General Discussion

d_r

(6,907 posts)

115. Yeah I did

Thu Aug 21, 2014, 07:23 AM

Aug 2014

and I don't see how it isn't.

He said "It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice."

"People on that spectrum have a great deal to contribute, Maybe even an enhanced ability in some respects. DS not enhanced."

He is saying that people with Down Syndrome have nothing to contribute to the world and it would be immoral to allow them to be born.

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Richard Dawkins: bigoted against those with Down's syndrome? [View all] alp227 Aug 2014 OP

Actually, that's Dawkins on fetuses with Down's Syndrome REP Aug 2014 #1

The title is based on this twitter exchange by Richard Dawkins. alp227 Aug 2014 #2

The context is to smear atheists. Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #6

Well it isn't difficult to AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #30

That statement had nothing to do with atheism phil89 Aug 2014 #40

LMAO AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #44

For me it only means not giving a shit. Neoma Aug 2014 #52

So you say it's not possible to have no faith? immoderate Aug 2014 #59

the absence of faith is possible AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #67

Under what banner should we expect to find it then? immoderate Aug 2014 #72

In situations that don't require faith AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #75

Atheism doesn't require faith Marrah_G Aug 2014 #78

And his belief is tempered by faith AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #171

That does not require faith Marrah_G Aug 2014 #178

What situations require faith? Marrah_G Aug 2014 #80

Faith in what? Why do the religious keep trying to force faith on the nonreligious. Luminous Animal Aug 2014 #82

And it requires AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #172

Not believing in the existence of dieties does not require faith Marrah_G Aug 2014 #181

Ok we will just agree to disagree AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #182

Yeah. Just like not believing in Santa Clause requires faith. Luminous Animal Aug 2014 #188

No more and less interesting that hearing someone alternating between... LanternWaste Aug 2014 #203

FAITH?? alp227 Aug 2014 #99

This message was self-deleted by its author alp227 Aug 2014 #99

This message was self-deleted by its author alp227 Aug 2014 #101

No it doesn't. Iggo Aug 2014 #107

This is an attempt that is always done to bring atheism on par with religion snooper2 Aug 2014 #120

No tricks AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #174

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me War Horse Aug 2014 #238

So you require faith to NOT believe in Santa, unicorns, and the power of Thor? Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #136

There is no proof that some type of God does not exist FrodosPet Aug 2014 #179

I would say agnosticism is the former and atheism is the latter ... Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #230

Analyst will never answer that question MattBaggins Aug 2014 #219

That makes no sense Marrah_G Aug 2014 #77

Apparently, their is faith in not having faith. Looking forward to people here making a credible Luminous Animal Aug 2014 #84

I'm sorry you are so bound to your dogma. defacto7 Aug 2014 #89

By that logic, baldness is a hair style n/t eridani Aug 2014 #95

Tell me, where is this dogma written down? Warpy Aug 2014 #97

I'm not an atheist but this attempt to label them as having a religious belief system is silly. stevenleser Aug 2014 #138

I think his point is to say a certain degree of atheism is attended by dogmatism and zeal. nt Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2014 #161

I'll buy the zeal part. Atheism is built on science so, to say it is dogmatic is the opposite of the stevenleser Aug 2014 #162

Atheism is founded on a belief system AnalystInParadise Aug 2014 #173

No, it is not and no it does not. See my #162 above. stevenleser Aug 2014 #200

To be fair though, religion does influence lots of "pro-life" ideology, alp227 Aug 2014 #87

No; it's pure click bait and terrible journalism REP Aug 2014 #7

'people associate secular thought with lack of morality.' Rex Aug 2014 #3

Lying and calling a fetus a baby is oh so moral REP Aug 2014 #9

Well, he changed it to make his distortion more clear in a different way..... Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #12

More click-bait words REP Aug 2014 #16

He's a dick but that's sensible advice. LeftyMom Aug 2014 #4

I'm about as pro-choice as they come, but unless a condition's bad enough to merit hospice care.... moriah Aug 2014 #17

That's an irrational argument Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #18

The poster, and Dawkins, are suggesting it's cruel to have a child with DS instead of aborting .... moriah Aug 2014 #23

It IS cruel to have a child with a lifelong disability... Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #24

So it's better to kill it instead, if you do it early enough? moriah Aug 2014 #27

Not being born is not the same as "killing". Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #28

You're trying to denigrate choice by saying it's cruel for women to choose to have their... moriah Aug 2014 #33

You don't sound very pro-choice. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #34

No, it's still a life. But just because it's a life doesn't mean it's sacrosanct, any more than.... moriah Aug 2014 #37

It isn't a life. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #38

You're the one trying to dance around saying that not all life is sacred. It isn't, and I'm not... moriah Aug 2014 #41

80% of women who have a Down syndrome pregnancy in the US choose to terminate. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #47

It's their choice. It's not the choice I would make, personally. moriah Aug 2014 #49

There is no way to predict level of physical or intellectual disability through testing for DS REP Aug 2014 #53

More are now that they aren't simply shuttled into institutions. moriah Aug 2014 #65

life doesn't start until the baby can live outside the womb on it's own snooper2 Aug 2014 #122

So women who miscarry and grieve the loss are drama queens. moriah Aug 2014 #154

It's not really my place to say- snooper2 Aug 2014 #156

Yes, a fetus/embryo/zygote dies in an abortion - not a baby, child, or person REP Aug 2014 #39

Back off, I said I never would judge a person for choosing abortion in that case. moriah Aug 2014 #43

I don't see anyone telling anyone to have an abortion. You back off. REP Aug 2014 #50

And I wasn't saying anything against abortion, yet you acted like I was. moriah Aug 2014 #68

DS screening is NOT eugenics pokerfan Aug 2014 #180

That's funny because d_r Aug 2014 #185

I'm not saying it pokerfan Aug 2014 #187

your statement about the term "eugenics" d_r Aug 2014 #189

95% of the time it is random pokerfan Aug 2014 #190

you too nt d_r Aug 2014 #192

You're making the same mistake pro-lifers make, equating screening/diagnosis with a decision, but .. moriah Aug 2014 #191

Choice is choice. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #177

So the people who preach about abortion being murder.... moriah Aug 2014 #198

Correct - they're not trying to denigrate choice itself. They're trying to denigrate Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #199

No one is saying someone has to Marrah_G Aug 2014 #81

And I'm of the opinion that the only opinion that matters is the mother's... moriah Aug 2014 #90

I agree that the only opinion that should matter is the mothers. Marrah_G Aug 2014 #91

I Am Pro Abortion LeftOfWest Aug 2014 #113

So you're pro-telling other women when to have abortions? moriah Aug 2014 #123

i am also pro-abortion for every/any pregnant woman who wants one. Scout Aug 2014 #165

If you think it's an *easy* choice, you've not had one. moriah Aug 2014 #170

apparently you don't read very well. Scout Aug 2014 #205

It's a good thing, then, that Dawkin's opinion doesn't matter. Mariana Aug 2014 #211

Are you pro-choice or not? Hugabear Aug 2014 #128

The point of my question is that the ONLY person who can answer those questions.... moriah Aug 2014 #133

You're the one saying that it's still a life Hugabear Aug 2014 #140

I disagree. It may not be murder, but the fetus still dies. moriah Aug 2014 #148

"to have a child with a lifelong disability" alp227 Aug 2014 #106

so what disabilities are "OK" d_r Aug 2014 #186

that's a really tough one. you have the guy who played Corky from the old show Life Goes On, who is dionysus Aug 2014 #93

Yes, YarnAddict Aug 2014 #183

if people do, and have the adequate means to care for the child, i give them the utmost respect. dionysus Aug 2014 #240

No, you're just categorically saying the disabled shouldn't be born in the first place. sir pball Aug 2014 #142

So, do you think it's moral or ethical to have a child you know will have a chromosomal disorder? Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #144

It's not my decision to make that choice for another person. Full stop, end of story. sir pball Aug 2014 #146

It isn't about saving resources, or "useless eaters" Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #147

I'm just asking for a little intellectual honesty - I won't ever agree with your position sir pball Aug 2014 #151

Is eliminating debilitating chromosomal disorders a bad thing, then? Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #158

"However I don't see a moral argument for having a child..." Scout Aug 2014 #166

Being fat and being severely disabled with multiple congenital conditions are very different things. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #169

yes i know that. did you think i didn't? did you bother to read what i wrote? n/t Scout Aug 2014 #204

Existential angst and bad television aside, that's irresponsible advice. nt LeftyMom Aug 2014 #29

People routinely abort fetuses shown to have Down Syndrome gollygee Aug 2014 #149

And each case varies widely, which is why the choices are made by the woman... moriah Aug 2014 #152

Well that's just his opinion gollygee Aug 2014 #153

I think it's mainly right to lifers ozone_man Aug 2014 #196

Right, and will take so much of a family's time and resources Warpy Aug 2014 #98

So should parents abort all imperfect fetuses, then? Even very fixable ones, like the heart defects pnwmom Aug 2014 #214

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. LeftyMom Aug 2014 #222

As someone with the most common digestive disease associated with Down's -- Celiac disease -- pnwmom Aug 2014 #223

Nobody's pressuring. People are expressing opinions. LeftyMom Aug 2014 #228

Nice try. Babies can not be aborted.....complete distortion...another jury decision... Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #5

OK, edited title. nt alp227 Aug 2014 #8

Sure, much better with a Fox News question mark...now totally unrelated to actual title.... Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #11

yes, a fetus is not a baby. ohnoyoudidnt Aug 2014 #60

The facts are LynnTTT Aug 2014 #10

That means that 8% of women ... stone space Aug 2014 #70

Pro-choice is pro-choice. End of story. Hugabear Aug 2014 #13

Exactly. Dawkins in no way suggested Mariana Aug 2014 #213

I think your title is absurd, honestly Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #14

Well, Tay-Sachs is about 100% fatal REP Aug 2014 #19

I don't know of any family that has knowingly brought a child with Tay Sachs into the world Marrah_G Aug 2014 #83

In reply to your edit: No REP Aug 2014 #15

Not to mention the impact it has on family, especially siblings. nt kelliekat44 Aug 2014 #31

No. 951-Riverside Aug 2014 #20

How does he feel about this man who's been physically disabled for 50 years? freshwest Aug 2014 #21

Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #26

He's suffered with it for 50 years and is 71. And you are way out of line about RW talking points. freshwest Aug 2014 #51

I doubt very much you know anyone like Stephen Hawking REP Aug 2014 #35

Sorry, but since I go and visit such people and advocate for them, your doubt is wrong. freshwest Aug 2014 #45

There is only one person on earth like Stephen Hawking: Stephen Hawking REP Aug 2014 #57

You are wrong in all that you say about me. freshwest Aug 2014 #62

Thanks for speaking up about this. thucythucy Aug 2014 #73

Thank you very much, thucythucy. Yes it's disappointing to see those would use us for an agenda. freshwest Aug 2014 #76

Dignity. sheshe2 Aug 2014 #88

:) freshwest Aug 2014 #92

kudos! Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #124

We should abort him bigwillq Aug 2014 #46

It beats being bigoted against women who choose to abort LadyHawkAZ Aug 2014 #22

Sounds like he's bigoted against women who choose NOT to abort. Crunchy Frog Aug 2014 #42

Please. Dawkins is *NOT* a philosopher. Jim__ Aug 2014 #25

I wonder what the 1% do? yortsed snacilbuper Aug 2014 #32

He's really kind of a dick overall. n/t Crunchy Frog Aug 2014 #36

People don't associate secular thought with lack of morality because of Dawkins.... MellowDem Aug 2014 #48

"The root problem is religion" yortsed snacilbuper Aug 2014 #55

Sounds more pro-abortion than pro-choice bluestateguy Aug 2014 #54

I think he's wrong only in the sense that it is an individual's choice. alarimer Aug 2014 #56

so you all support abortion rights except if the mother learns that her child would have down's Warren Stupidity Aug 2014 #58

That's what I'm taking from this... immoderate Aug 2014 #63

Women should ALWAYS have the choice, alp227 Aug 2014 #108

Suggesting that abortion should be the only good choice is anti-choice loyalsister Aug 2014 #61

How about *suggesting* that it's the better or best choice of many, from one that seeks an opinion? immoderate Aug 2014 #64

I don't think that is the case here loyalsister Aug 2014 #79

It's not anti-choice to express an opinion Mariana Aug 2014 #109

How are these opinions different? loyalsister Aug 2014 #143

Nope... MellowDem Aug 2014 #193

That's a different discussion loyalsister Aug 2014 #195

Between what two statements? MellowDem Aug 2014 #210

These loyalsister Aug 2014 #216

Opposing something on moral grounds isn't anti-choice... MellowDem Aug 2014 #218

Judging a woman's decisions loyalsister Aug 2014 #221

Well if they think their views should be enforced... MellowDem Aug 2014 #231

Policy positions start with opinions loyalsister Aug 2014 #232

Yes, I think he would disagree... MellowDem Aug 2014 #233

It doesn't change the fact that it is an anti-choice statement loyalsister Aug 2014 #234

It is... MellowDem Aug 2014 #235

We aren't going to agree on this loyalsister Aug 2014 #236

I think in the situation you described... MellowDem Aug 2014 #237

Thank you! Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #125

Just Irish nationalist bs. betterdemsonly Aug 2014 #66

??? Dawkins is not Irish. Nt alp227 Aug 2014 #110

The person he was responding to was betterdemsonly Aug 2014 #114

sounds like the third reich: "beasts in human form" GusBob Aug 2014 #69

It's not Godwin's Law if it's a legitimate issue that relates to the NSDAP. sir pball Aug 2014 #145

Are the women who abort DS fetuses Nazis? Mariana Aug 2014 #215

I'm sorry d_r Aug 2014 #71

Thanks, d_r. You speak for me and those I know. Yes, very valuable. freshwest Aug 2014 #85

Dawkins never advocated eugenics. Iron Man Aug 2014 #96

Yeah I did d_r Aug 2014 #115

Post removed Post removed Aug 2014 #119

It would be immoral d_r Aug 2014 #137

I have no problems if a woman chooses to abort Iron Man Aug 2014 #139

I don't d_r Aug 2014 #141

According to you... MellowDem Aug 2014 #194

got that wrong pal d_r Aug 2014 #197

So all women who abort DS MellowDem Aug 2014 #209

I will try again d_r Aug 2014 #212

No, I understand it perfectly... MellowDem Aug 2014 #217

Again. d_r Aug 2014 #225

Yes you are equating race to a very serious disability. Boudica the Lyoness Aug 2014 #220

no, I didn't compare people with DS to black children d_r Aug 2014 #224

I would abort, with out hesitation, Boudica the Lyoness Aug 2014 #227

please do d_r Aug 2014 #229

it's not just the callousness, it's the attitude that it's a done deal--like a triangle adding up to MisterP Aug 2014 #74

Agreed Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #126

"this is why people associate secular thought with lack of morality" -- give me a fucking break! Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #86

Eeyup hifiguy Aug 2014 #160

I don't see anything wrong with what Dawkins said. Iron Man Aug 2014 #94

He said nothing wrong. Mariana Aug 2014 #111

You're absolutely right. Iron Man Aug 2014 #118

"I'd strongly encourage her to abort it." alp227 Aug 2014 #112

I know a kid that is happy every day of his life d_r Aug 2014 #116

It would be a burden on the parents. Iron Man Aug 2014 #121

Holy cow. d_r Aug 2014 #129

Those links aren't going to change my mind on this issue. Iron Man Aug 2014 #130

Then be honest about it YarnAddict Aug 2014 #201

UGH. That bigoted post got kept, thanks to ONE juror. alp227 Aug 2014 #175

for the record d_r Aug 2014 #184

It's not eugenics when it comes to abortion. Iron Man Aug 2014 #117

It is eugenics d_r Aug 2014 #131

The discussion is abortion. Iron Man Aug 2014 #132

The discussion is Down Syndrome d_r Aug 2014 #134

I'm sorry d_r Aug 2014 #135

I just answered another newer thread on this - JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #127

Someone asked him for his opinion and he gave it gollygee Aug 2014 #150

People should be free to choose get the red out Aug 2014 #155

Wow, a shitload of anti-choice trolls here today, isn't that just peachy! Humanist_Activist Aug 2014 #157

"UGH. this is why people associate secular thought with lack of morality."? Grow up, mr blur Aug 2014 #159

i would probably terminate such a pregnancy. Scout Aug 2014 #163

You typed a question mark instead of a period after the sentence by mistake. KamaAina Aug 2014 #164

I think pro-choice goes both ways... LeftishBrit Aug 2014 #167

I agree with him n/t PasadenaTrudy Aug 2014 #168

And.... Manifestor_of_Light Aug 2014 #176

Creepy thinking bordering on eugenics. Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #202

This is the man's personal opinion Bettie Aug 2014 #206

So? Some opinions are reprehensible. alp227 Aug 2014 #207

But to declare that his opinion is the sole reason why religious types Bettie Aug 2014 #208

He should go back to science and forget about social commentary. hrmjustin Aug 2014 #226

I don't know about "immoral" but... pipi_k Aug 2014 #239