's batshit crazy. There's no other explanation...

[DLnyc]

13. Facism in USA should end when Cheney dies

(or is imprisoned, whichever comes first).

[ProudDad]

34. I'm afraid not

Here are some of the true Amerikan FASCISTS:

http://www.chevron.com/
http://www.delphi.com/
http://www.att.com/gen/landing-pages?pid=3308
http://www.halliburton.com/
http://www.altria.com/?source=global_nav <-- Owners of Phillip Morris
http://www.admworld.com/naen/
http://www.cargill.com/
http://www.phrma.org/

Just to mention a few...

They aren't going away, they'll just hire some more flunkies to do their dirty work. Doesn't matter to them whether those flunkies are repuke or Dem, they have the money to buy them off.

Public Financing of ALL elections, Take back OUR airwaves for political debate. If we don't do that, we'll continue to be owned by the fascists!

[DLnyc]

45. I agree, especially 'Take back OUR airwaves for political debate.'

In particular, Broadcasters should be required to provide 5 minutes of free air time for each major candidate during a period before each election. I believe such a provision was in the original McCain-Feingold amendment, but the broadcast lobby got it yanked.

This would greatly reduce the price of campaigns, thereby taking a lot of the influence of big money out.

[ProudDad]

58. Since we probably can't ban paid political ads

part of Public Financing of election should be the requirement that ALL candidates for an office get an equal amount of time for their message as the paid ads.

Take BACK our airwaves for OUR democracy.

[Eurobabe]

48. HAHA, my inital thought too

[EFerrari]

14. This trip of Junior's is going to be another catastrophic success.

:evilgrin:

[ronnykmarshall]

18. Now I have "Rainbow Tour" from "Evita" in my head!

[dkofos]

15. If that is what the Cuban people want.

I'm pretty sure they don't want our form of alleged Democracy.

[Porcupine]

16. Because Haiti and Jamaica are such good examples.....

of how capitalism works on a large caribean island. Hasn't the US government gone out of it's way to remove the elected leader of Haiti and replace him with a junta of warlords? A fat lot of good that did the Haitian people.

Jamaica is a disaster of almost equal proportions. An example of Malthusion principles in action.

I think the Cuban people can see what their options are and choose for themselves.

[onehandle]

17. Rove is salivating for Castro's death.

He wants to remake Bush's legacy to be all about the fall of communist Cuba. You know...the way Reagan single-handedly took down the Soviet Union.

Castro must live until January 21st, 2009.

Then he can go to Hell.

[manic expression]

23. Hell?

for what? Destroying a capitalist dictatorship and establishing a better future for an entire people? Get a clue. The revolution has done so much for the people of Cuba.

[MarkR1717]

42. Is that why....

they all want to leave?

[Judi Lynn]

44. According to the CIA, they DON'T all want to leave.

From a report written several years ago concerning published CIA remarks on Cuba:

CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000> — Cuban-American exile leaders — and many Republicans in Congress — believe that no Cuban, including Juan Miguel Gonzalez, could withstand the blandishments of a suburban American lifestyle, that he and all other Cubans would gladly trade their “miserable” lives in Cuba for the prosperity of the United States — if only given the chance. Witness House Minority Leader Dick Armey’s invitation to Gonzalez, offering him a tour of a local supermarket. But U.S. intelligence suggests otherwise.

THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nation’s 11 million people would stay behind.

While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.
(snip)

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.
(snip)

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip/...)

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.htmlv

[MarkR1717]

56. I think the CIA mean they can't all..

leave.

"Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general."

[Judi Lynn]

60. Just discovered the link had changed. Here's the correct link to the article:

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

You are putting words in the mouth of the writer, obviously. Doesn't say anything remotely like that.

[MarkR1717]

64. I quoted directly from the article...

If the Cuban authorities weren't afraid of mass departures, they would allow Cubans to come and go as they please, simple as that.

The only reason Communism in Cuba didn't collapse with the Berlin Wall, and the other Communist Satellite East European States, is the Cuba is surrounded by sea, so it is a more effective prison.

[Judi Lynn]

66. Come and go as they please, do you mean like Americans going to Cuba?

That's wry, isn't it?

I don't mind sharing with you this excerpt from a book written by a former New York Times reporter and author, Ann Louise Bardach, who has travelled to and from Cuba many, many times, and written copiously about Cuba:

In Cuba, one used to b either a revolucionario or a contrarevolucionario, while those who decided to leave were gusanos (worms) or escoria (scum). In Miami, the rhetoric has also been harsh. Exiless who do not endorse a confrontational policy with Cuba, seeking instead a negotiated settlement, have often been excoriated as traidores (traitors) and sometimes espías (spies). Cubans, notably cultural stars, who visit Miami but chooses to return to their homeland have been routinely denounced. One either defects or is repudiated.

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a not to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriots who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero, or comrade), are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.


Page XVIII
Preface
Cuba Confidential
Love and Vengeance
In Miami and Havana

Copyright© 2002 by Ann Louise Bardach

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some of the conditions for travel to and from Cuba have been dramatically altered since _{George W. Bush} hacked away at the freedom Cuban-Americans alone (with very few government approved exceptions) enjoyed (while ordinary Americans were prohibited from travelling to Cuba) to the point it is damned difficult for even Cuban Americans to travel there now, allowed only one visit once every three years and only to their immediate family members.

There are Florida resident DU'ers who have discussed at D.U. their own acquaintance with Cubans who used to come to the U.S. to visit relatives, even going to other places in the States, like New York, etc., before returning home.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Alta Gracia, Argentina, Che Guevara's boyhood home

The house bore the famous iconic photograph taken in 1960 that shows the legendary “Che” wearing his classic beret at a jaunty angle. A bronze statue out front also depicted Guevara as a young boy, and a vintage motorbike inside was like the one used by Guevara for his cross-South American trip.

The two Latin American leaders also saw memorabilia including Guevara's birth certificate and hand-written letters.

“I'm sure Fidel will be touched because he knew Che so well,” said their house tour guide, Lauren Gonzalez. She said Cubans are among favourite pilgrims to the house, but it also draws admirers worldwide because of Guevara's legendary status.
(snip/...)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060722.wfidelhugo0722/BNStory/International/home

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From DU'ers posts:

Having lived in Miami for about 30 years, I heard many, many negative stories about Cuba - on a daily basis!
Finally I traveled there myself and found a country very different from the Miami and State dept. propaganda. Then I returned there several times.
I wish all Americans could visit Cuba and see for themselves what a beautiful and friendly country it is. If you love history and architecture, you will love Havana. If you tell people there they're not free - they laugh at you. They think Castro-obsessed Miami exiles are crazy. They travel to Miami and other US cities to visit relatives, and then they return to their homes in Cuba.
The ones who raft over to Miami are here for the same reason as Mexicans, Haitians, Dominicans, etc. Once they get to Miami they admit they came for economic reasons.
Is Cuba perfect? - definitely not. However, US antagonism, hostility and the very real embargo and travel ban have hurt them and Americans too.
In Miami there is a word for hating Castro - it's "la causa" - the cause. Unfortunately the MSM buys into this hatred and reports the propaganda. I hope the Chicago Tribune will send another reporter to Cuba and that Americans can get some objective views of Cuba.
I remember hoping that Lucia Newman of CNN would send back some interesting positive stories of Cuban people, but instead she took the MSM negative route.
If possible, please go to Cuba and talk to the citizens there - but go as a friend! You will be enriched by the experience.
(snip)

Posts #15, guajira

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2743774#2744118

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...It is convenient to paint Cuba as a dictatorship, but my family lives there and they have visited me in Europe several times. Travel restrictions on US citizens shine a bad light on the US. Cubans travel, believe it or not, and they choose candidates within a relatively dynamic political system, just like many other countries here in Europe. If you are still buying into the "Fidel is a dictator" line, maybe you should try to find some actual information on the state of Cuban society instead of accepting the old saw about dictatorship, it would help you understand why the USGov. won't let you travel there. PS, I've been there and so have very many of my European friends and colleagues and their impressions of Cuba are considerably more positive than their impressions of the USA. Flame away, if you m,ust, but it would be better to remove the scales from your eyes.
(snip)

Post #5, carla

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2743688#2743747

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You're not going to make any scores here. DU'ers do know more, as they THINK more than right-wing clowns.

[anotherdrew]

69. I for one will be more than happy to defend cuban self-dermination, by whatever means nessesary

if that has to mean shooting , so be it. If they decide to role over and go back to being our bitches then that's their choice, but not one I expect them to make.

[MarkR1717]

71. No. Like I said, Cubans can't come and go as they please...

can they?

[manic expression]

75. Try reading the post

instead of repeating the same tired reactionary drivel.

[MarkR1717]

78. I did. Try ...

making a point instead of sloganising.

[manic expression]

80. I did make a point

namely, the fact that your posts demonstrated not a shred of understanding for the arguments given.

[MAGICBULLET]

79. I appreciate a debate

but do you ever ask yourself if the Cubans exiles who live in Miami would actually go back to Cuba after Fidel is gone to actually fight for their country? Soemhow I doubt it, somehow I think they'd rather just rally in a stadium and celebrate his death.

[Occulus]

102. yes, invoke the Cuban exiles

Buncha loudmouthed jerks holding our foreign policy toward Cuba hostage, if you ask me.

Imagine their outcry if we ended the embargo tomorrow (which we should). Then imagine the rest of the country ignoring them in favor of sanity.

Quaint, ain't it?

[MAGICBULLET]

114. mm hmm

it's sad, they're the most spoiled latinos in the U.S. - not sure if I'll get shit for that, but it's sorta true

[Greyhound]

86. Actually they can leave, but Cuba reserves the right to determine who can

come in. In fact, Cuba is the only country in the western hemisphere, possibly the world, that doesn't fill all the slots for immigration that we grant. IOW, we make it easier and offer special perks ($14,000, automatic qualification for section 8 housing, automatic green card, etc.) for Cubans that want to come here, but they don't want to.

Read a few reports, do some research on your own, instead of simply spewing whatever crap somebody pours into you.

[Mika]

87. Actually, Cuban migrants get a $41,000 income exemption for Sec 8 housing.

For a family of four.

Its an extra special incentive for them to "flee" Cuba & come to the US. Of course, many travel back for a vacation or family visit to the Cuba they had to "flee" from. (So many so that the Bush regime recently felt that they had to limit the amount of visits back to Cuba made by those who "fled".)

Imagine how many other nationalities would "flee' their homeland if they were offered such perks of an immigration deal.

You see, it takes specially enhanced US social programs (US socialism for Cubans only) to entice them to leave the socialism they had at home.

[carla]

104. I have had family visits

on several occasions. The main limits to travel are the lack of hard currency to pay for flights and the limited number of flights that fly directly to most European locations. Cubans can and do travel freely, regardless of what you may want to think. (Mika, do you see why I think this thread promotes RW agenda/imperialist logic?)

[Judi Lynn]

112. Carla, you're saying your family members in Cuba travel to Europe to see you?

That's good to hear here, as you may guess, since you have undoubtedly seen visitors to DU trying to spread their lie that Cubans can't travel.

It's a common myth, kept alive in many cases by people who certainly know differently themselves: some extreme liars in South Florida.

[silverweb]

19. Idiot.

Sure _george, you keep right on believing your delusions.

After all, money trumps peace and your belief trumps reality. Right, _george?

:crazy:

[kestrel91316]

20. MYOB, George. That is something for the Cuban people to decide.

[manic expression]

21. Get real

The revolution does not end with Castro, not by a long shot.

Reactionary capitalists are just clueless. I hope they have fun watching their delusions proven wrong by the workers of Cuba.

[David__77]

24. Why? So they can have 20% unemployment like Poland?

If this were 1989-1991, I'd say Castro's death would likely have resulted in a breakdown of socialism. But the situation is very different today. New countries like Venezuela and Ecuador are taking a socialist path of development. China had quadrupled the size of its economy since then. Russia is more regretful than anything for the collapse of the Soviet Union, at least in the manner it did.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. I wonder what's he going to do when it, er, doesn't.

Assuming Castro dies before Bush leaves office.

[tanyev]

26. And then my family demands that all of the assets of Uncle George Walker's

West Indies Sugar be returned to us immediately!

[kiwilover]

27. Death The True Liberator

Maybe after Cheney and Bush die Amerika will become free.

[BayCityProgressive]

28. Capitalism in the US

should end after Halliburton and Friends are done putting us into a ten trillion dollar deficit while beggars live on the streets..

[ngant17]

29. Socialism is a permanent part of the Cuban Constitution

The 1976 Cuban Constitution guarantees the availability of several social programs, such as free education and health care. And as of the 2002 Admendment, the Cuban Constitution was also worded to make the socialist system permanent and irrevocable.

So that's like saying the US Constitution must end when Shrub leaves office -- oops, spoke too soon, he's done a magnificent job of shredding it so far. It might not last that long.

The only way you can eliminate the Cuban Constition and the socialist system, it is either thru corruption from within, a coup d'etat or an outright invasion. I don't think any of this is practical, especially from the standpoint of the US military trying to invade.

[Cha]

30. Who the fuck has to die

to end USA Fascism?

[ProudDad]

35. See my post #34 in this thread

[Cha]

54. Thanks! So many.

"They aren't going away, they'll just hire some more flunkies to do their dirty work. Doesn't matter to them whether those flunkies are repuke or Dem, they have the money to buy them off.

Public Financing of ALL elections, Take back OUR airwaves for political debate. If we don't do that, we'll continue to be owned by the fascists!"/b]

And so true!

[flaminbats]

33. yikes, how many countries can we invade?

first Afghanistan and Iraq..and now Iran and Cuba!! :crazy:

so where will the terrorists be hiding next?

[ProudDad]

36. The terrorists are alive and well

at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington D.C.

[SammyWinstonJack]

106. Soon too be found hiding in Paraguay.

[IndianaGreen]

37. Press reports are saying that Bush is going to get a warm welcome in Colombia

a welcome that will make Nixon's tour of Latin America seem like a fiesta.

[Judi Lynn]

46. I hope SOME newssource won't be barred from publishing the news, with photos!

We can be sure there won't be any photos coming from American newssources, and Uribe's country has murdered a lot of THEIR journalists, so any chances we have to see some great crowd photos are really limited, considering our own media almost entirely ignored the multiple huge crowds which turned out to protest the _Bushwar here.

Last time he went to Colombia you remember they wrote how many thousands of Colombian military men were used to surround _Bush and Uribe, and helicopters flying overhead, and how many police boats patrolling the water nearby when _Bush got out to make a speech. It was genuinely shameful to see an entire city teeming with soldiers and the harbor filled with police boats and coast guard boats, etc., etc. and the air thick with helicopters merely to insure the complete safety of someone who couldn't care less about the welfare of anyone else.

What's more, it was probably our own taxdollars, given in advance to Colombia, which paid for that otherworldly display of muscle, anyway. Nice way to blow peoples' wages.

[anotherdrew]

70. bush needs to go spend a LOT of time in columbia, nothing bad could possibly happen to him there ;)

[olddad56]

38. Bsuh says communism will end in Cuba. He ended democracy in this country!

[IndianaGreen]

40. Bush is seen as an American Hitler in Latin America

Colombians Reject Bush Visit

Bogota, Mar 7 (Prensa Latina) Colombian Great Democratic Coalition (GCD), which groups political parties, unions, and people´s and social movements, said it decided to respond with mass mobilizations of high political content to US president George Bush´s visit.

Prensa Latina

[talkinghead]

39. I hope communism ends in Cuba

I also hope that we end the embargo but above all I hope we don't interfere with their government. And to think that communism will fall just because Castro dies is a classic American mistake of placing too much of an emphasis on leaders. Of course, I'm not sure in this case. I do not know too much about Cuba so I can't say if civil society has been destroyed, if the only government is a cult of personality, and I don't know how the people of Cuba feel about their government. I would think that the people generally want to improve their lives and their country which is why I think they too want to see the end of communism. But I bet they hope we don't help them out with it.

[Judi Lynn]

47. You can clear up all those questions you've got about Cuba by merely READING.

There are unfortunately too many lazy people around who base their opinions on what some stupid person told them, and that's the end of their quest for knowledge. They remain idiotic enough to assume everything they hear is the god's truth.

No wonder it's so easy for idiot right-wing pResidents to get so many right-wing mental failures convinced nothing is as important as going into countries like Iraq and killing everyone who won't fall down at the feet of our soldiers, groveling for mercy.

You've got a LOT to learn, and it's going to take you a LONG time to learn it, apparently.

Don't waste your time and everyone else's writing about what you don't know.

[Bridget Burke]

50. talkinghead now has a fine, private place to catch up on his reading....

[Judi Lynn]

55. Cool! He has some years of research to catch up on, doesn't he?

A deep thinker like that needs a place to study, although we'll be struggling without his contributions. Thanks!

[INDIA]

113. Cool! He can join manic expression!

They can catch up on their reading together!

[ProudDad]

59. Actually there never was "Communism" in Cuba

or anywhere else in the world.

There was a form of Totalitarian State Capitalism in the USSR from Stalin until Gorbachev and a pale version of same (briefly) in Cuba during Brezhnev. But since then, Cuba has created their version of anti-corporate-capitalist Socialism.

I sure as hell would hate to see the end of Socialism in Cuba. It's not likely though. Even most of the folks in Cuba who don't necessarily like Castro, they're still Socialist...

[truthisfreedom]

43. The republan party should end when bush leaves office

in irons.

[DrDan]

49. well, what're we waiting for . . .

[all.of.me]

57. does that mean we are going to bomb them and...

... replace communism with fascism?

[samscafe]

61. Castro needs to go- like someone else!

[camero]

62. Bush doesn't care if Cuba is Communist

He just wants a puppet gov't that exploits it's populous to send wealth to the US elite. They won't be satisfied until they have the whole world.

Example: China

[Mika]

63. Good point. Cuba isn't like China

One reason that Cuba is on the US's corporate shit list is because the Cuban government doesn't run slave labor sweat shops to make cheap widgets for US consumers to buy at Walmart.

[Judi Lynn]

73. From Philip Agee, former CIA: A Shameful Injustice:Cuba's 50-year defiance of US attempts to isolate

Published on Saturday, March 10, 2007 by the Guardian / UK
A Shameful Injustice:
Cuba's 50-year defiance of US attempts to isolate it is an inspiration to Latin America's people

by Philip Agee

~snip~
Yet nearly 50 years of US economic warfare hasn't worked, even though Cubans estimate the cost to them at more than $80bn. After the freefall in the early 1990s, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the economy began to recover in 1995. By 2005 growth was 11.8% and in 2006 12.5%, the highest in Latin America. Exports of services, nickel and pharmaceutical and other products are booming, and the US has not been able to stop this.

In the end efforts to isolate Cuba have failed. Last September Cuba was elected, for the second time, to lead the Non-Aligned Movement of 118 countries, and two months later the UN voted for the 15th consecutive year to condemn the US embargo, by 183 to 4. In 2007 Cuba has diplomatic or consular relations with 182 countries, and Havana hosts seemingly endless international conferences. In recent years Cuba's resorts have been attracting more than 2 million tourists annually. Far from isolating Cuba, the US has isolated itself.

More than 30,000 Cuban doctors and health workers are saving lives in 69 countries, many in difficult areas. Meanwhile 30,000 young people from dozens of countries are studying medicine in Cuba on full scholarships. All come from areas lacking doctors.

Cuba's literacy programme, known as "Yes I can", has been adopted in nearly 30 countries, with thousands of Cuban volunteers teaching. The scheme, conducted in Spanish, Portuguese, English, Creole, Quechua and Aymara, has helped some 2 million people to read and write, most of whom continue their education afterwards.
(snip/...)

http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0310-25.htm

[Seabiscuit]

76. So let's be "fair and balanced": Capitalism should end in the U.S.A. when Bush dies - Castro.

:sarcasm:

[Unvanguard]

82. Smash capitalist restoration, and all that.

But I can't say that I'd object to seeing Castro's authoritarian rule ended.

[manic expression]

84. While we disagree

I would submit that the revolution must be defended, in spite of ideological differences. The "authoritarian" (IMO, it is incorrect to call it such) rule of this government has been great for the workers, and we can all agree that a reversion to capitalism would be a disaster.

I may disagree with anarchists, but I would gladly defend an anarchist revolution (by the way, I just got my IWW membership).

Solidarity.

[carla]

88. I just want to ask how long

this "headline" will be on Latest News? It is a crock that it still lingers here, it only helps the rightwingers.

[Mika]

92. Please explain how this thread "only helps the rightwingers"?

I'm interested to see why an open discussion on this subject here on DU helps the rightwingers.

[carla]

103. Mika,

my opinion is that such a statement is in itself a propaganda tactic. Firstly, Bush isn't the one who should decide what happens in Cuba "after Castro". Secondly, it sets the stage for an arrogant, even paternalistic, debate over the future of Cuban society, by encouraging "imperialist logic", thirdly, it is no longer a current topic, being considerably older than 72 hours old, which is what I understand makes a story Latest Breaking News. I don't in any way mean that an open discussion is invalid, rather, that this one serves to highlight/promote the fascist mania for the destruction of Cuban socialism. When I travel in Cuba, I am never asked by Cubans when the American system will fall or what should happen after Bush. Cubans are very interested in politics, as you know, but I have yet to hear them having this kind of paternalistic discussion of the "correct" future for another nation. I am always in favor of open discussions, but this is a thread that promotes anti-democratic attitudes by serving as an "anti-Castro" platform. Despite your best efforts, along with those of JudiLynn, PeacePatriot and IndianaGreen, the old and hackneyed imperial logic of "El Gringo" and the proponents of Monroe Doctrine and gunboat diplomacy still get a forum to promote the failed logic of imperialism. That is what I think. I look forward to your response. Venceremos...

[Mika]

107. Yes, the Cubaphobes do get a platform here on DU.

But, they usually get a red-assed whuppin' when they regurgitate their paternalistic party line. ;)

A little sunlight does reveal some grime, but it is a good disinfectant.


:hi:

[Hunky Dunky]

109. There are no Cubaphobes on DU!

I have yet to read a post that disses the Cuban people. They are wonderful people. I know, I've been there and met them.

However, there are, many, many anti-Castro DUer's. Of course, that makes sense, this being a Democratic Forum.

What is interesting is that those who support the likes of authoritarian regimes and communist rule seem to get a platform here on DU. I'm not sure how that falls under the category of either Democratic or Progressive, but it doesn't bother me. I am amused by many of their comments!

[Hunky Dunky]

89. As you argue and defend Authoritarian rule

on a Democratic Forum, you do realize that this is also a LLC site, right? By and large, LLC's are capitalist entities. I note a total of 3 ironies here! Why do you support an LLC site if you are anti-capitalist? LOL!

[manic expression]

90. Typical argument

and quite pathetic.

Almost everything I use is due to capitalist enterprises, that isn't a secret and I don't try to hide it. Just because I use stuff in a capitalist society isn't an irony; according to your logic, anyone who disagreed with the present structure of the country couldn't eat, drink, wear or use anything. Needless to say, this is an insipid argument.

[Hunky Dunky]

95. I see.

So what you are saying is that don't agree with the existence of DU as a forum in a free market capitalist system, but you'll take advantage of what it offers nonetheless. Thanks for the clarification!

BTW, people have to eat, so I could see you rationalizing the taking advantage of a capitalist system you hate in order to fill your belly with a variety and selection of foodstuffs unimaginable in countries you truly admire.

However there is no physiological need to post, so why contribute to a system you hate for no good reason? Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

[Mika]

91. I see no defense of authoritarian rule.

Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

[Hunky Dunky]

94. No defense of authoritarian rule?

As you are aware, a defense of Castro is a defense of authoritarian AND anti-Democratic rule.

[Mika]

97. It is because you say so?

Hardly. :rofl:

[Hunky Dunky]

105. LOL!

Glad I have amused you, comrade! No, not because I say so, but it is self-evident nonetheless! And it doesn't require thousands of links of proof (which you will disavow anyway).

[ProudDad]

99. NOT "Authoritarian"

NOT anti-Democratic.

Do some more homework and then come back... First check definitions. 2nd check actual history of Cuba. 3rd, try to think before typing...

Bye :hi:

[ProudDad]

100. For Authoritarian and anti-Democratic rule

look no further than Washington, DC and Wall St....

They are the masters.

[ProudDad]

98. Welcome, Brother!!!!

For our friends at DU: www.iww.org

One Big Union for all!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=268552&mesg_id=268694

[superconnected]

93. The last country this man freed was Iraq. Don't let him touch cuba.

I don't care what their problems are right now.

[opihimoimoi]

96. Like we supposed to believe Bush??? Gimme a friggen Break...

He has no credibility these days...he blew it a long time ago and still he continues unabated with BS CRAP....

[bdamomma]

108. Is Cuba Bush's next conquest, can we impeach him please?

[mikelgb]

110. Fascism in America should end wh.....

[KamaAina]

111. Is that a threat or a promise?

Didn't I read somewhere where they'd struck oil? Or was that a reference to Chavez supplying them with it?

If the former, :scared:

[Judi Lynn]

115. They've had oil there for years. DU'er Freecancat has posted, with another DU'er

confirming it that they have personally seen oil derricks there from the road passing by them, going back years.

There has been publicity recently about a discovery of a very large blob of oil also off the coast, which hasn't been opened yet, as far as I know.

If they become self-sufficient they won't been needing any discounted rates from Venezuela any longer, unlike other Caribbean islands, and certain countries in Central America, who have used this agreement for years.



Matanzas, Cuba, Santa Cruz del Norte, Cuba, Santa Martha, Cuba, Cuban oil pumps, Cuban oil refinery worker at Santa Cruz del Norte, Cuban oil platform



A TRUCK WATERS THE FLOWERS IN A PARK AT THE END OF
THE BRIDGE BETWEEN SANTA MARTHA AND VARADERO

Just found a story at MSNBC on the new oil discovery:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14095881/