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Israel/Palestine
In reply to the discussion: Why Liberal Zionists Won't Join BDS [View all]Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)13. I'm being completely serious
Let's look at your own words here;
Zionism is a form of nationalism that supports self-determination for the Jewish people. Liberalism is a political philosophy founded on support of liberty and equality.
Did you know you can have self-determination for the Jewish people - all people, in fact - with just liberalism? I mean it seems pretty obvious, maybe you're looking at the screen and going "well duh." Duh indeed, if you can accomplish this with just one half of these two terms, though, why do you need the other half?
Because that other half - the nationalism - allows you to set limits to all that equality and liberty. It's like "Woah there, not you guys, fuck off!" People outside the particular nationalism's "brand" - whether they be Arabs in Palestine, Indians in the US, Albanians in Serbia, Turks in Germany, or Jews in Syria do not get to enjoy any of that "self-determination." They don't get equality or liberty - such outsiders are branded threats, dangers to the homogeneity of the nationalist state, and efforts are made to contain, restrict or preferably, purge them.
If you are not part of the "in" group of nationalism then you are effectively "out." You are second-place, if that. Your position in the society and the rights afforded you by that society are constantly in doubt and under scrutiny. The "in" group will always reign above you, so long as they are afforded that status by the nationalist philosophy of the state. You are not equal, your liberties are truncated.
This is what racial nationalism is about, Shaktimaan. It's not about "self-determination," that's postcard bullshit. It's about gaining power over others in your society through excluding them and making yourself above them. It is not self-liberation, it is putting restraints on the liberty of others to convince yourself that you have more than they do. This is the principle of Jim Crow, white nationalism in the US - lots of white people had it extremely poorly-off, but no matter how bad-off a white person was, they still had ultimate authority over a nonwhite, and so they still felt powerful and supported the system that was in no way benefiting them.
It is not possible to commit yourself to this sort of philosophy and still call yourself a liberal. Doing so, you say "I am a liberal, except where Arabs are concerned" or perhaps, "except where Jews are concerned," or of course, "except where blacks are concerned" or any other number of possible exceptions to your liberalism. But if you're making exceptions for your liberalism, then it's not actually liberalism. It's a fig leaf, a smiley-face over your bigotry.
Look at this article here, in Dave's OP. Here we have a "liberal" Zionist... who opposes any idea the Palestinians might put forth that doesn't let him keep the patches of occupied land that he wants to keep, even though it's just not his to bargain. He feels that, due to his ethnicity, he is specially entitled to determine what another people can and cannot do with their own property. He feels that he is granted the special power to make that determination for them - he is their better, not their peer, and they must obey. They are not granted self-determination; that is reserved for him.
That's liberalism? I suppose that in the context of Zionism, he's liberal - as in, "you're liberal, for a Zionist" - in that he's "willing to consider" land swaps. But he doesn't accept at all that the Palestinians have any actual right to self-determination without Israel making decisions for them. He opposes the idea that they should be treated equally or given the liberties he himself enjoys.
You cannot - I stress, absolutely cannot - be a Zionist and a liberal. Just as you cannot be a white nationalist and a liberal, just as you cannot be a dominionist and a liberal. You also can't go the opposite way and try to be a liberal while upholding these notions; Inclusive, egalitarian libertarianism does not mesh with exclusive, restrictive authoritarianism.
As is the case with this writer, you can be 'liberal' for someone who holds to an illiberal philosophy; you can be a Jim Crow-era white nationalist who is disgusted by lynchings, for example - but this does not actually make you a "liberal," it just means that you're maybe a little less crazy than the other crazy people you identify yourself with.
===============================================
Now as to your absurd argument... One cannot be "bigoted" against a political ideology. Are you going ot tell me i'm a bigot for opposing whatever this mess is that passes for "conservativism" in the US these days? Of course not. Am I a bigot for opposing the ideology of a bunch of goose-stepping skinheads? They might say I am (After all, they just want self-determination for white people!) but I know damn well I'm not. And while you might also insist my opposition to your absurd political ideals makes be a bigot, It's simply not true; you just have no better argument to offer in defense of it.
As for Dr. King, I believe he was a liberal. I also believe that the man was a man, and fully capable of error. It's interesting that you call me a bigot for saying that people who claim adherence to a political philosophy believe in that political philosophy, and then you come around and defend the notion that an entire race of people are proponents of that philosophy just because of their race. Plainly-stated, this is just factually wrong, whether it's someone at the status of Dr. King, or someone else scraping gutters on a messageboard.
Do you believe all Jews are Zionists? 'Cause I don't. Hell, I have doubts whether all self-professed Zionists actually are. "Zionism" is a rather different thing from how propagandists like yourself try to portray it, as just a vague sort of "yay Israel!" sentimentality, but many people buy into that notion just the same.
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You can believe that wild boars stampede out your ass on tuesday afternoons, if you like
Scootaloo
Feb 2013
#16
So you don't support the notion that both nations be held to the same legal standards?
Shaktimaan
Feb 2013
#75
You've been told many, many times that the West Bank is occupied and NOT 'Jewish land'
Violet_Crumble
Feb 2013
#79
No surprise seeing I've never seen you admit anything you say is incorrect...
Violet_Crumble
Feb 2013
#133
What do you think of people against Palestinian nationalism & self-determination?
shira
Feb 2013
#42
Once again: You can apply that definition to an anti-Kluxer, and get the same result.
delrem
Feb 2013
#48
checking the subthread to get a clue about the topic before you post might help next time!
delrem
Feb 2013
#90
Delrem, your 1-state "equality" plan would result in fascist, theocratic totalitarianism....
shira
Feb 2013
#102
And again yr back to insisting that everyone defines Zionism as you do...
Violet_Crumble
Feb 2013
#86
No you don't....what? You no longer support BDS? I ask b/c I never get any straight answers....
shira
Feb 2013
#96
Violet, if you hadn't admitted earlier you were for 1-state and BDS, there'd be no confusion...
shira
Feb 2013
#99
Your views are shifty and contradictory. Hence, the questions which you refuse to answer. n/t
shira
Feb 2013
#105
We can talk issues if you'd like. Let's talk BDS and how it's remotely possible....
shira
Feb 2013
#107
well seeing as how the poster your addressing has you on ignore and this is hardly thr first
azurnoir
Feb 2013
#112
sounds like Mr Beinart is speaking from both sides of his mouth or needs a geography lesson
azurnoir
Feb 2013
#3
Well of course, to anti-zionists like yourself, all zionists are the same. Duh... n/t
shira
Feb 2013
#25
LOL. Who are you kidding? So when millions of Palestinians demand entry into Israel....
shira
Feb 2013
#66
well shira it is indeed wonderful to see your concern about ethnic domination n/t
azurnoir
Feb 2013
#123