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Showing Original Post only (View all)How can we have democracy when half the population holds 20% of the Senate? [View all]
Obviously this isn't the only problem that complicates democracy in the United States, but half the representative/legislative part of our government, the part that represents the people, is based on something anti-democratic:
by allocating two senators per state:
169 million people in 10 states have 20 out of 100 Senators.
144 million people in 40 states have 80 out of 100 Senators.
if you think all you need is a majority of the people to favor Single Payer, even if they did, they wouldn't be represented by a majority of Senate seats.
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How can we have democracy when half the population holds 20% of the Senate? [View all]
CreekDog
Apr 2014
OP
Well California would support protecting gays from discrimination, Wyoming does not
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#300
so you're saying that our system is based on 18th century models, and shouldn't be changed
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#200
How does giving some people more influence than others reduce tyranny of the majority?
DanTex
Apr 2014
#52
A better way? OK, how about changing the senate so that each voter has equal influence.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#67
not true. when i lived in Arizona and Utah, I had no problem with CA having more power
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#221
I'm tired of people who seem to think that "republic" and "democracy" are mutually exclusive terms.
Spider Jerusalem
Apr 2014
#121
I'm somewhat off topic, but MI voters' banning affirmative action at UM is a case of the majority
AlinPA
Apr 2014
#370
I'm just throwing it out there for the OP to read , she could also read the Republic by Plato
oneofthe99
Apr 2014
#17
you ran away from it, you were quoting it and then when questioned you said...
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#255
Keep in mind that even though Wyoming may have the same number of Senators as...
Shandris
Apr 2014
#12
Are you saying that the understandings/beliefs/concerns of the people in, say, Staten Island
DanTex
Apr 2014
#69
I think the last thing we want is to pay attention to the beliefs or concerns of Staten Island
theboss
Apr 2014
#146
well the Senate is such that it would be akin to Staten Island getting 2 senators...
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#226
the question wasn't asking to rerun the 2012 election under the scenario you cited
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#227
Of course, I don't expect the privileged class to simply give up their privileges.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#195
Minority Rights are part of what seperates a republic apart from a pure democracy.
NutmegYankee
Apr 2014
#306
Isn't that nice. Shame the topic was the Constitution and Constitutional Convention.
NutmegYankee
Apr 2014
#80
I think race is probably a touchy subject for people arguing in favor of entrenched inequality.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#99
It empowered slave states over non-slave states, helping keep slaves from freedom
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#355
those against slavery wanted it to be 0/5! Counting a slave as anything over 0 gave...
yawnmaster
Apr 2014
#356
the slaves were human beings. they wanted to be counted fully and have full rights.
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#357
QUOTE me where i said that what the slaves wanted was considered in the debate
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#359
Do you really think they, the slaves, had much, if any, knowledge about how the constitution...
yawnmaster
Apr 2014
#360
do you think they needed any special knowledge to want to be thought of as human beings?
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#361
you don't think every detail of a slave's position in this country would be of interest to them?
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#363
That is right, I don't think many even knew there was a debate going on. Do you realize that...
yawnmaster
Apr 2014
#369
it is a REGIONAL checks and balance, ftmp. That is why it is not based on population. eom
yawnmaster
Apr 2014
#354
Why spend any money in a state like Wyoming in a pure apportioned legislative body?
NutmegYankee
Apr 2014
#102
you do realize that those supporting slavery wanted the 3/5 to be 5/5 a full representation...
yawnmaster
Apr 2014
#352
Your corrections in this thread included "shaming" me for mentioning slavery in this thread
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#91
But giving some people more power than others arbitrarily doesn't make things better.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#47
That's the very reason things won't change -- the people with power don't want to give it up.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#63
In that case, the question is, why doesn't Staten Island get two senators to defend itself?
DanTex
Apr 2014
#85
States aren't people, and state lines don't justify gross inequality of representation.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#112
"and yet they don't get two senators of their own to protect them from the bullies."
EX500rider
Apr 2014
#268
Not so good with math, huh. I guess division and proportionality are kind of advanced concepts.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#274
But the amount of representation per capita, which is what matters, is grossly unequal.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#279
The people HAVE equal representation in the House and the States have equal representation..
EX500rider
Apr 2014
#316
Yes, the senate was designed as an unequal, undemocratic body. This is a bad thing.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#320
The "problem" is that you can't differentiate between an objective and a side effect
badtoworse
Apr 2014
#321
Of course I can. But the objective doesn't justify the inequality of representation.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#322
We'll just have to disagree about whether the structure of the Senate is good or bad.
badtoworse
Apr 2014
#323
Would you change the electoral college? Or give representation to DC in the house/senate?
DanTex
Apr 2014
#333
DC representation, No. Electoral College, maybe - I need to think about it.
badtoworse
Apr 2014
#334
"That seems like a pretty straightforward case of taxation without representation"
badtoworse
Apr 2014
#337
no they don't and in DC they have no representation in the Senate, do you like that?
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#325
Yes they DO have equal in the House and DC was set up like that for a reason.
EX500rider
Apr 2014
#340
The make up (statewide election, 6 year terms, and separation of powers) would still be the purpose
TheKentuckian
Apr 2014
#231
Rhode Island's interests are a lot more like New York's and California's than Wyoming
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#241
California has stronger laws protecting its rural environment than Wyoming does
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#245
California has stronger laws to protect people than Wyoming (saw you try to move the goalposts btw)
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#295
Leaving aside all the arguments below, is the problem with America right now the Senate?
hughee99
Apr 2014
#40
I'm surprised that people are actually defending this grossly undemocratic practice.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#43
i'm guessing based on some of the responses that we'd end up with more gun control
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#54
The US Constitution was a compromise designed to protect the "rights" of slave-owners.
Romulox
Apr 2014
#60
The system was designed so that Senators represented the states, not the people.
badtoworse
Apr 2014
#84
We still have a country functioning under the same constitution more than 200 years later.
badtoworse
Apr 2014
#94
which sort of made sense when there were 13 independent former colonies
Warren Stupidity
Apr 2014
#187
States really are independent functioning political units with interests driven by local issues
badtoworse
Apr 2014
#307
One must understand the problems with a pure democracy and why we have a republic...
yawnmaster
Apr 2014
#115
"Changing to a more equal system wouldn't result in large population states having all the power..."
Jenoch
Apr 2014
#137
Right, but not in the senate. Which means that overall they are underrepresented.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#293
it's working as the founding fathers intended? you mean half slave half free nation?
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#248
they intended we'd fight a civil war and lose hundreds of thousands of lives?
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#298
Fascinating that support for unequal representation and for the NRA are almost 100% correlated here.
DanTex
Apr 2014
#129
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
lumberjack_jeff
Apr 2014
#273
That is not a privilege. Representation in the Senate was never intended to be based on population.
badtoworse
Apr 2014
#217
How can we have a Republic in which 20% of the states have 51% of the Representatives? n/t
lumberjack_jeff
Apr 2014
#144
so you're saying James Madison floated a turd when he opposed the non-proportional Senate?
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#170
i didn't ask you not to post unless it violates the TOS or community standards
CreekDog
Apr 2014
#181
I don't think posters here really have any idea what "pure democracy" in the US would look like
theboss
Apr 2014
#149
The Senate was never intended to be democratic, but as a check on the "mob rule" of the House...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2014
#162
Regarding the overrepresentation of less populous states, it is still the norm in Western Europe ...
Democracyinkind
Apr 2014
#309
Who's playing games? Rhode Island was the 13th state to ratify the constitution...
badtoworse
Apr 2014
#304
I agree with you 100%, the Senate was a bad idea then and it's a bad idea now
Hippo_Tron
Apr 2014
#260
For states' power concerns, can I suggest the Penrose method of square root voting power?
muriel_volestrangler
Apr 2014
#311
It's also similar in role to the upper houses of some other bicameral legislatures.
Gormy Cuss
Apr 2014
#336
This is why we have the worst society for the common person in the developed world.
Romulox
Apr 2014
#317