This message was self-deleted by its author

[redqueen]

This message was self-deleted by its author (redqueen) on Tue May 15, 2012, 11:26 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[klook]

1. Haha, a male friend of mine told me about

Male Answer Syndrome, which I guess is the everyday version of this phenomenon. This account is so well written, I will have to read Solnit's book on Muybridge -- and not just the review.

As a guy, I know I've done this a time or two, but I haven't consciously meant to put a woman down -- just to show off, maybe... although, as she points out, knowing anything about the subject at hand is not necessary to this kind of pontificator.

Hey, I thought feminists were dour and humorless! Thanks for posting.

[hlthe2b]

12. I think the behavior is socialized early on. Look at boys in the classroom...

and how the girls become intimidated into silence, into denying their own intelligence, or worse, giving up in some unfortunate desire to placate the boys--become acceptable and accepted.

The only way this pattern will be truly broken is when enlightened parents work to immunize their chldren--both male and female--from this and to instill equality of respect.

And yes for any who are sensitized to the fact this article is discussing the issue in men, I can absolutely acknowledge women doing similar and probably in more frequency in recent decades. I suspect they do so in an attempt try to adopt the practices they see working among men, but it is the same pattern of behavior nonetheless. It is no more appropriate when women do so, than it would be with men, This condescending behavior is classical DOMINANCE behavior--meant to intimidate and silence others.

[Control-Z]

2. My future ex mansplained

to me just yesterday. "Boys will be boys." "It's just going to have to be that way."

Re: Mitt Romney, his bullying and the 2012 election. (Is there a "Just Shoot Me Now" smilie?) I informed him, a registered democrat, he had officially become a republican then, and a Neanderthal. He's even got himself a rich little, married, pro-lifer (abortion clinic protester) girlfriend.

I offered to change his party affiliation for him. Lol.

[Gore1FL]

3. I just voted to NOT hide this thread on a jury.

It is important to note Women speak without facts too. Ignorance and being loud about it knows no gender.

I just thought I'd mention that.

[iverglas]

4. why is it important to say that in the History of Feminism group?

Did you think the article cited in the OP was about men speaking without facts?

Thanks, though, and seriously, for letting us know that the watchful eyes are ever on the group and the alert buttons getting dutifully pushed. We wouldn't want to think that we were not being kept under the proper scrutiny!

Heck, we might have forgotten, otherwise.

[Gore1FL]

5. Thanks for missing the point and being other than nice about it! n/t

Last edited Sun May 13, 2012, 04:42 PM - Edit history (1)

[iverglas]

7. I'm sorry, but it appears to me that you are the one who missed the point

Entirely and completely.

Did you read the article the post was about at all?

Yes, guys like this pick on other men's books too, and people of both genders pop up at events to hold forth on irrelevant things and conspiracy theories, but the out-and-out confrontational confidence of the totally ignorant is, in my experience, gendered. Men explain things to me, and other women, whether or not they know what they're talking about. Some men.

Every woman knows what I'm talking about. It's the presumption that makes it hard, at times, for any woman in any field; that keeps women from speaking up and from being heard when they dare; that crushes young women into silence by indicating, the way harassment on the street does, that this is not their world. It trains us in self-doubt and self-limitation just as it exercises men's unsupported overconfidence.

If there was a point to your post other than an apparent attempt to do this (ta, redqueen):

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/entitlement.html

But That Happens To Me Too!
In attempting to communicate with you, the Marginalised Person™ may bring up examples of the sorts of daily manifestations of discrimination they face. Many of these examples seem trivial to Privileged People® but clearly reflect the way the Marginalised Person™ has been “othered” by society. “Othering” is a system of social markers that defines “Us” and “them”, neatly and conveniently categorising people into their appropriate places within society. It’s a way of defining a secured and positive position in the world by stigmatising “others”. In other words, it’s the process of dehumanising anyone different to the Chosen Privileged.

... What this demonstrates is your total lack of understanding of what “othering” means in a practical sense. You’re ignoring the way your life is otherwise entirely immersed in a state of absolute privilege and revealing the fact you fail to comprehend the process of objectification and marginalising they go through all the time. When you are Privileged®, “similar” experiences simply do not happen on an equal footing because they do not otherwise reflect marginalisation. This obliviousness is highly insensitive and trivialising and will definitely cause them to grind their teeth!

But it’s also an important step in affirming your privilege: Privileged People® are accustomed, after all, to it being “all about them”. Not used to simply sitting back and listening to othered people‘s issues, Privileged People® like to be the centre of attention at all times. It reminds them that they are important. By doing this, you will feel good about yourself and send a crucial message to the Marginalised Person™ (yes you really can diminish their experience by making it all about you, all the time!).

it would be a good idea to explain it, rather than attacking a member of the protected group you have decided to post in.

[Gore1FL]

10. Nevermind.

Your "out-and-out confrontational confidence" goes a long way in "revealing the fact you fail to comprehend the process of objectification and marginalising" that you are demonstrating in this "protected group."

I wasn't attacking anyone. I pointed out that that the problem wasn't gender based. I thank you for proving the point.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. fwiw, I didn't think you were attacking anyone either...

While I've met more than a few women who are just like that guy the author talked about in Aspen, I've also encountered similar things from males that are gender-based, especially when it comes to careers and especially areas that are or were male dominated

While I disliked the author of the article and her self-important attitude, I've got no idea why anyone would be bothered enough by the article that they would have alerted on it. As badly written and self-centred as it was, it was pretty harmless...

[iverglas]

14. "and being obnoxious about it"

Last edited Sun May 13, 2012, 01:59 PM - Edit history (2)

-- with no attempt to explain or clarify or engage or seek explanation or clarification or engagement.

That isn't attacking a member of a protected group. Nope.

And entering a thread about the way women experience the world and saying "women do that too" ...

This group will also serve as safe haven for women (and supporters of feminism) to openly and honestly discuss and learn how the patriarchy affects women individually and collectively.

If someone doesn't think it does, and doesn't acknowledge the ways in which it does ... and thinks that an article by a learnèd and accomplished woman about how it has affected her is "self-centred" ...



edit ...it is truly amazing how I cannot type a subject line w/o a typo.
... and then there were the other typos. I'm awake now ...

[iverglas]

15. again

I pointed out that that the problem wasn't gender based.

You did not point out anything.

You made a cryptic claim that contradicts the thesis of the article posted, and the experience of many woman including at least some women in this group.

The "problem" is not "Ignorance and being loud about". If you think that is what the author of the article was talking about, you missed the point.

If you really feel a need to argue in this group that a problem that women experience is not gender-based, I suppose you could do that.

But you really don't need to expect that everyone here will agree with you, or just say nothing, simply because you decide to come along and type a sentence asserting that the thesis presented is wrong (and the experience of women here is accordingly imaginary or whatever your "point" might be).

And you really don't need to be calling me obnoxious for calling you on that.

It seems there is really very little point in having a protected group with a Statement of Purpose that participants are expected to adhere to when this sort of thing happens, let alone is condoned.

[Gore1FL]

16. You've already proven my point. n/t

[iverglas]

17. why are you here?

Why are you persisting in speaking this way to a member of a protected group?

You had one reason to post here: to inform members that a post had been alerted on and passed by a jury. Excellent.

You took the opportunity to make a claim about the subject of this thread itself. Your claim contradicts the thesis of the article the thread is about and the experience of many women. Given that this is the experience of many women, your claim contradicts the statement that expresses the intent of this group. Have you got around to reading it yet?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=about&forum=1255

The History of Feminism group serves as a safe haven to discuss, and learn the history of feminism. Apply the lessons of historical and modern day feminist struggles to current issues and events that impact women. This group will also serve as safe haven for women (and supporters of feminism) to openly and honestly discuss and learn how the patriarchy affects women individually and collectively.

I can tell you how your posts are inconsistent with that statement. Can you tell me how they are consistent?

Have you bothered to read the post pinned at the top of the forum?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12551799

There are some very basic rules all participants are expected to follow:

1) No bringing personal fights/issues/problems from other groups or past grievances with a particular member or members to this group
2) No posting jury results
3) No individual personal call outs of any DUer
4) Be respectful at all times, even if an opinion is at odds with that of another poster
5) No bullying
6) Repeated violation of the rules or a refusal to adhere to them when approached by hosts will result in being blocked from the group.

Leaving aside (2), how does your post to me reflect the letter, let alone the spirit, of (4) and (5)? How does a post doing nothing but calling a member of the group "obnoxious" do that? How does responding to posts seeking an explanation of your remarks by repeated one-liners claiming to have won something amount to the kind of sincere discussion that is obviously expected of participants in this protected group's forum?

Please do not reply again to my posts unless you are prepared to address the subject matter of this thread and the claims you have made about the thesis presented. Personal invective is of no interest to me and has no place here.

[Gore1FL]

18. Because you keep insisting on elongating an argument that you already lost. n/t

[hlthe2b]

19. I'm going to assume best intentions on this subthread & have already done so with respect to

bringing a frivolous and inappropriate alert to the attention of this group. However, this is a safe haven group for the purpose of discussing issues specific to the group, per our SOP.. There may be any number of discussions, points, or side issues that posters feel important to point out, but if that is off topic to the group's SOP then I would respectfully ask that this discussion cease and be left for GD or other general groups/forums.

The focus here is on feminism and specifically: The History of Feminism group serves as a safe haven to discuss, and learn the history of feminism. Apply the lessons of historical and modern day feminist struggles to current issues and events that impact women. This group will also serve as safe haven for women (and supporters of feminism) to openly and honestly discuss and learn how the patriarchy affects women individually and collectively"

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


hlthe2b
Group Host

[Control-Z]

20. I believe he was attempting

caveman heroics, Iverglas. After all, HE did save us poor, ignorant, loud, women. He said so himself. He was a strong juror in our defense.

I think we were supposed to thank him for his wisdom and mercy since we were surely undeserving. That's the way it came off to me. Men can be so funny!!

[iverglas]

21. ah

[seabeyond]

32. you are a man, i am a b and they say we are ugly? oh me. oh my. lol

what is that shit about.

nevermind.

done and tired. tired and done.

[Texasgal]

35. I've seen you do this to other posters

here and before in our old group. When you disagree can you stop being so damn condescending? Not all of us are fully educated on Feminist issues. Some of us are here to learn and understand.

I must say that I am very happy that you are NOT a host. You have so much to share and so much that we could learn from you if you'd just stop with the condescending attitude!

Can you stop please?

[iverglas]

40. and just out of curiosity

How exactly do you feel about the charmer who spent four or five posts in H&M today telling me and the world I am a man?

C'mon. Easy question.

[hlthe2b]

13. I appreciate your bringing this to our attention. That someone would think such a post SHOULD be

hidden says quite a bit in and of itself. sigh.... (and yes, I am glad that in THIS case, rational people won out)

[klook]

23. Oh, GMAFB!

Are you listening to yourself? Do you wade into discussions about racism to point out that black people belittle white people sometimes, too! Do you "not see color" like Stephen Colbert?!?!

If you truly believe "it goes both ways" and that men and women are on equal footing when it comes to this issue, you need to study some more.

As a male, I don't pretend to fully comprehend what it feels like to be a woman in this society, but I sure as heck don't pretend that I have the same problems with reflexive disrespect, or that overbearing, dominant behavior is gender neutral!

My recommendation if you care about understanding women better: Listen more than talk.

[iverglas]

6. "... by indicating, the way harassment on the street does,

... that this is not their world."

And that is what so much of everything is all about. It's what porn and "risqué" jokes in the workplace are about, just as a for instance that comes to mind.

And it's what all excluded and marginalized groups experience. It's what anti-Muslim cartoons in Danish newspapers, gleefully reproduced around the world, are all about, too. This is not your world. It is ours, and we are going to make sure you know it and remember it.

But you know, it's really all about the rights of the dominant "in" groups. Their freedom to do whatever the fuck they want, and in particular to say whatever the fuck they want to and about the excluded and marginalized groups. Free speech, baby.

It's just so very, very odd that what they so often want to do is marginalize and exclude.

[Control-Z]

8. There is something very wrong

when a member comes into the group and alerts on an OP like this. Some poor sensitive man, I would guess, watching his right to control women slipping away.

[laconicsax]

9. The privileged rarely understand that they don't belong everywhere.

I see so many cases of the privileged majorities on DU wandering into protected groups and not understanding that they can't have the run of the place.

[iverglas]

43. since this thread has gone to hell in a handbasket anyway

I'd just like to review my independent contributions to this History of Feminism group -- that being what I had actually expected the subject of discussions here to be.


Margaret Sanger...
- where the OP did not return, but I busted my ass to get true facts into this forum

a little thread about the history of Canadian feminism ...

feminism, temperance and prostitution

words used to describe women throughout the ages

speaking of advanced thinking in the distant past (Mary Wolllstonecraft)

women and prison reform

so educate me ... on the ERA


Hmm. Then it looks like I kinda gave up. My dear Violet Crumble -- I don't think I saw your name in any of those threads, even the one you started.

But I'm the bogeywoman, you betcha.