Colo. Residents Spar Over Peace Sign

[NVMojo]

DENVER (AP) - A homeowners association in southwestern Colorado has threatened to fine a resident $25 a day until she removes a Christmas wreath with a peace sign that some say is an anti-Iraq war protest or a symbol of Satan.

Some residents who have complained have children serving in Iraq, said Bob Kearns, president of the Loma Linda Homeowners Association in Pagosa Springs. He said some residents have also believed it was a symbol of Satan. Three or four residents complained, he said.

"Somebody could put up signs that say drop bombs on Iraq. If you let one go up you have to let them all go up," he said in a telephone interview Sunday.

Lisa Jensen said she wasn't thinking of the war when she hung the wreath. She said, "Peace is way bigger than not being at war. This is a spiritual thing."

Jensen, a past association president, calculates the fines will cost her about $1,000, and doubts they will be able to make her pay. But she said she's not going to take it down until after Christmas.

more...

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2006/nov/26/112602743.html

[pepperbear]

1. I'm speechless n/t

[sugapablo]

23. Oh man....

Xmas came early this year!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[CatholicEdHead]

2. Peace is satanic?

[movonne]

4. I think a lot of people in this country has truly lost their minds...peace

is a bad word..how could this happen in this country...

[Freeusfromthechurch]

52. I agree!

What the hell are wrong with these people? My mind is blown.

[WindRavenX]

9. lol, my irony detector just exploded

Oy...

[Polesitter]

141. Controversy over the shape of the "peace" symbol is not new

Back in the late 60s, it wasn't common, but wasn't that rare either, to rn across information that the shape resembled an anti-christian symbol. Invert a crucifix, break the horizontal cross-piece downward toward the vertical and you get the "broken crucifix" attributed to the anti-christ.

Home owners' associations (HOA) aren't governments and no one is forced to live in a community governed by one. But when you do, you agree to live by their rules. It's not about free speech but about enforcing a contract entered into freely. The Paper Chase notwithstanding, "Contracts" is a far more boring aspect of law - but one which touches most of us far more often than 1st Amendment controversies.

[Taverner]

159. Ahhh yes the "twisted cross"

Another batshit crazy idea put out by the religious whackos...like the idea that Hitler was really a Satanist (those Christians want to wash their hands of that whole Nazi thing) and that the Beatles were actually Soviet spies.

[mcg]

164. The peace sign has nothing to do with a broken crucifix.

See
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2632066&mesg_id=2632987

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Community/MrSmartyPants_view?oid=oid%3A287120

"... The peace symbol is based on the international semaphore symbols for "N" and "D" (for Nuclear Disarmament) enclosed within a circle. The first public use of the symbol was on flags and placards during the 1958 Aldermaston march (in England). About 10 years later, the symbol was adopted as a general peace sign within the student anti-war movement. ..."

She fought this jerk's "ruling" and she had every right to.

There is also a contract here at DU.

[Purveyor]

3. What a wonderful idea for this holiday season of "Peace and Joy"...

I've yet to hang to 'big wreath' yet. It WILL be displayed with a "peace sign" in its center this year.

[genieroze]

40. How about a peace sign with the word on and a pic of the earth.

[grytpype]

5. Good for her, for not backing down.

Yeah, that's pretty offensive all right.

[InternalDialogue]

8. Oh, dear. I didn't realize until I saw the photo.

This is far worse than we thought. What will the children think?

Even that holly-themed sweater gives away her Satan-worshipping, terrorist-emboldening ways.

[here_is_to_hope]

26. It also seems as if she

may not be wearing any socks!:scared:

[TlalocW]

36. And it appears that her husband is some bargain-basement

robot that can't even run on batteries, hence the extension cord in his back.

Okay, I'm reaching.

This is just reason #5342 why homeowner associations are evil.

TlalocW

[InternalDialogue]

42. Nah, it's OK.

It's just Bush's TSP, on the job. Don't you worry, citizen! He's wired -- for his own protection!

[symbolman]

43. LOL

Yeah I thought the same thing.. is that her husband or another Xmas ornament plugged in there?

Funny :)

[Megahurtz]

136. Hahahaha!

:D

[smirkymonkey]

127. Christ! You're right....

no damn socks. Who the hell does this woman think she is?

[Lisa]

37. and that festive red ribbon -- obviously a Communist symbol!

I've heard that some odd people still claim that the peace symbol is a broken or inverted cross (Satanic?) but the group that designed it, the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, says it's based on the semaphore letters for "N" and "D", superimposed on each other -- influenced by the despairing gesture of the man in front of the firing squad in the famous Goya painting. It was meant to protest nuclear war, but has since spread to include all war. My father told me about the N and D thing, more than 20 years ago, and he worked as a professional graphics designer and artist -- he's usually right about these kinds of things.

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/~lcushing/addpages/PeaceSymbolArticle.html

[POAS]

138. The husband is wearing all blue

He must be one a them hippie librals.

[buddysmellgood]

14. Damn. That is beautiful. I'm making one this week. Up it goes.

[tridim]

19. What a great idea! And I'm in Denver.

Mine goes up tomorrow.

[Hepburn]

115. Not a bad idea!

I think I will do the same and add a sign on the bottom that says, PEACE ON EARTH ~~ SUPPORT LISA JENSEN.

[WindRavenX]

17. dark sided!!!111

:rofl:

[yellowcanine]

95. Ok that is just a Christmas wreath. Unless they have been banning all wreaths

or all wreaths this large, this association has no legal leg to stand on, imo. They can't go back and ban it after the fact, either.

[donco6]

6. Peace on earth . . .

. . . as long as "earth" translates "United States."

The rest of the world can go to hell. :sarcasm:

[mike_c]

7. I don't do christmas, but I just decided to get myself some lights this year....

I'll post pics when I get my peace sign up.

[acmavm]

10. That homeowner's association is chock full of assholes, idiots,

morans, and maniacs.

IS THIS FOR REAL? Does anyone beside me think that the national I.Q. average has to have dropped dramatically the last ten years or so????

[NVMojo]

11. I have days where I believe that 80% of the adults in this country are idiots

[1620rock]

12. OMG! ...In Colorado there really IS a "War On Christmas". n/t

[acmavm]

13. Only 80%???? You are so much more tolerant and generous than

I am.

[NVMojo]

16. well, I was trying to give us DUers a 20% break here! HAHA!

[hobbit709]

96. On a good day

I consider 90% of the population candidates for protective restraint.

[Demeter]

109. And Those Are The Good Days (Peak Intelligence!)

[LibDemAlways]

122. The percentage is probably higher than that.

The average moron out there is completely clueless.

[Megahurtz]

137. It's 85%. Seriously. n/t

[Hepburn]

116. Well. maybe this really caught my attention because,

I live in a development with a HOA. The almighty prez? He goes around sending out news letters about what he has done for the us and how he has worked to keep us safe. Right... Come to find out that he is bringing in people and having sex parties after hours in the men's bathroom at the community pool. He has the keys to everything that is locked up after 10:00 PM, so he just helped himself to the use of the facilities that my assoc fees help to support. He was dumb enough to take pictures. Sheesh!

[rurallib]

15. On another track - I have always wondered how much power

those "homeowners associations" have? My brother lives in an area that has one. He was going over the rules with me one night and I (kind of jocularly) asked if he owned his house or did they? Our parents had less rules and I am not much of a rules guy.

[TommyO]

56. They have power, but you can find loopholes

A friend related a story of an association for a gated community in CA with extremely stringent regulations. His friend was selling his house and posted a for-sale sign which was against the regulations. All sales had to go through the professionally managed association (the manager was a real-estate agent). Talk about conflicts.

His friend pored over the regulations and didn't find anything banning a certain type of lawn ornament and set about collecting said ornament. He invited about ten people over for a party one evening and planted over four hundred of the ornaments around his house, on decks and on the roof.

The next morning, the entire community woke up to over four hundred pink flamingos proudly displayed on a house that was visible to everybody driving into the community. After a bit more of a fight, the association relented and allowed the posting of for-sale signs, until the house closed escrow, in return for the removal of the flamingos.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

102. When I first moved into my condo in 1989, that summer they had

a list of rules for the pool, and you couldn't enter the water if you had an open wound. How many kids do you know that don't have nicks and bumps?

I was joking and telling my co workers about this, and they appropriately name my neighborhood "Little Russia". I immediately ran and became a board member, to relegate the renegades. You would think I was living on Parke Ave., or something!

[tanyev]

18. Guess the angels were worshipping Satan, then.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14

[calimary]

123. I guess so, since a famous nickname for the Guy they were singing

about is "The Prince of Peace."

[symbolman]

20. Did you read what that asshat KEARNS DID?

He asked the board and they said NOPE so he FIRED ALL FIVE.

I think we should find out this guy's email address and let him know that PEACE ON EARTH is a TIME HONORED TRADITION.

Christmas is ALL ABOUT PEACE.

Anyone got a phone book? Google address?

Let's let him know that's UNAMERICAN.

[fooj]

47. Guess they won't be viewing "A Charlie Brown Christmas" this year...

WTF is wrong with these people?

Nevermind. :banghead:

[Hepburn]

118. Yep, already have the phone numbers...

...for Jensen and Kearns. Have called Jensen and left a very supportive message on her answer phone. Kearns? I have not called yet. I am not going to post any numbers, but they are easy to find. I basically told Jensen that there seemed to be a lot of support for her and that as an atheist with a Jewish backgound, I was going out to find a peace symbol wreath, or make one if I have to, and hang it on my front door as to show support for her.

[Jokinomx]

21. I think she is going to start a trend....

I want one also... Everyone that makes a wreath with a peace sign in it should send a picture to the Home Owners President... let him know what happens when you repress FREEDOM OF SPEECH!

Good for her... what a crock of shit... the President of the Association is a moron.

I would think that carolers should be careful what they sing in public also... "Peace on Earth" might just be a terrorist song now.

Maybe Orielly can use this crisis like he did last year with his "War on Christmas"... this year it will be the "War on Peace".

[booksenkatz]

28. Wait, wouldn't it be "the War on War"?

:crazy:

[symbolman]

22. Looky HERE

I wonder if this is the SAME "Bob Kearns"? REVEREND ROBERT KEARNS?

The Plot thickens....

(The Pagosa Springs Sun April 9, 1970)

"Funeral services were held at 10 a.m. Saturday in Hood Mortuary chapel with the Rev. Robert Kearns of the Presbyterian church officiating."

http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/co/archuleta/obits/obtcf.txt

Looking for contact info, and to make sure it's the right guy.. may make a phone call to be sure.

[Jokinomx]

24. Check it out and let everyone know what you find....

If this does turn out to be the same Robert Kearns..... well I guess it fits... so many ministers are control freaks. Not all mind you... but it wouldn't surprize me in the least.

Like I stated... send Kearns pictures of wreaths from all over the country containing a peace sign.

:yourock:

[drthais]

25. Do what I did

google the town newspaper
write a LTTE

the Homeowners, by the way, are the Loma Linda Homeowners Association

[RamboLiberal]

49. I also sent this in to Countdown - Bob Kearns for Worst Person

in the World!

[New Earth]

27. this is the most ridiculous shit i've heard in a long time.

A DAMN PEACE SIGN IS UNPATRIOTIC, OFFENSIVE, AND SATANIC?
wtf is this world coming to....seriously...

[NuttyFluffers]

29. this is so War Against Christmas! what about "Peace on Earth (and goodwill to all men)?

or Jesus being the Prince of Peace?

someone outta send this to FOX News and get the rabid RW freakazoids to go nail this asshat's head(ass?) to the wall. get O'Reily on this, stat! he'd make an adequate shitstorm of this nonsense (being so familiary with shit already).

[symbolman]

30. I got names, addresses and Phone #s of

one Lisa Jensen, and Two Robert Kearns (one that lives in Pagosa Springs, and another in the Loma Linda subdivision)..

Anyone wants to give Lisa a call and verify which Kearns it is I'll be glad to PM it to you :)

I'd like to see 100,000 emails plug this Unamerican and Unchristian man's email box. He needs to see the power of Christ (The PRINCE OF PEACE) at Christmas...

[Mr_Spock]

31. Holy shit! Monster ass-hole RW cretins equate peace sign with bombing?

These people are too stupid to be breathing the air we liberals keep clean for these ignorant morons to waste in their vile lungs.

[northstar7]

32. Easy to find their email

Hi. If you look around a little, i.e. look up name and town in Verizon people pages, you can find their address and phone number.

And if you poke around google, it's pretty easy to find their email address. I did, and sent them as supportive an email as I could create.

It's time to say No! to these backward, ignorant, superstitious "neighbors" who condemn peace as antipatriotic, let alone unchristian! Maybe they can bully right-thinking people in a small out-of-the-way town. But if the eyes of the entire country start to focus in on them, it might not be so comfortable and easy.

(Another idea would be for people around the country to each sponsor a day of their fine.)

[earthside]

33. The "Prince of Peace" is Satanic?

Let me remember ....

The New Testament says that the heavenly host delivered the message to the sheperds: "Peace on earth, goodwill towards men." This was announced to celebrate Jesus' birth.

So, there are people in Pagosa Springs that think a symbol of peace displayed on the birthday of Jesus is Satanic?

Now, I also recall something about Jesus being the "Prince of Peace."

I'd say there are some folks in the Loma Linda subdivision that have their Christianity seriously mixed up with their radical Republicanism.

[Blue_Tires]

34. this quote tears it:

"Somebody could put up signs that say drop bombs on Iraq. If you let one go up you have to let them all go up," he said in a telephone interview Sunday.

The 1st amendment is so lost on these patriotic, freedom-loving types

[karlrschneider]

35. Well, so much for "Peace on earth, good-will to men"...

jesus.fucking.christ.
:eyes: :puke: :grr:

[genieroze]

38. Ummmmmm

:wtf:

[Lisa]

39. I hope Stephen King does his holiday lighting display again this year

[NVMojo]

44. I love it!

Think I'll do as suggested and try out a letter to the editor ....

[NVMojo]

45. I love it!

Think I'll do as suggested and try out a letter to the editor ....

[brentspeak]

41. Apparently, these homeowner assoc. twits have never heard of the First Amendment

[longship]

46. What about a "Peace on Earth" sign?

What about *THAT*?

[RamboLiberal]

48. So where are you DU'ers defending Homeowners Associations

now? I remember a post I did or commented on a couple of months ago on some other issue with an HOA where I was shocked how many DU'ers actually praised HOA's and had no problem with them.

I was surprised how easily you sacrificed your freedom to them. I'm glad I don't live in an HOA and would never buy a home where there was one.

Sorry, but I think too many HOA's can very easily become little Nazis and this one is a prime example. I wish the lady good luck and hope in her HOA there are no laws that will allow the HOA to actually come grab her home. It has happened to others with their stupid rules and by-laws.

[ima_sinnic]

54. after owning a condo for 1 year: NEVER AGAIN!

having people tell me what color drapes I can have, what kinds of plants I can put in the tiny space in front of my door, what color my front door will be, what I can and cannot leave in my little back yard, that I can't have a clothesline-- is sooo NOT "me"-- I can only conclude that people who opt to live with a homeowners association can't think for themselves and want to live around a bunch of conformists in a place where every house looks like every other one.

[MissMillie]

100. If the HOA allows Christmas decorations, then why doesn't this fall under that category?

I would never guy into a place w/ a homeowners association--that's how I feel about them.

But if there are no rules regarding Christmas decorations, then this woman should be allowed to hang her wreath.

Peace on earth IS the Christmas message. There's nothing divisive about that.

The wreath isn't divisive, the people complaining about the wreath are.

[Zorro]

117. OK I'll take the flamebait

I live in a HOA community, and I think the rules and regulations are reasonable.

I frankly like the neighborhood to maintain a consistent architectural look. I don't want my neighbors to be painting their houses purple, or raising chickens in their yard, or doing major mechanical work on their cars in their driveways.

I like the fact that there aren't cars parked on the streets at night, and that everybody keeps their yards tidy.

It adds to the serenity of the neighborhood, and helps keep everybody's property values up.

Oh yes, it's a gated community too, and I like the fact that access is restricted. It keeps the traffic down, and keeps thieves looking for targets of opportunity out.

In this particular case, however, I think the president is out of line, especially if the architecture committee voted that it wasn't a problem. HOAs can become controlled by mini-fascist authoritarians, and it sounds as if this is one such case. It's going to be interesting to see if he overstepped his authority by "firing" the members of the committee.

[RamboLiberal]

140. What the heck is wrong with a purple house

Sorry but I can't stand the sameness of so much of the housing in this country. I love when someone does something very different with paint or architecture on their house. There's a house painted near where I work that is painted purple and green and I like it. Makes it stand out from all the blah beiges and tans and grays. I love when someone is an individual.

Gee I haven't seen anyone in my non-HOA neighborhood raise any chickens. Someone did keep a couple of ponies oh some 40+ years ago when I was a kid - and you know I walked by that house every day I could.

Haven't seen anyone doing any major car work in their driveway though the guy two houses down has a couple of junkers in the driveway out back, but I could care less - maybe he won't complain if I'm a couple of days late picking up the dog poop. Now if they were in the front and on the street then I'd call the city.

We haven't had any houses robbed recently either though we're not a gated community, neighbors look out for one another's houses.

[LiberalFighter]

132. Homeowner Assn's should have legal restrictions placed on them by law

on what they can or can't require of the residents.

[Jimbo S]

161. To each their own

I agree with Zorro. I live in a condo community and I don't have a problem exchanging a few small liberties for some comformity.

If things ever get out of hand, I'll run for condo board. Not that hard.

[OneBlueSky]

50. "Peace is way bigger than not being at war. This is a spiritual thing." . . .

yes, maam . . . it sure is . . . thank you . . .

[NVMojo]

51. homeowners associations can be more controlling than city councils,

planning commissions, etc. Nevada has had trouble with them in the past and there are laws restricting HOAs.

[eridani]

53. What next? Homeland Security staking out church choirs--

--to make sure that nobody sings Hark, the Herald Angels Sing or It Came Upon a Midnight Clear?

[Tesha]

55. She should contact the ACLU.

She should contact the ACLU or its local affiliate.

This is protected political speech and, properly defended,
she'll win in a slam-dunk. It won't ever even make it to court.

Tesha

[underpants]

57. Colorado subdivision bans Christmas wreath shaped as peace sign (Satan?)

I'm sorry-How is a peace symbol confused with a Satanic symbol??

http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=5730630&nav=AbC0

DENVER A homeowners association in the southwestern Colorado town of Pagosa Springs has told one of its residents to take down a Christmas wreath shaped as a peace sign, because it's "divisive."

The association's president says three or four residents have complained the wreath is an anti-Iraq war protest or a symbol of Satan. He says some of those complaining have children serving in Iraq.

The association has threatened Lisa Jensen with a fine of 25-dollars a day until she complies.

Jensen says she wasn't thinking about the war when she hung the wreath, calling it "a spiritual thing." She says she doesn't want to be bullied and won't take it down until after Christmas. Jensen says she doubts the association will be able to make her pay the fine.

[marmar]

58. Umm.....

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[ck4829]

59. The peace symbol comes from semaphore signals

N and D for Nuclear Disarmament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_symbol#The_CND_or_Peace_symbol

[Christa]

60. Thanks!

I never knew that!

[CrispyQ]

92. Great find!

Thanks for sharing!!!

I remember in the 60's all the hoopla about the peace sign & Christians saying it was an upside down broken crose -- a sign of satan. :crazy:

I'm in Colorado & I am going to forward this link to my local news stations on the off chance they might check it out & report on it.

[meegbear]

61. Form The Straight Dope ...

<snip>

During the heyday of the peace movement, other interpretations of the symbol were also offered. A national Republican newsletter noted that it looked a lot like an emblem used by the Nazis during World War II--an apparent coincidence.

Another interpretation, widely promoted by the John Birch Society and other right-wing groups, was that the symbol was really the "broken cross," sign of the Antichrist.

One Bircher wrote that the broken cross had originally been devised by the Roman emperor Nero, who had Saint Peter crucified upon it upside down. In the Middle Ages the symbol allegedly was used to signify the devil.

I have been unable to discover any good evidence for either of these contentions.

The Birchers, you may remember, also distributed bumper stickers featuring the peace symbol with the slogan, "Footprint of the American Chicken." The far-right crowd, I tell you, they are such a stitch.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_149.html

[underpants]

63. Perhaps before the snows fall we can get word to Colorado

THAT IT'S THE TWENTY FIRST CENTURY!!!

[JoDog]

70. Actually,

The "fact" that Peter was crucified upside down appears no where in scripture. It is a legend of early Christianity. And the story clearly states that it was supposedly Peter himself who suggested he be crucified upside down, because he did not consider himself worthy of dying the exact same death as Christ.

I just love it when Christians choose to forget their own history.

[meegbear]

74. Thanks for the info JoDog ...

and :party: WELCOME ABOARD!! :party:

[woodsprite]

89. My first and only encounter with Birch Society members was

during the beginning of the Regan Administration. They were in front of the Delaware Division of Motor Vehicles spewing their literature/viewpoint all over the place (or rather, trying to). I was really surprised that DMV allowed them to set up on their walkway into the building, on their property no more than 50 ft. from their front door. It makes me angry to this day and I think about it every time I drive past that place. Even back then (when I was getting my first license), I was questioning whether they had a legal right to be there since it seemed the DMV was sanctioning such a group. Thankfully, most people were blowing past them.

[Missy M]

62. How on earth can a peace sign be divisive...

even if you have children serving in Iraq? I couldn't live in a community that has a homeowners association telling me what I can and cannot do.

[underpants]

66. PICTURE of the divisive symbol in question

In this undated photo provided by Lisa Jensen, a wreath is seen in Pagosa Springs, Colo. Pagosa Springs Colorado homeowners are battling over whether a Christmas wreath that includes a peace sign is an anti-Iraq war protest or even a promotion of Satan. (AP Photo/provided by Lisa Jensen) Sun Nov 26, 8:13 PM ET

[Missy M]

72. That is a beautiful wreath......

I am going to try to have one made for my front door. Promotion of Satan is just plain silly and laughable.

[demnan]

64. So much for peace on earth

good will toward men.

[JoDog]

65. That's what I don't get

It's the allegations of it being a satanic symbol that I don't understand. I can seen how some can interpret the peace sign as a knock against the armed forces (I can understand it, but I don't agree with it.) Are these people just that brainwashed or stupid? How did they come to think that anything that isn't an upright cross or a Jesus fish is automatically satanic? Who told them that?

And for another thing, what makes the association believe that it can actually fine this homeowner? They can say anything they like about banning stuff they think is divisive, but if they do that, doesn't that mean that every tacky front yard inflatible lighted Nativity scene should also be banned? Or how about any yard display that makes folks slow down to take a look, causing a traffic hazard? What it boils down to is that this is private property, and so long as no one is actually getting hurt, there is little anyone can legally do. Besides, if this does go to court, the homeowner will win. Juries and judges must issue rulings based on what a person of average intelligence would conclude from the evidence, not what the most short-sighted and or bigoted person would conclude.

Just when I think people can't act any dumber, something like this comes along and broadened my definition of "ridiculous".

[havocmom]

101. Welcome to Dark Ages Part II - The New World Order

Where too many twits with a modicum of authority will declare anything not to their liking as being Satan related. Too many of the masses will go along for fear of being likewise charged if they don't. Same methods, different century

The rack, thumbscrews, trial by water have already been approved. ;)

We won an election. There is a very long way to go before America is restored. Little local boards like homeowners associations and such are the pools from which the fascists up the food chain look for new talent, enthusiastic puppets, and sadists in the raw. Those who crave power for the chance to abuse others are easily addicted and will do amazingly awful things to keep getting their fix.

A few years back, Colorado was high on our list of places to consider retiring to. Then we drove through the place on the way to somewhere else. The numbers of dumb, knee jerk right wing and fundy xian bumper stickers alone were enough to change our minds.

Maybe someday we can bring democracy to huge tracts of America? It'll take time. Hope I live that long.

[China_cat]

108. Satan

4th arm of the christian trinity.

[havocmom]

111. Always thought Satan was the feet the church stood on

Sorta like making America do what you want by fussing about 'terraists'.

Gotta do what we say or you are in league with the devil.

You are either with us or with the 'terrarists'.

Only WE can protect you!

Same song, different verse. Scions of the original singers maintaining the drumbeat and chorus.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

67. WWJD? How would the Prince of Peace feel about a peace sign being used to celebrate his birthday?

[Benhurst]

68. Down with the Prince of Peace. Long live the American Jesus,

God of War!

[Tesha]

69. She should simply contact the ACLU.

She should simply contact the ACLU or a local affiliate.

This is protected political speech and, properly defended,
she'll win in a slam-dunk. It'll never even get to court.

Tesha

[Hepburn]

73. I totally agree.

I would call the local branch of the ACLU faster than someone could say, Peace Symbol.

[China_cat]

71. The HOA can not only make her pay the fine

they can take her property if she doesn't pay it and sell it out from under her.

http://www.ahrc.com/new/index.php/src/news/sub/article/action/ShowMedia/id/85
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/real-estate/HOAs1.asp

[Tesha]

75. Only if she doesn't defend herself. Lot's of HOAs try to do illegal things. NT

[China_cat]

79. The thing is that it's LEGAL.

If you sign into the HOA (and in communities with them you can't buy a house without joining) you are subject to the penalties set by the association. It's a legal contract and they can hold you to every nuance of it.

[Nevernose]

88. Unless the legal contract violates state/federal law

Or some portion of it. For instance, we have a law in Nevada that says people are allowed to put political signs on their personal property. Any contract forbidding someone to put up a political sign -- agreed to by both parties or otherwise -- is therefore invalid (or at least that portion of the contract). It's been argued and won several times in state court.

Every couple of years, some Democrat puts up a campaign sign, an HOA gets pissy, and the county Dems remind them of their legal obligations. I've seen HOAs back down ten times.

[Tesha]

93. Even if it were *IFFY*, you'd be amazed what happens when a lawyer...

Even if it were *IFFY*, you'd be amazed what happens when a lawyer
from the ACLU writes a letter on behalf of somebody.

The HOA gets to consider: "We could spend thousands or even of hundreds
of thousands defending this, and all for what? So George the dickhead
Limbaugh-listener gets his rocks off abusing Martha and her dog-damned
peace wreath that she'll take down in a month anyway???"

But it's not "iffy". You have certain rights to political speech that
simply can't be abridged by a contract with any pissant HOA.

Tesha

[China_cat]

105. Peace signs don't fall under that category.

I wouldn't live in a community with an HOA even if someone else was paying the fees simply for restrictions (which is probably in their contract) that outside displays must be approved by the HOA before putting them up.

We've got communities here that won't allow you to have clotheslines in your backyard (get a dryer or go to the laundromat, you ain't hanging your undies out in this neighborhood), drive a pickup truck, leave boxes in your yard for more than 10 minutes (even if you are just moving in), have a list of approved colors and trims for you to pick from, dictate what shrubbery you can have, fences (or no, in one place). There really isn't a whole lot of difference between these HOAs and some jails.

[mithnanthy]

76. During the Viet Nam War...

My husband (teacher) and I made a wooden 5 ft. diameter Peace Sign with bright white lights and hung it on the front of our house, which was in a rural area. At that time, even local police were instructed by the government, to report any "subversive behavior". (You could see this sign from over a mile away, across large fields to be seen from other country roads.) Shortly after hanging the Peace sign, our mail was opened, our phone would click on every call. I started yelling "F*ck You J.Edgar Hoover!!!! (Basically how I treat Agent Mike these days). The intrusion on our lives suddenly stopped after about a month. No more clicks...no more opened mail. (If we were further investigated, they would have only found a harmless teacher and stay-at-home mother.) The sign was a beautiful expression of our wishes for Peace on Earth and I wish I still had it.

[atreides1]

77. This is irony

"some of those complaining have children serving in Iraq."

I would guess that those serving are not fighting for American freedoms after all?

[xultar]

83. I would guess also that they don't want peace so their loved ones could come home.

They'd rather their loved ones stay in harms way and get hurt or something.

Who wouldn't want peace?

[Hepburn]

78. From another article:

Homeowners' Association President Bob Kearns said Wednesday that the board had required another resident to remove peace symbols a week before, and that property owner complied.

Jensen said the other property owner, a neighbor, had sunk skis marked with peace symbols in his driveway as driveway markers. She said the neighbor told her he was informed that residents were offended by the posting of the peace symbols "while our country is at war."

...

Kearns said those he contacted for legal advice had "laughed at" the idea of allowing the display of a peace symbol.

...

On Wednesday, every member of the subdivision's five-person Architectural Control Committee was asked to resign when they collectively opposed the decision by the board of directors to fine Jensen and Trimarco

....

In a public letter posted on Pagosa.com on Friday, Jack Lilly, the chairman of the committee wrote, "The Architectural Committee was asked to intervene. The five members met and decided that no message, other than a wish for peace could be inferred in the symbols and saw no violation of the CC&Rs (covenants, codes and restrictions). The Board of Directors has the authority to override the ACC and did so. But that wasn't enough. They demanded that anyone that disagreed with them should be removed from the committee. We all resigned."

...

Jensen said she may consider legal action through the American Civil Liberties Union.

http://durangoherald.com/asp-bin/article_generation.asp?article_type=news&article_path=/news/06/news061126_2.htm

OMG........these HOA people are PATHETIC! And....the lawyer obviously has no CLUE what the First Amendment says!

[xultar]

81. HOA people have little minds and dream of power.

[underpants]

84. Well good for the Architectural Control Committee

Kudos!!!

[xultar]

86. The whole neighborhood sould put up peace signs.

[AnneD]

80. Good Grief....

I haven't heard that clap trap since the mid to late 60's and the Viet Nam war. The parallels continue to grow.

[conscious evolution]

82. Another link to an article on story

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061127/ap_on_re_us/anti_peace_sign

This is the part that catches my eye!

'Kearns ordered the committee to require Jensen to remove the wreath, but members refused after concluding that it was merely a seasonal symbol that didn't say anything. Kearns fired all five committee members'

Especially this part:'Kearns fired all five committee members''

Most HOA's I am familar with require board members to be voted on or off the board.

Why does this guy hate Democracy?

[xultar]

85. Well surely he hates peace. Makes me think he's one of the people who complained.

[yellowcanine]

99. So Kearns overrode the committee charged to decide what was acceptable.

So not only did he probably do something the association has no right to do, but he did it in violation of the associations own procedure for deciding these issues. Looks like he has just may have bought himself some personal legal liability if he didn't have the authority to override the committee.

The subdivision's rules say no signs, billboards or advertising are permitted without the consent of the architectural control committee.

Kearns ordered the committee to require Jensen to remove the wreath, but members refused after concluding that it was merely a seasonal symbol that didn't say anything. Kearns fired all five committee members.

[conscious evolution]

103. ' no signs, billboards or advertising are permitted '

How does a decoration even fall under this rule?

[Hepburn]

104. I sure don't think it does...

...and I do not believe that an HOA can even ban signs associated with an election. They can put reasonable restrictions on them ~~ but totally ban them? No. IIRC, there have been test cases on that and the HOA have lost.

[Demeter]

87. If Anything, This Is More Christian than the Pagan Wreath!

What is in the water to cause such stupidity?

The modern Christmas custom of displaying a wreath on the front door of one's house, is borrowed from ancient Rome's New Year's celebrations. Romans wished each other "good health" by exchanging branches of evergreens. They called these gifts strenae after Strenia, the goddess of health. It became the custom to bend these branches into a ring and display them on doorways.

http://www.corsinet.com/braincandy/xmastrivia.html


The wreath was a pagan tradition indicating the circle of life: Birth and death. Also the Teutonic peoples placed holly and other evergreens inside their houses to protect from evil spirits and bad winter weather

http://seekingtruth3.tripod.com/xmas.html

The book "Answers to Questions", compiled by Frederick J. Haskins, found in public libraries, says: "The use of Christmas wreaths is believed by authorities to be traceable to the pagan customs of decorating buildings and places of worship at the feast which took place at the same time as Christmas.


A Peace Sign for the "Prince of Peace" makes a lot more sense than these idiots.

[yellowcanine]

107. Why does Kearns hate Christmas? Someone notify Bill O'Reilly. He should get on this as the first

line of defense against the WAR ON CHRISTMAS.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

90. Uh oh! We better call the MSM ! There is a WAR on "Peace on

Earth" and "Good will to man"! Do you think O'Lielly will take up our cause, I mean, isn't he the one who is all about a war on x-mas? I say this as a Christian!

[Hepburn]

91. Most HOAs...

...have some kind of link to them. Like a home page or a web page where they put out a community news letter. I have been googling because I sure would like an email addie for them. If I find one, I plan to write them and tell then what I think!

What a bunch of Nazi assholes, IMO.

[noonwitch]

94. I am so glad I don't live in one of those kinds of neighborhoods.

Or in a condo, which is sort of the same thing in some ways. If you sign the agreement, you have to live by the rules.

[Hepburn]

97. Well, this little disagreement...

...has made the main page of Google News ~ USA. It looks like the MSM has jumped on this story. IMO, that HOA bit off more than it can chew this time. I could not believe in the one article which I read that they made a home owner with peace symbols on his skis take them down when he staked them by his house to mark the driveway in the snow.

Unbelievable.

Here is a link to the Google News ~ USA main page: http://news.google.com/news?ned=us&topic=n

Edit for typo

[MissMillie]

98. Someone ought to tell the Gospel of Luke that it's divisive (oh and Satanic)

And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Luke Ch II v. 13-14

[Tight_rope]

106. FUCK THEM...I wouldn't take down shit!

Since when has peace become a bad thing. Oh, let me guess...when Bush became a resident in the WH.

[Hepburn]

110. Link to the local Pagosa Springs Newspaper ...

...with the article and this allows one to comment on the article.

Have fun!

http://www.topix.net/city/pagosa-springs-co

Edit for typo

[Evergreen Emerald]

112. So much for "Peace on Earth, Goodwill towards Men."

Merry Christmas. Happy war.

[NoodleyAppendage]

113. F'EM. I say we begin a collection to defray the woman's fines!

The LAST thing she (or anyone) should do is give in to ignorance, bullying, and general fascism. If she needs $$ to defray her fines, I will gladly give to stick a finger in the eye of Dark Ages bullies, who think that their ignorance gives them the right to dictate the behavior of others.

J

[Hepburn]

114. GMTA

I was thinking the exact same thing. Maybe somoene should start a fund that has a purpose of supporting world peace.

[trogdor]

121. Millions for defense, not one cent for tribute. - Thomas Jefferson

I would be more open to the idea of a legal defense fund than to just pay the damn fines.

[underpants]

126. I completely agree

if anyone finds out if a collection is being taken up let us know

[mikelgb]

119. Peace on Earth

Goodwill to all

fuck that

[Lorien]

120. Er, isn't the (supposed) goal of any war peace?

I didn't think that anyone sent their kids into battle HOPING for endless war, but maybe I'm wrong there. :shrug: :crazy:

[Charlie Brown]

151. anyone with children serving who want them to come back had better be praying for peace nt

[LibDemAlways]

124. Homeowners Associations Rules can be total

bullshit. My brother just sparred with the idiots in the HOA at his condo. His porch light gave out and he replaced it with a beauty he found in a lighting store. Very close in looks to the original, but a lot nicer and more expensive. The assholes made him take it down and then made him pay $75.00 for another one of their pieces of shit that's going to go to hell and rust out in a year or two. Meantime there are all sorts of blatent violations evident in other units - beer advertisement umbrellas on patios, sheets instead of curtains on windows, etc., but those people never get busted. They hassled my brother because his unit is right by the HOA president's and the guy hates him for whatever reason.

I am HOAless and very happy to stay that way.

[Javaman]

125. So I guess the term, "Peace on earth, good will towards men",

would be out as well since it advocates peace during a time of war? These people are basically micromanaging control freaks lording their power over the fiefdom the believe they rule.

I lived in one of those HOA type area for a VERY short period of time. They are nut job wanna-be barons. They are generally all part of a clique' (all generally right wing) and all generally have no lives other than this control trip they are on.

It will be interesting to watch these area's adapt when oil shoots up. Most of the communities are located far away from anything that matters, so as a result their supply line is very long indeed and takes a car to go anywhere, nothing is within walking distance.

I don't care for people deciding what I can and can't put on my home, screw them. My wife and I just moved to a regular neighborhood, no HOA. All the houses in the area are the dull plebe colors: beige, brown and some form of white. We painted our blue, a light, refreshing blue. Sort of a baby-blue if you will. Many of our neighbors have commented on how wonderful it is.

Screw HOA, they are a blight on our freedom of expression in this country.

[MisterP]

145. that got Stephen Downs kicked out of an Albany mall in '03

he bought a "Peace on Earth" t-shirt there, and was ordered by the feudal bailiff--er, mall security--to remove it or leave

[Javaman]

162. I truly despise what this nation has become. nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

128. Nominated for the Top 10 Conservative idiots. -nt

[mcscajun]

129. The committee responsible wouldn't order her to take it down.

So the head of the homeowners association put more weight on three or four complaining residents (at least, he said there were complaints), over the five committee members who declined to order the removal. So, he fired them...any threat is apparently coming from him alone. Perhaps this is a personal dispute? Gahd, I HATE Homeowners' associations, which is why I bought a tiny, old detached house rather than a newer condo.

The subdivision's rules say no signs, billboards or advertising are permitted without the consent of the architectural control committee.

Kearns ordered the committee to require Jensen to remove the wreath, but members refused after concluding that it was merely a seasonal symbol that didn't say anything. Kearns fired all five committee members.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2006/nov/26/112602743.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. Parents of children serving in Iraq are opposed to peace?

I'm sorry, but I just can't wrap my brain around that one. :crazy:

[goforit]

131. The addicts of war are among us!!!

[warrens]

133. Prince of Peace

Very, very Satanic, that guy. Just check out his hair. Like Santa, a crypto-commie.

[Triana]

134. God(dess) Save Us from your (false) Followers (n/t)

[Megahurtz]

135. Oh Please! These people need to seriously Fuck Off.

Why are there so many rigid and uptight premadonna goody-fucking-two-shoes people in Colorado?:shrug:

No wonder other Countries think this place is a fucking joke!:blush:

[denverbill]

139. Republicans are declaring war on Christmas!!!

Geez, now they are even demanding people not be allowed free speech on their own property!

[Odin2005]

142. Homeowners associations are what is Satanic, not the peace sign. Christofascist assholes.

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[Renew Deal]

143. I plan to send her a gift

A little Christmas gift around $25. And so should you.

[Hepburn]

144. Looks like a bit of an up-date in this article from Colorado:

Jensen said that she's already gotten a lot of support.

"One of the guys who called us was in tears almost, choked up. He said, 'I went to war and I fought for peace and they don't have the right to take that away from you,'" Jensen said.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/10399793/detail.html

There is also an video interview with Jensen on this ABC site ~~ she is on the phone, but you hear her comments.

And...there is a poll about the situation ~~ it's running almost completely in her favor with 96% supporting her in keeping up the wreath.

Please vote in it ~~ I did!

Edit to add poll info that I forgot!

[NVMojo]

156. wow, that guy rules!!

[IndianaGreen]

146. The president of the association fired the other board members

The president of the association fired the other board members when they refused to impose sanctions on the homeowners with the peace sign. This tells us that this guy Bob Kearns is a Freeper, and that he didn't like having the members of the board refuse to go along with his rightwing agenda.

[Charlie Brown]

147. Homeowner's Association threatens to fine resident over peace-themed wreath

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/peace.wreath.ap/index.html

DENVER, Colorado (AP) -- A homeowners' association in southwestern Colorado has threatened to fine a resident $25 a day until she removes a Christmas wreath with a peace sign that some say is an anti-Iraq war protest or a symbol of Satan.

Some residents who have complained have children serving in Iraq, said Bob Kearns, president of the Loma Linda Homeowners Association in Pagosa Springs.

He said some residents believed the wreath was a symbol of Satan. Three or four residents complained, he said.

"Somebody could put up signs that say drop bombs on Iraq. If you let one go up you have to let them all go up," he said in a telephone interview Sunday.

Lisa Jensen said she wasn't thinking of the war when she hung the wreath. She said, "Peace is way bigger than not being at war. This is a spiritual thing."

Jensen, a past association president, calculates the fines will cost her about $1,000, and doubts they will be able to make her pay. But she said she's not going to take it down until after Christmas.

"Now that it has come to this I feel I can't get bullied," she said. "What if they don't like my Santa Claus?"

[Old and In the Way]

148. "Some residents who have complained have children serving in Iraq"

So they are complaining about a person who wants peace and promoting an idea to help expedite getting their kids out of that hellhole. They are complaining about that? Why do these parents hate their kids so much?

[IndianaGreen]

149. The president of the association fired the other board members

when they refused to impose santions on the homeowners with the peace sign. This tells us that this guy Bob Kearns is a Freeper, and that he didn't like having the members of the board refuse to go along with his rightwing agenda.

[DURHAM D]

150. "not considered devisive..."

I wonder if they allowed political signs earlier this month? The Board of Directors is faking it - they can not possibility do anything about the wreath except bark like a dog. She should sue them for harassment - the letter from the Association proves her case.

[DURHAM D]

153. The President of the Board will definitely make KO's

worst person in the world - if not tonight, tomorrow night.

[DURHAM D]

155. Reply to self - it hurts my shoulder to pat myself on the back. n/t

[bleedingheart]

157. The Prince of Peace was born on Christmas...

the symbol seems very appropriate.

[superconnected]

152. Poor woman, doesn't she know Homeland Security will now

be watching her every move. How dare she put up the "P" symbol.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

154. Well, donchyaknow, TRUE Christians love war! Only Satan and his followers like peace!!!

Makes me sick

[GoddessOfGuinness]

158. What if it IS satanic?

Doesn't she have a right to worship Satan if she chooses?

By the way, santa is an anagram of satan...coincidence?

[Hepburn]

160. LISA JENSEN WON!!!

The HOA backed down and sent her a letter.

See new DU thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2632066

[MasonJar]

163. Isn't peace one of the main tenets of Christmas?