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Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
9. If they cannot profit they will not put money in bonds
Tue Dec 20, 2011, 04:24 PM
Dec 2011

Bonds are how governments fund projects -- http://www.wesdschools.org/News.aspx?type=viewArticle&article=1365

On the federal level bonds are how the government can spend more money than it raises in tax receipts. If bonds were no longer sold you would see deficit spending evaporate overnight; something the GOP would love. And sorry, even if you defunded the DoD 100% -- a thin that pushes past absurd and politically suicidal -- you would only account for $665 billion. That's AFTER the Iraq withdrawal and includes gutting all vet benefits, etc. Even then it's only 1/3 of the annual $1.7 trillion dollar deficit.

Deficit. Not overall budget; but only 1/3 of the deficit.

We need bonds unless we want to slash education, Medicare, social services, EPA/FDA/OSHA regulation enforcement, etc by 55% overnight.

And bonds aren't even profitable. All they do is offer a hedge against inflation. Bonds *are* the inflation rate. That 2% rate of return is the 2% inflation rate for the consumers. Most investors try to make Profit = (investment + return) - inflation. All the bond buyer did was break even. Tax them and suddenly bonds become auto-loss instruments. If the market dries up the rate of return climbs until people start buying them. That makes everything more expensive down the line for the consumer and dries up the credit markets.

Municipal bonds are even trickier. The feds will always be there but municipal governments can actually disappear if the city's population/economy (read: tax base) fades away. A city can say, "We have 100,000 people each taxed at a marginal rate of 5%. We grow plus 2% population every 10 years ergo we surmise tax receipts of X in Y years." But if the local economy goes toes-up those calculations become moot. If the pensions were funded on promises-only the retirees can howl day and night but the money won't be there. You can't squeeze blood from a stone, regardless of how much you tax the stone.

If you had to choose between schools and sewers here and now vs. retirees you can instantly see the issue. No schools or sewers means destroy your city. What do you use to pay your retired employees then, even if only half of what you promised?

The solution isn't to punish bond-holders, and the schools, roads and seweres they fund. The solution is to compel anyone offering a pension to have cash-on-demand in the bank to cover those pensions. Basing pensions on assumed 8% ROIs is a practice no SEC-governed entity would be allowed to lawfully claim. That way the bond-holders are 1 set of transactions and the pensioners are separate and segregated -- insulated, if you will -- from the economic tides.

Wouldn't a bankruptcy judge have to approve such a plan? badtoworse Dec 2011 #1
Will a judge more likely have a city financed retirement account or city bonds RC Dec 2011 #3
The judge is bound, one would hope, to enforce the laws. Igel Dec 2011 #10
Not to mention, has his own retirement plan to think about bhikkhu Dec 2011 #15
Wtf would a bondholder care about retirees? You don't want to pay you don't get debt to jtuck004 Dec 2011 #29
The pensioners would still be risking everything Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2011 #4
So the rest of us have to stick it to the bond holders to the degree where they no longer can profit saras Dec 2011 #6
If they cannot profit they will not put money in bonds Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2011 #9
I would think bondholders are pushing ahead of others in line in the bankruptcy, RickFromMN Dec 2011 #16
I was under the impression that bondholders are first in line in a bankruptcy proceeding badtoworse Dec 2011 #20
Typically, bondholders are first in line joeglow3 Dec 2011 #32
Good questions. Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2011 #27
I did not realize bondholders were first in line. RickFromMN Dec 2011 #36
Yes, and people to whom wages and benefits are owed are the first priority treestar Dec 2011 #25
Cutting pensions is immoral beyong belief. Odin2005 Dec 2011 #2
Why do you hate America? What are you some kind of commie? stillwaiting Dec 2011 #12
I was one in high school! Odin2005 Dec 2011 #13
How do i rec this? we can do it Dec 2011 #5
I think you click DU rec. aquart Dec 2011 #8
Employment contracts don't seem to be considered worthy of being honored. aquart Dec 2011 #7
Pensions are deferred pay. The RWrs have messaged pensions to mean some sort of golden parachute wiggs Dec 2011 #11
How will the Plutocracy protect itself if it keeps doing this to its police gangs? n/t Zalatix Dec 2011 #14
K&R (n/t) a2liberal Dec 2011 #17
Let's hope the officers who have harassed & abused OWS read this or hear about it. pacalo Dec 2011 #18
Another instance of "class warfare" from the top down. Disgusting in the extreme. n/t whathehell Dec 2011 #19
the main problem we(as citizens)have onethatcares Dec 2011 #21
Sad trends continue along with this austerity madness. mmonk Dec 2011 #22
I have been getting cuts to my pension in one way or another since 2004 NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #23
When my father was alive, he worked for a corporation that promised him and my mom medical care fasttense Dec 2011 #24
K'd & R'd nt DeathToTheOil Dec 2011 #26
Take 'em to court. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2011 #28
Us UAW retirees did just that when the retirees were not allowed a vote in the cuts NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #30
Seriously? The court ruled that retirees will just take whatever the current managers want to pay? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2011 #34
No, the court ruled we had to take what the current employees voted for in their contract NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #35
It's all part of the sick, twisted disgusting plan... Earth_First Dec 2011 #31
This is the same city that fired ALL it's teachers to break the union Marrah_G Dec 2011 #33
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