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branford

(4,462 posts)
80. "Support gun rights" certainly means different things for different people.
Sun Aug 18, 2013, 09:27 PM
Aug 2013

I am proof. Although I support gun rights, I also have no objection to universal background checks as I believe they would be both constitutional and may somewhat effective. If I cannot be convinced of the value of many proposed gun regulations, the chance of reaching stronger or more absolutist gun rights proponents is minimal.

FYI, I'm not some rural Southerner or other "redneck." I am a very liberal, politically active attorney in NYC. I live in a high-rise apartment across from the United Nations with security like a fortress. I walk to work in a similarly safe building and neighborhood. I do not own a gun, nor wish to, because I feel very safe. However, I realize that many Americans do not enjoy my level of safety or security, and would not seek to deny them the best known means to defend themselves or their families. I also know many VERY liberal friends and colleagues who own firearms, many whom members of this forum would never suspect, including outspoken defense attorneys and minority businessmen.

I also believe in and support the entire Bill of Rights. I am constantly astonished that liberals who often and loudly demand that the Constitution be interpreted to protect the maximum level of civil rights and personal liberty, suddenly find exception after exception when it comes to the Second Amendment. How one view guns should not determine how one interprets the Constitution. If one does not believe in substantial and broad gun rights, the answer is relatively straightforward. We have a clear mechanism to amend the Constitution. Moreover, many regulations are still permissible under current legal constraints.

Your complaints about Heller also miss the forest for the trees. First, regardless of your opinion concerning the decision, it is now the law of the land, just like Roe v. Wade. More importantly, even if the Court held differently, very little would change in the country. The Second Amendment only limits regulation of firearms, its absence does not impose any limitations on firearms. If the Amendment disappeared, the states and federal government would have greater authority to regulate. However, many states have Second Amendment analogues that would prevent many regulations that you would prefer, and gun control advocates would still need to gather popular support to change existing laws. The states with tight controls may get a little tighter, states with less restrictions would likely remain unchanged, and as the composition of Congress would remain as it is, I would foresee few, if any, new federal laws. If Congress cannot pass universal background checks after Newton, stronger restrictions in the near and mid-term appear to be a pipe dream.

I also stand by my analysis of Newton. It was undoubtedly a tragedy and my heart goes out to all the victims and their families. However, regardless of brutality the crime, mass shootings like Newton represent the barest fraction of gun crime. Many of the laws proposed after Newton would not have altered the outcome of the massacre or even addressed the vast majority of gun deaths, including suicides. Newton is being used to push a very broad anti-firearm agenda that is unconnected to the actual events in Newton. It is, quite frankly, no different than anti-choice advocates using Gosnell as a smokescreen to pass new abortion restrictions. The axiom, "Bad cases make bad law," is no different if the issue is abortion or firearms.

The allegation that the citizens of Connecticut are also now uniquely "susceptible to the NRA propaganda" insults the intelligence and free will of these individuals. If they are frightened and seek a means to defend themselves, they do not need the NRA or me, to suggest how they should respond. The implication that those who disagree with your position do so only because they are brainwashed, stupid or infantile is not only repugnant, but is most assuredly not going to win any converts to your cause.

k&r Little Star Aug 2013 #1
I wish young people, all young people, could travel abroad to see how others live. NYC_SKP Aug 2013 #2
A trip to Nassau pipoman Aug 2013 #5
Oh, I think it would. For kids and adults. I can see U.S. gun clubs organizing trips to visit gun CTyankee Aug 2013 #17
That's not a bad idea. They do have clubs and hunting outfitters. NYC_SKP Aug 2013 #36
and that's too bad, as I pointed out in the OP. CTyankee Aug 2013 #39
I would prefer that the trips be for those at the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum. NYC_SKP Aug 2013 #45
I know that's asking a lot, but it would be a good thing...broadens perspectives for kids who might CTyankee Aug 2013 #46
I'm trying Jamaal510 Aug 2013 #90
k&r Paladin Aug 2013 #3
Obviously gun laws and availability pipoman Aug 2013 #4
I agree that we need more work on social issues, but we can walk and chew gum at the CTyankee Aug 2013 #9
Respectfully, a lot of "gun-lovers" are suspicious of "for starters"... Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #20
well, how about "gun enthusiast" which is like a "sports enthusiast"? CTyankee Aug 2013 #27
Actually, "gun enthusiast" is acceptable. Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #49
I like and favor your last suggestion. I would compare it with the public education done around CTyankee Aug 2013 #53
It is usually encumbent on a law's supporters not to leave everyone in suspense. Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #82
I don't disagree about BG checks and have stated that repeatedly long before pipoman Aug 2013 #81
On Norway KT2000 Aug 2013 #6
They actually seem to view the oil resources of their country... Schema Thing Aug 2013 #8
And so...what? What's the link between their wealth and our lack of adequate gun safety laws? CTyankee Aug 2013 #11
Well, it may not be a direct link, but attitude is everything... Schema Thing Aug 2013 #14
sorry to hear you don't like my attitude... CTyankee Aug 2013 #16
Someone asks you a reasonable question and you tell them their attitude sucks? Squinch Aug 2013 #55
Then I guess we've got to get busy here with some of those things...but that doesn't negate the need CTyankee Aug 2013 #10
we do need gun safety laws KT2000 Aug 2013 #26
Well, how did we greatly curtail drunk driving? CTyankee Aug 2013 #28
It's sketchy at best to compare a country of 5 million to one of 300 million.... cigsandcoffee Aug 2013 #7
Lawlessness is a problem, so get rid of, or do not pass, laws to help mitigate the problem? CTyankee Aug 2013 #12
What you missed is that comparing the US to Norway is a bit silly. cigsandcoffee Aug 2013 #13
I never said we should "legislate ourselves into Norway." You missed my point. I said there are CTyankee Aug 2013 #15
Respectfully, then what exactly is your point? branford Aug 2013 #22
Again, I favor encouragement of learning different ways to solve our gun problems in this country. CTyankee Aug 2013 #42
I had a wonderful time in Norway hack89 Aug 2013 #18
Yes, it would help, but did you notice that the Norwegians don't JUST have those great networks? CTyankee Aug 2013 #19
Two different countries two radically different societies hack89 Aug 2013 #21
+1. America and Norway are like comparing apples and oranges. n/t branford Aug 2013 #23
Everything looks the same through the "guns are evil" prism. nt hack89 Aug 2013 #24
we're alike in many important ways: a middle class, representational government, freedom loving, CTyankee Aug 2013 #33
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. branford Aug 2013 #34
we don't need to minimize or ignore them. We DO need to recognize where we CAN pay attention and CTyankee Aug 2013 #37
To be clear, what do you define as the "problem?" branford Aug 2013 #43
I favored the recent gun safety bill that failed in our Congress. I thought that was reasonable. CTyankee Aug 2013 #44
We agree about universal background checks, but my prior question remains. branford Aug 2013 #50
The "larger issues" to which you refer is the 800 lb. gorilla IMO. To wit, how did we allow the CTyankee Aug 2013 #54
Respectfully, I thought our discussion was about gun policy, not a missive about the radical right? branford Aug 2013 #63
I'm not a constitutional law expert at all, but I think the SCOTUS was in serious error with its CTyankee Aug 2013 #66
by all means, let's improve access to mental health care! CTyankee Aug 2013 #48
To summerize (based on Wikipedia's link) NickB79 Aug 2013 #25
so we could start with several of these I'm fine with. CTyankee Aug 2013 #31
With the exception of the concealed carry prohibition... Lizzie Poppet Aug 2013 #57
Some of these will never be acceptable. NutmegYankee Aug 2013 #60
America's problem isn't guns. It's GUN CULTURE. Scootaloo Aug 2013 #29
Your generalizations and stereotypes of gun owners is, quite frankly, offensive. branford Aug 2013 #40
Not every gun owner buys into the gun culture Scootaloo Aug 2013 #83
The biggest (not the only) is repeat-felons Eleanors38 Aug 2013 #51
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that post mean you're a culture warrior? friendly_iconoclast Aug 2013 #52
I think there are harebrained aspects of overall American culture we'd be better off without Scootaloo Aug 2013 #84
No, it isn't the "gun culture"- in fact the exact opposite Lee-Lee Aug 2013 #71
Go back and read my post, please Scootaloo Aug 2013 #86
What you described is not "gun culture" Lee-Lee Aug 2013 #88
It is, and you're wrong Scootaloo Aug 2013 #89
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #30
you're welcome. CTyankee Aug 2013 #38
Americans traveling abroad are a large contributor to our fondness for guns... rrneck Aug 2013 #32
oh good lord rrneck. You know full well I study historical roots of cultural developemt. CTyankee Aug 2013 #35
Okay... rrneck Aug 2013 #68
I see that my post upset you and for that I am sorry. CTyankee Aug 2013 #73
The Finns held off the Soviet Red Army as well denbot Aug 2013 #41
The European continenet went through utter madness and hell in WW2 and at the end of CTyankee Aug 2013 #47
I could accept quite a few of Norwegian restrictions on fire arms. sarisataka Aug 2013 #56
How much alcohol is 20 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millitre of blood? CTyankee Aug 2013 #58
In US terms sarisataka Aug 2013 #59
Wow. Don't the Norwegians drink really strong liquor (akkavit?)? CTyankee Aug 2013 #61
Yes, that was a concern when the law was passed sarisataka Aug 2013 #62
Is .02 the legal limit in most states? CTyankee Aug 2013 #64
All states are the same now sarisataka Aug 2013 #65
wow. thanks. CTyankee Aug 2013 #67
Norway's a great country, with a population of just under 5 million Yo_Mama Aug 2013 #69
Of course, it is cultural. As you said, Norwegians are very law-abiding. CTyankee Aug 2013 #70
I would be very careful of attributing gun ownership and support primarily to the right wing. branford Aug 2013 #72
Hard as it is for you to believe or accept, the Heller decision was part of the radical right's CTyankee Aug 2013 #75
"Support gun rights" certainly means different things for different people. branford Aug 2013 #80
It is surely not coming as a surprise to you that not everyone feels the same way you do CTyankee Aug 2013 #87
Compared to US laws- a gun owner in Norway is less restricted than the US in many ways Lee-Lee Aug 2013 #74
Good! So you favor Norway's laws! Why don't we have them? CTyankee Aug 2013 #77
I would have no problem with most Lee-Lee Aug 2013 #78
Of course, gun safety advocates wouldn't leap immediately for your proposed "offer." CTyankee Aug 2013 #85
So you don't want Norway has, but a composite of the most restrictive parts of US and Norwegian law Lee-Lee Aug 2013 #91
I think mandatory training is already being proposed by the governor of IL as part of a package of CTyankee Aug 2013 #93
Like I said, lets make it happen Lee-Lee Aug 2013 #94
If it looks like legislation is deisgned to help line the pockets of the NRA, I say find another way CTyankee Aug 2013 #95
Because some of Norway's laws would NEVER be acceptable here. MicaelS Aug 2013 #92
I'm good with the 4th amendment. AS for "outmoded," I guess I have to ask you why you think CTyankee Aug 2013 #96
Central to the point of my OP was the seeming dichotomy of a nation that had actually had, CTyankee Aug 2013 #97
I Prefer Japan otohara Aug 2013 #76
I would love to visit Norway! (And have no problem with their gun laws) REP Aug 2013 #79
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