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In reply to the discussion: The game is over. Even Andrew Sullivan has jumped ship of the NSA and GCHQ. In Greenwald's defense [View all]muriel_volestrangler
(101,348 posts)108. I don't think the documents are 'stolen', under UK law
The legal definition of theft involves, in England, intent to permanently deprive. Copying is not stealing (there's copyright aspects to a lot of copying, of course, but that is not being invoked here). Greenwald has copies of American data (and so does The Guardian, in London, and it hasn't had its computers taken away, or anyone charged; for that matter, the Washington Post hasn't had its computers confiscated, or anyone charged, and that's in the USA, where it was government data). This dates from 1997, but I don't think new legislation has been introduced:
At present the criminal law gives no specific protection to trade secrets. In
particular, trade secrets cannot, in law, be stolen: they do not constitute property
for the purpose of the Theft Act 1968,11 section 1 of which defines the offence of
theft as the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the
intention of permanently depriving the other of it. In the leading case, Oxford v
Moss,12 an undergraduate obtained the proof of an examination paper before the
examination. After reading the proof he returned it, retaining the information for
his own use. He was held not guilty of stealing the information.
The principle is strikingly illustrated by Absolom,13 which followed Oxford v Moss.
The defendant, a geologist, obtained and then tried to sell to a rival company
details of a leading oil companys exploration for oil off the Irish coast. The
information, which was contained in a graphalog (a record of geological data
and an indication of the prospects of finding oil), was unique, since the company
was the only oil company exploring the area. The company had invested £13
million in drilling operations, and the information could have been sold for
between £50,000 and £100,000. Although the judge stated that the defendant had
acted in utmost bad faith, he directed the jury to acquit him of theft, on the
ground that the information in the graphalog was not capable of founding such a
charge.
A further difficulty with applying the law of theft to the misappropriation of a trade
secret arises from the requirement that the defendant must intend permanently to
deprive the owner of the property. It is difficult to see how there is any question
of deprivation where someone has, in breach of confidence, forced the original
holder to share, but not forget, his secret.
http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/docs/cp150_Legislating_the_Criminal_Code__Misuse_of_Trade_Secrets_Consultation.pdf
particular, trade secrets cannot, in law, be stolen: they do not constitute property
for the purpose of the Theft Act 1968,11 section 1 of which defines the offence of
theft as the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the
intention of permanently depriving the other of it. In the leading case, Oxford v
Moss,12 an undergraduate obtained the proof of an examination paper before the
examination. After reading the proof he returned it, retaining the information for
his own use. He was held not guilty of stealing the information.
The principle is strikingly illustrated by Absolom,13 which followed Oxford v Moss.
The defendant, a geologist, obtained and then tried to sell to a rival company
details of a leading oil companys exploration for oil off the Irish coast. The
information, which was contained in a graphalog (a record of geological data
and an indication of the prospects of finding oil), was unique, since the company
was the only oil company exploring the area. The company had invested £13
million in drilling operations, and the information could have been sold for
between £50,000 and £100,000. Although the judge stated that the defendant had
acted in utmost bad faith, he directed the jury to acquit him of theft, on the
ground that the information in the graphalog was not capable of founding such a
charge.
A further difficulty with applying the law of theft to the misappropriation of a trade
secret arises from the requirement that the defendant must intend permanently to
deprive the owner of the property. It is difficult to see how there is any question
of deprivation where someone has, in breach of confidence, forced the original
holder to share, but not forget, his secret.
http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/docs/cp150_Legislating_the_Criminal_Code__Misuse_of_Trade_Secrets_Consultation.pdf
There are laws about the misuse of computers, which cover people hacking, but those would apply to Snowden, not to everyone he then copied the data to.
Miranda was not detained under suspicion of theft, or the Official Secrets Act, or anything like that; he was detained under the Terrorism Act, which was written (before 9/11) to allow anyone to be detained at an airport or border, for up to 9 hours, even if they're not suspected of having anything to do with terrorism. This is an abuse of the act, though it seems to follow the letter of the law. It is the mark of an authoritarian government to do this.
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The game is over. Even Andrew Sullivan has jumped ship of the NSA and GCHQ. In Greenwald's defense [View all]
kpete
Aug 2013
OP
Andrew Sullivan...meet the underside of the bus!!! Matt is currently changing the oil.
Rex
Aug 2013
#2
Oh please, most people foaming at the mouth over the NSA can't stand Sullivan.
KittyWampus
Aug 2013
#7
Put me in the category of "foaming at the mouth" for forcing the NSA to adhere to the Constitution.
rhett o rick
Aug 2013
#64
Happily under the bus for "forcing the NSA to adhere to the Constitution."
chimpymustgo
Aug 2013
#114
Oh please, where on earth did you get the infantile notion that you have to love someone in
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#104
I see a lot of classic authoritarianism. The is a need to establish a hard and fast
rhett o rick
Aug 2013
#142
That's a good question. And since there are those who apparently think only in black and white terms
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#151
Another thing that usually stumps authoritarians is asking them to relate their
rhett o rick
Aug 2013
#154
That is why they have no credibility and why the support for Whistle Blowers is growing even in this
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#155
No need to like Sully to agree with him on this issue, because Straight Society does
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#120
the only pleasure I get from reading your defense of the surveillance state is
Swagman
Aug 2013
#173
LOL! Pick a lane when it comes to Sullivan. Most people foaming at the mouth over the NSA don't like
KittyWampus
Aug 2013
#5
or just pick and choose from a wide variety of sources to that you hear only what you want to hear.
Pretzel_Warrior
Aug 2013
#159
When it comes to conservatives he seems to be one of the more sensible ones.
Ed Suspicious
Aug 2013
#160
And when the stories are saying he was transporting documents between Poitras and Greenwald... n/t
sweetloukillbot
Aug 2013
#12
If you like the NSA surveillance, then you don't like the publishing of the documents.
JDPriestly
Aug 2013
#99
Ms. Poitras knows better than to let him "transport" unencrypted documents
HumansAndResources
Aug 2013
#96
So because they're encrypted it's okay to smuggle them and he shouldn't be questioned?
sweetloukillbot
Aug 2013
#97
It'd be interesting to know how reliable Greenwald and Poitras's internet access has been
muriel_volestrangler
Aug 2013
#107
Hang out with people who traffic in stolen things and watch how often you and your dwelling are
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#40
I'm no expert in British law, but generally, when you transit airports, you agree to being searched
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#59
Ah the reporter from RT! I note, Steve, that you failed to correct the verbiage of the
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#121
So many mistakes to correct. #1 - I announced on my show my refusal to work with Russian media until
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#122
No deity needs to be involved. It's extremely straightforward. As someone else noted...
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#63
Except no one on your side has been able to refute my points on this. That suggests that your side
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#117
I see two sides, one calls Miranda very properly Greenwald's partner the other says
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#123
Still waiting for your apology for that and the other incorrect accusation
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#124
You call them 'boy friends' and 'bfs' over and over again in this thread. You should
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#128
The fact that your accusations are incorrect have been pointed out multiple times now.
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#130
Plus, few countries examine you closely on the way out. It's when you come in that they take a look
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#119
Which is why you have to get at it to know. Which is why when he flew through an international
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#141
As you noted earlier, ultimately no one is going to disagree with the ability of a country to search
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#149
He wasn't doing anything illegal in either country, but Germany doesn't have a law
muriel_volestrangler
Aug 2013
#109
Is there some reason why a journalist should NOT carry their work related equipment with them
sabrina 1
Aug 2013
#152
He chose to hang out with the co-conspirators of someone indicted for espionage
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#43
The only classification that would matter in this case is diplomat with diplomatic immunity.
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#116
Mistake? You are up and down this thread calling them 'boys' and 'bf' and boyfriends
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#125
I had no idea and the moment it was pointed out to me I stopped. Still waiting for your apology
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#126
That's hilarious. You were told several times and persisted with the 'bf'.
Bluenorthwest
Aug 2013
#134
Are you now, or have you ever been, an associate of a journalist?
muriel_volestrangler
Aug 2013
#111
Actually, I think he may only claim to be an ex-Democratic party officer and PR flack
muriel_volestrangler
Aug 2013
#153
Not hang out with an associate of Snowden (not Greenwald) that had access to documents and
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#147
There is no such thing as an illegal search when transiting international airports. nt
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#69
What do you want to bet the documents have to do with the film being made on the topic of Snowden
JDPriestly
Aug 2013
#105
Right. Law enforcement should always trust a perps word and assume perps are too smart to do dumb
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#38
Wish you were posting more often. Nice to have someone trying to educate some of these
lumpy
Aug 2013
#98
The crime is the surveillance program, not the informing of the American people about the
JDPriestly
Aug 2013
#102
We can argue about that, but the person under indictment for espionage is Snowden.
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#118
"nothing to do with terrorism and everything to do with his connection to stolen classified docs"
NealK
Aug 2013
#80
There it is. I knew once the details came out there would be a good reason.
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#23
Snowden has been indicted for espionage. Anyone meeting with him or his friends
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#33
No, I don't. We're discussing a very specific issue here, one that doesnt have a parallel with
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#79
Got it. You expect me to guess at the exact question you are asking. No thanks. nt
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#85
No it isn't. If you traffic in stolen goods or information that is what will happen to you and those
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#115
It's definitely a stretch in terms of that law (which as egnever notes is an odd one anyway) but...
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#45
I'm glad you are accustomed to the fact that I use good reasoned arguments. nt
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#51
No one has been able to refute any of my points on Snowden/Manning/Greenwald/Assange yet.
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#77
Sullivan has been a hard-core Obama supporter, so this is quite the development to note
quinnox
Aug 2013
#58
Andrew Sullivan endorsed Senator Barack Obama for the 2008 US President
PowerToThePeople
Aug 2013
#94
From your link: "... Sullivan describes himself as a conservative and is the author of
struggle4progress
Aug 2013
#157
It's sloppy of Sullivan to claim Miranda "detained ... because his partner embarrassed the American
struggle4progress
Aug 2013
#61
It's a strange kind of appeal to authority isn't it? So if Pat Buchanan came out in favor of GG and
stevenleser
Aug 2013
#137
I'm still pissed at him for being such an ass to Naomi Klein, but he has a point here:
arcane1
Aug 2013
#180