Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
105. A piece of advice...
Wed May 30, 2012, 09:44 AM
May 2012

... from me to you, read what you've just written BEFORE hitting the Post Button. That is free advice.

"Having the State of Israel in existence in 1939 would NOT have prevented the Holocaust. Hitler still wouldn't have let European Jews leave the continent alive, would never have allowed those people to be given Israeli passports(or recognized the legitimacy of those passports). "

As you seem to be (deliberately or not) truly misinformed on this subject, allow me to rebut. Until October 1941, Nazi policy towards Jews emigration was to encourage it. Nearly 40,000 of the 500,000 Jews in Germany emigrated to neighbouring countries directly after the Nazis came to power in '33, more than 100,000 in the years after Kristalnacht. The primary impediment for Jews to leave Germany was the restriction of Jewish immigration to safe countries like Britain and North America.

Had Israel been in existence in '39 -- it would have guaranteed the lives of more than a million Jews. Hitler might still have implemented his final solution -- but a huge percentage of European Jews would have been spared. Turning the Holocaust into just another massacre of Jews (history is rife with them).

But, then, you know that -- because in your very next paragraph, you spell out that exact problem...

"The Holocaust was the United States' and Canada's fault, for barring the Jewish refugees when those countries KNEW what Hitler was going to do..."


Why do you argue against your own supposition? Are you confused, or just unsure of the fact?

"...we believe that they not only impose injustices upon Palestinians(most of whom are innocent, decent, nonviolent human beings just trying to get through their day"


Nothing could be more true. The same could be said of everyday Israelis, Germans, Japanese, Iraqis, or Afghans (name the population). However, the everyday Palestinians maintain a leadership that dedicated itself to the destruction of Israel decades BEFORE occupation. It is at best disingenuous and at worst racist to say that only the Palestinians can bear no responsibility for the actions of those who have governed them for 70 years. Israelis bear the direct consequences of their government's actions -- Palestinians (being equal partners in the conflict) deserve an equal share of complicity.



Meanwhile 50 miles away thousands are dying in Syria. Swede May 2012 #1
not posting about Syria is antisemitic? do tell azurnoir May 2012 #2
No,obsessing over Israel is antisemtic. Swede May 2012 #3
so Noam Sheizaf "obsessing" over his own country is antisemtic? n/t azurnoir May 2012 #4
This message from the link sums it up nicely Swede May 2012 #5
so your citing an exchange between talkbackers ? define being against the existance of Israel azurnoir May 2012 #6
It speaks for itself. Swede May 2012 #7
so you believe that Richard Silverstein, Phil Weiss and Max Blumental are antisemites? azurnoir May 2012 #9
I agree with the quote,I left out those names,I don't know who they are. Swede May 2012 #15
ah so that's why, albeit perhaps you need to read more threads in this group azurnoir May 2012 #26
I know who they are... Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #139
Do you believe it's antisemitic when they make Israel/Nazi comparisons? n/t shira May 2012 #34
I could better answer that had I ever read any such comparisons azurnoir May 2012 #48
Here are some links shira May 2012 #73
In the cases you provided it was borderline is that why you only provided links no excepts? azurnoir May 2012 #77
I do. Do you believe it's EQUALLY offensive and unacceptable to make Palestinian/Nazi comparisons? Ken Burch May 2012 #60
The nazi analogy being unacceptable vs. bigoted are 2 different things shira May 2012 #74
Not directly...although it did get close... Ken Burch May 2012 #80
Do you acknowledge the genocidal incitement of Hamas and the PLO... shira May 2012 #81
Even if we assume those videos say what you say Ken Burch May 2012 #88
So you're in denial and don't believe Hamas really advocates genocidal incitement vs. Jews. shira May 2012 #103
Why are you so obsessed about those videos? Ken Burch May 2012 #89
Because those videos are important context to the Arab/Israel conflict... shira May 2012 #104
Do you believe it's anti-semitic when settlers compare the IDF to the Nazis? Crunchy Frog Jun 2012 #117
Depends. When they use that analogy, it's probably more idiotic than hateful. shira Jun 2012 #119
In that case they're drawing a hateful parallel to advance their own interests. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #140
Actually, that post proves nothing Ken Burch May 2012 #58
A piece of advice... holdencaufield May 2012 #105
Well, in Sheizaf's case he presumably obsesses more over Israel because it's his own country LeftishBrit May 2012 #12
Sheizaf is just another anti-Israel activist shira May 2012 #17
I think you label so many people as 'anti-Israel activists'... LeftishBrit May 2012 #18
Anti-zionists or post-zionists (whatever they call themselves) are by definition... shira May 2012 #19
I suppose your right Ray Hanania would quickly make peace as Ray Hanania lives in Chicago azurnoir May 2012 #46
Not necessarily Ken Burch May 2012 #59
NO Palestinians are being murdered? Ken Burch May 2012 #57
Posting absolutly anything that is critical, questioning or shines negative light on Dick Dastardly May 2012 #92
Now you have piqued my curiosity, I am starting to understand a little better. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #125
well I see you unfamilar with these parts so let me explain azurnoir Jun 2012 #126
The Irony of Language holdencaufield Jun 2012 #141
There are plenty of posts in DU about what's happening in Syria Ken Burch May 2012 #56
Perhaps the creation of a Syria forum would be in order. Crunchy Frog Jun 2012 #116
An overstatement in response to an overstatement. aranthus May 2012 #8
please explain what is BS about the last paragraph which is cited here n/t azurnoir May 2012 #10
Do you believe Israel's occupation is a racist, colonial project? n/t shira May 2012 #11
See Shira's post 11. n/t aranthus May 2012 #16
one of the terms is IMO quite applicable the other is not azurnoir May 2012 #25
Neither is applicable. aranthus May 2012 #27
prior legitimite claim? are you sure you wish to go there? your using the bible to claim legitimacy azurnoir May 2012 #28
Where do you get the idea that I'm using the Bible? aranthus May 2012 #31
The West Bank is NOT within the Green Line Ken Burch May 2012 #62
Yes. That's why it's disputed territory. aranthus May 2012 #82
Occupied, not disputed. Ken Burch May 2012 #86
and the Palestinians also are guilty of the Holocaust too? azurnoir May 2012 #93
You keep making things up. aranthus May 2012 #94
The Israeli government CONSTANTLY invokes the Holocaust Ken Burch May 2012 #97
your quote azurnoir May 2012 #107
You think that because the Palestinians followed the Mufti that implies aranthus May 2012 #112
Oh its quite clear you seem to advicate for the Palestinians mostly innocent civilians to be forever azurnoir Jun 2012 #124
That's like saying "mostly innocent" Japanese or inncent Germans. aranthus Jun 2012 #127
aha it is not changing the rules it is however pointing out fact azurnoir Jun 2012 #128
Neither statlessness nor population transfer is relevant to whether the Palestinians are refugees aranthus Jun 2012 #130
in the case of Israel and its Occupied territories the transfer of civilian population azurnoir Jun 2012 #131
They were NOT left stateless, it is true. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #142
so Palestiunians get and deserve nothing and Israeli (Jews) have prior claim to everything azurnoir May 2012 #47
You just made that up. I never said or implied any such thing. aranthus May 2012 #85
Why couldn't Israel just say Ken Burch May 2012 #90
Well that's where Israel and I part company aranthus May 2012 #95
I'm glad to hear that. Ken Burch May 2012 #96
If this is the first time that you've read this from me, aranthus May 2012 #106
No I simply read what you wrote azurnoir May 2012 #108
You are misreading what I wrote. aranthus May 2012 #113
The problem is(and I say this as a person who wants Israel to survive) Ken Burch May 2012 #61
Indeed it isn't LeftishBrit May 2012 #13
Those on the left and right who deny, dismiss, ignore explain away, or excuse shira May 2012 #14
You could compare the situation with South Africa in 1994 shaayecanaan May 2012 #20
Are Palestinian refugees suffering under apartheid in Lebanon? n/t shira May 2012 #21
You can't demand that people criticize every other country BEFORE they can comment Ken Burch May 2012 #63
If the anti-Israel contingent is going to bring up the false apartheid analogy WRT Israel.... shira May 2012 #75
Are undocumented Mexican migrants suffering under apartheid in the United States? shaayecanaan May 2012 #22
You say some amazing things. BudT May 2012 #23
Interesting... shaayecanaan May 2012 #29
The word has been abused enough . . . BudT May 2012 #32
Do you think that the Israelis treat the Palestinians like crap for cynical reasons? shaayecanaan May 2012 #33
Regarding that Dayan quote eyl May 2012 #35
The quote is discussed here:- shaayecanaan May 2012 #38
No it isn't oberliner May 2012 #39
Yes it does... shaayecanaan May 2012 #40
No it doesn't oberliner May 2012 #42
Yes it does shaayecanaan May 2012 #43
No it doesn't oberliner May 2012 #44
Yes it does... shaayecanaan May 2012 #49
No it doesn't oberliner May 2012 #51
Yes it does shaayecanaan May 2012 #52
I don't have access to the copy in question anymore eyl Jun 2012 #118
Interesting slice and dice with that Dayan quote oberliner May 2012 #36
I think from re-reading . . BudT May 2012 #45
I think our discussion was originally about South Africa... shaayecanaan May 2012 #54
So that's a "no", correct? Refugees in Lebanon are not suffering under.... shira May 2012 #24
The Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are suffering, but it's irrelevant to the I/P situation Ken Burch May 2012 #64
No Ken, Palestinians are suffering under apartheid conditions in Lebanon shira May 2012 #76
No it doesn't. Ken Burch May 2012 #78
Yes it does... shira May 2012 #114
Most of the time it's not, sometimes it is. cali May 2012 #30
How can you tell which is which? oberliner May 2012 #37
As far as I am concerned, the two biggest tell-tale signs... LeftishBrit May 2012 #41
Yes, those are valid signs Ken Burch May 2012 #79
"Israel is currently engaged in the longest-lasting military occupation on earth" EX500rider May 2012 #50
The Israeli occupation is the longest-standing current occupation... shaayecanaan May 2012 #53
Occupation of Tibet... holdencaufield May 2012 #66
I think you have to choose one or the other... shaayecanaan May 2012 #67
You just argued... holdencaufield May 2012 #68
The West Bank was annexed by Jordan at the time... shaayecanaan May 2012 #83
You mean OCCUPIED by Jordan... holdencaufield May 2012 #91
If it was occupied by Jordan, then it was subsequently occupied by Israel... shaayecanaan May 2012 #99
I don't deny occupation currently exists in the West Bank holdencaufield May 2012 #101
If it's an occupation, that denies any Israeli claim to the land. n/t shira Jun 2012 #135
Semantics holdencaufield Jun 2012 #137
untrue. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #132
That is patently bollocks... shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #134
Then you choose. Apply the same standard to Israel as you do Tibet... shira Jun 2012 #136
Not anymore. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #138
The PA merely administers the territory at the pleasure of the occupying power... shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #143
Russian occupation of the Southern Kuril Islands dates back to 1945...n/t EX500rider May 2012 #69
If that amounts to an occupation, then France is occupying Alsace Lorraine shaayecanaan May 2012 #84
Is Germany still trying to get back Alsace Lorraine? EX500rider May 2012 #109
Does anybody even live on the Kurils? Ken Burch May 2012 #98
Current population around 19,000 EX500rider May 2012 #110
Thank you for the information Ken Burch May 2012 #111
When will see see 30,000 posts holdencaufield Jun 2012 #129
The West Bank occupation started in 1967 - isn't that 49 years? nt hack89 May 2012 #70
The Israeli occupation of the West Bank is not 60 years old oberliner May 2012 #71
Some facts you left out of your comparison BudT May 2012 #72
That is categorically false... shaayecanaan May 2012 #87
If this is actually important . . BudT May 2012 #100
Its the way we roll... shaayecanaan May 2012 #102
Well stated. BudT May 2012 #115
Yes... holdencaufield May 2012 #65
Antisemitism is a real issue, and is far from extinct Ken Burch May 2012 #55
Spam deleted by cyberswede (MIR Team) mifes259se Jun 2012 #120
Spam deleted by cyberswede (MIR Team) mifes259se Jun 2012 #121
Spam deleted by cyberswede (MIR Team) mifes259se Jun 2012 #122
Spam deleted by cyberswede (MIR Team) mifes259se Jun 2012 #123
Purity in Politics William deB. Mills Jun 2012 #133
Here's why criticism from rabid anti-Israel groups like the PSC is considered antisemitic.... shira Jun 2012 #144
so it could be taken in this round of guilt by association azurnoir Jun 2012 #145
Do you really wish to defend the PSC? They're infested with rabid Jew hating anti-Semites... shira Jun 2012 #146
I asked you about Miles of Smiles which allowed the group to enter Gaza with it azurnoir Jun 2012 #147
I expect an answer to my question as well. No evasion or misdirection this time, okay? shira Jun 2012 #148
quote "Miles of Smiles is actually worse than the PSC and that's saying a lot..." azurnoir Jun 2012 #149
Yeah, they are. As those articles showed. Here's another damning article, many links... shira Jun 2012 #150
serious question is there any charitable organization that has aided Palestinians azurnoir Jun 2012 #151
U.S. Designates Five Charities Funding Hamas and Six Senior Hamas Leaders as Terrorist Entities shira Jun 2012 #152
Your list is nearly a decade old do you have a current one? Interpal is not on the current list azurnoir Jun 2012 #153
Interpal is still banned in the USA. From June 2009... shira Jun 2012 #155
whats up next your lnk -Charity Interpal Cleared in UK, Banned in US azurnoir Jun 2012 #156
Even Turkey is now investigating IHH links to al-Qaeda. I mean FFS, what are you supporting? shira Jul 2012 #158
defend? nope just quoted your link azurnoir Jul 2012 #159
I removed the extension from your link and tried this http://www.ots.treas.gov azurnoir Jun 2012 #154
Its war advocation Individualism Jun 2012 #157
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Israel/Palestine»No, criticism of Israel i...»Reply #105