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[BigBearJohn]

This message was self-deleted by its author (BigBearJohn) on Sat Apr 23, 2016, 06:26 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[thereismore]

1. I think this will be a significant trend among the young.

[cantbeserious]

2. IMHO - A Vote For HRC In The Primary Is A Vote For Trump In The General

eom

[Baobab]

46. Hillary also supports GATS Mode Four which is the same thing

It lowers wages and makes businesses more profitable.

http://commerce.nic.in/wto_sub/Invest/sub_invest-W39.htm

http://www.tilj.org/content/journal/42/num1/Worster55.pdf

http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/19/this-is-how-trump-hotel-workers-live-in-dubai-video/

[dchill]

57. Exactly. It's Sanders or Trump.

HRC will not return to the White House. To vote for Clinton is to vote for Trump.

[haikugal]

81. Yep..it's true!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

101. Yes

[Gregorian]

3. It's common. I'm sickened to be hearing it from people I admire.

The more I hear about it the more concerned I get.

[Schema Thing]

4. why? I can kind of see not voting, but why actually vote FOR such a douchebag?

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

5. It's the theory that things have to get worse before they'll get better

So there will be 3 categories: those that vote for trump, those that stay home, and those that write in Bernie Sanders.

[Schema Thing]

6. well, it's certainly true that the shit will hit the fan quickly if Trump is elected

I'm not sure I'm confident that something healthy would emerge from the chaos though. Then again, I'm certain that Hillary "locks in" the Oligarchy for a long time, which is disastrous.

[Locrian]

9. that's the logic I keep hearing

that Hillary is a guarantee same old. And they're young enough to want change so bad that they're willing to wreck it.

[TIME TO PANIC]

21. The kids want a future!

Hillary promises business as usual, with minor tweaks here and there.

[onenote]

78. Those kids must not be gay, or Muslim, or African American, or women

or disabled, and so on and so forth.

Even worse, they apparently don't give a rat's ass about those whose lives will be irreparably harmed by a Trump presidency.

[TIME TO PANIC]

88. or they don't buy into the fear mongering. n/t

[onenote]

89. So you don't think a Trump presidency would be bad

for African Americans, immigrants, working poor (he opposes any change in the minimum wage), women (he doesn't support abortion rights and has attacked Planned Parenthood), Muslims and so forth.

What is the basis for your view that Trump, propelled to prominence by the most hateful wing of the Repub party, is really a benign puppy dog? Apart from your own blindness.

[TIME TO PANIC]

104. When did I say a Trump presidency wouldn't be bad?

I don't think he's a puppy dog, but I don't think he'll march us to the showers either. Trump has no ideology nor does he have any loyalty to his supporters; he's just pandering. If Trump where to become president (ain't gonna happen) he would never be able to implement any of the radical policies he has promised.

[TIME TO PANIC]

14. You hit the nail on the head.

If Hillary gets in, you can bet they will do everything they can to make sure another Sanders doesn't come along.

I could never vote for Trump, but I can see how reasonable people would take that gamble.

[GoneFishin]

29. That's it. Bernie is getting pretty damn close. If Hillary gets in then they will shore up all of

the weak spots to make damn sure it doesn't happen again.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

15. Either way you take it, we're still fucked.

[TIME TO PANIC]

35. Yep, we're fucked.

If Hillary gets in, things will be status quo for possibly eight years or longer.

If a republican gets in, it will more than likely be for only one term. The question is how much more damage can they potentially do?

[TrueDemVA]

53. Probably a lot, but

I am writing in Bernie if he is not the nominee. I want a future for my children and me and my wife, all of my friends, and everyone else out there. A vote for Hillary will surely be the end of any hope. Sounds bad, but she is just a horrible candidate.

[TM99]

37. I think it goes deeper.

Trump is not establishment. His policy are not all that different from Clinton's on so many issues and decidedly to the left on others. Truman said it best. If given the choice between a real Republican and a Democratic conservative, then the American people just vote for the real Republican.

[Doctor_J]

85. We're asked every four years to vote for the lesser of two evils. They are of the opinion that

in this case that is trump.

[Locrian]

7. I'm seeing it too

Lot's them at work (mid 20's) are saying there is NO way they will vote for 'her'. Some think trump is making sense (?!) and think he's less corrupted (wallstreet, iraq, etc).

I keep saying he'll be the FIRST to sell out in a NY second ... but even then they're willing to let it burn in order to have some change.

It's interesting from a psychological standpoint: in game theory it's been shown that if people think someone needs to be "punished" that they will even go against their interests to enact it. I think that's some of what we are seeing: they just really despise hrc

[BigBearJohn]

13. That's an interesting viewpoint. Never looked at it that way. Probably true.

[Locrian]

20. no free rider

It's a variant of the "no free rider".

First game, everyone has x tokens and and chose to put or not put into a pot. The pot gets multiplied and everyone shares. Obviously you can chose not to chip in - but you still benefit.
First run is blind - and after awhile the return drop as people try to maximize their own by not contributing.

THEN they run it with the ability to see and "penalize" those who don't put in - but it "costs" you to do so.
In the end, everyone participates and the return is higher that the first.


In this case - I think they see hrc is full of lies and deception and "getting away with it" and "winning". Not to mention "her" supporters dismissive/abusive/belitting attitude etc.

I think there is a very real desire to enact a "punishment" even though it will hurt them. In effect - at this stage it's an emotional reasoning. Not logical. Not sure if there is time / rebuilding that can change that.

[840high]

34. My grandsons despise her. Their

slogan is anyone but Hillary.

[grasswire]

75. and there's a YUGE part of America that wants HRC punished.

On both sides of the aisle. I would wager there's a majority of America that wants her punished, if we consider her negative numbers.

[lostnfound]

94. I'm seeing that too. I've met several who say it

They don't like trump's racism and xenophobia but maybe they think he is going to shake up status quo

[brewens]

109. If tRumps ego is big enough, I can see him being really difficult for the powers that be

to deal with. Maybe he won't be pushed around. I could also see him going full Bullworth if approached with something too unethical.

I have a feeling he's full of shit on some of the stuff he's been playing the half-wits with anyway.

I really still don't think he wants to be president. I'm not all that confident about anything I said above, I'd just hope he'd try and be a good president. I'll still vote for Hillary I suppose if she is nominated.

[Locrian]

12. short term

HRC and 'her' supporters are a classic example of short term gains / fix it later
they are totally unprepared that people are past the tipping point and will NOT come 'back to the fold'

The people I talk to are not joking.... they at a MIN will not vote. Most say they are voting for trump if Bernie is not in the GE

Trump is already turning to be less controversial - and he has a shit ton of legitimate ammunition to go after HRC

[dana_b]

10. can you talk to them abt another candidate

maybe Jill or even writing Bernie's name in? Trump is just the antithesis of Bernie

[jillan]

11. I'm afraid we'll see a lot of this. Hopefully as it gets closer to the GE people will have

a clearer picture.

[winter is coming]

22. Given her "untrustworthy" problem, I doubt it would help. n/t

[dorkzilla]

23. She may *say* what they want to hear to get elected

But she's entirely too compromised by entrenched interests and her own bank account to be sincere about those things.

[jeff47]

44. Not gonna work. The problem with getting a reputation for saying anything to get elected

is people assume you are saying anything to get elected.

[djean111]

59. Um, no one would actually believe Hillary, at this point.

She is known for pandering and changing to fit the polls and focus groups.

There is no longer any there, there, when it comes to Hillary's campaign or platform. We can just go by deeds and the past. Which - not good.

I am hearing the same thing, by the way.

[grasswire]

76. too transparent

They won't fall for it. And shouldn't.

[swilton]

17. A third Billary term imho

is worse than a first Trump term....

Yes regularly listen to Chomsky, TYT, - I can never see that woman in the oval office....Her election not only represents Billary @ 3, it validates and perpetuates DNC and Democratic Party corruption.

[TIME TO PANIC]

18. At least try to get them to vote down ticket democrat.

If the democrats can take the house and senate, they can obstruct, just like the republicans have for the last eight years.

[All in it together]

95. The down ticket races will be very important no matter who is president

Especially if it isn't Bernie.

[SmittynMo]

19. I don't doubt what I just read.

However, I certainly hope the stupidity is not rampant. Scary shit though. The question is why?

[noretreatnosurrender]

25. Why?

Maybe they are of the opinion that with Trump elected the Democrats will actually have to be an opposition Party. If Hillary is elected the establishment Dems will support whatever she proposes (including Republican approved policies). Maybe they would rather fight a Republican (with Democratic allies) from getting his policies passed than get stabbed in the back by the Democrats and no ally to help them fight it?

[inchhigh]

56. Yes. This is it.

My biggest fear is that if Billary gets in there will be Zero opposition from the left. She will push these awful corporate friendly reforms (like either privatizing social security or dumping the trust fund into the stock market) and the people who SHOULD be fighting that will be cheering her on, somehow believing she is protecting us from something worse.

I wonder sometimes if the whole impeachment crap wasn't a con game from the right, suckering us into supporting a guy that was really not trying to help us because the big bad republicans were just so obviously unfair to him.

[noretreatnosurrender]

60. Sadly It's a Legitimate Fear

Which shows how upside down our Party has become.

[grasswire]

82. the Clintons DO love being or acting like victims. nt

[SoapBox]

24. This is the first I've heard of such...

I would never, ever consider placing my vote for a Puke.

Nor for a Clinton...I'll write in, if needed, someone I adore and is our last hope for true change.

[abelenkpe]

26. I have heard this as well from coworkers in their 20s

I don't think it helps them to see reason when pundits comedians and politicians are calling them stupid, unreasonable and childish.

[LyndaG]

27. They musn't care about the issues

Senator Sanders is nothing like Trump.

[Doctor_J]

43. Sanders is nothing like Hillary either

She is a conservative whom no one trusts

[LyndaG]

70. She's pro-choice and pro-ACA

When they were both in the Senate, they voted the same way 93 percent of the time. That's close enough for me.

[Doctor_J]

84. She is publicly on board with curbing reproductive rights, and believes insurance executives are mor

important than the health of the citizens. And voting with Bernie on a new name for a post office is not good enough for me

[LyndaG]

98. She will appoint Pro-Choice judges to the Supreme Court

Trump has said women who have abortions should be punished.

[TDale313]

87. And if your biggest issues are...

You went to college, got a degree, are $100,000 in debt and still can't find a job that'll get you out of your parents' basement?

[oldandhappy]

28. Hope they will consider Green or writing in Bernie.

I understand the frustration very well! I am terrified of Cruz. Sort of terrified of the DNC to be honest!

[Kip Humphrey]

30. It isn't Bernie or Bust, it's Anti-Establishment or Bust.

[BigBearJohn]

41. Wish I said that

[JDPriestly]

45. Maybe it is anti-trade-agreements or bust? I'm wondering not even guessing.

Could it be anti-trade-agreements or bust?

I don't see Trump doing a thing about the environment. But then I don't see Hillary doing anything adequate about it either.

[Kip Humphrey]

55. That could be a powerful argument for some well informed voters (e.g., Bernicrats).

[Lone_Wolf]

31. I just can't see how Trump would be President

Even if he were elected, I would not be at all surprised if there was a military against him. Yes, I think the Establishment would go that far.

[shanti]

38. trump doesn't worry me as much as

the people who would be behind him, i.e., the puppet masters. all the old neocons would be propping him up, and the *ush administration would continue behind the scenes. doubt he'd want another term, though.

i still don't trust hill/bill any farther than i could throw them.

[silvershadow]

32. Yep. And I haven't ruled it out. He appears to be, overall, to the LEFT of her.

And he just shifted gears into general election mode, with a change of persona. What a mess it will be.

[noamnety]

33. I think the logic is

similar to having to burn the village in order to save it.

Trump would be a one termer, and hopefully Hillary would get the message that it's never going to happen for her, and she would just stop running, and the second term would be a more progressive democrat, and help move the party in the correct direction. 4 years of libertarianism with a dose of racism added in, followed by potentially 4 years of lefty policies.

Hillary on the other hand could possibly be a two termer of neoliberalism- or if one term, she would be replaced by a republican anyway. And some certainly believe the Clinton policies have promoted racism. So 8 years of right wing policies and some racism either way.

I disagree with some here who think it's about hating her as an individual. I'm sure that's true for some voters, but I really think it has more to do with hating corporate control of our country and understanding that the 1% are really having control of ALL aspects of our world.

Also I think there's some confusion as to Trump's sincerity vs, pandering to the right for votes - he might be a democrat running as a republican, while hillary's a ... well, let's just say a right-of-center politician ... running as a democrat.

[Ino]

61. ^^^ THIS ^^^

Plus, Congress starts heading in the direction opposite the President's party. Obama started out with both houses Democratic (which he squandered). Two years later, we lost the House. Then we lost the Senate.

So if a Repuke is elected, chances are Dems will regain Congress in short order.

Hillary will not get primaried. If she's elected, there will not be a chance of another Dem in the WH for 8 years. But if a Repuke is elected, there is another chance in 4 years, and hopefully Hillary will have given up or will have little backing for a 3rd try.

Many who would rather vote for Trump than Hillary are not doing it because they like Trump, or to punish Hillary by voting against their own interests, but are thinking ahead 2 years, and 4 years -- how to turn Congress ASAP, how to get another chance for a real Progressive President ASAP.

As for the SCOTUS argument, Obama has neutralized it. He chose someone SO CONSERVATIVE that Repukes are rethinking their vow to not vote for anyone he nominates. Hillary would do the same, in order to "get things done" -- and she has ZERO intention of overturning Citizens United, especially before she needs that $$$ for her second term GE campaign. Anyone she chooses will be corporate-friendly. And seeing as how she's already indicated she's willing to compromise on abortion, I doubt that would be a litmus test either.

As noamnety said, if a Repuke is installed, the Dems will function as a real opposition party, rather than Hillary's collection of bought/bribed/bullied cohorts. I've heard it said a Repuke could never tamper with Social Security or the like -- it would take a DEMOCRAT to do that. It would take a Hillary.

[grasswire]

83. I disagree.

Hillary will not serve a full term, IMO, if she is elected. Her health will become a factor, or the corruption will force her out.

[Ino]

90. Oh, I hope you are right!!

There are things to look forward to should she get installed.

[sandpan]

36. I am over 65 years old and

I am a life-long democrat. If Bernie does not win the democratic nomination, I will be voting for Trump.

[mahina]

47. You think he is capable of the job?

What's your reasoning if I may ask?

[onenote]

79. So you apparently don't give a rat's ass about gays, African-Americans, women, the disabled

Muslims and all the other groups that will be irreparably harmed or endangered by a Trump presidency.

Why are you here?

[jack_krass]

99. I personally will not vote for Trump, but the notion that Blacks

Latinos, Muslims, and other groups would be persecuted under a Trump presidency is horseshit, and even racist. Its a scare tactic, and an insilult ro most peoples intellegence.

[deepestblue]

39. Prediction

Trump will win the GE in a landslide, unless he is facing Sanders in which case Trump will lose in a landslide.

[Karma13612]

40. Yup, +100 nt

[ReasonableToo]

42. Bill encouraged trump to get involved in GOP. Either HRC or Trump will

Be same set of staff/cabinet: whomever Bill wants.

If someone is going to throw away a vote, write-in or Stein would make more of a statement than Trump. That would be preferable to staying home too.

Note: I'm not advocating for not supporting nominee. Just what to do if they have already decided to not vote for nominee.

[Joob]

48. I'm thinking third party Jill Stein

If Bernie doesn't win, then make effort to truly make a liberal party

[bahrbearian]

69. +1

That sends a better message

[greymouse]

49. In their state counts writeins

ask them to write in.

My state does and that's what I plan to do. If it didn't, I am so angry at Clinton, who is not only corrupt and incompetent, but blocking votes from Sanders voters with her dirty tricks politics, that although I had planned to vote Green to help the Greens stay on the ballot, the thought of voting for Trump crossed my mind.

If Bernie is not the nominee and enough people write him in, the election could wind up with the electoral college really deciding.

[My Good Babushka]

51. I would not vote for Trump

but I think he is, oddly enough, less motivated by money than Clinton. He has has amassed and lost fortunes, and is more motivated by his own vanity and feelings of prestige he gets from his admirers. In some instances, I could imagine someone saying to him "This guy over here says you can't get our country off of fossil fuels, or she told me you can't get universal healthcare." And he might make the hardest stab at it anyone ever has, just out of his own ludicrous vanity.

[vt_native]

52. I can't vote for HRC

Just can't...

Maybe write in Bernie,vote Green, or Trump, even.

I suspect many feel this way.

Flame on!

[AgerolanAmerican]

58. hate to say I told you so, but...

Anti-establishment voters aren't going to come out for an uber-establishment candidate, they're going to flock to another anti-establishment candidate.

Even if that candidate is Trump.

I found this site in frustration after seeing my neighbors (normally Democratic voters) do just that in the SC open primary.

[magical thyme]

62. Trump is against TPP, far more likely to be isolationist than warhawk

and will leave social security alone.

His bluster is mainly that. Imo, they could do far worse.

[Gman]

64. Right wing trolls abound on DU.

You made that shit up. Admit it.

[nashville_brook]

65. that's actually very common.

[johnp3907]

66. They're idiots.

[bahrbearian]

67. Trump is Scarey, we don't know what he'll do.

Hillary is worst because we know what she will do.

[stopbush]

68. Is anyone surprised? They're just buying the nasty negative crap

that Sen Sanders and his campaign have been throwing out there about Hillary.

Hell, if I was a naif to politics, I might believe some of that crap as well. Not everybody gets that Sanders saying Hillary is unqualified is just primary rhetoric along the lines of Trump "playing a role." Some Sanders supporters actually take the Senator at his word, rather than seeing the ploy for what it is - a short-term strategy to win a few votes.

The rest of us realize that were Sanders to win the nomination the first person he would call on to campaign for him would be Hillary, followed by Obama. That's just smart politics.

[elias7]

100. Disagree

Remember it was Hillary who started negative against Bernie... She and Chelsea mischaracterized his healthcare position.

But don't put this on Bernie. This stuff was out there before he came along. If you want to keep sowing the seeds of intraparty discord, keep up the condescending attitude towards Bernie supporters.

[Autumn]

72. You post has been alerted. I am not inclined to lock it and shut down discussion

I will not act on alerts sent by non members of our group. I will send you the alert.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

73. That's crazy.

[KPN]

74. Hillary Grouip post calls this the worst, most hateful post they have ever seen on DU!

Fight's on!

[grasswire]

86. LOL

They don't get out much.

[Doctor_J]

91. Probably the tenth one this week

The sense of entitlement borders on the pathological

[Autumn]

112. They could always trash this group but where

else could they get their daily requirement of vitamin Outrage

[onenote]

77. Your nephew and his buddies are incredibly stupid.

[RazBerryBeret]

80. ummm....yeah....

my 19 y/o and his friends are the same. He's never heard the term "lesser of two evils" so there's been a lot of discussion around here.

[deepestblue]

92. Trump

Trump will most definitely win in an utter landslide unless he is facing Sanders in which case Trump may only win in the deep south.

[EdwardBernays]

93. If it's Trump v Clinton

Trump will most likely win...

And either way America will have a President that the majority distrust and dislike.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

102. they would be voting for Hitler II

[hollysmom]

103. I hte to say this because it is so bad, but my Niece and her husband said the same thing

they are in their late 20's and I don't consider them informed voters, Heck it took me a long time to talk them into voting for Sanders instead of Trump to begin with, Nothing will make them vote for Clinton, taht ship has sailed they don't want 4 years of impeachment. The best I am hoping is them not voting.

[DrDan]

105. Not unexpected

[Agnosticsherbet]

106. If they vote for Trump, they want a racist, misogynist President.

Anyone who votes for Trump wants Trump and all the Republicans will give them.

It is that simple.

[Autumn]

113. Yes, it is also simple enough for you to post that in your group.

[Contrary1]

108. Here's how your thread is being described:

White college kids are having a sad, so fuck African Americans, Latinos, LGBT, etc., etc.:

The definition of privilege.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1107113533

[CoffeeCat]

111. What a load of bullshit that is!!

We are fighting privilidge, corruption, lie-based wars and the disgusting prevalence of corporate influence in our political system!

No one believes that this movement is "privilidged" --not even the Hillary supporters who try to spread that slop.

Nice try though.

[CoffeeCat]

110. Trump and Hillary have very high favorables

and many Independents cannot stand Hillary. She polls terribly with Indies. Where exactly does everyone think those Indies will go?

Republicans would swim across shark-infested waters to vote against Hillary, she loses the majority of Indies and 25 percent of Dems won't vote for her.

What a great recipe for disaster!

What does Hillary care though what her numbers are? She's been stealing her way across these primaries, she'll do it again in the GE.