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Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 08:30 PM Apr 2014

How pragmatic were the pragmatists when it came to the Iraq War and gay marriage? [View all]

We hear a lot from the "pragmatists" about the importance of accepting political reality, because the pragmatists like to talk about reality so much I think it is fair to take a look at whether or not they truly have a grasp on the reality they like to insist they are in touch with.

I remember the lead up to the Iraq War and I remember watching the pragmatists rallying behind Bush to show bi-partisan support for the war. Many of us in the progressive community loudly objected to the rush to war, but we were dismissed as the "far left" and our love for our country was called into question. Those of us who did not believe the administration's claims on WMD's were dismissed as conspiracy theorists, while the so-called pragmatists insisted that the Bush Administration's case for war was rock solid.

Well it turned out the pragmatists were not so pragmatic after all and they helped Bush in creating what may well be the worst foreign policy disaster in American history. Thousands of Americans dead, hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, trillions of dollars in depleted treasury, and our nation's reputation in tatters. That is what the policy that the "pragmatists" told us we should support gave us.

Then there is the issue of marriage equality. Just a few short years ago the pragmatists called support for gay marriage a far-left extremist position, they insisted that advocating for such a thing would guarantee the Republicans election victories for years to come. Well it turned out that support for gay marriage was not as extreme a position as the pragmatists insisted it was and now gay marriage is legal in a number of states and it is looking more and more likely that it will be legal across the nation.

Then there is the issue of marijuana legalization, just a few years ago those of us who talked about this were often ridiculed by the pragmatists who insisted that promoting legalization would not only make us all look like pot heads but also create a society filled with mass drug addiction and higher crime rates. Well guess what? Two states have now legalized pot and the massive problems that were predicted never came to pass, now people across the nation are saying they want legalization in their states as well. Once again, the pragmatist policy proved to be not nearly as pragmatic as they thought it was.

There are a number of other "far left" positions that the so-called pragmatists tell us that are not realistic to push for. They tell us single payer health care is not realistic despite the fact that many other countries have adopted it and most Americans want it. They tell us that fighting back against the extremists in the NRA is not realistic because it will cost us votes despite the fact that in the last election candidates with F ratings from the NRA outperformed candidates with A ratings. They tell us that calling for an end to NSA spying is not realistic despite the fact that most Americans value their privacy. I call bullshit to all of it, the arrogance of the so-called "realists" in continuing to pretend they have a better grasp on reality than the rest of us despite the fact that they are wrong so often needs to be called out.

The pragmatists are not nearly as pragmatic nor as realistic as they claim to be, it is time to stand up for what is right and stop letting people who have been wrong so many times tell us what is and is not realistic.

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Actually, the pragmatists knew that if Obama supported marriage equality before the 2008 election JoePhilly Apr 2014 #1
Do you consider Hillary a "pragmatist"? n/t Fumesucker Apr 2014 #2
I believe Pragmatists think that ripping apart Hillary Clinton and dragging... Walk away Apr 2014 #82
In what way did I voice any opinion of Hillary Clinton? Fumesucker Apr 2014 #115
I'm sorry that you didn't understand that I was using a collective "you"... Walk away Apr 2014 #116
I appreciate your sorrow over my intellectual shortcomings Fumesucker Apr 2014 #117
I didn't mean it facetiously. Perhaps I was wrong and you... Walk away Apr 2014 #119
Obama could have come out as gay in 2008 and won Capt. Obvious Apr 2014 #5
Your first claim you have no evidence to back up Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #8
Here, I'll help you out with a football analogy Capt. Obvious Apr 2014 #10
Nor does your claim. JoePhilly Apr 2014 #14
You are putting words in my mouth Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #21
I never had a moment's doubt that invading Iraq was a bad idea yardwork Apr 2014 #80
correlation isn't causation dsc Apr 2014 #87
political currents changed dramatically over time. Pretending otherwise is dishonest. KittyWampus Apr 2014 #101
Those that claim they are pragmatic are really saying they love the status quo which is killing rhett o rick Apr 2014 #22
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Scuba Apr 2014 #64
That a pretty irresponsibly idealistic view of the world. Walk away Apr 2014 #84
You lost me at "irresponsibly". nm rhett o rick Apr 2014 #86
I'm not surprised. Walk away Apr 2014 #95
People who called themselves pragmatists were sure Obama could not support marriage Bluenorthwest Apr 2014 #24
Obama is a pragmatist, right? JoePhilly Apr 2014 #39
And the change in policy in 2012 was way more the result of an bullwinkle428 Apr 2014 #44
No it wasn't Sgent Apr 2014 #50
And political currents have changed. And you darned well know it. Opposition collapsed. KittyWampus Apr 2014 #102
Those whose principles change AgingAmerican Apr 2014 #109
You have proven the OP correct AgingAmerican Apr 2014 #108
When team wins - it's due to pragmatism Capt. Obvious Apr 2014 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author Adam051188 Apr 2014 #4
It's always the idealists who stay home Capt. Obvious Apr 2014 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author Adam051188 Apr 2014 #9
... Fumesucker Apr 2014 #13
Here ... I'll help you ... with a Football anaolgy. JoePhilly Apr 2014 #7
This message was self-deleted by its author Adam051188 Apr 2014 #11
Not all of them. But certainly some are. JoePhilly Apr 2014 #16
The idealists fight for life, liberty and freedoms. The pragmatists groveled before George Bush rhett o rick Apr 2014 #25
Obama .. the pragmatist ... just got 10 million people ... JoePhilly Apr 2014 #29
How do you know that we would have gotten nothing? With your thinking we still would be a colony of rhett o rick Apr 2014 #32
You're on the sideline right now. JoePhilly Apr 2014 #36
I am on the field trying for a touchdown, it's you on the sideline content with a 20 point rhett o rick Apr 2014 #38
no on claimed that. JoePhilly Apr 2014 #40
and this is where one "team's" argument breaks down to its constituent parts bobduca Apr 2014 #47
Isnt the definition of pragmatism, "sitting in the stands"? My complaint isnt with the yardage rhett o rick Apr 2014 #110
They are on the sideline with PomPoms fascisthunter Apr 2014 #103
7 million out of 50 million, at a cost of a half trillion dollar per year giveaway to big insurance Doctor_J Apr 2014 #41
How many you helping? JoePhilly Apr 2014 #42
And the insurance companies still call the shots. zeemike Apr 2014 #51
Where are you getting 1O million? I saw 7 million earlier today. Autumn Apr 2014 #54
medicare expansion and state exchanges JoePhilly Apr 2014 #56
Um, bullshit Downtown Hound Apr 2014 #61
Dems had a super majority for about 72 days, not 2 years. JoePhilly Apr 2014 #65
When the defense is playing to stop your ground game it is a perfect time to throw the bomb. Ed Suspicious Apr 2014 #43
The Pragmatic President just got about 10 million people, health care. JoePhilly Apr 2014 #66
I'm glad he got the ACA. I spend much of my day defending it against actual people Ed Suspicious Apr 2014 #68
Ok, let's work through something here ... JoePhilly Apr 2014 #69
Here's the continuum. The way I read it is they think we went too far, Ed Suspicious Apr 2014 #70
Absolutely ... JoePhilly Apr 2014 #73
good post you Eagles fan! treestar Apr 2014 #63
I can't figure out ... JoePhilly Apr 2014 #71
I am utter, humble awe of the ass-kicking 4th and 26 you have been on this thread. msanthrope Apr 2014 #74
I grew up playing football ... JoePhilly Apr 2014 #75
labeling someone who works in accordance with deeply held convictions as an idealist is convenient.. LanternWaste Apr 2014 #88
It's absurd to keep pretending that Third Way Democrats have the same goals woo me with science Apr 2014 #12
You say that like it's a bad thing? Fumesucker Apr 2014 #18
Interesting food for thought. Zorra Apr 2014 #20
Heh. Well said. woo me with science Apr 2014 #45
I offer a different view. We live in a society that is heavily authoritarian influenced. rhett o rick Apr 2014 #78
+100000 And the pressure and propaganda to that end are constant. woo me with science Apr 2014 #107
The moment you start thinking for yourself you become an enemy of society Fumesucker Apr 2014 #121
It's absurd to keep pretending that the Third Way Democrats are on DU. jeff47 Apr 2014 #48
"Micro steps." " a series of small steps to reach the goal" woo me with science Apr 2014 #52
A microstep is "Don't ask, don't tell". jeff47 Apr 2014 #53
Absolutely correct. zeemike Apr 2014 #55
This! Oilwellian Apr 2014 #111
I think you are giving The Team way too much credit. Let's use indefinite detention as rhett o rick Apr 2014 #77
Your example is perfect to show what I'm talking about. jeff47 Apr 2014 #89
You seem to be trying to rationalize what I am saying. My point is that one side does not rhett o rick Apr 2014 #91
Third Way Democrats are re-branded Republicans. Corp leaders arent stupid. rhett o rick Apr 2014 #76
It's absurd to think that Ideologues can have a reasonable discussion. There are so many DU'ers KittyWampus Apr 2014 #104
163. Here goes. Zorra Apr 2014 #15
A great post from a great DUer.... Bluenorthwest Apr 2014 #28
Thank you, very much, for posting that. Luminous Animal Apr 2014 #34
EPIC! Rack it! Great post. Ed Suspicious Apr 2014 #49
Oh God. Thank you for posting that. I had that bookmarked Autumn Apr 2014 #57
That was amazing Oilwellian Apr 2014 #114
Pragmatist here gwheezie Apr 2014 #17
The "pragmatists" aren't very pragmatic Doctor_J Apr 2014 #19
I would love to see the list of pragmatic DUers who you base this on. Walk away Apr 2014 #85
I don't care whether they believe in these things or not Doctor_J Apr 2014 #99
I ask the President not to make thoses cuts... Walk away Apr 2014 #105
They were preparing defenses for the NSA and drones. Looking "forward" donchya know? Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2014 #23
Being a "pragmatist" ProSense Apr 2014 #26
Believe me, DU was radically opposed to the Iraq war. Skidmore Apr 2014 #27
I was lurking then, the site was much more left leaning in those days Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #30
I wasnt around here back then but I find it hard to believe there were many supporting the iraq war DCBob Apr 2014 #31
Look at the "pragmatic" politicians who supported it Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #33
I wouldnt call them pragmatists.. those are conservative Democrats.. DCBob Apr 2014 #35
There is a reason I have been putting the word "pragmatist" in quotes in this thread Bjorn Against Apr 2014 #37
Self-described, typically. Pholus Apr 2014 #58
I was here and couldn't believe Proud Liberal Dem Apr 2014 #67
Third Way Democrats = Republican-lite blkmusclmachine Apr 2014 #46
Self-described "pragmatists" are often just sports fans. Marr Apr 2014 #59
it's like "Biblical literalist": just something to brandish, nothing to do with *reading* the text MisterP Apr 2014 #60
False Frame treestar Apr 2014 #62
You appear to be saying that pragmatists are rare in American politics Fumesucker Apr 2014 #72
If Clinton-Sachs isnt a pragmatist maybe she is an opportunist. rhett o rick Apr 2014 #81
I thought you were aiming at DUers treestar Apr 2014 #90
It was pragmatic to support the war. What other excuse could Clinton-Sachs have? rhett o rick Apr 2014 #79
Were they being pragmatic or thinking it was the right thing to do? treestar Apr 2014 #92
I cant believe we still need to justify not supporting the I-War. rhett o rick Apr 2014 #93
No I do not, quit misrepresenting just to argue treestar Apr 2014 #94
I appreciate the question and will be glad to answer it, however, we are discussing something rhett o rick Apr 2014 #96
You might have a point if there were many (any) DUers who supported the IWR or opposed gay marriage DanTex Apr 2014 #83
See post # 15, link for you below Zorra Apr 2014 #97
I'll check it out, but first, thanks for linking. DanTex Apr 2014 #106
The don't seem to notice what our JoePhilly Apr 2014 #113
The prevailing headwinds against gay marriage finally abated. Hence, such dramatic forward progress. KittyWampus Apr 2014 #98
Is that what they call leading from behind? Capt. Obvious Apr 2014 #100
No, we've had to cut through that type of horseshit every single day to force the issue Zorra Apr 2014 #112
Pragmatist here, and I was against the Iraq war stevenleser Apr 2014 #118
One thing about people who call themselves "pragmatists" or... bvar22 Apr 2014 #120
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