Neighbors detail baiting plot in teen's death

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Press

Neighbors detail baiting plot in teen's death
By LISA BAUMANN, Associated Press | December 9, 2014 | Updated: December 9, 2014 8:20pm

MISSOULA, Mont. (AP) — Neighbors of the Montana man who fatally shot a German exchange student testified at the man's murder trial Tuesday that the man's girlfriend told them the couple planned to bait intruders in order to catch them in their garage.

Neighbor Jessica Bracey said she had a conversation with Markus Kaarma's girlfriend, Janelle Pflager, days before the April 27 shooting. She told jurors she is certain Pflager used the word "bait" in describing plans to catch intruders after their garage had been burglarized April 17.

"Yeah, we're going to bait them in and use baby monitors to catch them," Bracey recalled Pflager saying, adding the baby monitors would show live video of the garage and if anyone had ventured inside. "The term was bait. I know because it stuck in my head."

Prosecutors attempted to show a trap had been set for anyone who tried to burglarize Kaarma's garage, and that he was intent on harming that person before he shot and killed 17-year-old Diren Dede inside the garage. Kaarma is on trial for deliberate homicide.


Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/German-exchange-student-was-shot-in-arm-head-5944276.php

[Dont call me Shirley]

1. Kaarma has just created himself lifetimes of bad karma.

[Ed Suspicious]

2. I guess Kaarma's a bitch!

[951-Riverside]

3. Leave people's stuff alone.

I don't like that this young man died and I think the homeowner should have used pepper spray to blind his dumb ass but you've gotta be a major asshole to think its okay to sneak into people's homes. I don't care if he was an exchange student, he should have known better. The same goes for Haile Kifer and Nick Brady.

Stop breaking into people's homes!

I would never dream of sneaking into someone's home, ever but at the same time I don't think some idiot who does deserves the death penalty.

[geek tragedy]

4. Would you vote to convict of murder? nt

[Android3.14]

8. I wouldn't convict of murder

I wouldn't have baited and killed the thief, but people have the responsibility to defend their homes and family by whatever means possible, including with lethal force.

[LiberalElite]

10. Kill a guy looking for beer -

I'm law-abiding and I'm glad I'm not your neighbor.

[Android3.14]

11. Just stay out of people's garages, and you will be fine

I suspect you probably have neighbors currently with whom you would disagree more.

[geek tragedy]

15. Most people aren't bloodthirsty ammosexuals so you are wrong. nt

[Android3.14]

18. You determine right and wrong based on "most people"

How progressive of you.

[geek tragedy]

19. No, lacking basic respect for human life

does place one firmly in the wrong camp however.

[Android3.14]

21. I have enormous respect for human life

this isn;t about me and you have too little data to make broad generalizations about my values. That is not the issue. As I've noted elsewhere, I would not have done what this person did. Further, the person made poor choices in killing someone to defend his property.

Regardless.

The issue is the right to defend your home. While I disapprove of the tactics, my opinion is that he had a fundamental right to do so.

[geek tragedy]

24. They were luring people into an open garage

so they could shoot them.

That is not self-defense. Period.

It is unambiguously pre-meditated murder.

That you condone murder by falsely calling it self-defense tells us who you are.

[Android3.14]

25. Again, making personal attacks is simply a waste of time

We are having a discussion (at least I am), and making personal attacks or assumptions based on this brief interaction does little to advance that discussion. I would suggest that you would have a more fruitful exchange if you phrased the previous post as a question or a statement for which you provide support.

Self-defense, by definition, is "a countermeasure that involves defending oneself, one's property, or the well-being of another from harm." Even if they baited the person into the garage, it is a simple matter of observation to recognize that this is a "countermeasure" to defend their property. So it is self-defense.

The actual question is whether it is also murder.

Leaving a door partially open hardly constitutes luring a person in order to murder him or her. There needs to be more proof of actually carrying out a plan. A receipt for the baby monitors the wife mentioned in the conversation with the neighbor would be a boost to the prosecution. This shows your statement that this is "unambiguously pre-mediated murder" is incorrect and is actually something the jury shall determine.

Second, when someone robs you, the anger you feel will often prompt you to say things that you normally would not. The statements the wife made to the neighbor could easily be of that category.

Third, I do not condone murder. I've stated several times that the tactics were bad, and that I would not have used them. It's like gun ownership. I don't own a gun, and I think owning a gun is a waste of time whether it is for defense, hunting or entertainment. Yet I support a person's right to own a gun.

Finally, it will be interesting to see if the jury agrees with you or with me. So let's see what happens and leave the personal attacks to 11-year-olds.

[geek tragedy]

26. You are condoning murder, period.

They were not defending their property. They were using their property as a death trap because they wanted to kill someone.

Under your bizarre thinking, a spider is defending itself when a fly is caught in its web.

[Android3.14]

27. Condoning? That's the wrong word.

Self defense and homicide are not mutually exclusive. The police have accused the killer in this case of murder, but the jury has yet to determine if it was murder. Certainly it was homicide.

Under my "bizarre thinking", words have meaning. My experience tells me that few people ever see himself or herself as the bad guy. Everyone does the things he or she does for good reasons, whether they attack a stranger in an online discussion or a person ends up shooting a burglar in his garage.

Much more details of the first day of trial here.

What it sounds like to me is that the homeowner believed police were allowing these burglaries to occur, because some of the instigators were teenage children of affluent people in the town. The owner knew they would return, and was waiting for them because the police were not doing their job. He (perhaps mistakenly) knew that he was the only thing standing between them and another burglary.

This understandably made him upset. After all, he pays his taxes. He's not a criminal. The police have a responsibility to help him, but in this case it looks like they weren't going to do that.

If a person knows an attack is coming, knows that no one is going to defend his property, then he or she has a responsibility to deal with it.

For example, suppose bullies are going to attack your child at school. You went to the administration and they did nothing. Well, maybe they told you that your kid invites attacks, so maybe he should stop wearing that My Little Pony t-shirt. But you have a strong sense of justice, and you want your child to be free from submitting to the bullies. You tell him to go ahead and wear the damn shirt. But now you know the bullies are going to attack your child, and no one will be there to help.

So you teach your kid some self defense. You practice with your child. The next day, he wears the t-shirt. The bullies attack, and your child fights back, giving one of the kids a black eye.

Is that entrapment? Or is it preparation?

[LanternWaste]

17. Really? Avoid garages and one is safe from being shot?

Really? Avoid garages and one is safe from being shot? Contemporary news seems to be at odds with that.

[Android3.14]

22. Now there's an example of obtuse

Thanks.

[geek tragedy]

14. Your lack of regard for human life is duly noted. nt

[Android3.14]

20. "Duly noted"?

I see the thought police are active this afternoon. Shouldn't you be carrying a badge?

Making assumptions about my values when it comes to human life is a waste of your time. My regard for human life isn't the issue. The question was whether, if I were on this jury, I would convict for murder. The answer is no. A law that restricts a person from defending his or her home is a bad law, and I would vote accordingly if I were on the jury.

I certainly would not have done anything like this resident, but I believe an individual can and should use whatever means possible to defend his or her home.

The instance in the OP is an example of bad tactics by the resident, because he will probably lose his liberty as a result. But guess what? The dead guy won't be breaking into other people's homes, and I'd bet a dollar the local trend for doing this sort of thing came to an end.

[geek tragedy]

23. They were LURING people into the open garage.

For the sole purpose of having the opportunity to shoot them.

That is pre-meditated murder, not self-defense, your dissembling justification for that murder notwithstanding.

[christx30]

28. I walk in my neighborhood all the time

on the way home from work. I see people leave their garages open. I see TVs, fridges packed with beer, cars, ect. I don't go into these garages because, A, it's stupid to do that, and B, because I have respect for other people's property, and C, because I know I stand a very good risk of getting shot for tespassing.
If this kid had just walked past the garage and not trespassed, he would still be alive. Lure or no lure, if you do something criminal and stupid, you should be prepared to live (or not) with the consequences.

[geek tragedy]

29. Amazing that people are more outraged over a dumb kid walking into a garage for a beer

than they are at the person who murdered him.

Sick.

[christx30]

30. I'm not outraged about the trespassing.

I'm just saying that this kid made a choice to take something that didn't belong to him. And people are sick of their shit being stolen. No one has the right to steal. I agree this homeowner shouldn't have killed the kid. What he did was a crime and he should go to jail for it. But the kid is just as much to blame for his death as the homeowner. Stay away of other people's stuff, and you'll be ok.

[geek tragedy]

31. No, the kid is not just as much to blame. The person who shot him for emotional

gratification bears 100% responsibility.

Jeebus.

[christx30]

32. The kid wanted free stuff.

He saw an open garage and decided to take something that wasn't his. It shows a lack of respect for other people. If he kept walking and went to a 7-11 for his beer, he wouldn't have been shot by an angry homeowner.
Don't walk on the railroad tracks. Don't drink and drive. Don't play with poisonous snakes. Don't walk in the middle of the Interstate. Don't go onto someone's property and take shit. Would you be cool if you came out and found someone taking stuff from your garage? Would you run them off? Would you call the police? Would you tell them to help themselves?
The homeowner was an asshole for setting the trap. If I remember correctly, his home had been broken into a number of times. He was pissed and probably felt a little scared and violated. My girlfriend's car was stolen once, and when she got it back, she wouldn't drive for a few days because of the intrusion she felt. It's understandable to feel that way. But the kid was wrong in doing what he did, and he paid the price for it.

[Xithras]

16. "whatever means possible" is simply incorrect legally.

You have a right to apply the force needed to stop a crime from being prevented. Even in "stand your ground" and most Castle Doctrine states, you can't apply deadly force when a simple "Get out of here!" would have solved the problem.

Deadly force to protect a life is one thing. Deadly force to protect a can of beer in an open garage when there is no threat is another thing entirely.

[Tumbulu]

5. this was an open garage- not someone's home

there was no breaking and entering, the door was left open.

I agree that breaking and entering is a serious offense, but not something that warrants a death sentence.

[Baitball Blogger]

6. I suspect that tactic is far more common than many realize.

Crazy stupid things that neighbors do.

[davidpdx]

7. They wanted to play target practice with live targets

vile..................

[Mnpaul]

9. Byron Smith tried this in Mn.

Byron Smith will spend life in prison and pay restitution.

[Lurks Often]

12. I expect a guilty plea

based on Kaarma's statements to neighbors, intentionally leaving the garage door open and leaving items to entice a burglar is pre-mediated murder. Additionally there is nothing in the article that suggests Dede made any threatening move toward Kaarma, so the threshold of reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm does not appear to have been met.

[Sunlei]

13. They both planned a first degree murder

made a plan to kill and then carried that plan out.