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olddad56

(5,732 posts)

146. My son was born Cesarean, and his mother was too out of it from the anesthetic to hold him.

Wed Mar 12, 2014, 05:32 PM

Mar 2014

I was the there to hold him, and to accompany him when they carted him to the room where the nurses clean him up. I held him and he never left my sight until his mom had recovered enough to hold him.

She wanted me to be there. I think my son did too. That might not be the case in the situation that lead to this lawsuit. We had not planned on the Cesarean.

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NJ court ruling blocking newborn's dad from delivery room is first in nation [View all] alp227 Mar 2014 OP

Theoretically, an interesting case joeglow3 Mar 2014 #1

That's how I see it too. Before birth there's one patient who has every right NYC Liberal Mar 2014 #5

If the father is not paying any of the hospital/medical bills, would he still have that right? Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #9

Barring some other court order about custody or a restraining order, NYC Liberal Mar 2014 #12

This is about a patient's privacy, not money. (nt) PotatoChip Mar 2014 #13

While I kind of understand the privacy issue, I think that it is avebury Mar 2014 #174

it has ALWAYS been the policy that no one goes in that room unless the mother geek tragedy Mar 2014 #179

Except if you read the article, he DID NOT avebury Mar 2014 #182

His attorney did file a motion to geek tragedy Mar 2014 #185

I personally think that he was stupid avebury Mar 2014 #188

He tried to force his way into her medical procedure. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #189

Post removed Post removed Mar 2014 #196

Your determination to take his side and you calling her geek tragedy Mar 2014 #200

Not an angel either. avebury Mar 2014 #207

"Deny the daughter her father's surname." geek tragedy Mar 2014 #208

Since a child is of 2 parents avebury Mar 2014 #215

Why do you think she is such an awful human being geek tragedy Mar 2014 #217

When a single woman has a child Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #232

Um, I'm married to the father of my kids and they have my surname. Laffy Kat Mar 2014 #236

Are you crazy? Have you ever produced a child? Tumbulu Mar 2014 #250

Let's review what you just said there: Squinch Mar 2014 #206

My issues with her are as follows: avebury Mar 2014 #212

Until you have produced a baby out of your own body Tumbulu Mar 2014 #251

One thousand percent agree laundry_queen Mar 2014 #265

First of all, I see no reason why we need to assume that the child will have the father's surname. Squinch Mar 2014 #296

If the father is known, his name should be on that birth certificiate, Jamastiene Mar 2014 #285

You've obviously never gone through labor and childbirth. It is physically and emotionally 1monster Mar 2014 #222

I am not arguing over the who is present during avebury Mar 2014 #227

Over two days of it for me Tumbulu Mar 2014 #252

It sucks for the man, but it's still the woman's choice. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #226

The problem can occur is when the parents have a bad avebury Mar 2014 #229

Paternity and guardianship have nothing to do with who pays the bills. eggplant Mar 2014 #14

Yes, but this is a specific situation. The child is newborn--and will only be so once. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #19

So if the mother is not paying any bills ... JustABozoOnThisBus Mar 2014 #20

Good point. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #37

Nope. Visitation rights have nothing to do with who is paying the bill. eggplant Mar 2014 #113

Exactly. Two completely separate issues in the courts. joeglow3 Mar 2014 #23

You're right... Deep13 Mar 2014 #204

Visitation and Support are separate questions treestar Mar 2014 #223

agree with post 1 & 5 northoftheborder Mar 2014 #194

No, he doesn't have the right to invade her geek tragedy Mar 2014 #29

Move the baby to a different room right after birth joeglow3 Mar 2014 #35

Because his rights trump hers? geek tragedy Mar 2014 #38

It is NOT medically necessary for this to be done in that room joeglow3 Mar 2014 #41

You're arguing his rights trump hers. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #44

I am saying both parents have equal rights joeglow3 Mar 2014 #46

Judge disagreed with you. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #49

Actually, right after birth is the time to introduce breast feeding. Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #150

Exactly. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #158

Favoring the right of the baby to be breastfed is a progressive value. pnwmom Mar 2014 #178

Exactly. The father has a lifetime with his child laundry_queen Mar 2014 #266

When one gender contributes a microscopic sperm, MadrasT Mar 2014 #181

right on! nt Euphoria Mar 2014 #245

One gender, the mother actually produced the child Tumbulu Mar 2014 #255

Something happened to elicit such irrational anger issues joeglow3 Mar 2014 #280

Much as in saying "That is bullshit"? LanternWaste Mar 2014 #295

Ah. Of course. Someone is making a perfectly valid point about the rights of the mother Squinch Mar 2014 #299

"Fuck him" is not a valid reaction to giving birth (however you want to describe it). joeglow3 Mar 2014 #300

Give birth and then talk to me. Squinch Mar 2014 #303

I really hope you see the flaw of that logic joeglow3 Mar 2014 #306

I haven't personally experienced it. But I am smart enough to get my information from those who Squinch Mar 2014 #311

I get mine from a wife with 15 years in the profession as a nurse joeglow3 Mar 2014 #314

You actually said "thanks for playing," didn't you? Is there a double no-backs on that? Squinch Mar 2014 #317

You give birth and see how many times you say or think that Tumbulu Mar 2014 #307

The fact that you are now making shit up speaks even more about your confidence joeglow3 Mar 2014 #308

Yes, I have a had a baby Tumbulu Mar 2014 #301

I never argued during the delivery joeglow3 Mar 2014 #304

Oh now, who appears to be damaged? Hmm Tumbulu Mar 2014 #310

I advocated for giving BOTH parents an opportunity to experience THEIR child joeglow3 Mar 2014 #315

You advocated taking the child away from the mother right after giving birth no less Tumbulu Mar 2014 #318

That is NOT what I said joeglow3 Mar 2014 #320

Read your own posts, brother Tumbulu Mar 2014 #322

She probably didn't notify him that his child was about to be born joeglow3 Mar 2014 #323

Sending texts WHILE IN LABOR??????? Tumbulu Mar 2014 #325

My wife was fielding work calls while in labor joeglow3 Mar 2014 #327

No. The baby should be in the mother's arms after the birth. pnwmom Mar 2014 #100

That is right nt Tumbulu Mar 2014 #256

Wow, that sounds kind of backwards. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #238

Babies room with their mothers unless there is something Ilsa Mar 2014 #268

Facts a little bit confused between story + headline, imo. elleng Mar 2014 #2

"As a visitor" isn't the same as being a parent starroute Mar 2014 #33

I suspect things have changed over time, elleng Mar 2014 #40

Wow, when was that? Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #244

Health Concern was key JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #3

he never asked to be in the delivery room, only to be able to see the baby at the hospital as soon leftyohiolib Mar 2014 #6

And he got what he wanted JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #10

that's a good question leftyohiolib Mar 2014 #18

Then, the baby should have been carted away right after birth joeglow3 Mar 2014 #27

Yes, forget medical procedures and geek tragedy Mar 2014 #34

What fucking sexist view joeglow3 Mar 2014 #36

He doesn't need to hold the baby in the first minute. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #39

Why not? joeglow3 Mar 2014 #42

Ask any woman who's given birth. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #45

That was never in dispute joeglow3 Mar 2014 #47

No, most decent people would acknowledge geek tragedy Mar 2014 #50

And most decent people would recognize the rights of both people to be there joeglow3 Mar 2014 #51

She was not obligated to tell him that she was even in labor geek tragedy Mar 2014 #53

MRA? Half-Century Man Mar 2014 #77

Men's Rights activist. nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #78

Female or Male rights? It should be phrased otherwise. It should be Human rights. Half-Century Man Mar 2014 #89

when the mother is unmarried, she is the only legal parent geek tragedy Mar 2014 #90

Gotta question the legal parent thing. Half-Century Man Mar 2014 #94

go ahead and find a state with a different rule. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #95

And wasn't that supplied via testimony? Half-Century Man Mar 2014 #97

he could certainly argue for that in court, after the birth geek tragedy Mar 2014 #103

Well, I'm guessing that the existence of a civil suit means Half-Century Man Mar 2014 #106

and he failed for necessary reasons, since he doesn't get custody geek tragedy Mar 2014 #108

Uterus custody? Half-Century Man Mar 2014 #125

well, if he got what he wanted, why was he suing and how is it that he lost? geek tragedy Mar 2014 #129

This is just the ruling being publicized. tammywammy Mar 2014 #140

just read the NJ law journal, he was asking to be declared father geek tragedy Mar 2014 #147

According to the article Half-Century Man Mar 2014 #149

Sounds to me like he is a controlling prick. Laffy Kat Mar 2014 #241

bingo. this kind of behavior leads to physical abuse in many cases nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #242

And gay marriage has been and is illegal all over joeglow3 Mar 2014 #195

Are you trying to be offensive? geek tragedy Mar 2014 #197

Was the mother contesting him as the father? joeglow3 Mar 2014 #213

Between contractions? No. nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #214

That response proves you know your argument is flawed. joeglow3 Mar 2014 #218

How so? He didn't have any right to be in that room and he certainly didn't have geek tragedy Mar 2014 #224

Prove it is detrimental joeglow3 Mar 2014 #230

Your entire argument that he was entitled to have the baby ripped away from the mother a minute geek tragedy Mar 2014 #233

That is not what I said joeglow3 Mar 2014 #237

here's what you wrote: geek tragedy Mar 2014 #240

Like I said, resort to name calling joeglow3 Mar 2014 #243

your argument has no merits. your argument is concerned with only one thing, geek tragedy Mar 2014 #246

You posted these outrageous things? Tumbulu Mar 2014 #316

Yeah. Looking for equal rights for both parents is disgusting. joeglow3 Mar 2014 #319

Your approach is so far from equal, my goodness! Tumbulu Mar 2014 #321

Can you say porn talk ten more times? joeglow3 Mar 2014 #324

Delete the creepy things that you have dared to post on DU Tumbulu Mar 2014 #326

Wow. Those hidden posts, and the ones in this thread... redqueen Mar 2014 #330

yep, this one is a Nigel Tunfel when it comes to the MRA scale geek tragedy Mar 2014 #331

Most decent fathers would support the mother in establishing breastfeeding pnwmom Mar 2014 #176

I was about to say that labor can and often does have the effect of making women in pain CTyankee Mar 2014 #86

Well, for one thing, she may want to breastfeed StatGirl Mar 2014 #52

That is not a medical procedure. joeglow3 Mar 2014 #54

The father has no right to observe this. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2014 #59

Hospitals have to run the vitals of the baby first joeglow3 Mar 2014 #66

No, he doesn't. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2014 #70

Wow. What causes such a need for attention? joeglow3 Mar 2014 #82

why don't you tell us? nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #84

I never attacked anyone personally joeglow3 Mar 2014 #85

legally, he doesn't unless he's married to the mother. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #74

No they don't. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #247

No, they don't gollygee Mar 2014 #274

Now you're just being ridiculous StatGirl Mar 2014 #81

It is quite hard to get going Tumbulu Mar 2014 #262

Read the facts of the case joeglow3 Mar 2014 #281

You must be imagining a whole heck of a lot Tumbulu Mar 2014 #302

Yes. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2014 #57

If she is a nursing mother she needs to start right away. kmlisle Mar 2014 #55

oh yeah, because the mom's milk always comes in immediately olddad56 Mar 2014 #92

There IS colostrum right away. And latching on needs to be established quickly. antigone382 Mar 2014 #168

If this is about the baby's welfare then kmlisle Mar 2014 #210

I suggest laundry_queen Mar 2014 #267

The mother MADE the baby Tumbulu Mar 2014 #259

Wow. Guess the right doesn't possess all those who don't understand science. joeglow3 Mar 2014 #279

What science do you know think shows that a man produces a baby? Tumbulu Mar 2014 #298

Can the father breastfeed the baby? pnwmom Mar 2014 #175

This is the new DU, all men are rape culture republicans Exultant Democracy Mar 2014 #180

So you think he was justified in trying to sue his way into geek tragedy Mar 2014 #191

No I agree with the poster who I responded too. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Exultant Democracy Mar 2014 #248

DU has become home to misogyny, we are in agreement. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #249

No the reverse sexism here isn't a figment of imagination. Visit the HOF forum sometime, Exultant Democracy Mar 2014 #253

look at my profile. HoF do not push anything particularly radical geek tragedy Mar 2014 #254

I don't recall MRA arguments at DU 11 years ago gollygee Mar 2014 #275

What right does a man who supplied sperm Tumbulu Mar 2014 #258

A baby needs to be held by his or her mother after birth, pnwmom Mar 2014 #101

Not immediately joeglow3 Mar 2014 #105

It is harmful. Here you go. Butterbean Mar 2014 #156

If the mother is going to try to breastfeed, the baby shouldn't be taken away pnwmom Mar 2014 #173

Most new borns do NOT want to feed happyslug Mar 2014 #202

Not my experience or the experience of my friends. They started nursing right away. kmlisle Mar 2014 #209

Mothers need the presence of a baby to stimulate the milk to come in, whether or not pnwmom Mar 2014 #231

In my 16, almost 17 years of being in the delivery room, I disagree with this. Butterbean Mar 2014 #260

Not true at ALL laundry_queen Mar 2014 #269

Both of mine did gollygee Mar 2014 #276

My son was born Cesarean, and his mother was too out of it from the anesthetic to hold him. olddad56 Mar 2014 #146

That's a completely different situation. In this case, the father would have been pnwmom Mar 2014 #234

It's customary to lay the baby on the mother's stomach for a while. Chemisse Mar 2014 #137

:sarcasm: GeorgeGist Mar 2014 #187

Is this a joke? Tumbulu Mar 2014 #257

I have had three joeglow3 Mar 2014 #283

You have given birth three times? Tumbulu Mar 2014 #305

Did I say that, or are you making more shit up? joeglow3 Mar 2014 #309

No. Most mothers are nursing babies right after birth. Ilsa Mar 2014 #270

So, in your experience nursing takes place first? joeglow3 Mar 2014 #282

You know what the procedure is. Ilsa Mar 2014 #286

I have been there as a parent and my wife is a nurse there joeglow3 Mar 2014 #287

It is her birth, her time when she is almost physically Ilsa Mar 2014 #288

So, like I said, move the baby to another room, as even you stated is standard process joeglow3 Mar 2014 #289

What, your wife doesn't care for c-section mothers? Ilsa Mar 2014 #290

There zero reason for the mother to do that other than using the child as a tool joeglow3 Mar 2014 #291

Or maybe he's a creep that she's doing her Ilsa Mar 2014 #292

She certainly didn't feel strong enough to document that in the proceedings joeglow3 Mar 2014 #293

There may have been other reasons she didnt Ilsa Mar 2014 #294

THIS is what is pathetic joeglow3 Mar 2014 #297

Yeah, make the judge's decision all about ME! Ilsa Mar 2014 #312

And judges have said gay marriage bans are fine joeglow3 Mar 2014 #313

Their very first parenting FAIL My Good Babushka Mar 2014 #72

They will all survive JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #88

Indeed - every little parenting decision is up for a fight. Chemisse Mar 2014 #138

"Any interest a father has before the child’s birth is subordinate to the mother’s interests," Drale Mar 2014 #4

Took the words right out of my mouth nt riderinthestorm Mar 2014 #8

Could. Should. Will it? Who knows. eggplant Mar 2014 #15

That is the legal basis behind Roe vs Wade. happyslug Mar 2014 #211

There you go. Ilsa Mar 2014 #271

When the father libodem Mar 2014 #7

This JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #11

. libodem Mar 2014 #17

when the mother leftyohiolib Mar 2014 #21

"Our baby our choice" geek tragedy Mar 2014 #25

My butthole literally clenched up at the thought of this. Arkana Mar 2014 #26

Cry me a river joeglow3 Mar 2014 #30

He has no rights at childbirth if they're not geek tragedy Mar 2014 #65

He has no rights until paternity is established, post-birth. nt msanthrope Mar 2014 #219

You do know babies jamzrockz Mar 2014 #48

Ever heard of the need for an episiotomy? Lars39 Mar 2014 #80

That made me spit all over my monitor liberal N proud Mar 2014 #62

"Take your bottom lip . . . Brigid Mar 2014 #107

You are trying to make me fall out of my chair liberal N proud Mar 2014 #110

"My wife stood up in the stirrups . . . Brigid Mar 2014 #120

Cosby is always a riot! liberal N proud Mar 2014 #160

I would consider it if the father could breastfeed with his own milk. n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #177

My sentiments exactly! nt Tumbulu Mar 2014 #263

You are assuming that the woman and the man are still together HockeyMom Mar 2014 #16

+1 nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #335

Duh. Not a close call legally. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #22

No it is not joeglow3 Mar 2014 #32

I don't think that both parents do have a legal right missingthebigdog Mar 2014 #56

The mother never disputed it was his kid joeglow3 Mar 2014 #58

Legally, he's the father when he signs the geek tragedy Mar 2014 #67

Exactly. missingthebigdog Mar 2014 #71

I am merely educating you on the law missingthebigdog Mar 2014 #69

Actually, no. arikara Mar 2014 #61

+1 Sweet Freedom Mar 2014 #76

yep -- seems pretty clear cut fishwax Mar 2014 #228

Very precedent-setting, Arkana Mar 2014 #24

Biological fathers have never had any authority geek tragedy Mar 2014 #28

Two people allowed in Labor and Delivery HockeyMom Mar 2014 #31

I wanted my mom to be with me. Sweet Freedom Mar 2014 #60

So did I and she was. Maybe it's a family thing,I don't think sufrommich Mar 2014 #68

I was terrified! Sweet Freedom Mar 2014 #73

Agreed. No matter how much you read up sufrommich Mar 2014 #75

I will think about it HockeyMom Mar 2014 #116

First off VA_Jill Mar 2014 #43

Rights bongiver Mar 2014 #64

because the custodial parent never pays child support. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #83

Custodial bongiver Mar 2014 #91

an unmarried mother is always the custodial parent, until a court says geek tragedy Mar 2014 #93

Custodial bongiver Mar 2014 #96

if he signs the birth certificate, he's on the hook for child support geek tragedy Mar 2014 #98

Custody bongiver Mar 2014 #99

the mother has custody until the court says otherwise nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #102

Custody bongiver Mar 2014 #112

just like pregnancy is and actually it isn't gender-biased geek tragedy Mar 2014 #114

Cunfusion bongiver Mar 2014 #117

you're confusing gender and sex, also geek tragedy Mar 2014 #118

Marines bongiver Mar 2014 #124

once the man has established paternity then there is a court system to determine geek tragedy Mar 2014 #128

Joint bongiver Mar 2014 #135

buh-bye nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #141

I wish I'd barred some people from the delivery room My Good Babushka Mar 2014 #63

I hope at least it wasn't your first child... JudyM Mar 2014 #79

Ha, I can top that. My doc stopped rotating my son giftedgirl77 Mar 2014 #87

Breach birth, no C-Section, in 1979 HockeyMom Mar 2014 #104

They didn't ask your permission? CTyankee Mar 2014 #111

No HockeyMom Mar 2014 #127

not me. I was always a badass in labor...pain did that to me... CTyankee Mar 2014 #134

I made the mistake of inviting the local DU meetup. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #143

Nurses from 2 shifts all crowded in to watch my birth. Chemisse Mar 2014 #144

Weaksauce from the mother... Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #109

yeah, how dare she insist on only having people she wants present while she's in geek tragedy Mar 2014 #119

I'm just calling it as I see it Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #122

"unless there's something I'm missing about their time together" geek tragedy Mar 2014 #123

which is my point... Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #126

if you don't know, probably best not to judge geek tragedy Mar 2014 #130

Well, one commenter from the article addresses that, PotatoChip Mar 2014 #136

Nobody is entitled to be in the delivery room arikara Mar 2014 #220

What grudge card? PotatoChip Mar 2014 #121

"weaksauce"? how many babies have you given birth to? CreekDog Mar 2014 #155

Thank you n/t VA_Jill Mar 2014 #183

You've obviously never given birth gollygee Mar 2014 #277

Sad that these things are necessary. Fearless Mar 2014 #115

In my case, I'd have preferred it if the father were present at the childbirth My Good Babushka Mar 2014 #131

you win the thread nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #132

Hahah! Chemisse Mar 2014 #145

LOL cause it's so darn true! n/t JimDandy Mar 2014 #154

Bingo! nt laundry_queen Mar 2014 #272

This should be a DUzy! Jamastiene Mar 2014 #284

This strikes me as odd. Butterbean Mar 2014 #133

it became an issue because some jerk decided to take the mother to court geek tragedy Mar 2014 #139

Ah, I see. Nasty situation. n/t Butterbean Mar 2014 #159

seems they worked out custody issues rebecca_herman Mar 2014 #184

Can't blame her there. Butterbean Mar 2014 #192

I can't believe this would even go to court. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #142

may I ask you a question? CTyankee Mar 2014 #148

I don't know, because to me there isn't even an 'argument' here. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #152

I just think that "privacy" is a buzzword for some people to mean "sex." CTyankee Mar 2014 #157

Maybe. I dont know. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #161

I like your response, Warren! CTyankee Mar 2014 #164

some clients prefer a lawyer who's stupidly aggressive geek tragedy Mar 2014 #165

And some asses are so big they don't even make hats in that size. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #166

+1000. I don't believe in hell, but if it existed I imagine geek tragedy Mar 2014 #170

Close the thread. Warren wins. nt LeftyMom Mar 2014 #216

the New Jersey Law Journal has different information geek tragedy Mar 2014 #151

Bad rationale treestar Mar 2014 #153

That's what the court said, that her interests in medical privacy geek tragedy Mar 2014 #163

It's Menz Rights Central around here! Squinch Mar 2014 #162

Right? That those arguments are being made on DU... Zenlitened Mar 2014 #186

Juries refuse to hide misogynistic comments, ergo misogynists feel welcome geek tragedy Mar 2014 #190

And they appear to be reproducing...all by themselves...like flukes... Squinch Mar 2014 #199

I've lost the ability to alert, but: geek tragedy Mar 2014 #201

I don't know what's happening. And you are right: a lot of it is very characteristic of Republican Squinch Mar 2014 #197

DU is turning into an MRA and gun humper magnet. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #261

No doubt gollygee Mar 2014 #278

A man actually fought in court to be in the delivery room? LittleBlue Mar 2014 #167

Who is the Baby Daddy ? warrant46 Mar 2014 #169

"Senator Edwards, you ARE the father of this child." nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #171

LOL-- NT warrant46 Mar 2014 #172

later in the day Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #193

Well, yeah, it's a medical procedure. Deep13 Mar 2014 #203

"Any interest a father has before the child’s birth is subordinate to the mother’s interests," Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #205

I know. The ruling is so sensible and brief. Laffy Kat Mar 2014 #239

When I was born my dad was in another room and my mom was unconscious. LeftyMom Mar 2014 #221

I agree with the ruling. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #225

I wouldn't want a man staring at my @#$^)*& or me while I'm popping out a baby nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #235

heh...but what if you have a male doctor? penultimate Mar 2014 #333

I don't want a male gyn or obstetrician. I never understood why a man would want to be a gyn Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #334

I'm glad the judge was guided by the baby's best interest, pnwmom Mar 2014 #264

None of my ex-boyfriends were invited to be in my Ilsa Mar 2014 #273

No SHIT!!!! HockeyMom Mar 2014 #328

Vaginal breach birth HockeyMom Mar 2014 #329

Can't really argue with this at all... penultimate Mar 2014 #332