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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDear Whiny White People: Great rant from a Native American Facebook friend
Dear Whiny White People:
When you can look at your family history and see where people of color kidnapped your ancestors and hauled them off in chains. You can be offended by the word cracker.
When you can look back and see where your ancestors were sold by people of color.
You can be offended by the word cracker.
When you can show where your ancestors were discriminated against by people of color because you were white. You can be offended by the word cracker.
When you can show how your ancestors were set upon with dogs and fire hoses by people of color. You can be offended by the word cracker.
When you can show that people of color voted and were kind enough to grant you rights. You can be offended by the word cracker.
When you can show that somehow your life hasn't been just a wee bit better than a person of color's just because you are white. You can be offended by the word cracker.
But until that time STFU
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Kurska
(5,739 posts)I mean obviously the best way to build consensus and community is to tell one side to STFU.
What do I know about discrimination. I'm just a gay jew. Deep down though I'm just another one of those ignorant crackers though, right?
Response to Kurska (Reply #1)
Post removed
Kurska
(5,739 posts)truth hurts, huh? huh? I find it a refreshing history course. Oh and by the way, race relations are not moving forward. SCOTUS is trying to put us back to the times mentioned in this post, Rand Paul and rethug radio and television ginning up the redneck and racist unwashed masses to hate every skin color non white. You got your LGBT rights and voice, people of color are losing theirs to racist crackers on SCOTUS and in many state houses. So please.
FreeState
(10,572 posts)LGBT people in America still do not have the same rights as other minorities, not even close.
like I said, the way minorities are losing theirs, your LGBT community has no worries. But this talk is a distraction from........yeah but if you're white, gay and male/female your right to vote has never been abridged and it is not facing further abridgement with SCOTUS turning back the clock to the 40's-50's when it was open season on minorities. Doesn't equate.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)but you have always been able to vote in every state of the union. Minorities cannot hide behind color. If shit hit the fan, you could. Doesn't equate.
FreeState
(10,572 posts)Quit trying to make this into something it's not. It's not a pissing match. Never mind the facts I could list if rights denied to LGBT Americans.
To imply all LGBT people can hide it if needs be is extremely naive, insulting and false. Your comments show an extreme lack of knowledge of LGBT history and current struggles.
course there are black gay. double whammy then. Never said there weren't? struggle on. good luck. move along, nothing to see here.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)Of course it's bogus to post one word titles that are meaningless.
Please stop doing it, heaven05.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)as a black lesbian, i find this deflection particularly offensive especially since a white gay male just recently told me that If all black people were as nice as me, he would talk to them 
let's not pretend all white gay americans are any more enlightened about racial issues than straight white americans. and let's further not pretend that white skin privilege does not apply to white gay people.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)is sexism in the LGBT community.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)when some white gay people claim they are the biggest victims on the planet, and don't acknowledge the gender, economic, race, etc, advantages that still apply to them. i am black, female, educated, middle class, lesbian, and i know i have advantages that other people who are uneducated and poor do not have...regardless of race and sexual preference.
my comments do not show naivete, are not false or insulting, they are the truth. Period. If you are white, male/female, gay, your rights are more entrenched and guaranteed than that of a black person. It's really that simple. Yeah I can get married, yet if SCOTUS says all minorities with brown skin are denied the right to vote, happened once before you know, I don't care how you want to cut it, you will get to vote if your skin is white no matter how gay you are. I have NO doubt about it.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)God knows our society is sick with racism but please don't perpetuate the mistaken notion that all white people arrived here of their own free will as voting citizens in good standing. Many thousands arrived here as forced exiles and indentured servants who, by the way, could be sold and certainly did not have the right to vote. Just because our classrooms paint all colonists as Pilgrims or founding fathers doesn't mean that was the real story, it's just the only one that was chosen as the official mythology. Little Janie Wilson probably had no idea her immigrant ancestors were sent over here with their faces deliberately mutilated and sold for $50 to some plantation owner on the Jersey shore. You'll never read about that in a history book. The point is, we all have different stories to tell and there is no single "white story" though none begins to compare with the black experience in America, not then and not now.
At a time when women's rights are also under attack and LGBTs are struggling for equality, I wonder why you would even bring up the civil rights movement of LGBTs in such a resentful way. I would celebrate any and all victories in the fight for equal rights for all citizens in this country. And I will continue to work towards that goal.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)forgive me I did forget about the indentured servant. I did not know about the mutilation as marking. Yet we do know that they could buy their freedom and melt into the general society sooner or later and that IS NOT minimizing what they had to go through to gain that freedom. LGBT rights are important. No doubt in my mind. Women's rights under attack is very important. Lot's of work still to do. Thank for a refreshing exchange. I learned something. Who says you can't teach an old dog.....
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)There's no way in hell I would ever begin to know what it's like to be black in America but the Zimmerman case is a big wakeup slap in America's face. You know, my partner said that on another forum she frequents, the only people who were shocked by the non-verdict were white, whereas her other friends actually expected it, were resigned to it. How dismaying and what an indictment that our society has still so far to go. The only way bigots will ever win is if they get oppressed minorities, women and the poor to fight over the scraps that fall from the table of those in power. We've got to stick together.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)the old divide and conquer trip huh. Well with aware people, that can't happen. 10-4 on sticking together.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)because they have white skin privilege and other non-black minorities have been more readily accepted by the larger society than black Americans. That is fact.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Nor will you read anything in my post that remotely suggests that.
Orrex
(63,215 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 11, 2013, 12:45 PM - Edit history (2)
I apologize to anyone whom I hurt or offended with my clumsy attempt at humor.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Response to hrmjustin (Reply #92)
Orrex This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to Orrex (Reply #90)
Zorra This message was self-deleted by its author.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)It took four amendments to rectify abridgements and the job is not done yet.
19th Amendment (1920): "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."
23rd Amendment (1961): provides that residents of the District of Columbia can vote for the President and Vice President.
24th Amendment (1964): "The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax."
26th Amendment (1971): "The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age."
Lots of white, gay, male and female people in those groups.
These days, voters who are white, gay, male or female are being denied the practical right to vote by all kinds of roadblocks and outright corrupt removal from voter rolls. It falls most heavily on the poor.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)You are absolutely correct about womens right to vote.
But to the best of my knowledge, the white male right to vote in the US has never been denied on the basis of them being white males. Individuals may have been denied the "practical right to vote" because they belong to some other group (ie poor, urban, youth, etc), but not on the basis of being white males. Is there any other group in the US that one can say the same about?
didn't think you would get an answer.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)I'd have to go do my research.
Abolition of property qualifications for white men, 1812-1860 — see: Jacksonian democracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_States
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)Being poor, sure. But never, to my knowledge, for being white or for being Male, in the USA.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)will never convince me of anything. Even if you are right I will not listen to you. White gay males and females, if not obviously gay,and in most cases if obvious, I imagine do vote WITHOUT out any problems. During the time blacks were denied the vote, gay white males had no problem voting. Still don't. All this BS you write, just that. Huh, who do you think you're fooling. Your M.O. is obviously laughable.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)No comment about you, but your one word subject line M.O. is laughable.
Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #230)
HangOnKids This message was self-deleted by its author.
sheshe2
(83,791 posts)a one word subject line MO. That is laughable.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)It seems you didn't even read the posts leading up to it or his other posts in this thread.
The poster made a whole series of posts with ridiculous one word titles that sabotage his flow that readers see when scanning the titles.
2013.
Are you stalking me?
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)voting rights until the VRA. And even then, well, you know the history (I hope).
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)the last thing we minorities need to do is engage in a pissing match, because rest assured,every right, and I do mean every right, the WASPs have given us, they can always take back. There are Wasp in the south who would gladly go right back to slavery if they could.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)no problem with me on what you wrote.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But I could add Jews and Irish and Italians and Poles to the list.
I might also remind you that Irish and Jews marched side by side with MLK.
The fight was never won, we do have a small group of scared people who are afraid of all minorities. That my friend includes LGBT Americans.
You can alienate potential allies...or wake the fuck up.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 8, 2013, 10:23 AM - Edit history (1)
I know who marched with MLK and some did die for the cause. I WILL NEVER FORGET, I also know who my allies are. Some LGBT people are, I am finding out more and more, just as racist as straight bigots also. I am the fuck awake. Potential allies? Maybe. It is not a small group. People and their sad attempts at minimizing. I bet if I walk next to your car to get in mine, you lock your door at seeing my brown skin. Happens all the time. Not being too sensitive, because I've sat in parking lots and watched white reaction to young blacks especially. White people aren't the only ones thinking out here, I AM THE FUCK AWAKE!!!!!!!thank you
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Regardless of melanin content.
And yes, racist white America is indeed a small group, who sadly happens to have political power, magnifying their influence. but they are a minority...it is such their fear...that they want you to hate me, and the other way around, just because you are black and I am white...never mind as an immigrant I have been challenged at the polls.
Never mind that as a Jew I can face the same hate from the exact same minority of white ignorant Americans...
But if you chose to make it all about skin color, I'm good... I can deal with that. The hope is not with you, but the kids I saw yesterday.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)what you say has merit and yes I do have hope in the children. Big hope. Yet for me it is true, I have never come to grips and accepted that whites made it about skin color, NOT ME. Always hurt me deeply to be judged by color. so don't make me feel that I'm wrong to react to white discrimination based on ones skin color. It is not a small problem in amerika today. Hell, I know what the Jewish people have faced and endured here and in Europe through many pogroms and holocausts. I have never minimized that experience, but in Amerika, as far as I'm concerned it has always been about race. My personal experiences have and do affirm that statement . Think what you please, with respect.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Why a house deed from La Jolla had prohibitions to sell to, forgive me I am quoting, "Negros, Jews and Irish."
We laugh with the owner, a holocaust survivor, because my husband falls in two of those groups, that we know off. One by birth, one by choice, since his father was adopted...
And if we are to overcome race...we need to not leave the past behind, but overcome it.
Look, my dad lost 50 relatives at Treblynka...before he died he forgave...the nightmares became less regular. Try that.
And let's continue the struggle for true equality...we all need to become survivors...
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I've studied that area intensely. Helped me understand the evil in the hearts of some. Bergen-belsen, triblynka, ravensbruk, auschwitz and many, many, more, both large and small, all very vicious and cruel. Can happen again. Bless your grandfather and I have forgiven also, just can't forget. People like you give give me a reason to hope that one day all this will be behind us. Yet with the SCOTUS we have, with people like zimmerman out there with guns, the general tenseness in our society, I feel I must remain very vigilant and aware.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It is the holocaust why I worked for the Red Cross in Mexico for 10 years...
Never again...to me means no more genocide, not group specific.
That is exactly what I mean about overcoming history.
And I know where we are as a nation is a precarious place, see that minority of racists, who still believe in this crap....will not let go easy.
In my ideal world...the US needs a truth and reconciliation commission, and it needs to stop with sanitizing the history. Efforts to remove references to slavery (and we should add white slavery to it, indentured servants) are part of this effort to keep groups down. It is, you see...it wasn't that bad...well, yes, yes it was.
It is as toxic as the more recent holocaust denial, which started as early as 1947.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I'm not six feet under yet, so the struggle continues against all injustice. Mexico huh. That's a violent and cruel place now.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)per a prior post, a truth and reconciliation commission. That would be revealing. I'm game. Set em all over amerika and make boner pay for it.
Just joking, kinda.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)hope so. That viciousness there is insane. Decapitated heads, male and female in the middle of roads as warnings to rival cartel members. Just viciously insane. Yes this type of cruelty gets to me. I do think we as humans can do better, just too many don't want to.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Fricking ridiculous...and you are totally clueless about your own prejuidices.
I'm not. I am VERY aware of them. 
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)I don't think many black Americans are. And we also know and appreciate how Jewish Americans, in particular, joined with us, some of them even losing their lives for civil rights causes. No one is denying that. However, to deny that these groups have been able to blend in and assimilate because they benefit from white skin privilege is simply to deny the truth. I am not suggesting that hard work and determination are not factors. Of course they are. And Jewish Americans and other minority groups have made significant contributions to this society in every facet of it. (As have black Americans.)
If I am a black LGBT and I go to vote, I don't have to declare my sexual orientation, but it is very clear that I am black, and therefore, easier to identify me, to have preconceived notions about me, and to deny me the right to vote.
I hope that makes sense.
If not, read Tim Wise's writing on the subject:
http://thesunmagazine.org/issues/403/by_the_color_of_their_skin
Here's an excerpt that is pertinent to this discussion:
Cook: Why do you think so many white Americans deny the existence of privilege?
Wise: One reason is that most people want to believe they are living in a just society. Another is that to acknowledge the truth would call upon us to make some tough changes, and people are afraid to give up their advantage. It can also be psychologically harmful to confront the fact that one is benefiting unfairly from the system. The first thing whites tend to do, when they open their eyes to their own privilege, is fall into guilt and self-flagellation, and that isn’t helpful. This becomes another reason not to confront the truth.
White denial isn’t new. It has always existed. In the early sixties, when we were an apartheid nation, polls found most whites didn’t think there was a problem. In 1963 two-thirds of whites thought blacks were treated equally. Every generation of white Americans, by and large, hasn’t believed the problem to be real.
What is so disturbing to me about white denial is that we are denying the reality of other people’s experiences. We are saying to people of color that what they think they experience is not what they actually experience. It’s true that not every allegation of racism is well-founded. People can make mistakes of interpretation, and none of us is a perfect chronicler of his or her life. But white deniers are saying that people of color are hypersensitive, that they overreact and “play the race card.”
More at link...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I know that...but, I know I have personally been challenged at the polls...I carry a passport to the booth these days because of that. I am as white as they come, and have a very common British name.
You know why? I have an accent.
You know the best part? It did not happen in the south.
I will repeat what I wrote, we have a minority of whites...who want to keep the other under their thumbs. It is a race thing..it is a eugenics thing, and these folks, who sadly have political power...are your and my enemy. I don't mince words when I say that.
I recommend you read of the two exchanges with him.
And yes, if you go to a store with more melanin content your chances of being followed by security are that much higher...we know this...friends of hours have shown us this...you know how fast they start when they hear me talk to my mom in Spanish, or talk to my husband?
This is the problem. Creating walls. It helps this minority of power hungry...racists.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Your not being able to vote due your British accent is one thing. I understand that, especially working with a good number Brits here in D.C. who have been working on obtaining citizenship for years.
But there's another side to this: There are Hispanic Americans--born and raised here with no accent--who are routinely harassed and accused of being "illegals" when they are as American as American pie. They are denied their citizenship rights. That is racism no matter which way the pie is sliced. Many Hispanic Americans are stopped while driving or walking, prevented from entering certain places, and are racially profiled.
I guess this is to say that we have much more in common than we think.
The underlying problem in my mind is that we must start to listen to each other's stories and not be so quick to dismiss them.
I appreciate that you understand what I face on a daily basis. It doesn't matter that I sit here with two Masters Degrees and a doctorate from Ivy League institutions, and yet, I can still expect to be followed when I go into a shopping mall. Of course my parents and their parents and their parents before them had it much worse than I, but still...
We must be willing to listen to these stories and learn from them.
The Trayvon Martin case has affected me very deeply as I'm sure it has many people, particularly in the black community. What do we tell our children? How should we teach them to behave in public, not just when confronted by authorities, but by ANYONE who could potentially cause harm? What should they wear? How should they speak? Should they run? Walk? Scream? Remain calm? Call the police, lest the police believe them anyway?
These conversations that we have on a daily basis with our children are not had by white families (at least not to my knowledge). And so, in order to bring awareness, our white friends who say they truly care about racial progress and justice must at least be willing to hear those stories and not becoming defensive or dismissive of them. This is not about white guilt. It's about learning and understanding, or at least trying to.
On the other hand, I am seeing that the black community is making tremendous progress on the LGBT issue. And as a proud daughter of a gay father, I am thrilled that that progress is moving faster than I ever thought it would. And say what you will about Barack Obama, but I do think his coming around to support marriage equality has been a major catalyst for that, along with the support of many in the black clergy, political circles, power levers, advocacy and education.
We still have a long way to go on all of these issues, but I do think we have come such a long way.
Now the challenge is not allowing the Teabaggers and the racists who are fighting to the death to keep legalized bigotry intact to win. All they want to do is divide and conquer us, and we cannot allow that to happen!!!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Spanish accent. I am Hispanic, by crazy ins definitions.
As to trayvon Martin, read this interview with John Lewis...my questions were hardly accidental
http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/13635
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)From today's WaPost, here's an op-ed from the great Jonathan Capehart re: the Ebony "I am Trayvon" covers...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/08/08/no-ebony-and-ivory-response-to-we-are-trayvon-covers/
Don't read the comments. They will depress you.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)and they did. Sad at the vitriolic ignorance displayed. Yet glad to be able to understand my unease at the direction of race relations in this country. Thank you.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)When John Lewis said that young people today cannot even conceive "race," that to me was both good and bad news. It's good news because it means that we've come a long way where skin color may matter less. However, it scares me because young people should understand that history and never lose sight of it. They should study it and not allow it to be revised or contrived, especially not in the hands of Teabagging right wingers who are now writing these textbooks. It is important that we continue to have these conversations because racism is still very much alive, and still pervasive in this society, albeit more subtle. The bigger problem is that racism has become more institutionalized so much so that we may not fully recognize it or realize its impact (e.g. in the prison system, the justice system, school system, etc.)
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Which touched my family personally...never again.
That is why I see racists as enemies.
But that generational change also scares this small group. Why integrated schools were fought and white flight came to be.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)are in a rush to rewrite history and try to propagandize their children with this anti-government crap (which is really racialized policies); they want you to get your guns and hunt people down even if there's no reason to. The anti-choice movement is heavily steeped in the eugenics goal of producing more purely white babies; the pro-gun movement really about killing minorities if you have to, going after government if necessary; voter ID/anti-citizenship is really about forcing historically disadvantaged groups back into second class citizenship status. Jewish Americans are included in this; they are a minority group that typically votes for Democrats. White seniors who live in urbanized areas and thus tend to vote Democratic are also targeted. Anyone who could potentially vote for and thus elect another minority or woman representative, Senator, or president cannot be allowed to vote.
That's why it's so important for all of us Democrats to unite.
I've said this so many times here on DU that I sound like a broken record, but I'll say it again:
I know that many people are upset that our elected leaders aren't as liberal or progressive as we would have preferred. And I know that many are disappointed in Obama and the Democratic Party leadership. However, we have to accept that the beauty of being a member of the Democratic Party is that we allow liberals, moderates, and conservatives to participate. That is the beauty of this political party but it is also its curse and may become its downfall if we allow it.
And that's why the Republicans are always trying to create division. Division whether it's between the Obama camp and the Clinton camp. Division, whether it's between Jews and Blacks. Blacks and Hispanics. Blacks and the LGBT community. White working class and black working class. Muslims and Jews or whatever. The goal is to divide this party. And while we're divided, they're making plans to unite and galvanize their right wing agenda and get their people to the polls. They're running candidates at the local and state levels and dominating state legislatures, governors' mansions, judgeships and school boards.
We do have a choice: we can either remain divided and keep fighting each other; or, we can unite against a common enemy who is hellbent on moving this country backwards to pre-Civil War society or whatever it is they want from us. Choice is ours.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)We have a dynamic of power elites who work for those at the top, they are part of the same club, versus the base, ironically in both parties. The GOP has made promises it never kept...and so have the dems.
I have a nuanced view of politics that comes from yes...a tad of Mexican politics, including the dedazo...which in the US is far less obvious. But the talk of HRC right now, before 2014...is exactly that dynamic at play. I'm just waiting for this to be less nuanced and a regular destape.
And by the way, I'm part of the largest political group in Cali, the decline to state voter. The...both party elites are an issue...is a growing problem for both parties.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)While I do agree that both political parties have members who are in bed with corporations and the power elite, I DO NOT, however, believe that the degree of imbededness is the same.
In other words, yes, there are corporatists in the Democratic Party. I won't deny that the DLC has done more damage to the party in the last 20 years than any one Republican could ever do. Agreed.
However, two things:
1. The DLC is no longer around. The DLC dissolved a few years ago and is no longer a viable organization. And even better, at least in many of the Blue states like yours and mine (I'm in Maryland), most of the DLC Democrats have been defeated and replaced in Congress by more progressive Democrats.
2. There are more progressives in the Democratic Party than there are Blue Dogs or DLCers. The Progressive Caucus is the largest caucus in the Democratic Party. Admittedly their voices are not as loud and they are not as visible. Now, a lot of that has to do with a corporate owned and operated media that seldom allows for the Keith Ellisons and the Alan Graysons of the world to be heard in mainstream format, unless of course, they disagree with Obama. Well, then, they're front and center on the Sunday morning talk shows.
The bigger problem is money in politics. Citizens United is the biggest blow to democracy, which has made it all the more critical that we have to work with the Democratic Party from within. Continue to run as many progressive Democrats at the local and state levels as we possibly can. We'll continue to lose elections here and there, but it can be done. It's happening in California. It's happening here in Maryland and in other progressive blue states dominated by Democrats. It'll take some time because demographic change will take time.
At some point the corporatists will have no choice but to move if they are outnumbered.
That's why I have always yelled at the top of my lungs for progressives to get involved in grassroots politics--at the local level. That's where the real power is. That's how Donna Edwards became the star that she now is in Maryland, and she's been one of the most effective progressives in Congress. It takes time.
Progressives need to learn to be a little more patient. The wingnuts are. They patiently worked and waited nearly 30 years, slowing building up their power levers and running wingnuts for local offices for the last 20 years. When Gingrich assumed the Speakership in 1995, that was his goal: to concentrate on the local and state levels, ushering in an entire generation of young, conservative stalwarts, grooming them for office, for judgeships, for advocacy, hell, that's essentially how ALEC finally became the powerhouse that it did. ALEC was originally made up of very conservative members of state houses, both Republicans and Democrats. But over the years, the organization became so conservative and moved so far to the right that eventually all the Democrats left and now there's this unholy alliance between the conservative state legislators, right wing advocacy and think tanks, mega-corporations, and ultra-wingnut think tanks (Heritage, AEI) backed by ultra-wingnut corporatists KKKoch Bros., Adelson, and others. Now, again, it took 20, 30, 40 years to build this ultraconservative empire and use it to dominate politics and now our entire economic system. Conservatives have been patient. And many of them have succeeded in propagandizing the American public--and even Democrats--with its anti-government rhetoric.
Liberals, on the other hand, are not patient. We whine. We cry. We complain when we don't see change right away! It irritates me. Change never comes quickly. Change is almost always incremental, piecemeal--a very very slow process. Conservatives seem to know and understand this, and they don't care how many election cycles they lose because they stay busy thinking 5, 10 years ahead.
The redistricting scandal in Texas is a great example. Tom DeLay set that in motion when the Democrats and the rest of the country weren't even thinking about the 2000 or 2010 Decennial Census. Republicans were already setting in motion how they were going to have an impact on the voting process through redistricting, since they could already project (as any demographer or statistician can) changes in population.
Citizens United--already set in motion years before it happened. And when it did, it left Democrats dumbfounded, mouths agape. The stage was already set years earlier. Anti-abortion laws. Again, ALEC, state legislatures were already working behind the scenes for many years crafting legislation. All they needed was more wingnut Republican legislator and governors elected to state houses to ensure these extreme conservative laws could take effect. Stand Your Ground laws--the first one propagated in Florida in 2005--again, years in the making although conservative Democrats were onboard with Republicans. ALEC, NRA made it a reality in other states, mimicking the FL legislation, etc.
Anyway, I hope you see my larger points.
The Democratic Party has some not-so-good people in it--those who don't have the party or the country's best interests at heart. They are bought by corporations, just as much as the Republicans are.
But, there are differences in terms of degree. The Democratic Party will never have an equal amount of corporate backing that Republicans have. The Democratic Party--as a whole--doesn't have that kind of corporate power, at least not to the same degree as the Republicans. We just have to get rid of those bad apples and replace them with as many progressive ones as we can.
Easier said than done. And it'll take some time to achieve.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)My whole delegation, republicans and dems voted to defeat the Anash ammendment...so no, that dog don't hunt here.
The reason the DLC was dissolved was the takeover at the top of the party was complete.
I will add, every seventy five years the parties switch...in my view the dems are becoming the party of business, the old coalition is mostly shattered and waiting for the death of the republicans and the rise of a new labor party, whatever name it takes.
A few third party candidates winning will be he sign the 21st century Granger rebellion is afoot.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I enjoyed you two.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)I just don't think it's as dire as that.
I guess I have hope because the changing electorate will only allow the move to the right to go so far. This country is not as conservative as I thought it was or as it used to be.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The ruling elite is.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)of social consciousness will eventually manifest itself in the electorate and prompt the grassroots to act in their own best interests. Why we're not marching in the streets, I don't know. And that's because we haven't reached that level of consciousness yet. I'm not sure what its going to take. I think the younger generations may be the catalyst.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The sequester is creating to a lot of non reported anger...for example
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)stop our remaining furlough days. When I talked to my friends over at EPA, they too only have one more furlough day as opposed to the scheduled 3 more remaining days. So, our unions are at work. I'm not sure what we'd do without them. Not sure what's going on at other agencies, some of which had no furlough days, others of which had as much as 20 (DOD, for instance).
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I really enjoyed you two and links provided. good reads.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It took a tad not to go tongue tied, when we met Lewis.. that is where that pesky history degree helps, and thinking what question to ask for over 24 hours.
We need to have these conversations.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Our families go way back and we all revere John Lewis. What a hero! What a great, great man!! 
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)We gave him all the photos we took at Comicon...
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)And here I am all covered with thumbprints hiding out in your thread.
Thanks for having a civil conversation about race, the first one I have seen on DU today.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and after interviewing Lewis I figured we all need to change our approach to it, and do not let emotion take over.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Thanks for putting me in my place, I'll be sure to never forget that though I don't have all my rights. Other people have it so much worse so I should just sit down and shut up.
said or even implied. Your rights battle is ongoing. Nothing different with that than a black person fighting resurgent Jim Crow mentality. Quit trying to twist my words.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I live in Florida, what LGBT rights do I get? I can get fired from my job for being gay and I can get kicked out of my apartment for being gay. You can argue that a gay person in florida has LESS legal protection from discrimination than a person of color. Now you can argue black people still face more discrimination, but the fact remains that if I am discriminated against in most cases I have zero legal recourse.
And I still can't get married.
You should seriously consider educating yourself about the status of LGBT people in America.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 7, 2013, 05:07 PM - Edit history (1)
heaven05
(18,124 posts)it, I got work to do, research.
So do you.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I'm willing to study and try to understand all injustice, I just have my area of special concern. All injustice is wrong, to LGBT or any minority. It's got to be overcome. Hopefully, one day. I'm 65 and fear I will be long dead and gone before that happens. But not dead yet, and yes I can still fight.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Gays and all other minorities are allies in a fight against a society that on the whole isn't fair to them. There is no need to determine who has it worse or who is really the most hated. The battle isn't over until everyone is judged based on the content of their character and not all the other peripheral b.s.
Anything that divides or plays one side against the other is just playing into the hands of people who don't like either.
That is my view of it.
I'm sorry for the previous misunderstanding.
discourse, to me, shows the importance of the fact that common ground can and must be found. I agree. You have my apology.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)And for that I also apologize.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts) Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)more. That would help.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)So fucking shallow and shows a complete lack of understanding with respect to reality.
"You got your LGBT rights and voice, people of color are losing theirs to racist crackers on SCOTUS and in many state houses. So please."
heaven05
(18,124 posts)your faux outrage is noted and dismissed.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)" your LGBT community has no worries"
You are the one displaying uncontrollable and ignorant rage throughout the thread.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)not to mention other travesties being applied to people of color in America. That's not the question of the moment, though, is it? The question of the moment is is it ok or even desirable to call white people crackers.
Bryant
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)This individual seems to have gone after the LGBT community. Even going as far as to say " your LGBT community has no worries".
I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to call me Maam or Ms. if they do not know who I am. Why would someone want to call me a cracker. I think it says way more about them than it does me.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)with the other posters upthread. It's a valuable read and lesson if you're inclined.
I, too, reacted quickly before reading the entire exchange...
It appears to me that we all could use some listening and understanding on these issues.
Our stories are important here. All stories. We should be open to listening to them.
I love how heaven05 and the other posters were able to resolve this conflict without it continuing throughout this thread. We could all learn a lot from them here on DU.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Yes, they did work it out.
" had already resolved these disagreements"
Not an accurate statement.
Good on them in the end. Not sure why you posted this long after.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Looks like you're still annoyed, so I'll move along.
Rebellious Republican
(5,029 posts)“People fail to get along because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they have not communicated with each other.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)those crackers. 
Rebellious Republican
(5,029 posts)I believe in human beings, and that all human beings should be respected as such, regardless of their color.
Any Idea? 
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Malcolm X after returning from Mecca. I forget the year now.
mstinamotorcity2
(1,451 posts)a little Salty
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Because white people were never slaves....right?
need a refresher course. Oh never mind, probably be lost on you.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Not at all! The history of slavery.... not just in the US but all over the world from ancient time on... would be most interesting.
But I'm not gonna call some post on DU a course on anything!
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I hope you get to studying. Self preferred ignorance is not pretty. DU gets one thinking and yes with the proper links, books ect can lead to learning. What this OP started has been great!!!!! I have enjoyed some of the enlightenment I've gotten because of this OP and people I've exchanged words and thought with. Some real understanding happened for me about the current state of thinking by all types of americans concerning race relations in Amerika.....because of this OP. If you can't get any more out of this OP short of your outrage at the word 'cracker', well........
The truth sometimes hurts but you'll get over it. I'm done with you
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Where did I say anything about the word "cracker"?
Stop making up stuff.
Remember.... the word "slavery" is not defined as "Enslavement of blacks in 18th and 19th century America".
heaven05
(18,124 posts)laughable ignorance.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)But I didn't mention the word "cracker" (you did) nor do I care about it.
And where do you see ignorance, laughable or not?
What I am doing is talking straight.... without emotion as much as I can. Slavery, like religion or politics, are emotional subjects and therefore subject to much illogic and the drawing of conclusions.... like your posts. One must make an effort to see that.... if one cares about the truth.
The Wikipedia article on "Slavery in the US" is interesting... but you'll notice it's only about a certain country at a certain time.
have no clue. While professing intellect you show ignorance. typical.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)It appears that you think that minorities cannot be racist.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)period. Like it or not, agree or not, don't matter. Better learn about the power of systemic oppression before you spout off on what you really don't know. The ability to be racist is the power to enforce oppressive laws and systems. The oppressed cannot do that. Done with you.
brewens
(13,596 posts)Of course it never gets over really. Suppose I could rob a bank and get away with it for years. Then I begin to spend the money and they catch on to me. Hey, that was a long time ago! Can't we just move on and let me keep all the money?
malaise
(269,054 posts)Great rant
zimmermans side, you're right. Thanks for reminding me.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)I disagree with this OP completely.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Same thing as LGBT rights - either you see fellow human beings as equals, or you don't.
And if by "one side" you mean white Americans who bitch about affirmative action and "reverse racism" then I have no problem with telling those folks to STFU. Why should we indulge their attempts at reinforcing white supremacy?
valerief
(53,235 posts)
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)If as a privileged white American you can't see the obvious truth in the sarcasm, well maybe you should take off the blinders.
Look at it like a political cartoon. Maybe it won't hurt so much.
Bunnahabhain
(857 posts)As a descendant of the Highland Clearances I think he needs to understand there are different flavours of "white" people.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Who the hell even classifies themselves that way as a monolith, people tend to be more ethnic centered when thinking of themselves rather than skin colour unless they are the race fanatics.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Dumb crackers the lot of them..
a matter of voting rights. Something you don't have to worry about.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)It's ridiculous to post one word titles that are meaningless.
Please stop doing it, heaven05.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)no, no, no, and no again, bernardo
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)nyet
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)races, not just people of color. Many of the same tactics they are using to try to suppress votes from the African American community also impact other groups.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)who else? Not being facetious, curious so I can research.
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)hours so that working people will have a tougher time getting to the polls is one tactic. Requiring state issued ID's is another. It's harder for a poor elderly person of any race to go out and get one of the ID's. Closing down precincts in poor neighborhoods and increasing them in the suburbs is another tactic.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)aware of all that. Last election put it all out front, and this next one is going to be twice as hard on folks like that and all brown skin people..... no doubt in my mind.
sheshe2
(83,791 posts)They are hell bent to suppress voting rights of people of color. PERIOD. They are the biggest Dem voting block.
They want poor whites in rural states to stay dumber than a brick. That is why they voted Betsy Wetsy DeVos as Sec. of Edumacation. ( misspelled intentionally.) She is as dumb as they are and in no way qualified for the job. She wants guns in schools in case of a grizzly bear attack??!!! The Gopeeeee want them dumb enough to vote time and again against their self interest. They seem to be winning.
PS...Betsy Wetsy was a name of a doll from the 50's. The doll's special feature was simulating urination after a bottle was poured into her open mouth. Perfect for our new Sec. of Ed.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"no white person has ever been treated unfairly by society..." with the relevant qualifier 'systematically" it's rather accurate.
However, leaving out the relevant qualifier is (at best) misleading, or (at worst) merely continuing the same problem... if done with purpose.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)
Or of white gays or of Jews (mostly white).
I'm glad to know that the decades of discrimination and even laws aimed to suppress those groups were entirely imagine.
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)That only came in the years after WWII. Even now there are arguments (mostly from white supremacists) that European Jews aren't really white. Apparently Greeks are suspect as well (and probably Italians).
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)If that sign was not universal, it only reflected the views of some jerks.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Hence the widespread discrimination against all of the above, which I would never seek to minimize - any more than I would try to minimize the discrimination (past and present) faced by Asian-Americans, Latinos, LGBT people, or anyone else.
The difference is that "white people" per se (as a class) have never been systematically discriminated against (by nonwhites) in American society.
Bunnahabhain
(857 posts)to really paint those broad brush strokes.
that white skin color afforded rights and privileges denied to others of a different race. So yes the white race was monolithic when it came to expecting, as a birth right, privileges and rights denied others of color. Historic, ignorant fail.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Is a waste of time and energy.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)For sure they hate Jews and Catholics, maybe others as well.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Hell even people within the ethnic groups further divide themselves, i dont get this thougjt process that thinks all white people stand as one crap.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)My great-great grandmother was Oglala Sioux. They are different from the Yankton Sioux, and the Santee Sioux, etc. There are even different dialects.
They never collectively or individually asked for any Native American spokesman.
For all we known, the poster's facebook friend could just be a "virtual" friend who might not be a Native American at all.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Either tribal or geographical. I just think the op and the facebook prat have no idea that bigotry is bigotry no matter which way it goes.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)... don't even know what the "Highland Clearances" were about. Nor about what was done to Covenanters.
Bunnahabhain
(857 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)doesn't equate. Shouldn't have had to get my head busted to vote in corrupt elections, I did. Shouldn't had murderers killing people trying to vote and gain civil rights. Little girls shouldn't have had to die in a church bombing in Birmingham because people wanted the same rights as whites.and shouldn't be losing those rights again. A white person, male, has never had to fight for the right to vote.
They had this little thing called the Revolution to over throw a Monarchy. Then they got to vote.
please spare that BS. Yet those very same white males fighting for their god-given rights? Most held other human beings in cruel bondage and servitude. And those slaves would not get full white man's rights for 200 more years. Doesn't equate.
I was just responding to your statement that no White man had ever had to fight for the right to vote. I did not equate anything with anything.
Throughout time immemorial men have always had to fight for the right to vote, no matter the color of their skin. Most societies started as Monarchies and revolution was the only way out of it. That is why voting is so precious and should always be defended and protected by everyone for everyone.
that is fine. Yet amerikkka is what the poster is referring to, and amerikkka is basically a culturally backward, racist and by and large ignorant society of people scared to death of the 'minority'
. I lived here long enough to know the poster was making a true point based on where minority rights are headed these days.
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)Someone outside a certain grouping of people is trying to define what another group should find offensive. I am pretty sure you do not want White people to define what you find offensive. If we all do not stop none will. Throwing hand grenades usually gets return fire.
people always have defined me in what I might find as an offensive manner. An offensive manner. Does the nword fit that offensiveness? Been used since before 'cracker'. When the klan was shooting up my grandfathers house and wounding my grandmother, according to my grandfather, "those cowards got to running when he started shooting back at the crackers", his quote. Spanish-American war vet, Kettle Hill not teddy's san juan cake walk. Would you like for me to go into what those cowards were shouting to my grandfather? Shouting why? shooting why? because "that nigger had too much land.". Direct quote among many. Please spare me any outrage at the word cracker. People been throwing hand grenades at me every since I've been black and yeah, you're right, I have been returning fire. Any questions?
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)That African Americans were incorrectly and negatively defined by White people, and it was not proper then and is not proper now.
It is right and proper that you fight that fight. Then how can it wrong when I fight not to be called a cracker, since I am not one, never have been, and never will be. It is an improper and negative stereotype that all White people harbor ill will to African Americans and pro-actively work to denigrate and stifle the African American race.
The saddest part of your story is those stupid Klansman let race blind them so badly. If you were to list your Grandfather's accomplishments on paper without a trace of what his heritage was, they would look at it and know it is the classic American success story.
Good and Honorable Service to his Country in Armed Conflict. Pulling up his boot straps and working his ass off for his little piece of the world to raise his family. Protecting all that he had with everything that he had. That is the greatness of simple men of all races in this country that is not told. Just because of his race those idiots were blinded to even their own ideology of a good American.
You do not have to tell me what they were shouting. We are unfortunately all to aware of what hatred and venom was (is) spewed at African Americans in this country.
When I ask you not to call me Cracker it is not because I am trying to hide some hidden agenda. It is because it is not true.
As we are both Combat Vets, we both know that you return fire after you have located the enemy firing at you. I am not firing at you, but calling me cracker is mistakenly thinking I am.
As we also both know, we have served with all kinds of races and put our asses and lives in their hands. Seen the best of them and sometimes the worst. I like to think I showed my best. That is how I would like to be defined.
We're on the right path toward an understanding. I will have to give your words much thought and reflection. Thank you, and I would have your back, foxhole or patrol, anytime, anyplace. 
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)with a fellow American who's family has given much to OUR Country.
I have given a lot of thought and reflection to some of those points I made.
The actions of MLK, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, and the Titans of the Civil Rights Movement. As well as us everyday folks.
Their deeds and actions in the face of overwhelming danger. Giving their all even knowing that they may pay the ultimate sacrifice in the face of a wrong so great they could not ignore it.
Those are the actions of True American Hero's, how could anyone ignore that those are traits that we hold dear among all others in this country just because the color of their skin. How sad that someone' s hatred blinds them to such Noble deeds by American Hero's.
They are ones who are diminished by their thinking, they are missing out, because those singular actions by those Great Men have made this a better country.
So when they tried to diminish your Grandfather, they were actually doing the reverse and diminishing themselves because he made this a better country.
So shall we all together.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)Bunnahabhain
(857 posts)or really, really intellectually limiting. I have my hunch which one is correct...
heaven05
(18,124 posts)it's comforting for you I can see. Yeah you had a revolution to be free of other white men(british). Yet your revolutionary ancestors and leaders held people of color in cruel bondage and servitude, who were killed on the whim of massa, for 200 more years. You can try to minimize the truth and me, yet your ignorance of reality it obvious. I don't have to hunch that.
Bunnahabhain
(857 posts)I'm Canadian. Tell me more about what you're saying...
And even if I was American, what would make you so sure my ancestors owned slaves? Are you so poorly informed that you think the majority of white folks owned slaves? You think Hamish got off the boat and was issued two slaves and a mule?
The more you say the more uneducated you sound. I would stop now vs. doubling down more on stupid.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 8, 2013, 12:55 PM - Edit history (1)
you shouldn't be in this conversation. What you jump in because white privilege and entitlement is questioned? Today, in America, black teenagers are getting killed for nothing. Same as a slave, although that was for disobeying massa. Your ignorance and stupidity can be excused. You're a Canadian. I am quite educated and by your post, for many more years than you. what 1st grade for you?
Response to heaven05 (Reply #82)
Post removed
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Though we mayhave a few who have been enslaved
Bunnahabhain
(857 posts)The modern term is "marriage."
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)me that BS
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Sotf
(76 posts)... and how you see yourself, others and all of history is through a prism of race.
Try it without and you'll gain a new understanding.
if the white racist hadn't made race something ugly and divisive, maybe, just maybe we would not have made such an issue out of race. The Amerikkkan white racist has given and keeps giving an understanding to people of color every day.
Sotf
(76 posts)Or just anyone with US citizenship and a certain pigment count?
let me see. Your question? No merit. 
Sotf
(76 posts)How interesting...
Response to heaven05 (Reply #37)
ieoeja This message was self-deleted by its author.
appreciate that. The KKK shot my grandmother and tried to kill my grandfather a vet of the cuban conflict. He shot back and we used to laugh at my grandfather describing those "ignorant crackers" breaking their cowardly necks getting out of there. My grand fathers offense? Owning too much land for a nigger. Direct quote. They never got to burn a cross and never did. I'm proud of him and my whole family. I know of Irish problems in amerika. Had an Irish girlfriend once. Those problems weren't pretty. I also know of early american Irish history in New York. That wasn't pretty either. Have a good one.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)A few of those dead people came from the north and died in a lonely tract of road.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)forever in memory. Quite a few died in the fight for equal rights and I would never forget or minimize that fact. Viola Luizzo died at the hands of the KKK after the Selma to Montgomery march I WILL NEVER FORGET! But the resurgent racism, is I'm sure responsible for the original post. Hell, I'm worried about some jackass out in public not liking my skin color and acting out.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Especially the young, they got a lot less of these serious problems.
I cover my east county...I can tell the damn difference between the older folks, and the young 'uns.
Yesterday I covered a vigil for a missing white girl. The vigil was organized by her white, brown and black classmates.
Only reason I mention it, is you made it relevant. One of her black classmates, I don't have the tape on me, or would quote directly, spoke of how the community is coming together...as one.
You had a bunch of media people on the edge of tears...and we try not to do that. (Ok we do it at home...after I cried a tad I wrote the story)
So we need to reach across cause you know what? That small group of haters is counting on all of us starting to hate each other.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)problem with that one
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Highlanders were seen as less than human, denied the rights of Anglo-Saxon Protestants, murdered with impunity, robbed, raped, and when they fought back, forceably cleared from their ancestral lands and shipped like cattle to the Americas. Once here many were indentured or used as cannon fodder in the wars with Native Americans.
So yes there is some historical equity. There are others, including the Irish, Germans, and eastern Europeans. The difference is that these early 'immigrants' were able to integrate into the larger society by changing their names and customs due to their color. What is pathetically sad is that the descendents of these same people, many of whom were horribly treated, are some of the very same that seek to deny modern people of color their rights. In that you are very correct. The irony is tragic.
I think it is best to discuss these issues in a modern context. Are people of color still discriminated against? The answer is a resounding "yes." Are we moving backwards instead of forwards? Yes. But this will not stand. As a 'white' person, I understand that my days as a majority are numbered, and that really doesn't bother me. I think it will be a good thing. What will go badly is if bigoted idiots are not relieved of their power. Down that road is a tragedy waiting to happen.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)of their power and guns. forgive I digress. Thanks for that, I got some research to do.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Most fought the rebellions with leather armor, swords, and shields against ranked British redcoats.
They were largely poor, malnourished, and sorely mistreated by their southern 'lords.'
It truly is depressing stuff. Definitely not as depressing as the African Slave trade which was a travesty of unbelievable proportions, or the genocide of Native Americans, some of whom I am proud to claim as my ancestors.
My literature is a bit thin on African American issues, but I can definitely recommend several books on the Highland clearances and Native American removal if you are interested.
Take care.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)leave them anytime, I love to learn, still, at 65. Yep an old dog can learn.
Since I hate google, I will duckduckgo the highlanders. That was that movie with Mel Gibson, right. Braveheart? They were Scottish. Same people?
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)who happen to be white - which has been commonplace throughout this country's history, from non-landowning white men being denied the vote, to Irish and Italians who are considered "white" now, to religion, sexuality, disability, mental illness, etc. - with systematic discrimination against white people as white people, which has never happened in American society.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)
REP
(21,691 posts)People ... Not so much.
Affiliated with the Otter Clan
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)Kurska
(5,739 posts)GalaxyHunter
(271 posts)think it's a great post. But the truth always hurts those with secrets.
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)If you hate someone because they are white it is no different than a white person hating someone for being black.
It would be helpful if we could just freakin' stop hating each other. This isn't going to help.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)SOME hatred is okay, because of things that happened hundreds of years in the past.
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)I guess I should advocate for a war against the Brits for killing my g+ uncle and chasing my family from Ireland under threat of assassination. Maybe I should hate the United States for treating them like dirt and refusing to sell them land until my g+grandfather lied and told them he was British. Maybe I should hate the Protestants for throwing rocks at them because they were Catholic.
Or, maybe I should just not let this idiotic post get to me and celebrate my own diverse family. Weird how we can all get together and no one calls me cracker.
and continue to happen today.
sybylla
(8,514 posts)Until then, I absolutely believe only one side here has the right to protest their treatment at the hands of the other side. So long as "Crackers" are still working against and successful in blocking the equality of access and the free exercise of rights of "people of color" then by all means, call a Cracker a Cracker.
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)Hatred is still hatred. To claim that whites are not allowed to be offended by any racial slur is dumb. While we have a lot of whites in this country that deserve to be called damn near every name in the book, the same could be said of any group of people. Broad brushes are the tools of racists and bigots. I'll stick to picking people out one by one.
I have nothing to be forgiven and forgotten for. To say that it's okay for anyone to call me a cracker is just because I'm white and all whites deserve to be called cracker is fucking ignorant. Am I offended by the word? Hell no. It takes a helluva lot to offend me and that ain't it. Do I think it's divisive and argumentative in this thread? Absolutely.
I don't hate any group of people enough to call them a racist or bigoted name. Except for those that are founded on racism and bigotry. Call them whatever the fuck you want.
Those that are using this OP as an excuse to wave any type of flag are not fighting for their rights. They're promoting hatred and separation. This OP has done nothing but try to blame all the 'whiny white people' for crap that most of us have zero control over. Much of which happened before any of us were born.
I'll fight for the rights of everyone, but start poking me and trying to lay blame on my shoulders and I'll tell anyone to go fuck themselves and I don't care what color, religion, race, faith, gender, flavor or texture they are.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)is it fun? Yeah, I'll never forget a picture of Trayvon Martin lying dead in the grass, a bullet in his heart. I would not wish for you to offer any apology or forgivness for that, it might be out of character for you. Zimmerman was a racist, bigoted 'cracker'. Don't like that? Tough! The OP points out the ongoing problem of race created by the racist mindset that he was pointing out as part of the cultural beginnings of amerikkka that has continued to contribute to the divisiveness in amerika. I am so glad you don't hate? If one of your friends or relatives uses the nword, do you point out the hate and divisiveness that embodies the character of that word? I don't expect you will answer that. I did a study one time of all the negative words associated to the word n..... as used by amerikkkans of the white culture. The list is very long. For your edification and/or research IF it's your desire, jigaboo, pickaninny are two, and that should get you started. Words still in use today. Your outrage at the word 'cracker'? Okay, your right. The OP shows where it started and why the racist hate continues. I truly would like to see all racial, gender, sexual orientation hate in the dustbin of history. Will it happen? Only time will tell.
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)...forget it. I am not George Zimmerman. I mourned the loss of Trayvon and was disgusted at the verdict. I don't have friends that use the n-word...they wouldn't be friends.
It's obvious that if you saw me on the street you'd call me cracker and cross to the other side...because you need to know nothing more than I am white. Good for you.
got me all wrong, so okay. I see a lot of white people everyday. I would be exhausted at the end of the day if that's all I did. No friends that use any racially offensive terms to describe someone? OOOOKKAAAAYY! No I wouldn't cross the street. I wouldn't think much about you unless you started following and tried to shoot me in my heart. backatcha. have a good one.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)I think we did this a couple of months ago. I still maintain that any white person who claims to be offended by the word cracker is simply ridiculous.
Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #13)
Post removed
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts) hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)mr blur
(7,753 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)marshall
(6,665 posts)It's like allowing them to have an opinion. What people think about in the privacy of their own minds is very hard to legislate, or even determine with absolute accuracy. How will it be decided that someone is offended? Will their facial expressions be the criteria? Their conversations with friends and family? Will their emails and phone calls be monitored? If they deny being offended, are they taken at their word?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)exhibit A.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)markiv
(1,489 posts)tells you something about this site
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: I don't see the value in this post. Hide it.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This is a long time duer. He is not a race troll. As a woman, I am well aware that this post is right on. The alert must be coming from the very whiney white person the post is addressing. Maybe instead of a false outrage, the poster ought to take the lesson to heart.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Although I don't like the post, I just don't think it's over the top. I've seen much worse said in other posts that haven't been taken down.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: White whiny people DO need to STFU!
malthaussen
(17,204 posts)I must not have gotten the memo.
-- Mal
Iggo
(47,558 posts)They just got a Outrage Envy.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)What an epically stupid post.
hamsterjill
(15,222 posts)Do I like that our history is jaded by slavery, race discrimination, etc.? Hell no! And I will do my part while I live on this earth to make sure that I never further those.
But I don't feel that I am the least bit responsible for anything that my ancestors may have done.
markiv
(1,489 posts)or were even part of ending the injustice
brush
(53,788 posts)Well said, hamsterjill.
Would that everyone would do the same.
Doesn't seem so though. So many people seem to fall back on the argument that "I had nothing to do with it and I am not responsible.
That might be so but it's so easy to look the other way when injustice is done. I hope those that "aren't responsible" are responsible enough to not further race discrimination wehn white privilege makes that an easy thing to do.
yawnmaster
(2,812 posts)on what their ancestors did or did not experience?
I find that to be an interesting proposal.
markiv
(1,489 posts)not even close to it
BeyondGeography
(39,374 posts) heaven05
(18,124 posts)great post. Watch out though, the whiney's will be coming out of the woodwork. You got my vote..
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Might want to check that beam in your eye...
said you'd come out the woodwork, I was right.
Response to heaven05 (Reply #262)
Post removed
heaven05
(18,124 posts) XemaSab
(60,212 posts)If my grandfather was shot by the Japanese, does that give me the "right" to hate the Japanese and refer to them as Japs? Why or why not?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)stupid query. Now if that Japanese war hate toward your grandfather was continued to this very day, I hesitate to think what a person like you would be calling the Japanese. Not the same as what OP was pointing out. Please do not waste any more brain cells trying to squirm out the hole you and many others have dug yourself into concerning this OP. I'm through with you.
Wolf Frankula
(3,601 posts)My ancestors were sold by people of color.
My ancestors were kidnapped by people of color and hauled off in chains.
My ancestors were discriminated against by people of color because of their race and religion.
My ancestors stood the long vigil against invasion by people of color, for five hundred years.
I am offended by the word 'cracker'.
Wolf
heaven05
(18,124 posts)is that so.
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)How many here would like to say STFU to Limbaugh?
He is a whiny windbag same as Glen Beck.
Replace "Whiny White People" with either of those two. Then add the enablers who would agree to that craziness.
markiv
(1,489 posts)always made a future of racial harmoney for all, a higher priority than indulging in their own hate, however justified or not it may have been
so go ahead with your venom, you'll never be anyone Ghandi, Mandella, or MLK would have respected
are times when Ghandi, Mandella and MLK just don't fit the bill. Always was that the person of color had to 'peacefully' protest white injustice, yet a young black armed with skittles and tea, murdered and the killer was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Your post.....
Warpy
(111,276 posts)Some of the liveliest discussions of Irish history I've had have been with INDNs who realized the Irish were the trial run for the main event.
But no, I'm not offended by the word "cracker." And when someone has said "I don't like white people," I've just said "Nobody ever said you had to." It's rare, most people out here are remarkably hospitable.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and maybe it just zips past those saying that White folks don't identify as just White, they (we?) identify by the nationality of our ancestors, here's a fact that may come as a shock most Black Americans can not identify by the 'nationality' of their ancestors because the slave traders didn't keep records of which country they kidnapped slaves from, not to mention White slave owners didn't keep many records outside of bills of sale
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)now as to how "shitty" you feel is totally up to you, but I'm guessing not so much though?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Cracker isn't a term of endearment, I don't think.
And I don't think I missed your point at all.
Bryant
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and may I add I am White too, but 3 of my children are not
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Or knows all their ancestors, they identify with their immediate cultural heritage. Cant believe that people dont get that the words dont matter its the thought behind them.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)being of Norwegian, French, Russian, Polish, Czech, Irish, ancestry, however most Blacks do not have that luxury, they can identify as Black or African, but little more than that
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)As there are a lot of africans in the world who dont have that viewpoint
azurnoir
(45,850 posts) loli phabay
(5,580 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Then, maybe not so much.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)which is more than most Black Americans can do, however I would also ask how recent was this immigration, post WW2 perhaps?
If the answer to that last party is yes, then those people are not part of the otherwise shared ancestry of slavery and later Jim Crow in the US, not to mention land theft and attempted genocide of Native Americans
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or what your point is.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)perhaps as post WW2 refugees or survivors
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Especially if that country tried to exterminate them.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)unless you wish to change the playing field, what I said was that most Whites identify their nationality or ethnic background via the country their ancestors came from, I did not say all or every, as it seems you chose to interpret it
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't know if I would make that generalization about white people. Nor would I make similar ones about non-white people.
Latinos often identify with the country of their ancestors - and they are usually considered people of color, aren't they?
Native Americans (also people of color) often know their origins. In fact, the person who wrote the OP identified themselves as being Native American.
you're good.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Just saying...
stereotypes dont work out well for anyone.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 8, 2013, 02:21 PM - Edit history (1)
poster is not stupid, the undercover bigots on here are.geez why? because they feel they are invisible.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)put-downs of any kind. Period.
I know it's "okay" with most people, including most people on DU, to insist on respect for "us" and "ours" while gleefully deriding "them" through the use of juvenile, personal put-downs as well as actual substantive opposition. It's a long-honored custom among people.
I just don't have any respect for it.
I'm white. I'm also a woman, and I also hail from the poor working class. I belong to two different groups whose lives aren't "better" than those privileged to be white middle class and above males.
I don't have to STFU about ANYTHING.
Feel free to pass my response along.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)So I get to talk, right?
I am allowed to be offended by racial slurs then?
Orrex
(63,215 posts)If not, then you proabably shouldn't go out of your way to get too offended.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)
Generic Other
(28,979 posts) DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)Mmm, tastes like racial purity. 
Silly thread is silly.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)to just not refer to ANYone by racial pejoratives?
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)Orrex
(63,215 posts)We totally deserve it.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)No, it would not be too hard for people to just not refer to anyone by racial pejoratives, unless...
... they are fundamentally committed to perpetuating racism, even if they don't realize what they are doing.
JAbuchan08
(3,046 posts)Except for me. I clearly have it worse than YOU, as my people have historically had it worse than YOUR people. While I *personally* don't approve of prejudice behavior, I'm not going to go so far as to condemn it, because I understand that it comes from anger and frustration at this historical oppression. To condemn prejudice against your historically advantaged people would be equivalent to equating the slight offense you take from a racial pejorative to the centuries of violence and oppression my people have faced.
Furthermore if you have a problem or issue with the use of a racial pejorative by MY people, you are a racist. By stating that it bothers you to be addressed with hostility, insult and vituperation you are essentially stating that not only do you equate the centuries of hostility and violence to my people with a minor insult directed at you, but that there is no longer any racism against my people and all my concerns about racism are unfounded
Or you could just be saying that we're all in the same boat and we shouldn't be needlessly offensive to one another, that prejudice and racism are wrong no matter who they are directed at and that we don't have to break out the scales of offense to weigh who has the "right" to be offended by slurs directed at them.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)excellent
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Fuck THAT noise.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Call me a cracker as I am walking down the road. I will offer you an ear and an open mind. Maybe with that you can lose some of the hate and concentrate on caring for yourself.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)WTF?
ileus
(15,396 posts)I find cracker honky and whitebread funny...
I do hope the Redskins have a good season and RGIII stays healthy.
GalaxyHunter
(271 posts)I didn't do shit to anyone! So if someone wants to call me a "cracker" in a derogatory way then I will take offense to it! Plain and fucking simple!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)don't let it bother me, and don't get all purple-faced with THE OUTRAGE, they generally stop.
I think there's a good lesson there.
Orrex
(63,215 posts)Ignore that, if you can.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)This Native American makes the assumption that all white people are thr same. If a person is Russian or Ukrainian, they were slaves in all but name under the czars and Mongols.
Please do not bother with the "my ancestral pain is greater than yours", it isn't helpful or accurate. The greatest tragedy of Native Americans were the diseases which ultimately killed 85-95% of their pre-Columbus numbers.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)
I bet there are some that think minorities can't be racist.
They (we) can.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Kind of surprised me.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Threads on racism or misogyny do tend to drag closeted defenders of either out of the woodwork. Even invoking privilege seems to increase the amount too (though at least there aren't any of those idiots denying privilege exists this time around).
It's sad, and utterly predictable.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)
Or the descendants of those like him?
Incidentally, my great-great grandmother was Oglala Sioux. There's even a McIntosh town (pop 173) in South Dakota where I was born. From my experience, all the Native American spokesmen and all the White-hating spokesmen that I've ever seen have White blood in them. How many have the blood of former slave-owners and are carrying on the tradition of being racists is unknown.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)see, what you started. been rather cathartic me thinks.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)STFU! You cracker motherfuckers.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)and you perpetuate bigotry (yes, I said BIGOTRY) ahen you try to DICTATE what should and what should not offend any group of people.
Wow.
Just fucking WOW!!!
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Problem is, the people who do so are usually the same ones who complain about "reverse racism" and the non-existent persecution of the poor oppressed white male. And people like the OP and myself (28-year-old white guy) simply choose not to indulge them.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)epithets. There is no such thing as 'reverse racism'. There is no such thing as 'reverse bigotry'. There is no such thing as 'reverse sexism'; I could go on and on. There is only racism, bigotry and sexism et al, and should you prefer not to indulge them, please don't try to marginalize the ones who aren't singling any group out, poor oppressed white males be damned.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)any real power to, as an individual. And on an individual level, yes, bigotry is bigotry - the crucial difference lies in whether or not there is sufficient institutional power to back it up. I'm not saying it's A-OK to call somebody a cracker - I wouldn't be deeply offended by it, but I probably wouldn't appreciate it either - rather that it doesn't have the same potency that other racial slurs do, since white people have never been systematically discriminated against as white people in this country.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)And how else am I supposed to describe people who think affirmative action is "reverse racism" and that the most discriminated-against group in America today is straight white males?
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)that affirmative action is "reverse racism" and those who think (let's be honest: PROJECT) as wrong, misguided and stupid. Those are all apt and honest descriptions that need not parlay race into it, because even when you think you are doing it 'to further our common good', it doesn't change that you are *doing it* too.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)because it seems to rile people so much. Doesn't change the basic fact of what they are though.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)have never really been persecuted in this country, either. At least, not to the degree black slaves were. In fact, women often were indirect participants in the persecution of blacks during that period.
So we shouldn't be offended if someone calls us "bitches" or the "c" word?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)So obviously there is a history there.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts) HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)
HipChick
(25,485 posts)Whiny White People just don't know how lucky they have it..
sunwyn
(494 posts)and Irish ancestors who were sold into slavery. I may look white as white could be but I am a mutt and proud of it. Cracker does not offend me...
particularly offended by that term, either, but I do wonder why it's necessary for people to hurl nasty labels at other people at all.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)each other is s-o-o-o easy. 
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)Heather MC
(8,084 posts)non of you have ever been called a cracka, if you had you would pronounce it correctly
And to be honest most black people prefer to say "Stupid white Bitch". nowadays
Cracka is so 70's
just trying to help
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Rebellious Republican
(5,029 posts)“People fail to get along because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they have not communicated with each other.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
“We must live together as brothers or perish together as fools.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
“I have decided to stick to love...Hate is too great a burden to bear.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
Another history lession that you may not be aware of.
European traders such as Nicolas Owen waited at these forts for slaves; African traders transported slaves from the interior of Africa. Equiano and others found themselves sold and traded more than once, often in slave markets. African merchants, the poor, royalty -- anyone -- could be abducted in the raids and wars that were undertaken by Africans to secure slaves that they could trade. The slave trade devastated African life. Culture and traditions were torn asunder, as families, especially young men, were abducted. Guns were introduced and slave raids and even wars increased.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1narr4.html
In Egypt the effects of invasion and conquest are to be seen in different racial types represented in paintings and sculptures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_(military)
Some other CRACKERS you may want to take notice of, its not all about white people.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3423798
heaven05
(18,124 posts)forgot the arab slave traders, transporters, destroyers of villiages in search of slaves. The Portugese same thing. The dutch same thing the belgian same thing. What you say about the africans involved is true. I have made a point in lectures to be open about this fact, no problem, tribal conflict helped the slave traders. Now any of you want research......'The African Slave Trade'. Basil Davidson.--Atlantic-little brown 'The Destruction of Black Civilization:Great Issues of Race from 4500 B.C.to 2000 A.D. Chancellor Williams--Third World Press. The classic: Before the Mayflower: A history of the Negro in America 1619-1964 Lerone Bennett,jr. Pelican Books. That will get interested persons started on educating themselves on this mess as exemplified by this thread. With all the historical revisionism going on I don't know if they can be found in print, yet I do have them.
Rebellious Republican
(5,029 posts)I have found that it is best to keep it simple for some around here due to short attention spans. Most do not take the time to research any given subject. To read a complete dissertation would be asking a lot of the average person here. Many peoples have been subjugated through out world history. Many are not even aware of where the the term Slave comes from. Here is a hint, think white people, drop the e at the end of slave, that leaves Slav. To claim that only one group of peoples have suffered atrocities more so than any other is very narrow minded, lacking of knowledge and just plain wrong.
[Middle English sclave, from Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclvus, from Sclvus, Slav (from the widespread enslavement of captured Slavs in the early Middle Ages). See Slav.]
http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2004/10/slav_an_etymolo.html
Word History: The derivation of the word slave encapsulates a bit of European history and explains why the two words slaves and Slavs are so similar; they are, in fact, historically identical. The word slave first appears in English around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from Medieval Latin sclavus, "Slav, slave," first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes from Byzantine Greek sklabos (pronounced sklävs) "Slav," which appears around 580. Sklavos approximates the Slavs' own name for themselves, the Slovnci, surviving in English Slovene and Slovenian. The spelling of English slave, closer to its original Slavic form, first appears in English in 1538. Slavs became slaves around the beginning of the ninth century when the Holy Roman Empire tried to stabilize a German-Slav frontier. By the 12th century stabilization had given way to wars of expansion and extermination that did not end until the Poles crushed the Teutonic Knights at Grunwald in 1410. · As far as the Slavs' own self-designation goes, its meaning is, understandably, better than "slave"; it comes from the Indo-European root *kleu-, whose basic meaning is "to hear" and occurs in many derivatives meaning "renown, fame." The Slavs are thus "the famous people." Slavic names ending in -slav incorporate the same word, such as Czech Bohu-slav, "God's fame," Russian Msti-slav, "vengeful fame," and Polish Stani-slaw, "famous for withstanding (enemies)."
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/slave
I will leave you with one last quote....
"You must recognize that the way to get the good out of your brother and your sister is not to return evil for evil.
To have come to this board and make a statement in the original OP is insulting many WHITES, that are not not hate filled people was bad form at best. I stole this pic from another recent post, lest we forget that we are all human beings, that need to learn to coexist in a world WITHOUT the kind of hate displayed by this OP who has yet come back and explain THEIR own feelings and thoughts. Were you the original poster under a different pseudonym? Why keep defending someone when you can not speak from where their mind set is at?
Edited to add this......
heaven05
(18,124 posts)speak from personal experience. Not judging what the mind set of the original poster was. What the original poster wrote was the truth about amerikkkan culture, historically and currently. So I agree with what he/she wrote. Like it or not there are racist 'crackers' out there and racist 'rednecks' too. The term comes from slave overseers 'crackin' the whip on some black person or to strike fear. 'Rednecks' from the color of the overseer's skin while out in the sun 'crackin' that whip. zimPIG is a modern 'cracker' 'redneck. His crack came from the sound of that weapon discharging into Trayvon's HEART! I do not broad brush the whole white or white looking racial group. I was involved in civil rights marches with a rainbow of people. I have taken heart with my discourse with you. I have learned and tried to offer learning materials. For that I'm grateful. Yet, bad form? No, I respectfully disagree. The original OP was the truth. No, ifs, ands or buts about it. The truth about this racist, culturally backward and ignorant society that we have now is disheartening. I have an Armenian friend, he has educated me on the Turkish slaughter of his people in the early 19th century. I never meant to imply that certain sub groups/cultures of the white race has not had atrocities committed against them. Yet the original OP stands on it's own merit and I will not retract any statement I made or disagree with original poster of OP. You seem like a reasonable and intelligent human being with empathy, maybe even that individual in that photo. Again, bravo. But while I don't really see many problems for whites in this society, NSA spying, notwithstanding, your rights are entrenched as far as that is possible in our current american system. Blacks just lost an important voting right. SCOTUS, your original photo of thomas, took that right with some legalese that will allow the individual states to go back to voting suppression like in the 'early' days. Bigots are gleeful over that. I've listened in public. These next two elections WILL prove my point. Yes we are all human beings that need to coexist, tell that to the one who would like to shoot a kid wearing a hoodie, carrying candy and a tea. That's only prominent because. It is open season on blacks and browns in this country. Till the racist 'redneck' and 'cracker' stops being a bigot, won't be no peaceful coexistence. Lot of UNNECESSARY work still to do for blacks to regain full voting and civil rights. Sad but nuff said. backatcha
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I too post stupid shit when I'm drunk.
rl6214
(8,142 posts)That sort of racism is just as bad as any other type.
Rebellious Republican
(5,029 posts) Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)The OP is definitely not interested in discussing, just disturbing and stirring and raking mud.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)point your friend is trying to make, sort of, but...
using persecution as justification for epithets of any kind, I guess in your friend's mind it would be OK for descendants of people killed and persecuted by the Nazis during WWII to call Germans "krauts"?
And for American soldiers held in Japanese prison camps to call them "Japs" or "slant eyes"?
Or for guys like John McCain...tortured by the North Vietnamese...to call them "gooks"?
Or for any group of people that's ever been oppressed by another group of people to call them whatever nasty things they want to?
How about this...how about nobody gets to call someone any nasty names at all?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Just because it doesn't have the potency of the word "n**ger" - note the asterisks - doesn't mean it's perfectly fine to throw around. But that's not even the point - the point is that white people have never been persecuted as white people on a mass level, in this society. Discrimination for other reasons - nationality, religion, sexual orientation - against people who happen to be white, is not the same thing at all. Yet some people seem to almost intentionally conflate the two.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)That makes them a troll, unless they come back and whine that they were unexpectedly pulled away from the keyboard.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)When have white people ever been discriminated against, on a mass level, because they were white? The false sense of persecution many white Americans seem to have, is the whole point of the OP.
JAbuchan08
(3,046 posts)and NOTHING about the OP is "factual" its a bunch of rules made up to define what is and isn't acceptable for white people as a group to take offense at. When people call me a cracker with a vituperative tone I get angry, when I'm told I'm "acting white" for following the rules and trying to act ethically within my job (implying that 'acting white' in this way is a negative thing) or when I'm told to STFU because I might have a different perspective on an issue involving race, I get upset because I'm being devalued as a person based on my race.
What's going through my head is neither "As a white person I have it worse than minorities" nor "minorities have historically had it worse so I should just suck it up" what I'm thinking is: "this person is being an asshole to me right now, and it's because of the color of my skin."
I'm not trying to make common cause with conservatives who believe racism ended with the election of Barack Obama or that white people are now an oppressed minority. What I AM saying is that simply acknowledging that, yes, white people have feelings too, and (outside of the predictable self flagellators) a lot of us DON'T like being subject to insults either predicated on, or motivated by our race, does NOT erase racism against African Americans, nor do I expect it to.
Acknowledging that "cracker" can be offensive when said in a spiteful tone does not wipe out the history of the Atlantic Slave trade and I'm not ASKING for it to.
Think about that.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Because that sounds a lot like how right-wingers tend to characterize white progressives. As if favoring social justice, and refusing to see oneself as inherently superior based on skin color, amounted to some form of racial self-loathing.
I'm a white guy, and I've lived nearly my whole life in a racially diverse area - in and around Richmond, CA and a few years in Oakland - yet I've never been harassed or threatened based explicitly on my skin tone. If anyone ever called me a "cracker" it was probably in jest, and I probably rolled my eyes at worst. So aside from my generally laid-back nature, I feel no need at all to be defensive about these things, and I really can't identify with white people who do get defensive.
I don't doubt that some (not necessarily you) would accuse me of "white guilt" - for the same bullshit reasons listed above - but it's funny how those same people seem to show signs of guilt (defensiveness, denial, etc.) themselves.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)is persecution.
Do we really want to play the "My persecution was worse than your persecution" game?
My hurt is worse than yours?
People who weren't even born at the time their ancestors suffered at the hands of their persecutors/oppressors have the right to keep the wounds open by throwing around words best left in the past?
My point is that why should anybody feel the need to insult others for any reason at all?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Just pointing out that not all "slurs" are created equal.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Do we have to be actually white and whiny in order to play?
Do we have to comply with all the criteria, or just a portion?
Does the family history criteria have to apply to all of our ancestors?
Oh, and does it count if none of my ancestors, at least of the ones of which I am aware, did any of those things to yours? Cracker is offensive, but it certainly hasn't risen to the level of the forbidden word, and I have yet to experience someone calling that to me.
Chaco Dundee
(334 posts)Of course you could be offended by the N.word, but you sure are asking for that.have a nice black night.
mstinamotorcity2
(1,451 posts)got them talking about everything. About all kinds of rights. Human Rights seem kind of universal to me.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Now that we've set the principle that you can tell someone else they're not allowed to be offended by something, the next step is to tell everyone that they CAN'T be offended by ANYTHING. Then, we won't have to worry about anyone offending anyone ever again and can finally have a nice civil discussion.
Problem solved!
exlrrp
(623 posts)No, you should STFU
Sotf
(76 posts)Seems someone is going to great lengths to try to justify why it's ok for them to be a bigot...
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)The OP has since posted elsewhere on DU, starting another thread (that I can see).
Clearly they just wanted to disturb shit with this thread and not engage in a discussion.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)need to say anymore bernardo. Got people talking and discussing. That's all that matters and You've expelled enough hot air to propel a fleet of schooners.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)gtar100
(4,192 posts)Except the transparent ones. They are not people of color.
Sotf
(76 posts)
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)I agree that white people don't have the perspective that minorities have, but arguing over which minority has been oppressed more and when someone is allowed to be offended is ridiculous and childish.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)meant to divide us. I'm not taking the bait and neither should anyone else. I am walking away with one consolation, however. <flush>
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I was absent from the Whitey Cabal the day we kidnapped people, sold people, hated on people, set dogs and fire hoses on people, and so forth.
The only time I remember voting on basic rights for other people was Prop 8.
Yes, it's a racist country, and white people have many advantages. HOWEVER, the way to overcome that is to bring up black people, Native Americans, Latinos, and so forth. But this OP is more about tearing people down.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)Click the number (currently 125) of just above the "DU Rec" button.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=10023422027&info=1#recs
djean111 DinahMoeHum IdaBriggs yellerpup PADemD BanzaiBonnie sagat all
american girl calimary kestrel91316 monmouth3 daleanime FiveGoodMen
Arctic Dave G_j LittleGirl JoyBugaloo lark MadrasT LongTomH
Cheap_Trick go west young man UrbScotty atreides1 M0rpheus bravenak
Wilms think no_hypocrisy nahant eridani lunatica Jazzgirl Warpy
yesphan AverageJoe90 OneGrassRoot gollygee skydive forever Grey
azurnoir malaise Deuce NOIBN csziggy MrScorpio frogmarch madokie
amb123 Mosaic Scuba TBF jtuck004 sybylla WillyT wildeyed Unknown
Beatle riqster JRLeft tblue winterpark cilla4progress Robb MoonRiver
jeff47 Enthusiast broiles nomorenomore08 zentrum zeos3 babsbunny
PDittie CreekDog tonybgood sagetea HipChick frylock relayerbob
PotatoChip summerschild joesdaughter tclambert TinkerTot55 Rockyj
rbilick stonecutter357 Fringe hwmnbn freshwest Fire Walk With Me
Bobcat FrenchieCat Pastiche423 handmade34 GnashvilleCat
noiretextatique TRoN33 Cha KauaiK tosh One Voice abelenkpe LibGranny
kalli007 Dem_in_Nebr. Kencorburn Dragonfli blkbear DeSwiss deanx
dog_lovin_dem Mira proReality Bettie Nativechef rustydog
Moses2SandyKoufax pkdu BlueMTexpat Zoeisright donheld Number23
Yooperman Judi Lynn
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)In 1847, midway through the Great Irish Famine (1845–1849), a group of Native American Choctaws collected $710 (although many articles say the original amount was $170 after a misprint in Angie Debo's The Rise and Fall of the Choctaw Republic) and sent it to help starving Irish men, women and children. "It had been just 16 years since the Choctaw people had experienced the Trail of Tears, and they had faced starvation... It was an amazing gesture." according to Judy Allen, editor of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma's newspaper, Biskinik, based at the Oklahoma Choctaw tribal headquarters in Durant, Oklahoma. To mark the 150th anniversary, eight Irish people retraced the Trail of Tears, and the donation was publicly commemorated by President Mary Robinson.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)but I don't really need other people telling how to feel about the world. How about you? Do you need other people to tell you how to feel about the world?
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)
Response to HarveyDarkey (Original post)
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Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)More hate is an ineffective strategy
shawn703
(2,702 posts)Regardless of race, religion, sex or orientation. They can wallow in their negativity by themselves. They're not worth my time.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)My parrot loves crackers. 
BrainDrain
(244 posts)I was born in 1954...my family never owned anyone, and we don't owe anyone anything. Not one dime, not one apology. I refuse to feel guilty for things done by other people long before I was born.
So take your self-righteous bullshit and stuff it, because you are not helping in any way, shape or form.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And Native Americans can be assholes too.
lynne
(3,118 posts)- Using racially divisive language and/or looking for a reason to justify its use = you're a racist. Don't care if you're black, brown, yellow, white, red, or green.
BTW, husband's ancestor was kidnapped from her home by Native American's who also killed her children. Does that count?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)what you started, again. like your comments or not, which ARE THE TRUTH, a lot of people have shown who they really are by their responses to your understanding of the cruel nature of amerikkkan historical fact. Keep up the good work.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)It's not the "amerikkkan historical fact" people have a problem with.
It's the FACT that anybody calling anybody else names, based on what their ancestors didn't or didn't do, is childish and totally non-productive.
And it's non-conducive to healing the wounds of the past.
What's really revealing, IMO, is knowing who among us don't mind...in fact, revel in...keeping those wounds open and bleeding.
I'm not bleeding or angry just because of historical fact. Trayvon Martin bled out because the past continues to be the present. Trayvon's wounds will never heal and people like zimPIG keep stabbing with the racist knife killing innocent people and continuing the bloodletting because of nothing more than a racist outlook. Please, spare me your moralistic schitck, you don't get it, and never has evidently.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)YOU were bleeding, nor did I mean it that way.
Cultural wounds. Societal wounds. They can't be closed when people think they have the right to call others names, even if their ancestors were victims.
"Moralistic shtick", huh? Common human decency is now "moralistic shtick"?
Nice way to (try to) sidetrack a discussion, but I'm not going to take your bait.
The bottom line here is this...
Nobody has the right to use epithets against anyone else.
How much more simple could that concept be?
right. Tell it to someone who hasn't experienced racial hate and bigotry. in amerikkka, consistently over 65 years. Racist DO NOT want to heal. What don't you understand about that. Yeah if all could be put on reservations in say wyoming, n.dakota, montana, I'd be for that, oh wait! They are there already. I'm not the one ignoring amerikkkan ignorance, racial hate and cultural backwardness that generated the OP. Yeah pollyanna BS! Not sidetracking, it's da truth!
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)there is no justification whatsoever for people to call each other names.
I notice that you have this penchant for calling people who don't agree with you "racists".
It always makes me wonder a bit when someone runs around pointing fingers at others, calling them names.
In 12-Step talk, that's called "taking someone else's inventory". And why do people do that? So they don't have to deal with their own inventory, that's why.
In any event, and for the umpteenth time...
It's unfortunate...sad...outrageous...that some groups of people have been mistreated and persecuted.
That, however, doesn't give them justification to label everyone who resembles their (or their ancestors') persecutors.
Unless they are intent on keeping the wounds of society open and bleeding. In which case, they are as big a problem as the people they call "racists".
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I'm done with you. I have not called anyone racist. For the last time, you are clueless, but slick. Doesn't work with me. I see underneath your words. It ain't pretty. You'd rather gloss over the current hate and murder with 'unfortunate'...'sad'....'outrageous' there is no addressing the problem, by you, of the ongoing problem of racism prevalent in this society. Nothing, nada short of lamenting the "opening of the wounds of the past". The wounds never healed. No one opened them again. Just more and more wounds and deaths added everyday because of skin color, sexual orientation and a host of other reason used by the racist to justify their murderous actions. Nothing addressed about that from you. At least in some of my posts I've offered up learning material to try and make sense out of this amerikkkan racial mess. What do you bring to the table?
1awake
(1,494 posts)not sure the only way to being a bigot is to have ancestors who may or may not have been bigots. Being the receiver of such hate and abuse (even historically) does not give a person the right to become a bigot themselves. I hold no notion of accountability for what may or may not have happened by my ancestors (which none of mine were even in this country... mine were the one's at Ellis Island with the sign hanging around the necks which read WOP). Much like you can't be punished for crimes committed by your grandfather, neither can anyone else. How far are we allowed to look back at our family history? 50 years? 200 years? Is there a cut off where it doesn't count? Is one race's abuse count more than another? Having said that, we should not ignore history or the ramifications of such history on current events, or in relation to places where such history plays a bigger role.
Your friends post is completely bigoted at it's core. There is no argument to say otherwise.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)In fact, the magnitude of the underlying problems makes his abusive approach to communicating it all the more problematic.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts) Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Women should just shut up about sexism because we don't have it as bad as (insert abused demographic of your choice here). At least not if one buys into the "reasoning" in the OP...
Fuck that.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Except for the inherent legitimacy of his complaints, of course.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)their legitimate complaints will be ignored because of "tone". Because they are minimized and ignored when you are soft spoken. It comes down to, "not my problem, don't want to hear it" unless you submit it in a form palatable to me. There is NO format that is palatable, trust me. It sucks to hear legit complaints- as well it should. Can't really fix that for you guys.
nice to see you, btw.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Honest, good faith efforts to resolve problems aren't written in the way the OP was. It is simple, basic, communication.
Good to see you too.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)tried saying it evenly and people blow you off, and then become louder- and then they complain about tone- you start to realize- people will always find an excuse, and the "tone" thing is a very frequent one. I thought his tone was okay- considering the subject matter. But, you know, I am used to people speaking very frankly about their feelings.
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)when white people start whining about "reverse racism" or when they conflate "cracker" to "ni**er". As a minority myself, I agree with that part of the post. However, it probably could be written in a less divisive manner.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)...I'll be sure and let them know.
markiv
(1,489 posts)a great friend in this site
there were countless factors in the change toward equality over the last 50 years - one of the many was white liberals
many of the people on this site are first or second generation white liberals who at least supported that change
sure, you may feel it your right to spit in the face of any white person, and there are plenty of white liberals who feel enough guilt that they will take it and say 'i deserved that'
....but for how long?
i think there had long been an underlying belief among white liberals that only whites can be biggoted - and that they were ultimately fighting bigottry
perhaps some think that there's enough guilt that they will support other kinds of biggotry. some are brainwashed enough to do it, but i wouldnt count on a majority...
Response to HarveyDarkey (Original post)
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HarveyDarkey
(9,077 posts)and then we'll talk
Response to HarveyDarkey (Reply #296)
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heaven05
(18,124 posts)addressed your 'content'??? You answer me.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)done a good thing with your post. I am able to see just how 'lost and ignorant' a lot of people are. keep up the good work. 
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)After 24 hours after posting your disruptive thread you have nothing to offer or discuss.
It is now clear that you just want to rake muck and disturb excrement without actually engaging in useful dialogue and discussion. Just stir things up in no productive way.
You've had ample opportunity and you've posted elsewhere on DU in the meantime.
HarveyDarkey
(9,077 posts)I just thought it might prompt a discussion, and might even be hidden. I think it accomplished the first, a very spirited discussion I might add. You can call it disruptive if you wish, that's your prerogative. The "muck or excrement" seemed to be very capable of raking itself,
Kinda like racists blaming Obama for making them racist: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023426461
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)You have shown you are not ready to participate.
HarveyDarkey
(9,077 posts)then went to work from 1:00 to 10:00 last night, came home, ate and then slept until 10:00 this morning, my response time has been rather limited. That of course is irrelevant I guess.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)Your excuse making is disproved by the fact that you spent time in between starting another thread (that I saw) instead of finishing what you started here.
HarveyDarkey
(9,077 posts)Funny, it wouldn't be "divisive" if there weren't divisions to begin with. There was no need to "finish" this, it was doing quite well without me. How would you suggest I "finish" it? Let's just agree to disagree. End of our discussion, from my end anyway.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 10, 2013, 10:01 AM - Edit history (1)
think you will reach who you're responding to. Their agenda is set and reason, empathy, ability to see both sides is lost. You did just fine in provoking very vigorous debate with your OP. Please keep up the good work and don't let yourself be baited by some very ignorant and extremely divisive people on this site who might consider themselves progressives or liberals. You have only caused them to show their true intent and sympathies in some of their uninformed responses to your debate provoking OP. I say bravo to you! 
heaven05
(18,124 posts)wikipedia references are historically revisionist which doesn't surprise me. Look at "destruction of Black Civilization: great issues of race from 4500 B.C. to 2000 A.D. Chancellor Williams. third world press. You did not mention arab slave traders, village destroyers in search of 'black gold'. Gold coast ring a bell. You didn't mention dutch, portugee, belgian , american slave traders who knew the interior. "Most sold by africans." Sir, THAT is a revisionist lie. 'The African slave trade: basil davidson.precolonial history 1450-1850. You do not know what you're talking about with this wikipedia BS What the hell do you know of 'cheapening and suffering'? Yes to your obviously ignorant questions. Don't need proof, scars are there. Go back to the classroom, although I wonder whether you're capable of having truth enter that mind.
Response to HarveyDarkey (Original post)
ieoeja This message was self-deleted by its author.
can people, DUers of all people, not see something so glaringly obvious?" THEY DON'T WANT TO.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)Would certainly be ironic.
Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #333)
ieoeja This message was self-deleted by its author.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)I don't believe you.
Response to heaven05 (Reply #388)
ieoeja This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to HarveyDarkey (Original post)
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el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I agree that racial insults are not acceptable but crap talking Jackson and Sharpton does kind of lay out where you are coming from.
Bryant
heaven05
(18,124 posts)have no conscience.
RZM
(8,556 posts)I don't get why people would feel invested in such an outcome.
Not all slurs are created equal, but they are all still slurs. One slur may be less bad than another, but it's still bad. If you can't get any deeper than to insult somebody because of the color of their skin, you've got nothing to begin with. And you're also an ass.
What's wrong with the progressive position being that all racial/ethnic slurs of any kind are off limits? That's more in line with basic principles of equality anyway.
AppleBottom
(201 posts)
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)markiv
(1,489 posts)about the dangers of letting your cries for change just becoming another form of hate
You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world.
Tou tell me that it’s evolution,
Well, you know
We all want to change the world.
But when you talk about destruction,
Don’t you know that you can count me out.
Don’t you know it’s going to be alright,
Alright, alright.
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We’d all love to see the plan.
You ask me for a contribution,
Well, you know
We’re doing what we can.
But if you want money for people with minds that hate,
All I can tell you is brother you have to wait.
Don’t you know it’s going to be alright,
Alright, alright.
You say you’ll change a constitution
Well, you know
We all want ot change your head.
You tell me it’s the institution,
Well, you know
You better free your mind instead.
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao,
You ain’t gonna make it with anyone anyhow.
Don’t you know it’s going to be alright,
Tarheel_Dem
(31,235 posts) AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)nt
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,007 posts)
undergroundpanther
(11,925 posts)With whites ,I being a mixed up melungeon.
I feel awkward with other races too I dunno why.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Basically this is just a pathetic attempt to justify racial animus against white people. Insulting an entire race of people for things other people did is just idiotic bigotry.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)happening? duh. 'Other people' people didn't kill Trayvon Martin.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Movement?
Systemic human rights abuses with a young man who was killed by a person he was straddling and repeatedly punching in the face...Really? Whose killer was acquitted because it turns out there is no evidence he broke any laws.
And, the actions of one person is a petty excuse for racial insults.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)have bought the line of bs from that trial lock, stock and barrel and you are clueless as to my point. No more time will be WASTED with you.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)But I would judge the person saying it to be racist trash.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)That is all.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)You read the history between Morrocco, Spain and Italy
flvegan
(64,408 posts)I still think this post is shit.
At least I can admit when those fucking halfwits did what they did, they were fucking halfwits. What's your excuse?
