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Response to d_r (Reply #115)

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Richard Dawkins: bigoted against those with Down's syndrome? [View all] alp227 Aug 2014 OP

Actually, that's Dawkins on fetuses with Down's Syndrome REP Aug 2014 #1

The title is based on this twitter exchange by Richard Dawkins. alp227 Aug 2014 #2

The context is to smear atheists. Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #6

Well it isn't difficult to AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #30

That statement had nothing to do with atheism phil89 Aug 2014 #40

LMAO AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #44

For me it only means not giving a shit. Neoma Aug 2014 #52

So you say it's not possible to have no faith? immoderate Aug 2014 #59

the absence of faith is possible AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #67

Under what banner should we expect to find it then? immoderate Aug 2014 #72

In situations that don't require faith AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #75

Atheism doesn't require faith Marrah_G Aug 2014 #78

And his belief is tempered by faith AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #171

That does not require faith Marrah_G Aug 2014 #178

What situations require faith? Marrah_G Aug 2014 #80

Faith in what? Why do the religious keep trying to force faith on the nonreligious. Luminous Animal Aug 2014 #82

And it requires AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #172

Not believing in the existence of dieties does not require faith Marrah_G Aug 2014 #181

Ok we will just agree to disagree AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #182

Yeah. Just like not believing in Santa Clause requires faith. Luminous Animal Aug 2014 #188

No more and less interesting that hearing someone alternating between... LanternWaste Aug 2014 #203

FAITH?? alp227 Aug 2014 #99

This message was self-deleted by its author alp227 Aug 2014 #99

This message was self-deleted by its author alp227 Aug 2014 #101

No it doesn't. Iggo Aug 2014 #107

This is an attempt that is always done to bring atheism on par with religion snooper2 Aug 2014 #120

No tricks AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #174

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me War Horse Aug 2014 #238

So you require faith to NOT believe in Santa, unicorns, and the power of Thor? Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #136

There is no proof that some type of God does not exist FrodosPet Aug 2014 #179

I would say agnosticism is the former and atheism is the latter ... Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #230

Analyst will never answer that question MattBaggins Aug 2014 #219

That makes no sense Marrah_G Aug 2014 #77

Apparently, their is faith in not having faith. Looking forward to people here making a credible Luminous Animal Aug 2014 #84

I'm sorry you are so bound to your dogma. defacto7 Aug 2014 #89

By that logic, baldness is a hair style n/t eridani Aug 2014 #95

Tell me, where is this dogma written down? Warpy Aug 2014 #97

I'm not an atheist but this attempt to label them as having a religious belief system is silly. stevenleser Aug 2014 #138

I think his point is to say a certain degree of atheism is attended by dogmatism and zeal. nt Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2014 #161

I'll buy the zeal part. Atheism is built on science so, to say it is dogmatic is the opposite of the stevenleser Aug 2014 #162

Atheism is founded on a belief system AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #173

No, it is not and no it does not. See my #162 above. stevenleser Aug 2014 #200

To be fair though, religion does influence lots of "pro-life" ideology, alp227 Aug 2014 #87

No; it's pure click bait and terrible journalism REP Aug 2014 #7

'people associate secular thought with lack of morality.' Rex Aug 2014 #3

Lying and calling a fetus a baby is oh so moral REP Aug 2014 #9

Well, he changed it to make his distortion more clear in a different way..... Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #12

More click-bait words REP Aug 2014 #16

He's a dick but that's sensible advice. LeftyMom Aug 2014 #4

I'm about as pro-choice as they come, but unless a condition's bad enough to merit hospice care.... moriah Aug 2014 #17

That's an irrational argument Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #18

The poster, and Dawkins, are suggesting it's cruel to have a child with DS instead of aborting .... moriah Aug 2014 #23

It IS cruel to have a child with a lifelong disability... Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #24

So it's better to kill it instead, if you do it early enough? moriah Aug 2014 #27

Not being born is not the same as "killing". Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #28

You're trying to denigrate choice by saying it's cruel for women to choose to have their... moriah Aug 2014 #33

You don't sound very pro-choice. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #34

No, it's still a life. But just because it's a life doesn't mean it's sacrosanct, any more than.... moriah Aug 2014 #37

It isn't a life. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #38

You're the one trying to dance around saying that not all life is sacred. It isn't, and I'm not... moriah Aug 2014 #41

80% of women who have a Down syndrome pregnancy in the US choose to terminate. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #47

It's their choice. It's not the choice I would make, personally. moriah Aug 2014 #49

There is no way to predict level of physical or intellectual disability through testing for DS REP Aug 2014 #53

More are now that they aren't simply shuttled into institutions. moriah Aug 2014 #65

life doesn't start until the baby can live outside the womb on it's own snooper2 Aug 2014 #122

So women who miscarry and grieve the loss are drama queens. moriah Aug 2014 #154

It's not really my place to say- snooper2 Aug 2014 #156

Yes, a fetus/embryo/zygote dies in an abortion - not a baby, child, or person REP Aug 2014 #39

Back off, I said I never would judge a person for choosing abortion in that case. moriah Aug 2014 #43

I don't see anyone telling anyone to have an abortion. You back off. REP Aug 2014 #50

And I wasn't saying anything against abortion, yet you acted like I was. moriah Aug 2014 #68

DS screening is NOT eugenics pokerfan Aug 2014 #180

That's funny because d_r Aug 2014 #185

I'm not saying it pokerfan Aug 2014 #187

your statement about the term "eugenics" d_r Aug 2014 #189

95% of the time it is random pokerfan Aug 2014 #190

you too nt d_r Aug 2014 #192

You're making the same mistake pro-lifers make, equating screening/diagnosis with a decision, but .. moriah Aug 2014 #191

Choice is choice. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #177

So the people who preach about abortion being murder.... moriah Aug 2014 #198

Correct - they're not trying to denigrate choice itself. They're trying to denigrate Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #199

No one is saying someone has to Marrah_G Aug 2014 #81

And I'm of the opinion that the only opinion that matters is the mother's... moriah Aug 2014 #90

I agree that the only opinion that should matter is the mothers. Marrah_G Aug 2014 #91

I Am Pro Abortion LeftOfWest Aug 2014 #113

So you're pro-telling other women when to have abortions? moriah Aug 2014 #123

i am also pro-abortion for every/any pregnant woman who wants one. Scout Aug 2014 #165

If you think it's an *easy* choice, you've not had one. moriah Aug 2014 #170

apparently you don't read very well. Scout Aug 2014 #205

It's a good thing, then, that Dawkin's opinion doesn't matter. Mariana Aug 2014 #211

Are you pro-choice or not? Hugabear Aug 2014 #128

The point of my question is that the ONLY person who can answer those questions.... moriah Aug 2014 #133

You're the one saying that it's still a life Hugabear Aug 2014 #140

I disagree. It may not be murder, but the fetus still dies. moriah Aug 2014 #148

"to have a child with a lifelong disability" alp227 Aug 2014 #106

so what disabilities are "OK" d_r Aug 2014 #186

that's a really tough one. you have the guy who played Corky from the old show Life Goes On, who is dionysus Aug 2014 #93

Yes, YarnAddict Aug 2014 #183

if people do, and have the adequate means to care for the child, i give them the utmost respect. dionysus Aug 2014 #240

No, you're just categorically saying the disabled shouldn't be born in the first place. sir pball Aug 2014 #142

So, do you think it's moral or ethical to have a child you know will have a chromosomal disorder? Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #144

It's not my decision to make that choice for another person. Full stop, end of story. sir pball Aug 2014 #146

It isn't about saving resources, or "useless eaters" Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #147

I'm just asking for a little intellectual honesty - I won't ever agree with your position sir pball Aug 2014 #151

Is eliminating debilitating chromosomal disorders a bad thing, then? Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #158

"However I don't see a moral argument for having a child..." Scout Aug 2014 #166

Being fat and being severely disabled with multiple congenital conditions are very different things. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #169

yes i know that. did you think i didn't? did you bother to read what i wrote? n/t Scout Aug 2014 #204

Existential angst and bad television aside, that's irresponsible advice. nt LeftyMom Aug 2014 #29

People routinely abort fetuses shown to have Down Syndrome gollygee Aug 2014 #149

And each case varies widely, which is why the choices are made by the woman... moriah Aug 2014 #152

Well that's just his opinion gollygee Aug 2014 #153

I think it's mainly right to lifers ozone_man Aug 2014 #196

Right, and will take so much of a family's time and resources Warpy Aug 2014 #98

So should parents abort all imperfect fetuses, then? Even very fixable ones, like the heart defects pnwmom Aug 2014 #214

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. LeftyMom Aug 2014 #222

As someone with the most common digestive disease associated with Down's -- Celiac disease -- pnwmom Aug 2014 #223

Nobody's pressuring. People are expressing opinions. LeftyMom Aug 2014 #228

Nice try. Babies can not be aborted.....complete distortion...another jury decision... Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #5

OK, edited title. nt alp227 Aug 2014 #8

Sure, much better with a Fox News question mark...now totally unrelated to actual title.... Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #11

yes, a fetus is not a baby. ohnoyoudidnt Aug 2014 #60

The facts are LynnTTT Aug 2014 #10

That means that 8% of women ... stone space Aug 2014 #70

Pro-choice is pro-choice. End of story. Hugabear Aug 2014 #13

Exactly. Dawkins in no way suggested Mariana Aug 2014 #213

I think your title is absurd, honestly Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #14

Well, Tay-Sachs is about 100% fatal REP Aug 2014 #19

I don't know of any family that has knowingly brought a child with Tay Sachs into the world Marrah_G Aug 2014 #83

In reply to your edit: No REP Aug 2014 #15

Not to mention the impact it has on family, especially siblings. nt kelliekat44 Aug 2014 #31

No. 951-Riverside Aug 2014 #20

How does he feel about this man who's been physically disabled for 50 years? freshwest Aug 2014 #21

Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #26

He's suffered with it for 50 years and is 71. And you are way out of line about RW talking points. freshwest Aug 2014 #51

I doubt very much you know anyone like Stephen Hawking REP Aug 2014 #35

Sorry, but since I go and visit such people and advocate for them, your doubt is wrong. freshwest Aug 2014 #45

There is only one person on earth like Stephen Hawking: Stephen Hawking REP Aug 2014 #57

You are wrong in all that you say about me. freshwest Aug 2014 #62

Thanks for speaking up about this. thucythucy Aug 2014 #73

Thank you very much, thucythucy. Yes it's disappointing to see those would use us for an agenda. freshwest Aug 2014 #76

Dignity. sheshe2 Aug 2014 #88

:) freshwest Aug 2014 #92

kudos! Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #124

We should abort him bigwillq Aug 2014 #46

It beats being bigoted against women who choose to abort LadyHawkAZ Aug 2014 #22

Sounds like he's bigoted against women who choose NOT to abort. Crunchy Frog Aug 2014 #42

Please. Dawkins is *NOT* a philosopher. Jim__ Aug 2014 #25

I wonder what the 1% do? yortsed snacilbuper Aug 2014 #32

He's really kind of a dick overall. n/t Crunchy Frog Aug 2014 #36

People don't associate secular thought with lack of morality because of Dawkins.... MellowDem Aug 2014 #48

"The root problem is religion" yortsed snacilbuper Aug 2014 #55

Sounds more pro-abortion than pro-choice bluestateguy Aug 2014 #54

I think he's wrong only in the sense that it is an individual's choice. alarimer Aug 2014 #56

so you all support abortion rights except if the mother learns that her child would have down's Warren Stupidity Aug 2014 #58

That's what I'm taking from this... immoderate Aug 2014 #63

Women should ALWAYS have the choice, alp227 Aug 2014 #108

Suggesting that abortion should be the only good choice is anti-choice loyalsister Aug 2014 #61

How about *suggesting* that it's the better or best choice of many, from one that seeks an opinion? immoderate Aug 2014 #64

I don't think that is the case here loyalsister Aug 2014 #79

It's not anti-choice to express an opinion Mariana Aug 2014 #109

How are these opinions different? loyalsister Aug 2014 #143

Nope... MellowDem Aug 2014 #193

That's a different discussion loyalsister Aug 2014 #195

Between what two statements? MellowDem Aug 2014 #210

These loyalsister Aug 2014 #216

Opposing something on moral grounds isn't anti-choice... MellowDem Aug 2014 #218

Judging a woman's decisions loyalsister Aug 2014 #221

Well if they think their views should be enforced... MellowDem Aug 2014 #231

Policy positions start with opinions loyalsister Aug 2014 #232

Yes, I think he would disagree... MellowDem Aug 2014 #233

It doesn't change the fact that it is an anti-choice statement loyalsister Aug 2014 #234

It is... MellowDem Aug 2014 #235

We aren't going to agree on this loyalsister Aug 2014 #236

I think in the situation you described... MellowDem Aug 2014 #237

Thank you! Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #125

Just Irish nationalist bs. betterdemsonly Aug 2014 #66

??? Dawkins is not Irish. Nt alp227 Aug 2014 #110

The person he was responding to was betterdemsonly Aug 2014 #114

sounds like the third reich: "beasts in human form" GusBob Aug 2014 #69

It's not Godwin's Law if it's a legitimate issue that relates to the NSDAP. sir pball Aug 2014 #145

Are the women who abort DS fetuses Nazis? Mariana Aug 2014 #215

I'm sorry d_r Aug 2014 #71

Thanks, d_r. You speak for me and those I know. Yes, very valuable. freshwest Aug 2014 #85

Dawkins never advocated eugenics. Iron Man Aug 2014 #96

Yeah I did d_r Aug 2014 #115

Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #119

It would be immoral d_r Aug 2014 #137

I have no problems if a woman chooses to abort Iron Man Aug 2014 #139

I don't d_r Aug 2014 #141

According to you... MellowDem Aug 2014 #194

got that wrong pal d_r Aug 2014 #197

So all women who abort DS MellowDem Aug 2014 #209

I will try again d_r Aug 2014 #212

No, I understand it perfectly... MellowDem Aug 2014 #217

Again. d_r Aug 2014 #225

Yes you are equating race to a very serious disability. Boudica the Lyoness Aug 2014 #220

no, I didn't compare people with DS to black children d_r Aug 2014 #224

I would abort, with out hesitation, Boudica the Lyoness Aug 2014 #227

please do d_r Aug 2014 #229

it's not just the callousness, it's the attitude that it's a done deal--like a triangle adding up to MisterP Aug 2014 #74

Agreed Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #126

"this is why people associate secular thought with lack of morality" -- give me a fucking break! Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #86

Eeyup hifiguy Aug 2014 #160

I don't see anything wrong with what Dawkins said. Iron Man Aug 2014 #94

He said nothing wrong. Mariana Aug 2014 #111

You're absolutely right. Iron Man Aug 2014 #118

"I'd strongly encourage her to abort it." alp227 Aug 2014 #112

I know a kid that is happy every day of his life d_r Aug 2014 #116

It would be a burden on the parents. Iron Man Aug 2014 #121

Holy cow. d_r Aug 2014 #129

Those links aren't going to change my mind on this issue. Iron Man Aug 2014 #130

Then be honest about it YarnAddict Aug 2014 #201

UGH. That bigoted post got kept, thanks to ONE juror. alp227 Aug 2014 #175

for the record d_r Aug 2014 #184

It's not eugenics when it comes to abortion. Iron Man Aug 2014 #117

It is eugenics d_r Aug 2014 #131

The discussion is abortion. Iron Man Aug 2014 #132

The discussion is Down Syndrome d_r Aug 2014 #134

I'm sorry d_r Aug 2014 #135

I just answered another newer thread on this - JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #127

Someone asked him for his opinion and he gave it gollygee Aug 2014 #150

People should be free to choose get the red out Aug 2014 #155

Wow, a shitload of anti-choice trolls here today, isn't that just peachy! Humanist_Activist Aug 2014 #157

"UGH. this is why people associate secular thought with lack of morality."? Grow up, mr blur Aug 2014 #159

i would probably terminate such a pregnancy. Scout Aug 2014 #163

You typed a question mark instead of a period after the sentence by mistake. KamaAina Aug 2014 #164

I think pro-choice goes both ways... LeftishBrit Aug 2014 #167

I agree with him n/t PasadenaTrudy Aug 2014 #168

And.... Manifestor_of_Light Aug 2014 #176

Creepy thinking bordering on eugenics. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #202

This is the man's personal opinion Bettie Aug 2014 #206

So? Some opinions are reprehensible. alp227 Aug 2014 #207

But to declare that his opinion is the sole reason why religious types Bettie Aug 2014 #208

He should go back to science and forget about social commentary. hrmjustin Aug 2014 #226

I don't know about "immoral" but... pipi_k Aug 2014 #239