General Discussion

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)

156. oh, TIMMS is 'the usual methods', eh? First administered in 1995, less than 20 years ago.

Reply to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #148)

Fri Apr 5, 2013, 02:39 AM

Apr 2013

Go back further:

we were 'stupider' when we were leading the world in technology. now we're 'smarter,' but we're told we're dumber.

which shows how dumb the people who buy this crap are. cause they just parrot press releases from Gates Inc instead of doing their own research.

According to historical data, American education has always been bad and has actually improved over the years. In the 1960s, when the First International Mathematics Study (FIMS) and the First International Science Study (FISS)[4] was conducted, U.S. students ranked bottom in virtually all categories...

In the 1980s, when the Second International Mathematics Study (SIMS) and Second International Science Study (SISS)[5] were conducted, U.S. students inched up a little bit, but not much...

In the 1990s, in the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS)[6], American test performance was not the best but again improved...

28th out 41 (but only 20 countries performed significantly better) (8th grade math)

17th out 41 (but only 9 countries performed significantly better) (8th grade science)

In 2003, in TIMSS[7] (now changed into Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study), U.S. students were not great, but again improved:

15th out of 45 (only 9 countries significantly better) (8th grade math)

9th out of 45 (only 7 countries significantly better) (8th grade science)

In 2007, U.S. improved again in TIMMS[8], although still not the top ranking country:

9th out of 47 (only 5 countries significant better) (8th grade math)

10th out of 47 (only 8 countries significantly better) (8th grade science)

Over the half century, American students performance in international math and science tests has improved from the bottom to above international average. The following figure shows the upward trend of American students’ performance in math. Because 8th grade seems to be the only group that has been tested every time since the 1960s, the graph only includes data for 8th grade math[9].

http://zhaolearning.com/2012/12/11/numbers-can-lie-what-timss-and-pisa-truly-tell-us-if-anything/

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Math problems are a problem for job-seekers, employers say [View all] FarCenter Apr 2013 OP

I have a suggestion. SpearthrowerOwl Apr 2013 #1

Maybe if schools went back to teaching the material instead of teaching how to take a test. hobbit709 Apr 2013 #3

I agree SpearthrowerOwl Apr 2013 #5

+100 lunasun Apr 2013 #88

Wouldn't that be nice? Scootaloo Apr 2013 #132

Thread could have ended right here. RedCappedBandit Apr 2013 #157

The purely academic approach to instruction is a problem Puzzledtraveller Apr 2013 #193

Or perhaps take the focus off of sports, and put it back on education AndyA Apr 2013 #226

***DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!*** WINNER! WINNER! lastlib Apr 2013 #230

+1 Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #236

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #229

They are not looking to hire scientists, just basic manufacturing machine operators FarCenter Apr 2013 #4

my post was maybe confusing SpearthrowerOwl Apr 2013 #6

The company appears to be paying enough to attract ..... oldhippie Apr 2013 #18

This is as good an argument as any for us to go Metric. TheMightyFavog Apr 2013 #23

Yes. It is simply not reasonable to expect people to be able to multiply and divide by 12. Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #24

Fractional inches don't involve twelve, they involve powers of 2 Fumesucker Apr 2013 #30

I think you're right. Sixteenths of an inch is far, far beyond my powers of comprehension (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #31

USA lost $1 billion Mars probe because a critical measurement wasn't converted between metric and Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #44

It depends. My machinist 6" rule has 16ths and 32nds on one side and 10ths and 50ths on the other. FarCenter Apr 2013 #70

Never mind a dial caliper. ;) n/t X_Digger Apr 2013 #76

I've got one of those also, and two dial calipers Fumesucker Apr 2013 #92

1.6 minutes per question, including reading the directions and problems. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #82

People who can't read a tape measure in 96 seconds are not fit to be trained as machinists and Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #110

You are so right .... oldhippie Apr 2013 #196

Thank you. You put your finger on the simple basic logic at point and expose the pay straw man. nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #197

And a super majority of successful professionals who took the HS graduation exam failed it miserably Fumesucker Apr 2013 #199

People wanting to succeed in the 21st century need more skills than lawyers educated in the 20th. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #204

(posted reply to wrong post) Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #205

That was one person of fifty Fumesucker Apr 2013 #211

Well, it was the person highlighted in the article who seems to want to dilute the test. nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #213

What this company and our educators do not understand JDPriestly Apr 2013 #166

Modern grade school math education is getting back to that. It is more project based. nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #212

Nor is it reasonable to gravitate towards the most effective and efficient form of measurement. LanternWaste Apr 2013 #209

they're clearly not paying enough to attract people who can pass their test. but HS math performance HiPointDem Apr 2013 #74

"formula"? There is no formula necessary. Basic simple understanding of the concepts is all. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #111

there *is* a formula, mass divided by volume. they wanted a specific number for a specific HiPointDem Apr 2013 #123

But you forgot the formula, when understanding the concepts is more powerful. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #124

i can't remember the formula because i'm about 40 years out of high school & have never had HiPointDem Apr 2013 #125

It's the culture from the bottom up. Cultures that respect learning (Euro, Jpn) have better schools. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #126

oh bullshit. japanese schools are not *better* than american schools (i know from lengthy personal HiPointDem Apr 2013 #139

Japanese schools outcompete American schools by all the usual measures. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #143

'the usual measures,' eh? please describe those 'usual measures'. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #144

One of any number (TIMSS): Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #148

oh, TIMMS is 'the usual methods', eh? First administered in 1995, less than 20 years ago. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #156

Read. I did not write "usual methods". I wrote "usual measures". Fancy straw man you got there. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #160

same difference. not a straw man. surely a genius of logic such as yourself should know better. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #173

All you've got left are ad hominem attacks. Enough! Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #174

lol. 'fallacy'. 'straw man'. 'ad hominem'. you're the one tossing around the verbiage. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #175

more diversion from the facts i posted, which you ignore because they don't suit your narrative HiPointDem Apr 2013 #178

You make more stuff up. Nobody has quoted any Bill Gates press releases. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #162

only because you don't know anything about washington state politics and bill gates' media HiPointDem Apr 2013 #168

Thanks for the info. Americans have this mythology that somehow we used to be #1 in everything ... eppur_se_muova Apr 2013 #220

Density is dead simple. Understand density and you create the formula. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #127

he was a condescending jerk, and i remember him because he was so awful and *that* is when HiPointDem Apr 2013 #136

Know this: a condescending jerk is a bad teacher. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #141

it's you with the ideologically driven nonsense. you make vapid generalizations about us schools, HiPointDem Apr 2013 #145

I haven't stated any ideological positions in this thread. You have already gotten into your Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #147

your ideology is clear from your comments and your uncritical stance towards the article. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #154

You couldn't point to anything so all you've got is a smear. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #158

Re: Gates Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #159

"...& have never had to find mass in my life ..." oldhippie Apr 2013 #198

density, i meant. as in the op. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #224

What about your math teachers before high school? muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #241

People can't think because we are not teaching them how to think, but what to think. Sivafae Apr 2013 #131

+1 Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #135

bullshit. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #140

Your empty response to a poster's thoughtful writing shows the emptiness of your ideology. nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #149

'we are still stuck on rote learning' is more parrot-speak from someone who hasn't been HiPointDem Apr 2013 #153

Don't think of it as a 'formula'; think of it as a definition muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #240

If I may try to redirect this pissing match zipplewrath Apr 2013 #202

Well stated. Thank you. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #207

why not, if all they're going to be doing is repetitive entry-level manufacturing tasks? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #80

Because thinking production workers do "repetitive entry-level manufacturing tasks" misses the boat. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #128

Because I've done entry level production work and know lots of people who have. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #134

Again: Fallacy of misdirection: The article is not about entry level production workers. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #150

oooh, "fallacy of misdirection"!!! repeating 'fallacy' over and over is what parrots do. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #152

From the article: Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #129

If it's so fucking complex, why do they insist on hiring people with *only* a HS diploma? Oh, HiPointDem Apr 2013 #133

You don't know what they pay, but you think you know. It's because you are ruled by an Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #137

i know that general plastics gets cheap labor subsidized by the government through a HiPointDem Apr 2013 #142

That information has nothing to do with the conclusion you jumped to, nor the facts of the article. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #146

you'd be wrong, because mr hahn of general plastics says: HiPointDem Apr 2013 #151

Wrong. You are misdirecting again and contradicting yourself. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #155

actually, what eric said is that 1) his cheap-labor program is keeping him afloat in the recession HiPointDem Apr 2013 #161

Nope. Eric did not say that. You miscomprehend: "poised to come out" does not mean Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #164

lol. if you say so. you are the genius who knows all about fallacies and density, after all. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #170

First name with "eric"? You kept on referring to him as "eric". Enough of this nonsense. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #172

You attack my point by agreeing with it! Bizarref! Enough! Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #165

your agenda is clear to anyone reading. as are your tactics. enough indeed. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #167

Actually, they can afford to hire someone who needs to relearn basic math. JDPriestly Apr 2013 #163

I've gotta admit, I don't remember calculus anymore, because I don't use it. winter is coming Apr 2013 #225

This does not sound like a job that some one with a science degree would want karynnj Apr 2013 #19

I wasn't suggesting SpearthrowerOwl Apr 2013 #73

And despite the fact that well-qualified people are jobless, the US LibDemAlways Apr 2013 #32

manipulating employment information to drive down wages sigmasix Apr 2013 #180

"But I'm not a numbers person, I'm a people person!" Silent3 Apr 2013 #2

No one is "bad at math" zipplewrath Apr 2013 #8

"I can't read very well" kiva Apr 2013 #12

what would the numbers be if asked of american students JI7 Apr 2013 #13

Probably not too far off Posteritatis Apr 2013 #15

this reminds me of something that happened JI7 Apr 2013 #17

Despite some not thinking it's cool, kiva Apr 2013 #28

Zipplewrath, I don't mean to be argumentative, but I am truly LibDemAlways Apr 2013 #35

that makes two of us Libertas1776 Apr 2013 #138

I stuggled with long division zipplewrath Apr 2013 #189

... Libertas1776 Apr 2013 #191

Self diagnosis zipplewrath Apr 2013 #194

Ha. I'm sure it feels that way. zipplewrath Apr 2013 #187

+1. +2. +3. .... Right on. Great post with examples from experience. nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #48

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #231

Discalculia is rare. Innumeracy is pandemic. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #237

Yeah. Truth. Right on. Damn straight. The real deal. On point. Should be obvious to all. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #46

Math teachers are expensive. Our schools are cheap. nt bemildred Apr 2013 #7

maybe, but onethatcares Apr 2013 #10

I wonder if they provide quick conversion guides and formulas ecstatic Apr 2013 #9

I wonder if the applicants would do any better without the time limit. surrealAmerican Apr 2013 #11

Someone's skills would have to be pretty rusty to need several minutes to read a tape measure. (nt) Posteritatis Apr 2013 #14

people don't use a tape measure in their daily lives. liberal_at_heart Apr 2013 #36

Whether it's a ruler or a tape measure, same diff, used the same way Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #51

I don't measure things in my every day life and I am so glad to know that you must know so liberal_at_heart Apr 2013 #59

I don't know, but you just told me. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #61

okay I will tell you the extent of my measuring. liberal_at_heart Apr 2013 #69

Fine. We all start somewhere. Take charge of your life. Learn something new. You are not stupid. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #77

maybe the poster has other priorities. when s/he feels a strong need to convert recipes, s/he'll HiPointDem Apr 2013 #86

we are talking about people knowing there are 24 inches in two feet snooper2 Apr 2013 #78

I thought there were ten toes in two feet. nt. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #81

you don't know what the problem was. all you know is it involved reading a tape. you could HiPointDem Apr 2013 #87

I'd be hard pressed making difficult questions around a standard tape measure.. snooper2 Apr 2013 #94

what you did is pretty much irrelevant to anything. obviously, at some point you *learned* how HiPointDem Apr 2013 #98

I'm sorry... snooper2 Apr 2013 #105

yet here you are, able to do complex math! i was referring to installing crown moulding, not reading HiPointDem Apr 2013 #182

This may come as a surprise, but they do in fact. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #121

Get real. An adult not knowing how to use a ruler is inexcusable, period. (nt) Posteritatis Apr 2013 #185

"several" = 1.6 minutes, and that includes reading the initial instructions and each problem, in HiPointDem Apr 2013 #85

Time limit is rather large actually Capt. Obvious Apr 2013 #192

Is it time that under most state programs now in HS, 'basic' math isn't taught... JCMach1 Apr 2013 #16

This is grade school stuff WinniSkipper Apr 2013 #26

How on EARTH Aerows Apr 2013 #20

I bet there are a bunch of DUers who suck at fractions Fumesucker Apr 2013 #21

But you don't even have to know math Aerows Apr 2013 #22

Yes, but are the lines fourths, eighths or sixteenths? Fumesucker Apr 2013 #25

You fucking COUNT ..... oldhippie Apr 2013 #34

You've probably done some sort of work that involved measuring a lot Fumesucker Apr 2013 #45

Count the number of lines between "1" and "2".. if there are 8, it's 8ths, etc X_Digger Apr 2013 #75

I know that and you know that but most people really don't Fumesucker Apr 2013 #89

I think you're on to something. And people who grow up relying on GPA pnwmom Apr 2013 #106

the question wasn't 'how many inches in a foot'. and how skilled you are at 'reading a tape HiPointDem Apr 2013 #91

Inches to feet, not metric system? still_one Apr 2013 #27

I was under a curriculum that only taught metrics... we never learned JCMach1 Apr 2013 #42

the world does metrics except here still_one Apr 2013 #53

I've encountered 4 twenty yr olds (give or take a year) lately, 3 male and 1 female, who can barely Zorra Apr 2013 #29

This is beyond politics - this education now in the US public schools lunasun Apr 2013 #104

BWAHAHAHAHAHA Generic Other Apr 2013 #33

This sounds like a job that requires math skills. Incitatus Apr 2013 #37

actually, it sounds like a job that requires no math skills. it's an entry level production job. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #100

Reading the tape measure is a surrogate for exboyfil Apr 2013 #171

it may be. now tell me about the other 17 questions. in fact, show me the problems and i'll HiPointDem Apr 2013 #176

Don't you think that the individual who exboyfil Apr 2013 #183

i already said i have no problem with such tests; i have a problem with the spin, and i don't HiPointDem Apr 2013 #184

Am I missing something? missingthebigdog Apr 2013 #188

you're probably right, as the company has a 'partnership' with tacoma community college. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #190

Despite assertions, readers who read the article will see that it actually is not entry level jobs. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #169

You have to use it or you lose it. bluedigger Apr 2013 #38

I don't know if there's a standard unit for density (and I refuse to google it to look smart, hehe) X_Digger Apr 2013 #72

Trig was my downfall. bluedigger Apr 2013 #79

Funnily enough, I actually used it in construction.. X_Digger Apr 2013 #84

I didn't foresee my future in HS. bluedigger Apr 2013 #90

I'd imagine that's a HUGE part of the grunt work.. 'what' was 'where' being as important to the.. X_Digger Apr 2013 #97

Indeed. bluedigger Apr 2013 #101

Mathematics, even basic mathematics, needs to be better respected in a culture that Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #39

Well, I'm not sure I could remember how to calculate density laundry_queen Apr 2013 #40

"test is rigged"? Get off. No company looking for employees would have any incentive Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #43

Sure they would laundry_queen Apr 2013 #47

If what you say is true, you haven't shown any reason for them to "rig the test". Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #49

Simple laundry_queen Apr 2013 #55

You are the one asserting that the article lied and the test wasn't straight up dead simple. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #56

I was speculating and said as much. laundry_queen Apr 2013 #58

I posted to show that your speculation was silly and baseless, without merit. nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #63

You asserted you knew what was on the test. No proof. laundry_queen Apr 2013 #93

Nope. You can't quote where I asserted that, other than implicitly taking the article on face value Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #102

I do not believe anything other than it is a possibility laundry_queen Apr 2013 #114

Your posts show you aren't addressing the question the OP poses: Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #115

Is that a new rule on DU? nt laundry_queen Apr 2013 #116

No, it's not a rule. Just a good idea. Give it a try. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #117

Nice to know the posting police are still active. nt laundry_queen Apr 2013 #118

Read. I said "good idea". No policing. You've got nothing on topic. So be it. Enough. nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #120

his past posts indicate that. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #181

But that would be part of the test. David__77 Apr 2013 #65

the article is bill gates propaganda if you know what you're looking for. touting the common core HiPointDem Apr 2013 #103

Nonsense. There is nothing wrong with expecting students to meet basic standards Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #107

Nor does your invocation of "gatesian boilerplate" address the bogus claim "the test is rigged". nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #109

If you know what density is, then you know how to calculate it Silent3 Apr 2013 #96

Pretending to have a math block is as bogus as pretending to have a literacy block, but Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #41

Have you looked at fairly recent grammar school math textbooks? Fumesucker Apr 2013 #50

Could you be more specific, please? Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #52

It was a year ago or so, my memory of the details is not specific Fumesucker Apr 2013 #57

There's a strong emphasis now on place value. When my kid was first learning winter is coming Apr 2013 #64

That sounds like what was going on with the homework I was looking at Fumesucker Apr 2013 #68

When I saw the method, I realized it was less prone to error (even though winter is coming Apr 2013 #71

Yes. That's how it works and that's the advantage, not to mention also deeper understanding Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #95

That's a lot of writing to do if you are calculating with pencil and paper, fine for learning.. Fumesucker Apr 2013 #108

Exactly. Learn the concepts and fundamentals from all sides and then the shortcuts are a breeze Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #113

Right to left, versus left to right.. X_Digger Apr 2013 #83

See anything in this link that rings a bell as to something taught in a strange way? Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #66

Thank You !!!! Exactly lunasun Apr 2013 #112

you can thank the education deformers for those books. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #179

I always have found it strange... PopeOxycontinI Apr 2013 #54

Nope. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #60

That's got to be a spoof muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #243

Wish it were. It's for sale from Amazon.com Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #244

Longer ago people knew all about baseball, movies, popular music, but would do poorly academically FarCenter Apr 2013 #67

Right, also what a culture values & rewards. The beer drinkers applauded the baseball stats recital. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #119

STOP IT POPEOXYCONTINI Skittles Apr 2013 #177

This is how we get presidents who ask "Is our children learning?". Initech Apr 2013 #62

I'm quite good at that kind of math but I totally suck at interviewing, I wouldn't get the job Fumesucker Apr 2013 #99

The people who make it to the interview are those with the fanciest looking resume. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #122

Not as simple as "fancy resumes". Times are changing Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #130

No. You're buying what they're selling. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #200

Education issue and maybe some couldn't read the questions anyway. dipsydoodle Apr 2013 #186

This isn't breaking news....go to any company and pay attention to *basic* math and writing skills cbdo2007 Apr 2013 #195

Note the test doesn't concern itself with how to shift earned money into an offshore account, Trillo Apr 2013 #201

Huh? You'd expect to be paid for taking a short test given during a job interview? Silent3 Apr 2013 #210

Your outrage is strong! I simply don't believe in corporate welfare. Trillo Apr 2013 #217

Your sense of entitlement is stronger Silent3 Apr 2013 #218

Perhaps you need some reading lessons. Trillo Apr 2013 #219

That I threw in the word "public" is what you're going to have a tizzy over? Silent3 Apr 2013 #223

So when I test prospective employees on their relevant skills in graphics and typesetting... LanternWaste Apr 2013 #221

If you don't pay them for your testing of them, you are asking them to work for you for free. Trillo Apr 2013 #222

On what objective measure do you base that premise? LanternWaste Apr 2013 #232

That's a pretty wild concept ..... oldhippie Apr 2013 #233

Sounds like H.S. Shop grads needed. One_Life_To_Give Apr 2013 #203

The Elephant in the Math Room: Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #206

Math challenged voters are a huge problem: Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #208

I did poorly in math while in school, LanternWaste Apr 2013 #214

Excellent honest post. "Mathematics is not a spectator sport." Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #215

Children are naturally equipped for mathematics and science, but ... Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #216

And yet I've seen you on this thread blame those who don't "get it" when it comes to math Fumesucker Apr 2013 #227

Nope. It is clear in this thread that I blame the culture much more than individuals. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #234

Inner city students use stick men to add and subtract. Peregrine Took Apr 2013 #228

Yes, around 6th grade is about when the culture hammers the relationship girls have with math. nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #235

There are very few valid excuses why someone would fail a basic math test Taitertots Apr 2013 #238

Kids who can pass that test went to college... XRubicon Apr 2013 #239

If this country could do the math, we'd never elect Republicans. Demoiselle Apr 2013 #242

What percentage of those applicants were college graduates?` lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #245

Bad math skills are a huge problem where I work Nikia Apr 2013 #246