It's getting tough

[retrowire]

I need a pat on the back or something fellow berners..

it's getting tough to handle circular logic, hypocritical thinking, and ignorant views.

I know it'll only get tougher, but for now... phew! ugh! bleh!

its the whole Hillary supporter thing I just can't understand. why support someone so flawed? because of fear of unelectability? that's literally the only thing it keeps coming back to and its just self defeating logic.

just ugh guys, just ugh.

[djean111]

1. I have to agree.

What cheers me up is talking to people about Bernie. And my grandson talking to people about Bernie.
I get an awful lot of people who say, right away, that they are definitely NOT voting for the Other Candidate. Very polarizing.

And yeah, the issues mean nothing to some people.

[emulatorloo]

3. Exactly: talking to people IRL is what gets Bernie the nomination.

I just talk up Bernie's policies, his character, his integrity and his straight-talking.

For your grandson

[JackInGreen]

2. *pats on the back, hair ruffle*

We'll get through it like the Avengers. Together win or lose (and we kinda sorta still win if we lose).

They're set, only the worst will shake they're loyalty to Hill and eachother. Admirable if I could stand the arguments and consistently self congratulatory tone.

[TBF]

4. We live in a neo-fascist state retrowire -

Last edited Fri Oct 23, 2015, 01:17 PM - Edit history (1)

you and your beautiful wife are young. We older folks on DU have been watching this country for many years now. We saw Reagan cut back our gains as a society, we lost our jobs vis a vie NAFTA with the Clintons, and then we experienced war-mongering on steroids with the Bush/Cheney Crime Families (others older than myself would start this list with the assassinations of JKF, RFK, and Dr. King).

Honestly I'll be surprised if a dem wins this time, but if we have any hope at all it is with someone like Bernie who actually appeals to people and votes for things that would be GOOD for more than 1% of the country.

I don't know what to tell you. We all know Hillary is not a good candidate - that is why we worked on Obama's campaign in 2008. Why they are running her again is a mystery. Our next really good candidate is Julian Castro - and my cynical opinion is that he is being groomed for 2024 - at which time he will be 50 years old and Texas will turn purple if not blue.


If you are smelling a racket I'm not surprised. I personally believe the fix has been in for awhile now and my only interest in voting is to pick the least objectionable candidate in order to keep more people alive.

ETA - because older people sometimes have memory issues!

[artislife]

7. with little c on the ticket

I see the future they envision and it makes me sad.

Good news, if any of the others get elected, Gia is on the fast track to getting rid of her fleas.

[retrowire]

10. o.0 snotcicles isnt my wife!

AWKWARD...

My wife isnt even a member of DU! lol

but thank you for the words and strength. its the history you lived that keeps my generation informed about the truth.

[TBF]

13. Whoops - sorry!

I remember the photos from the Bernie event in NC but must've gotten confused when reading posts.

At any rate keep at it. Don't let the Clinton folks get to you. They've been at this a long time. Ignore them.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

19. ETA - maybe I'll forget this disrespect...

fu! Oh and then again before I forget... Hold up your hand, count your fingers, five correct?
Reflect on the middle one!

This is only because of the memory shit,,,

Actually I agree w/ you.


Hope ya forgive me. As I will you!

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. That's the excuse they give for supporting her.

IMCPO, They are themselves wealthy, work on Wall St. or work in the Executive branch of a Large Corporation and don't want to lose their tax loopholes, don't want to pay Wall St. Transaction fees, they're female and want a female president (to hell with the rest of the country-poor people be damned) or they don't want to make less money for the greater good.

Notice how they almost NEVER talk about Hillary's policies? They do NOT care what her policies are. All they know is - Bernie will cost them money. It all boils down to GREED.

IN MY VIEW, that is.

Chin up!
Bernie will win! Just ignore the head games they're playing over in GDP. It's deliberate. DON'T READ THEIR THREADS. Ignore them - you'll be much happier if you do.



PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[aspirant]

32. Please don't forget the Wannabes

thinking that someday a 1%er will that them under his/her wing and then will live happily ever after.

[n8dogg83]

6. The only thing i can suggest is to turn your angst into something positive for Bernie....

Whenever you read some nonsense talking point from the other side, or see them gloating about Hillary's poll #'s, use your anger to do something for Bernie. Donate to his campaign, sign up to do flyering, make a point to run into some folks in your neighborhood and bring up Bernie Sanders to them. Wear your Bernie shirt (if you have one) to the grocery store. There are lots of things you can do to deal with the negative energy. I think you will find out that there is a lot of support from people out there and you just need to step away from the DU bubble for awhile.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

8. 99% or so of voters are not political junkies.

They get their politics in soundbites, and they're hearing a lot of positive soundbites about Hillary in the media, and very little about Bernie. Heck, go to the 'left wing' MSNBC, and most of the time you hear about 'Hillary Clinton and her competitors'. They don't even mention anyone else by name most of the time.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

9. You deserve kudos, brother!

Here's what's happened lately:

1. Hillary did a sufficient job at the debate to staunch the bleeding.

2. Corporate media did a partially successful spin campaign of convincing the public that she won despite all the immediate evidence that Bernie won. The valid ethical attack she received from Lincoln Chaffee was laughed off by the corporate media. The reprehensible lies and innuendo by HRC and O'Malley attacking Bernie were ignored by the corporate media.

3. She just got a boost from the Benghazi committee in their transparently political attack. It is quite possible they want to run against HRC, since Bernie does better than her against Trump.

4. She has poured millions in TV ads into IA and NH to stop the bleeding in those polls.

5. Biden finally said he wouldn't run.

So she has stopped her decline momentarily.

But this is a marathon, not a sprint. No one, not even Bernie, thought we would pose such a formidable challenge at this point in the cycle. Bernie has millions held back to put into TV right before IA and NH, when it counts the most. The Establishment will not go quietly into the night, but we have the truth on our side and that is why I believe we will win.

From your posts, I believe you understand that Bernie is the only candidate who can stop our insane race toward ecological catastrophe. Good on you. We only have each other. The forces of corruption will keep fighting and our only chance is to redouble our message and get people out to vote for Bernie- people who will not otherwise vote because they understand the political game is rigged and therefore the economic game is rigged as well.

Bernie has fought uphill battles all his life and won most of them. I believe his commitment to saving our Party, our nation and our planet, coupled with evermore people standing with him, will win the day. Even in this era of lies and corruption, the truth is powerful!

[retrowire]

11. thank you. n/t

[daleanime]

15. ........

[bvf]

18. Well put!

Stay strong, retrowire!

[Live and Learn]

20. +1 nt

[haikugal]

42. !!!!!!!

From your posts, I believe you understand that Bernie is the only candidate who can stop our insane race toward ecological catastrophe. Good on you. We only have each other. The forces of corruption will keep fighting and our only chance is to redouble our message and get people out to vote for Bernie- people who will not otherwise vote because they understand the political game is rigged and therefore the economic game is rigged as well.

YES!!!!

Thank you...K&R, big time!

[global1]

12. Look - It's Clear To Me That Bernie Is In It To Win It......

The Dems are down to just 3 candidates now and I don't believe that O'Malley will pick up any additional steam going forward.

So bottom line - it is really just Hillary and Bernie. The MSM can't continue to blackout Bernie going forward. They are going to have to acknowledge him now more than ever. They have to make it a horse race going forward - you know - ratings and all that rot.

So it is up to us - the Bernie supporters to be the wind beneath his wings. We have to continue to support him financially and continue to talk him up. We need to keep turning out record crowds to his speaking events. We have to keep pushing his platform on social media every chance we get.

The next debates will be interesting and I still believe that Bernie will win both Iowa and New Hampshire.

I also still believe that Bernie has more of a chance of helping the party in picking up seats in both the House and Senate.

Bottom line - those that are for Hillary have been for her and with her for a long time. I don't see Hillary picking up more followers - as those that don't like Hillary - will continue not to like her. So IMHO there is a big upside opportunity here for Bernie.

He's going to have to go out of his way - with our help - to appeal to the Latino and Black voters. If he can break through on that front - there is a huge upside.

I hear that Bernie's campaign is moving into another phase going forward - the persuasion phase. He has hired a pollster and plans to begin running ads in the two states early next month. He's going to hold smaller events in these two states, in addition to his mega-rallies, so he can take questions from undecided voters.

His campaign strategy going forward is to begin speaking more substantively on issues, including what it means to be a democratic socialist, the term he uses to describe his politics. He also plans to offer more specifics in speeches about his economic plan, including his ideas for taxes and generating revenue and how he would handle his role as commander-in-chief.

He is hiring staff and opening more field offices and I heard he is beginning to conduct research to begin advertising.

I know that he has gotten this far without taking any major shots at Hillary - but sometime in the future - particularly if he wins both Iowa and New Hampshire - he's going to have to get tough on Hillary.

[retrowire]

16. the persuasion phase

is very encouraging. it seems he's got his tactics in line and is making very strategic moves.

meanwhile the MSM and Hillary are just full on offense. wasting their energy too early in the game.

[mmonk]

14. .

[WillyT]

17. :grouphug:

[dorkzilla]

21. {{{{{retrowire}}}}}

Don’t worry kiddo, you’ll weather the storm. I haven’t been on here all day because the gloating about Hillary today has a tinge of “see Bernistas, this is what a president looks like” (kudos to her - she did an incredible job yesterday, and made the GOP look like even bigger idiots) but they’ve all but sworn her in. A lot can change in the next year.

I still feel pretty damned good about Bernie’s chance of winning, don’t let them get to ya!

[aspirant]

33. Are we voting on "looks" now

[dorkzilla]

34. Apparently, some are!

If you “look presidential”, even if you’re a flip-flopping neocon, that’s good enough.

[PatrickforO]

22. The military term for what's going on here is called 'psyops'

Just keep saying, and saying, and saying, and saying it. Be relentless. Go after every little point.

Bernie Sanders is electable. Why? Because each of us have one vote. If enough of us vote Sanders, then he wins.

Simple as that.

The horror of it is that we're being propagandized yet again by the Wall Street bankers and their capitalist supporters. Oh, they say, Bernie's not electable. He's a socialist. He can't win.

But the thing about Bernie is that he's the ONLY one who is telling the truth here; the only one who is talking about the stuff Americans talk about at the kitchen table. Health care. Social Security. Raising taxes on corporations and the 1%. Free college tuition at state schools. These are things we all want.

So we have to think this through. No matter what we say, the psyops people, whether Clinton surrogates, or from the broader Third Way neoliberal spectrum, will keep at it. They are smart. They are relentless. They won't ever stop. Ever. So, our choice is to be smart and relentless in return, to never give up on what we know is right.

I'm supporting Bernie the whole way. All I've got is me, my own knowledge and my own vote, and I'm going to use them. Why? Because I KNOW what neoliberalism is, and once you know, you can't ever go back.

[Babel_17]

23. "cheat codes"

Debates/discussions on the internet can be a great form of interaction with other people. But in some of these you'll encounter people who've got their game face on, and are in win at all cost mode. They're like people who play games using "cheat codes". What like minded people say in discussions among themselves is their own concern. If they want look through rose colored glasses when it comes to people they support, fine.

But when they want to engage in discussion people who aren't of a like mind, some of them aren't above resorting to the methods you mention, as well as others. In the online gaming world, there are equivalent people, they're known as cheaters.

Long story short, one way or the other, just ignore them.

[SharpProgress]

24. Because I think she has the best chance of winning. Period

I'm voting for Bernie in the primary.

But I'll also be perfectly happy voting for Hillary in the general. I'm a socialist, so I endorse Bernie. But most Americans hear socialist, they think godless communist.

Few people are willing to change that position. Few people are willing to accept that we already live in a socialist country.

Your fear reminds me of conservative fear of everything. Stop being to afraid. You have no reason to think Hillary can't win. None. Zero.

On top of that, I'm getting tired of machismo lean in the US (and everywhere else). She'll be fine, she'll put great justices on the SC. And holy shit will it piss off the GOP to have to take orders from... Of all people... A WOMAN! GASP!

[restorefreedom]

25. hang in there, its early

bernie is doing better according to every metric than obama at this time in 07

he is NOT giving this up. he is in to win

[HassleCat]

26. She is not that flawed

When you consider the recent history of the Democratic Party (our party), Clinton is better than many others. She represents the party strategy since 1980, which consists of adjusting rightward to steal issues and votes from the Republicans. Yes, this is a losing strategy, but the party considers it safer than a return to traditional Democratic values. In this context, Clinton is better than many of her fellow Democrats. Flawed. Inconsistent. Maybe even disingenuous. But she knows how to handle Republicans, as we saw yesterday.

Yes, Sanders is better, but he has his flaws, too. His support of the firearms industry in one of them. Another is his refusal to acknowledge anything or anyone who does not conform to his ideas about what is most important. He pretty much repudiated the Obama legacy, which will turn off many voters. Even worse, it makes him appear incapable of accepting any sort of compromise or working with people in his own party. I don't disagree with what he said, but it didn't need saying. When you go out on the hand shaking and baby kissing tour, you don't comment, "My god! Your baby is exceptionally ugly!"

[Admiral Loinpresser]

27. I'm glad you think Bernie is better.

But, for the record, I don't think Bernie supports the firearms industry and his D- lifetime grade cuts against its proof. He has supported immunity for gun dealers in a bill which included manufacturers as well, but it was the bill drafters who lost his vote, not the manufacturers who won it. Has Bernie accepted any money from the NRA or gun manufacturers in this campaign? I seriously doubt it, but if you can find evidence to the contrary, I would sincerely like to know of it.

[mhatrw]

31. She's the establishment, corporate-approved robocandidate.

Sanders is the honest, sensible on the issues, regular person candidate.

Had Sanders said he wanted to continue the Obama legacy, I would have thrown up in my mouth. Obama has governed to the right of Richard Nixon. If you actually care about this country, you cannot simply follow in those footsteps.

[lostnfound]

38. Which one of our presidents haven't been establishment, corporate-approved?

I'm a policy person, progressive because I worry about the have-nots and the children of the have-nots. That's why I'm donating monthly to Bernie. Because MAYBE the U.S. Electorate will SURPRISE me and vote for the clear progressive. MAYBE the disillusioned nonvoters will be lured out on Election Day, and if Bernie has a successful primary, MAYBE he will have liberal coattails in the general. I'm hoping.

But the powers-that-be that shape the media and count the votes and fund massive advertising haven't really let that happen in the past. Ideas aren't given a fair shake if they challenge neoliberalism and FTA's. Of course Bernie is getting minimal coverage. Dean was squashed as not quite in line, with the distortion of the Dean scream. Kucinich got laughed at. It doesn't take long.

Obama wasn't Dean or Kucinich, but I consider that he has been a great president, EXCEPT that he only colors inside the lines of policy permitted by the neoliberal powers that be. Obama was brilliant in crafting Obamacare. He's been graceful, smart, inspiring. There have been some brilliant hours in this presidency.. The inspiring hours in Selma, crafting of Obamacare, support for gay marriage.

I want Bernie. If Bernie doesn't win, I sure as HELL don't want Cruz or Rump or W Jr or Sleepy Doc. If the powers-that-be end up preventing Bernie from happening, by manipulating or suppressing or distorting or miscounting the votes, then what? We can hope against hope for a Trojan horse. We can push Hillary to focus on voting integrity issues.

Some of us focus on pure progressive policy, and it's a no-brainer. But people who respect Clinton aren't necessarily sellouts. Some of them may just be more pessimistic than we are, and may look at US history and say, which one of our presidents haven't been establishment and corporate-approved?

[mhatrw]

40. Sure. Of course. This whole campaign could all be Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the football. Again.

At least in terms of "getting the win," which is the only thing most Americans can respond to politically.

But can we really afford to keep compromising with our issue stances and the candidates we support before we even get out of the starting gate because of our self-defeating "pragmatism" in search of "the win"?

Here is the whole problem with "the third way" as I see it. If you compromise your ideals before it is absolutely necessary to do so, just to supposedly appeal to the widest focus group of low information voters, you end up with the complete mess our great nation currently faces. The problem all our recent Democratic leaders face is that they "compromise" before they even put the matter on the table in the interest of a "bipartisanship" that works only one way.

The only way to win is to proclaim your winning position loudly over and over and over. You only compromise, just as you only go to war, as a last resort. If you don't stand up for what is right as strongly and as vociferously as possible, regardless of what the corporate media addled public supposedly "thinks" according to corporate polls, your defeatism becomes self-fulfilling, and you end up with the political mess our country now faces: a government of the 1%, for the 1%, and by the 1%.

If Democrats want to win state and local elections, our candidates are going to have to start working to energize the disaffected masses that the Republicans keep trying to disenfranchise both by law and by apathetic attrition. Democrats are going to have to go after the rich, powerful, and entrenched interests that are ripping Americans off and offer some tangible relief to the average citizen. Simply not being quite as bad as Republicans is no longer a viable strategy. Democrats are going to have to work hard to channel the anger of average citizens against the corrupt oligarchy that currently controls our government at almost every level. Until the rigged system is changed, Democrats have no choice but to reach out to many people who have completely given up on participating politically and give these people some compelling reasons to engage.

Bernie Sanders has said the exact same things he is saying now over and over and over for the last 30 years. During this entire period, he has been derided and marginalized for being too extreme and too radical. His argument against wealth inequality and for a basic level of economic justice has never changed. The only thing that has changed is that the situation has gotten so out of hand that the message now strongly resonates, despite corporate media's continuing best efforts to marginalize and demonize this message. Sorry, but Sanders' stances on the issues are simply not too radical. They are common sense. Enough is enough.

To me, simply having millions of people exposed to these ideas, many for the first time, is a huge sign of progress, and a sign that maybe, just maybe, there finally is some hope for positive political change in the USA. Accelerating wealth inequality and environmental destruction are just not sustainable. We have to start somewhere to address these issues. Business as usual is simply not an option.

[senz]

28. K&R -- so much kindness and humanity on this thread

just what one would expect of Bernie supporters.

Retrowire, the other folks act that way because they're either 1) ignorant or 2) mean-spirited or 3) damaged or 4) clueless.

Whichever it is, it's ultimately for them to deal with. In the meantime, savor the good and pass it along.

Life is a banquet!

[L0oniX]

29. Vote for me because I'm a Clinton and ...I am a woman.

The 2 most pathetic single issue reasons to vote ...ever.

[LiberalElite]

37. I would add what the minions say -

it's her turn. I say it's OUR turn for a president who represents the 99%.

[Robbins]

39. Problem Is

It might work.

[Autumn]

43. #DidIMentionImAWomanAgain is the worst reason ever to vote

[mhatrw]

30. It's a partisan fantasy sports game to many. She fills up the stat sheet.

Others simply have a vested interest in her winning.

For once in our lives, we have a real chance to nominate a candidate whose stances on the issues are sensible, intelligent and compassionate.

For once in our lives, we have a real chance to nominate a candidate whose actual lifelong political history and actual lifelong voting record reflect his campaign's focus.

Let's not blow this unique opportunity by getting frustrated about how difficult it is to overcome entrenched establishment interests. We all knew this would be a long and difficult fight from day one.

We shall overcome!

[dreamnightwind]

35. Hang in there

It's a long game, and if we persist, and persist on principle, we shall see what happens. Things get better just in the act of our persistence.

The recent gains by Hillary are substantial, and are entirely the product of the powers that be. The debate was rigged to minimize rather than illuminate the differences in the candidates, with a room packed by DNC invitation only, a DNC head who is head off Hillary's Florida campaign, a moderator who is or was on the Clinton Global Initiative payroll, and endless MSM pundits hell-bent on marginalizing the "socialist" in their post-debate analysis, extolling Hillary's presence and competence while ignoring the peril of her third way corporatist and imperial policies.

The Benghazi hearing was a great showcase for Hillary, she was given a platform to show her competence, intelligence, and fortitude (all unquestionable IMO, I've never doubted any of these attributes of hers) while completely ignoring the very real issues behind the Libya debacle, and the Syria debacle, and Hillary's large role in both of them. That all fits the agenda of the powers that be.

Many good threads on this right now, among them:

ONE simple fact: Benghazi was a covert CIA op under direction of Gen. Petraeus.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027277145

Ignoring U.S. Destabilization of Libya, GOP Benghazi Hearing Asks Clinton All the Wrong Questions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027282512

Also Hillary is now spending money on ad buys, which is the lifeblood of the MSM, and effectively propagandizes the low-information public.

We're up against long odds, and we've always known it. That being said, we have Bernie and the truth on our side, and an American public who is very far down the creek the corporate owners of both parties have thrown them into, so people are more ripe for a real candidate who speaks truth to power and will represent their interests more than the interests of the large campaign donors. So therein lies our opportunity. Also climate change, with its oncoming horror, collapses the business as usual arguments.

We will lose many fights before winning, if we ever win. The fights do make a difference, people get educated and are more receptive when future battles are waged. And we have Bernie, probably the best candidate I have ever had the opportunity to support.

[retrowire]

36. Well lets hope that

all the fights before have led to this moment, the returning moment of victory.

In solidarity. Thank you.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

41. Hillary will not win general election period

She will not have the activist base (they will stay at home)
She will not attract Republicans or other party supporters
Republicans will BBQ her

Bernie however has the support of voters of the political spectrum
Republicans will have a hard time BBQing him