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In reply to the discussion: Have you ever heard anyone ever give a single 'coherent' reason to be against marriage equality? [View all]RainDog
(28,784 posts)49. actually, that's not the case
http://anthropologist.livejournal.com/1314574.html
so, it looks like the evidence comes from multiple sources in different parts of the world. Yes, there are illustrations that were contemporary with events, but also church documents and church histories from every part of early Christendom.
censorship has been practiced regarding religious history for as long as there have been religions. I didn't know about these before now, but it doesn't surprise me at all considering the dominant cultures of the time and place.
Then there's also the idea of "third gender" among other societies - including Native Americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender
Two males could be partnered but one of them assumed GENDER role expectations - not the physiology of the opposite sex.
My digression into property, patriarchy and all that was really more about gendered expectations in patriarchy, not really about opposite sexes uniting in marriage. oops.
Prof. John Boswell, the late Chairman of Yale Universitys history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the "Office of Same-Sex Union" (10th and 11th century), and the "Order for Uniting Two Men" (11th and 12th century).
In the definitive 10th century account of their lives, St. Sergius is openly celebrated as the "sweet companion and lover" of St. Bacchus. Sergius and Bacchus's close relationship has led many modern scholars to believe they were lovers. But the most compelling evidence for this view is that the oldest text of their martyrology, written in New Testament Greek describes them as "erastai, or "lovers". In other words, they were a male homosexual couple. Their orientation and relationship was not only acknowledged, but it was fully accepted and celebrated by the early Christian church, which was far more tolerant than it is today.
Prof. John Boswell, the late Chairman of Yale Universitys history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the "Office of Same-Sex Union" (10th and 11th century), and the "Order for Uniting Two Men" (11th and 12th century).
These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiated in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John.
Such same gender Christian sanctified unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12thand/ early 13th century, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (Geraldus Cambrensis) recorded.
Records of Christian same sex unions have been discovered in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St. Petersburg, in Paris, in Istanbul and in the Sinai, covering a thousand-years from the 8th to the 18th century.
The Dominican missionary and Prior, Jacques Goar (1601-1653), includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek Orthodox prayer books, Euchologion Sive Rituale Graecorum Complectens Ritus Et Ordines Divinae Liturgiae (Paris, 1667).
In the definitive 10th century account of their lives, St. Sergius is openly celebrated as the "sweet companion and lover" of St. Bacchus. Sergius and Bacchus's close relationship has led many modern scholars to believe they were lovers. But the most compelling evidence for this view is that the oldest text of their martyrology, written in New Testament Greek describes them as "erastai, or "lovers". In other words, they were a male homosexual couple. Their orientation and relationship was not only acknowledged, but it was fully accepted and celebrated by the early Christian church, which was far more tolerant than it is today.
Prof. John Boswell, the late Chairman of Yale Universitys history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the "Office of Same-Sex Union" (10th and 11th century), and the "Order for Uniting Two Men" (11th and 12th century).
These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiated in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John.
Such same gender Christian sanctified unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12thand/ early 13th century, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (Geraldus Cambrensis) recorded.
Records of Christian same sex unions have been discovered in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St. Petersburg, in Paris, in Istanbul and in the Sinai, covering a thousand-years from the 8th to the 18th century.
The Dominican missionary and Prior, Jacques Goar (1601-1653), includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek Orthodox prayer books, Euchologion Sive Rituale Graecorum Complectens Ritus Et Ordines Divinae Liturgiae (Paris, 1667).
so, it looks like the evidence comes from multiple sources in different parts of the world. Yes, there are illustrations that were contemporary with events, but also church documents and church histories from every part of early Christendom.
censorship has been practiced regarding religious history for as long as there have been religions. I didn't know about these before now, but it doesn't surprise me at all considering the dominant cultures of the time and place.
Then there's also the idea of "third gender" among other societies - including Native Americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender
Two males could be partnered but one of them assumed GENDER role expectations - not the physiology of the opposite sex.
My digression into property, patriarchy and all that was really more about gendered expectations in patriarchy, not really about opposite sexes uniting in marriage. oops.
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Have you ever heard anyone ever give a single 'coherent' reason to be against marriage equality? [View all]
NNN0LHI
May 2012
OP
No, Sir: And If they Meant It About 'Preserving Marriage' They Would Be Crusading Against Divorce...
The Magistrate
May 2012
#1
And many a battle against those -- divorce and adultery -- has been fought and lost.
JDPriestly
May 2012
#36
Hell, I have a pretty good imagination and I can't even THINK of one. I've certainly ...
11 Bravo
May 2012
#2
Of Course. Any person that owns a co. that will have to pony up health care, retirement, etc.
WingDinger
May 2012
#3
Not so with Social Security, which is all the retirement $ most folks will ever see.
kestrel91316
May 2012
#16
that's not a "cogent" argument (as the OP asked)...it's an argument that denying civil rights saves
CreekDog
May 2012
#28
I've never heard a single rational argument about why marriage equality may be detrimental to ANYONE
kestrel91316
May 2012
#17
In fact, as I have posted in the past, the word "marriage" has two meanings.
JDPriestly
May 2012
#38
No. All the arguments start from the false premise that homosexuality is an abomination.
aikoaiko
May 2012
#24
That is because in primitive societies and earlier ages, society feared underpopulation.
JDPriestly
May 2012
#40
I heard Rush Limbaugh talking about it interfering with his ability to get married every couple of
madinmaryland
May 2012
#32
yes " I don't want to do ritual you straight people do" said one of my childhood friends, He said it
mulsh
May 2012
#34