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2016 Postmortem

In reply to the discussion: I've gotta say this. [View all]
 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
134. Thanks for replying back :-)
Fri Apr 29, 2016, 11:10 PM
Apr 2016

I understand what you're saying.

I'm not sure I agree with your perspective on cynicism, but I can respect it. I would argue that the basis for a person's sense of cynicism (what is the person cynical about?) matters a great deal in terms of whether it motivates people to action or not. But fear and anger are the two most powerful motivators in human experience, and the things that people accomplish as a result of fear and/or anger tend to be very destructive.

Cynicism is generally the result of a person's experience with ugly reality overcoming unrealistically positive perspectives on a subject. We spend our whole lives zeroing in on things that provide us with positive feedback in a universe composed, almost entirely, of stuff that kills us. We're instinctively positive thinkers, in that sense, although what provides one person positive feedback might also cause great harm to another person.

We're often confronted with aspects of reality that threaten perspectives that we rely on to frame our lives in ways that help us to keep having positive experiences. We have some remarkable methods of dismissing apparent reality in favor of highly valued, but flawed, perspectives on how things work and how we fit in the world/how the world fits around us. Many people live their whole lives quite comfortably buffered against challenges to their fixed perspectives. Lots of very religious people live that way. Serious racists often do, as well (and I'm not equating them with some religious people in any sense other than the tendency to hold strong fixed perspectives that are not subject to challenge by reality). We all live that way to some extent.

So, to me, cynicism suggests maturity. It requires disappointment - if you're not shaken up a bit when something you've valued turns out to be an illusion, then you're not going to get cynical about it. And disappointment like that isn't a bad thing. If you realize you've lost something you believed you had, but never really did, a healthy human being is going to experience disappointment and maybe grief.

I don't know that I consider cynicism any different than wisdom. Wisdom isn't something easily obtained. It's usually the result of the experience of failure. And both result from a realization that reality isn't quite as pretty as we once thought it was.

Who really is likely to be a good leader and faithfully represent those who back her/him? In my view, that person is someone with a fair share of wisdom and a bit cynical. People who have experienced hard knocks, been bruised and shaken a bit, and understand that loss of fantasy can hurt, but it won't drag you all the way down unless you let it.

Most of the modern so-called 'highly successful' class of people (rich, happy and wielding power over many) aren't wise or cynical. They're narcissists and expect reality to accommodate their needs. When it doesn't, they blame someone else, then get right back out there and take what they want. And lying comes very easily to people who naturally value advantage over others' well-being. The human species has plenty of narcissists, and they can serve important functions, achieving goals that most people consider to be too risky to strive for or potentially harmful to achieve. But... we shouldn't make them our leaders, not in an organized, civil society. They're the ones who are most likely to say 'pick me, I'll get things done,' and the least likely to assert themselves toward anything resembling the common good.

So... my advice to you would be - don't be so hard on yourself! (It might sound trite, but it isn't. Just FYI - I spent years dealing with a disabling panic and anxiety disorder. I recovered, even though I was certain for many years that my life was over and nothing good would ever come of it. I know that of which I speak...) You seem like someone experiencing a lot of disillusionment It's OK - you will find a kind of new equilibrium when this stuff has made its way through your system. You won't quite be the same person you were, and you probably won't expect people to behave as you once did (that's why you're so frustrated about what's going on right now - the behavior you're witnessing is very disappointing to you), but you'll be wiser and when you take action in the future about things that matter to you, you won't be relying on people to behave in ways that, it turns out, they generally don't. Don't expect people in general to do good things - it's nice when they do, and it may happen at times and in ways that will surprise you, but you won't be dependent on their behavior when you decide something is worth striving for.

There are many Sanders and Clinton supporters whose writing on DU seem to be limited to variations of 'big win for my team' and 'monster fail for your team.' And I guess that's human nature - we're inclined to group-association as a species. So a lot of people waste a lot of time cheering and jeering, when they would be much better off reading what others who have been through scraps they've never experienced have to say. And a lot of narcissist politicians love them for it. Without crowds of cheerers and jeerers, they'd actually have to make rational arguments about why people should trust their judgement. Which would probably sound a lot like crickets chirping.

Well, that sucks, but it's the way people are. Understanding how people are is the first step toward useful change. If you want to get the attention of a lot of people and persuade them to act in a manner you consider worthwhile, you'd better first understand our tendency to arbitrarily divide up into teams, then fight like hell against the other side. Some else will be trying to use that to keep people from even paying attention to you. And that's when cynicism is valuable, because you're not expecting people to behave differently than they have for a very, very long time. You'll be ready for it, and when you fix your aim on other aspects of people: the capacity to value and strive for a better future for us all, the power of the drive to help others while at the same time helping yourself, the ability to make sacrifices to shape a better future.

Take care of yourself, pat

I've gotta say this. [View all] pat_k Apr 2016 OP
i bet a lot of the bernie ppl, like me, will vote for the nominee, even if we don't like her. dionysus Apr 2016 #1
That's not it at all. bkkyosemite Apr 2016 #2
what's not it? dionysus Apr 2016 #5
K&R Jeffersons Ghost Apr 2016 #34
You forgot the first time voters like me, who only got involved for Bernie and his message. Joob Apr 2016 #9
well, i hope you vote for someone, anyone... as long as you don't stay home. why wouldn't you dionysus Apr 2016 #13
Part of the problem is our politics, and we didn't know politicians like Bernie existed. Joob Apr 2016 #17
I have seen this too. northernsouthern Apr 2016 #103
They really don't. VulgarPoet Apr 2016 #117
I hope you aren't in the Reserves. Aerows Apr 2016 #140
No, served just 4 years. Joob Apr 2016 #141
But we never had you to begin with. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #25
It's called party building Armstead Apr 2016 #50
I'm all for having people at my birthday party that want to be there ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #55
That's toxic thinking for a political Party, to reject new voters rather than encourage them. Bluenorthwest May 2016 #148
30+ years as a dem, I have until Novemeber to decide timmymoff Apr 2016 #39
tell that to hillary supporters, not me. you have the right to do whatever you want. ;) dionysus Apr 2016 #47
Yes. We need to embrace the victories. pat_k Apr 2016 #71
Love the math ---> Petrushka Apr 2016 #89
Same here. BigMin28 Apr 2016 #73
I was explaining I am not an indy or green timmymoff Apr 2016 #49
i know i was kidding around. dionysus Apr 2016 #54
Every time I hear some yahoo DEMANDING I support someone I truly find despicable... 99Forever Apr 2016 #3
i find it insanely annoying but i still plan on voting. it will be with a held nose though... dionysus Apr 2016 #7
OT bunnies Apr 2016 #130
i had to move back home to take care of dad in home hospice for the last dionysus Apr 2016 #131
I'm so sorry to hear that... bunnies Apr 2016 #132
thank you so much for the kind words! dionysus Apr 2016 #135
i can't remember if i already responded, but thanks for the kind words; it means a lot dionysus May 2016 #151
I cant even imagine how difficult it must have been. bunnies May 2016 #153
2 years back my wifes dad last year mine SwampG8r May 2016 #150
i really hope so. thanks for the hopeful words. dionysus May 2016 #152
If you're not going to support the progressive candidate in November... TekGryphon Apr 2016 #10
Hillary Clinton IS NOT a progressive by any stretch of the imagination. 99Forever Apr 2016 #18
My god, you're going to give yourself an aneurism ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #26
:) Dem2 Apr 2016 #28
The only thing I've been able to feel on this site so far ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #35
Uh-oh! The math! The math! Don't be too sure Bernie's gonna crash 'n' bern ---> Petrushka Apr 2016 #88
"...people who are actually conservative and riight wing,..."?? Ps-sst! Don't look now, but---> Petrushka Apr 2016 #38
When you're dealing with people at the level of the Koch brothers, nolawarlock Apr 2016 #46
There's the flip Hillary. There's the flop Hillary. And then there's the flip-flop Hillary. Petrushka Apr 2016 #70
I don't disagree with her. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #72
We cross-posted. I edited my previous reply. Petrushka Apr 2016 #76
Not sure what you mean. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #77
I edited my reply at #70 by adding additional comments. (eom) Petrushka Apr 2016 #80
Oooooh ok. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #82
She already tweeted her opinion of that Rovian move. moriah Apr 2016 #100
Good comeback! Thanks for the link. (eom) Petrushka Apr 2016 #111
so what? rethugs call the most conservative dems out there commies and whatnot. last thing i would dionysus Apr 2016 #48
I would think they know how to define themselves better than we do. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #57
i don't like her, but i'll vote for her over trump any day of the week. she's too centrist for me dionysus Apr 2016 #61
That would be me with Bernie. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #65
I don't get my definitions from conservatives. 99Forever Apr 2016 #109
"...people who actually ARE conservative and right wing... truebluegreen Apr 2016 #115
The facts disagree with your echo chamber... TekGryphon Apr 2016 #30
Which progressive? Ed Suspicious Apr 2016 #31
For you? Trump. TekGryphon Apr 2016 #33
I trust my research. No FOX involved. Ed Suspicious Apr 2016 #36
Who is the progressive candidate? timmymoff Apr 2016 #40
If Bernie loses, the only progressive candidate will be on the Green ticket. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2016 #126
No one is DEMANDING that you do anything. NanceGreggs Apr 2016 #11
The fuck they aren't. 99Forever Apr 2016 #20
Sorry, bro. NanceGreggs Apr 2016 #23
We will keep the WH in our hands ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #27
"Some of these people don't even qualify ... NanceGreggs Apr 2016 #42
Post removed Post removed Apr 2016 #69
You've been here 5 weeks. How do you know how ugly DU was in '08? riderinthestorm Apr 2016 #87
Oops. progressoid Apr 2016 #119
I'm not your fucking bro. 99Forever Apr 2016 #108
Who, exactly, are the people in your 'our hands' group? RiverNoord Apr 2016 #137
Many here are Duckhunter935 Apr 2016 #56
What ev. n/t NanceGreggs Apr 2016 #58
As I said... pat_k Apr 2016 #16
This is the sanest thing Ive read from a Bernie fan on GDP in months. JaneyVee Apr 2016 #4
Unfortunately, your post is in the range of snark we've come to expect from the HRC side of DU. n/t Gore1FL Apr 2016 #120
Much appreciated! pat_k Apr 2016 #124
Won't Quit noretreatnosurrender Apr 2016 #6
The math ---> Petrushka Apr 2016 #90
Thank You noretreatnosurrender Apr 2016 #107
In case you're interested.. pat_k Apr 2016 #125
So do what Hillary Clinton did in 2008. joshcryer Apr 2016 #8
The campaign is going all the way to the convention. pat_k Apr 2016 #12
A platform is mere words on a paper when you can't trust the nominee. Skwmom Apr 2016 #19
Yes, but the platform can be leveraged in efforts.. pat_k Apr 2016 #127
Yes, of course there will be platform votes. joshcryer Apr 2016 #43
Is it too soon to stop looking at the math? ---> Petrushka Apr 2016 #91
Since the Democratic party kicked me out against my will by purging my affiliation Dragonfli Apr 2016 #14
Eloquently said! latebloomer Apr 2016 #51
aened? did you get kicked off the rolls? dionysus Apr 2016 #52
My party affiliation was changed from 37 years as a Democrat to "unaffiliated" Dragonfli Apr 2016 #60
it's when i type "what happened" and this POS keyboard only registers a few letters of it... dionysus Apr 2016 #62
LOL, I have 4 sticky keys and three that only work when they feel like it, I get it Dragonfli Apr 2016 #64
since, despe being a programmer, i can't type, i look down at the keys and hit post without dionysus Apr 2016 #67
Well stated Duckhunter935 Apr 2016 #59
+ another one nt riderinthestorm Apr 2016 #75
Well said. redwitch Apr 2016 #106
The question then becomes, what now? pat_k Apr 2016 #143
That is the question, I had an answer but it was hidden, look at the top post in my journal ;-) Dragonfli Apr 2016 #144
K and r. cwydro Apr 2016 #15
Thanks! pat_k Apr 2016 #24
What an excellent post! Dem2 Apr 2016 #21
Thanks! pat_k Apr 2016 #128
The Bernie Democrats will vote for the nominee. We will take the Maalox and hold our nose like LiberalArkie Apr 2016 #22
Don't speak for me. MsFlorida Apr 2016 #29
I do not anticipate that the people who were on the streets risking their lives during Occupy LiberalArkie Apr 2016 #32
But they never had you anyway ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #37
Certainly a long game does not include ensuring millions of millenials timmymoff Apr 2016 #44
Systems aren't changed in a day ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #53
You love many of Bernie's ideas but you support Clinton. It is a remarkable contortion that I've seen JumpinJehosaphat Apr 2016 #74
I don't see them as all that different. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #79
I wish I could feel the same. Clearly Hillary has changed her positions on a number of issues since JumpinJehosaphat Apr 2016 #85
You may be right. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #86
No more Carfuffle Apr 2016 #41
STOP! Hold up. Let's see if Skinner will set up a new site: a Progessive Underground JimDandy Apr 2016 #68
I suggested that the other day too mindwalker_i Apr 2016 #83
Great post! Buttons3345 Apr 2016 #45
Thank you! pat_k Apr 2016 #129
I sort of feel your pain but what good is the rant? We don't have control of the floor. snowy owl Apr 2016 #63
What lies beyond the convention. pat_k Apr 2016 #123
HRC better than Trump? Sure. But so would Ronald Reagan. aikoaiko Apr 2016 #66
Withhold? She is entitled to my support? Barack_America Apr 2016 #78
Perhaps a poor selection of words. pat_k Apr 2016 #84
I read yours, and I would ask that you consider what I think you've got wrong. RiverNoord Apr 2016 #81
It isn't over until it's over. Meanwhile, check the math ---> Petrushka Apr 2016 #93
Oh, I haven't given up on Bernie Sanders. RiverNoord Apr 2016 #136
Exactly! Petrushka Apr 2016 #142
Totally agree! Goldfish Apr 2016 #94
Thank you. pat_k Apr 2016 #95
Thanks for replying back :-) RiverNoord Apr 2016 #134
Thank you so much for the thoughtful post. pat_k Apr 2016 #138
I don't see the incongruity. Sanders is a willing conduit and Clinton is an obstacle. TheKentuckian Apr 2016 #145
How do you propose to put on the brakes? pat_k May 2016 #146
That was the point of electing someone to the executive that would be inclined to do so. TheKentuckian May 2016 #147
I do not "bow out" by not voting Hillary PowerToThePeople Apr 2016 #92
Ultimately, it's not the vows not to vote for Hillary.. pat_k Apr 2016 #96
Movements have strength PowerToThePeople Apr 2016 #98
"not a sign of a failing movement" pat_k Apr 2016 #101
Many people here have not supported Hillary Clinton for years Samantha Apr 2016 #97
Thanks Sam. pat_k Apr 2016 #99
Well I think you might be correct about the legislation because she will compromise with Republicans Samantha Apr 2016 #104
I mean we have a better shot at having... pat_k Apr 2016 #105
Long post, sort on reality. northernsouthern Apr 2016 #102
It comes to this Arneoker Apr 2016 #110
Bullshit pengu Apr 2016 #113
Yep (and a lot more succinctly) pat_k Apr 2016 #139
Everyone should absolutely keep fighting, but in the end we can't tell them how to vote. GreenPartyVoter Apr 2016 #112
Of course not. pat_k Apr 2016 #118
K & R massively. Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #114
Thanks! pat_k Apr 2016 #121
A new New Deal is more or less the goal of the movement... Orsino Apr 2016 #116
Its nice to still find quality posts here from time to time. nt. BootinUp Apr 2016 #122
Where would that be? bvf Apr 2016 #133
I'm not there yet on who I will support IF Bernie loses. As long as Bernie is still in the race, I B Calm May 2016 #149
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