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Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
112. "For the Second Amendment" is rather glib, honestly.
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:17 AM
Dec 2012

It completely ignores several issues regarding the historical context of said amendment and the ways in which society has changed in the past two hundred and twenty years, and allows only a single interpretation: that the Second Amendment represents an absolute individual right to gun ownership. This is problematic because it focuses on "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" to the utter exclusion of "a well-regulated militia".

Historical context: the militia, historically, represents the body of subjects or citizens trained in the use of arms and liable to service if called upon. The militia has its origins far back in English history, with the medieval requirements that all yeomen train with the longbow. More historical context: this was not something required of everyone; a yeoman was a small farmer who had his lands in return for service and allegiance to his feudal lord...usually, the lord of the local manor, who in turn held his estates in return for service and allegiance to a greater lord, usually a baron, who in turn held his for his allegiance to an earl, who held his in return for allegiance to the king. The body of yeomanry trained in the use of arms alleviated the king of the expense of maintaining a standing army, and in the context of feudal society secured the loyalty of the lords and barons who would have in any case been fearful of an overly powerful royal authority.

Fast-forward a few hundred years, to the colonies, where the idea of the militia was based on the history and experience of same in British and specifically English history, and where there was the recent example of the disarming of Scotland and the abolishment, de facto, of Scots militias--the militia under common law, in practise, was raised by order of the Lord Lieutenant of a county; Lords Lieutenant were appointed by the privy council of the realm. The Scottish Privy Council was abolished with the 1707 Act of Union, and a bill for the re-establishment of the militia in Scotland was the last to receive the royal veto, in 1708.

In the context of the constitutional arguments of the early United States, there were two sides: the Federalists, and anti-Federalists. The Second Amendment, by guaranteeing to the several states the right to their respective militias, was a concession to anti-Federalists, fearful of an overly powerful central government in much the same way that those aforementioned medieval barons and earls would have feared a standing army loyal only to the king. Given this historical context, the reasons for the Second Amendment seem generally to be now rendered obsolete; we now have a standing army, the militia as such is now replaced by the National Guard, in its military functions, and by organised police forces, in its peacekeeping functions. Society has changed dramatically in the intervening 220 years and there is no longer any practical reason for a citizen militia, nor is there any practical reason to require every able-bodied man to own a gun and be trained in its use.

Given all of this historical context, I have to say that the presentation of the issue as "being for the Second Amendment" shows a genuine lack of understanding of what the Second Amendment represents (as well as an apparently wilful ignorance of the divergent legal schools of thought on its interpretation as representing an individual vs a collective right, and as representing a right of the people as individuals vs a right of states).

Anyone who advocates shooting others on the basis of the most minor perceived threat Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #1
Bingo. Just dangerous people. And it doesn't matter if they belong to the NRA or not. nt. OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #25
I am not just talking about people who are a direct danger Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #27
I understood where you were going and I agree. nt. OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #28
Ah, so only a tiny percentage of gun owners, then. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #33
Actually it is a pretty big percentage Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #36
The same people idolized G. Gordon Liddy and Oliver North graham4anything Dec 2012 #38
I would argue that the number of gun owners... Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #39
I see them all the time, there are even some at DU Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #45
Yes, I realized your assertion had two components. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #56
So you ignored the bulk of the people I was referring to so you could call it a "tiny percentage" Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #64
Hey, YOU put the first group in the headline... Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #80
No, I put the second group in the headline. I will post my headline again for you... Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #84
Except that's not what they were advocating. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #93
It sure as hell is what they were advocating Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #95
Don't presume to tell me what I know, pal. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #99
Fine, I will just presume you are ignorant then. Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #100
Works for me. I'll happily reciprocate. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #102
If you walk out door with a gun prepared to play jesus, judge, jury, executioner, Hoyt Dec 2012 #67
And the millions of shooting deaths and injuries per year prove your point. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #83
No there are "only" about 9,000 deaths a year Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #86
I don't disagree that it's too damn many. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #92
Who made a statement about tens of millions of people? A real person or a strawman? Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #94
Hoyt did. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #97
No he did not. Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #98
Tens of millions of gun owners... Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #101
Time to quote you... Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #103
I just showed you RIF. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #104
He did not make a blanket statement, and your response to his statement was sickening Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #106
Of course it's a blanket statement. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #107
Says the person who used the eye roll icon to mock the number of people killed Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #108
Ah, another who says it's just price we have to pay. . . . . . Hoyt Dec 2012 #87
Oh, I said that, did I? Wait...I didn't. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #91
The only rational answer is potato slackmaster Dec 2012 #2
~ Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #40
Wow, the alerter is rather pedantic. slackmaster Dec 2012 #60
although I wasn't #5 -- I approve of that message. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #62
This message was self-deleted by its author slackmaster Dec 2012 #66
what is that saying? Discretion is the better part of valor, I think is how it goes. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #70
I guess you should have said patahto n/t hootinholler Dec 2012 #68
People in my family are more likely to use the term "turnip" or "filter feeder" slackmaster Dec 2012 #71
Gun Nut bongbong Dec 2012 #3
" gun nut is someone who has a gun without a job or wildlife-related (i.e, rancher) reason to own it obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #8
So, you have Strawman fail bongbong Dec 2012 #29
Why do you have to be so... one_voice Dec 2012 #41
To that poster, I am a gun nut obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #51
I've been reading your posts on... one_voice Dec 2012 #53
Thank you, I really appreciate it obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #90
Proved my point obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #49
Someone who has replaced breathing with firearms. n/t 2on2u Dec 2012 #4
I have been thinking about this mostlyalurker Dec 2012 #5
Target shooting and collecting are perfectly good non-nutty reasons for owning firearms slackmaster Dec 2012 #7
I think I would lump in target shooting with hunting. mostlyalurker Dec 2012 #15
I keep my collection locked in a safe that weiged 1,200 pounds empty slackmaster Dec 2012 #18
That seems absolutely reasonable to me. mostlyalurker Dec 2012 #30
Sargent & Greenleaf Series II dial combination lock, just like on safes used for money slackmaster Dec 2012 #65
Don't forget the ever present active biological deterrant aikoaiko Dec 2012 #46
Yes, my two highly trained Attack Cats. slackmaster Dec 2012 #61
What do you mean "knives"? I've a lot of knives around my house, without serious security. uppityperson Dec 2012 #20
I mean knives not used for your daily living like kitchen or utility knives. mostlyalurker Dec 2012 #32
This message was self-deleted by its author slackmaster Dec 2012 #63
Welcome to DU and I hope you enjoy the site. hrmjustin Dec 2012 #11
Thank you! mostlyalurker Dec 2012 #16
So if you live in a crime infested area, MadHound Dec 2012 #17
Or own a ranch obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #22
I consider a gun nut in the following way... LanternWaste Dec 2012 #6
Realistically speaking... OneMoreDemocrat Dec 2012 #14
I've spoken to more than four who believe that... LanternWaste Dec 2012 #42
Check out Gungeon for more than four. Hoyt Dec 2012 #72
You don't even need to go there. I think I've seen 4 hint at that position here in GC since Fri. nt laundry_queen Dec 2012 #109
I think it's a useless term, for starters. JohnnyLib2 Dec 2012 #9
+1 Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #34
Yep. It identifies the speaker's stance and very little beyond that. (nt) Posteritatis Dec 2012 #54
Your first case is NOT a gun nut tosh Dec 2012 #10
Anyone who wonders if they might be jberryhill Dec 2012 #12
Someone for whom Happiness Is A Warm Gun Fumesucker Dec 2012 #13
If you found yourself arguing in favor of guns last Friday DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #19
+1000 ellisonz Dec 2012 #59
If you ever find yourself saying that the answer to gun violence is MORE guns... renie408 Dec 2012 #21
I know gun nuts, and I know people who just happen to own guns WooWooWoo Dec 2012 #23
Anyone with more guns than you is a gun-nut... anyone with less or equal is not. OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #24
easy MichaelHarris Dec 2012 #26
Anyone who is unwilling or unable to relate guns to gun-related crime. Aristus Dec 2012 #31
I know hunters and ranchers who are gun nuts, and gun owners who Warpy Dec 2012 #35
Great list...... llmart Dec 2012 #85
It's a term like "communist sympathizer" or "fellow traveler." AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #37
Good unanswerable question. Another would be what is an "anti gun nut". One definition might be jody Dec 2012 #43
What's a justifiable fear ? orpupilofnature57 Dec 2012 #57
Anyone who is paranoid about government takeover, hordes guns and ammo for doomsday scenarios, and neverforget Dec 2012 #44
People who don't believe in any logical restictions on mzmolly Dec 2012 #47
Recognize a disease by its symptoms. ThatPoetGuy Dec 2012 #48
I own a single AK with a few 30-round magazines derby378 Dec 2012 #50
The shotgun's probably enough for some people to think that Posteritatis Dec 2012 #55
Is there any logical reason for you to own an AK + hi-cap mags? VOX Dec 2012 #69
I commend you. llmart Dec 2012 #88
A person that interjects guns into every conversation. orpupilofnature57 Dec 2012 #52
According to some posters if your own a gun you have blood on your hands and have a mental illness ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #58
Ted Nugent = Gun Nut Generic Brad Dec 2012 #73
+1000 orpupilofnature57 Dec 2012 #113
you are more likely to get struck by lightning than use a gun in self defense farminator3000 Dec 2012 #74
Just call them nuts. Save a word. gulliver Dec 2012 #75
ANYONE WHO POSTS IN THIS THREAD undeterred Dec 2012 #76
anyone? I have a feeling some will take issue. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #79
A gun nut is some one who acts like a right wing whack job only over guns. liberal N proud Dec 2012 #77
I'd nominate anyone who rushed out to buy guns after Friday Fresh_Start Dec 2012 #78
I don't own a gun, never have, HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #81
Nope if you are for the awb and strict magazine limits you're not a gun nut. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #82
+1 ellisonz Dec 2012 #96
This ought to be fun Android3.14 Dec 2012 #89
Love it, a whole new genre of "if you, you might be..." sanatanadharma Dec 2012 #105
Anyone who owns a gun but doesn't truly need it Dems to Win Dec 2012 #110
I would be considered a gun nut to most people on this forum. Dr_Scholl Dec 2012 #111
"For the Second Amendment" is rather glib, honestly. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2012 #112
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