2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHere is what I dont understand. And I really want to.
There are hundreds of posts, dozens of threads, EACH DAY on DU outlining a gazillion alleged reasons why Hillary Clinton is really really bad. Why she is not a liberal or a progressive and it is implied that voting for her is the SAME as voting republican.
Some of the criticism is accurate and fair, much of it isnt.
I mean this is almost ALL of what goes on now in the GDP forum. There is some of the reverse, but a fraction at best.
I used to say "As a Bernie supporter", but let me just say as an American, not a Democrat, not a Bernie supporter, just as an American, what good does it do to say this over and over again when you KNOW pretty much EVERY SINGLE person who participates here has made up their minds?
Now I know why a Karl Rove would want people not to vote for Hillary "no matter what" but for the god damn life of me I dont know why anyone alleging they are a liberal would.
I must assume that thread after thread, post after post of tearing Hillary apart is meant to not just promote Bernie, but to harm Hillary (politically).
If she is the nominee, who wins when she is harmed? This is an easy one, folks.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Response to randys1 (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
GusBob
(7,290 posts)As Skinner has indicated, it is human nature.
Conflict is part of human interactions, from literature and drama to sports and politics all the way to war and genocide
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I see 10x more complaining about these threads that I don't see than actual threads. I have seen some. Some of them are indeed ridiculous. A lot make valid points which are then dismissed, that happens more often than not. If you consider that there is 9-1 support of Bernie here then you would think that there would be a lot more threads like is claimed. I see almost an equal number of posts that are anti-Bernie. Now that is a head scratcher. I just don't know how many anti-Bernie posts stand at Bernie Underground.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)You're making the mistake of thinking all of our votes count.
If Clinton is the nominee, my state will be giving its electoral votes to the Republican. (There is a very slim chance for Sanders or O'Malley, but most likely it will go Republican with either of them too)
As a result, my vote will not affect the outcome of the election. That is also the case for people who live in very "blue" states.
Only a very small number of voters actually matter in the general election, and the vast majority of us are not them.
Posts are not about changing any participant's mind. There are about 100 lurkers for every participant, and that pool of lurkers is not constant (people come, people go).
merrily
(45,251 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Wait what why is that?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)I see some of those anti-Clinton posts are ...
surprise, surprise ...
yours.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Like a month ago.
That's what it was.
MADem
(135,425 posts)As soon as we reach Super Tuesday, that will abate.
I think there will be a massive exodus from this website as the disappointed 'activists' go to ground.
Some might hang around and post doom-and-gloom "concern" posts for the general election process, but they'll have to keep their heads down. That kind of thing is more noticeable once we're out of primary season.
Dawgs
(14,755 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Dawgs
(14,755 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Dawgs
(14,755 posts)And, I'm not going to stop now.
BTW, here's the TOS. I can support and still be critical. Nothing here says otherwise.
MADem
(135,425 posts)For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear. For non-presidential contests, election season begins on Labor Day. Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.
Our candidate will be pretty apparent come Super Tuesday. Now, if the GOP is still in flux, you can lean on that "both major-party nominees" caveat when it comes to defining general election season, but I wouldn't count on it to hold you in good stead for too terribly long.
There will come a point in time where the focus will be on winning in 2016. At that point, a lot of critiquing and crabbing is considered unhelpful to that goal. That's when this piece kicks in:
One more thing: Don't push your luck.
The DU Community Standards state: "It is the responsibility of all DU members to participate in a manner that promotes a positive atmosphere and encourages good discussions among a diverse community of people holding a broad range of center-to-left viewpoints." Members who demonstrate a pattern of disruptive behavior over time and end up getting too many of their posts hidden by the jury (measured by raw number or percentage) may be found to be in violation of our Terms of Service. If you seem to be ruining this website for a large proportion of our visitors, if we think the community as a whole would be better off without you here, if you are constantly wasting the DU Administrators' time, if you seem to oppose the mission of DU, or if the DU Administrators just don't like you, we will revoke your posting privileges. Remember: DU is supposed to be fun don't make it suck.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Speechless
I could have said "bashed", i didnt.
Dawgs
(14,755 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Many of us will work ourselves to near exhaustion to prevent rightwing terrorists from taking over the WH, so I wonder why anyone else would be here?
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)This is non-negotiable, and your opinion has absolutely no bearing on reality, which has a tendency to just keep on keeping on.
MADem
(135,425 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Anti-Clinton
Neutral
Anti-Sanders
Pro-O'Malley
Pro-Sanders
Anti-Sanders
Pro-Sanders
Anti-Sanders
Anti-Clinton-Supporters
Pro-Clinton
"It's not over yet"
Pro-Sanders
Polls Suck
Anti-Sanders
Self-deleted
Anti-Clinton
Anti-Sanders
Pro-Sanders
Anti-Clinton
Pro-Sanders
Polls are awesome
Anti-Sanders-Supporters
Anti-Sanders
Pro-Sanders
Anti-Clinton
Anti-Both
Anti-Clinton
Pro-Clinton
Polls are sorta awesome and sorta not awesome
Anti-Sanders
Pro-Sanders
Polls are awesome
Anti-Clinton
Polls are awesome
Anti-Sanders-Supporters
Pro-Sanders
Pro-Sanders
Anti-Sanders
Pro-Clinton/Anti-Sanders
Pro-Sanders
Anti-Sanders
Anti-Sanders
Pro-Clinton
Pro-Clinton
Polls are awesome
Pro-Sanders
Pro-Clinton
Anti-Clinton-Supporter (specific)
Anti-Clinton
Anti-Sanders
Anti-Sanders
Neutral
Pro-Clinton
Anti-Clinton-Supporter (specific)
Anti-Sanders
Anti-Clinton-Supporters
Pro-Sanders
Polls suck
Polls are awesome
Polls are awesome
Pro-Sanders
Shut up and vote for Clinton
Pro-Sanders
Polls are awesome
Pro-Sanders
Pro-MSNBC
Pro-Clinton
Anti-Sanders
Anti-DLC
Pro-Clinton
Pro-Sanders
Pro-Clinton/Suck on this Sanders supporters!
Hidden by Jury
Pro-Sanders
Anti-Clinton
Anti-Clinton
Pro-Clinton
All Democrats are better than Republicans
17.9% Anti-Clinton or Anti-Clinton-Supporter
24.4% Anti-Sanders or Anti-Sanders-Supporter
Now, tell me again how DU is all anti-HRC, all the time.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)beerandjesus
(1,301 posts)Just think how uneven it would be if they weren't spending half their time over in the cave!
Great post!
Andy823
(11,498 posts)Is not the same as anti Sanders supporters.
Most of those who support Bernie do so "without" resorting to bashing the other candidates. I applaud those supporters. However there is also a group that started out bashing "Obama", then the party, then any politician that they did no agree with, then they want to purge the party, then they started their own group to "change" the party, and then they decided to go after Hillary and bash here.
I think Bernie is a great man, and if O'Malley drops out he is my second choice, but no matter who wins I will be voting for them against any of the morons in the clown car from the GOP, that's a fact. Those who constantly find questionable BS to bash Hillary with, are NOT really supporting Bernie. They actually are making Bernie look bad, not good. Like I say most of his supporters are not doing the bashing, just a sub grip of trouble makers.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Don't they know their place?!
Andy823
(11,498 posts)I was talking about the trouble makers who just like to bash and trash, you low the ones who hate the party, yet come here to post. For the life of me I don't know why they post here, a site for democrats, instead of starting their own "anti" everything underground.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)I'm pissed that I have voted for decades, and never had a candidate on my ballot I actually wanted to vote for. Instead, I got a bunch of DLC-style Democrats, because "that's the only way to win!!". Nevermind that they lose more than they win.
So yeah, I'm a Democrat. And I'm working to get the party back from the DLC. According to your post, I'm supposed to shut up and follow meekly along instead.
MeNMyVolt
(1,095 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)This doesn't mean all the unbolded ones are pro-Hillary/anti-Sanders...there are "neutral" comments in the pile, like polling data and exhortations for unity.
Further, this is in the wake of the Sanders campaign making a HUGE (yuuuuuuuuge?) tactical mistake by having the untested, inexperienced press secretary try to order the press to not ask questions about a specific topic (ISIS). That generated a large number of posts--and deservedly so. His campaign screwed up and people noticed. The vast majority of the critical posts are about that particular issue, they aren't generic "Waaaah Bernie sux" posts, or "Let's dig into Bernie's past/Bernie's wife's past and try to make something of it" posts, either.
New USAToday/Suffolk poll: Hillary 56%-BS 29%
Is Sanders making a tactical campaign mistake?
Hillary supporters here obviously don't care about Baltimore
Bernie Sanders biggest limitation
Here is what I dont understand. And I really want to.
#BlackLivesMatter Activist #MarteseJohnson ENDORSES Bernie Sanders for President
HIGHEST RECOMMENDED KOS DIARY: "Dear Hillary Clinton supporters"
Show of hands...who even has a traditional landline anymore?
Coping strategies when your candidate is losing in polls.
Not Good Enough, Bernie!!! Part 83 [View all]
Bernie Plays the Press Like a Fiddle: Old School FTW!
Americans Get Testy With Media After It Disrupts a Presser on Poverty to Ask About ISIS.
I await rebuttals he said.
Sunshine State Poll-HRC 60% SBS 27%/HRC leads all GO(PU) opponents by > 7 points
My criticism of and opposition to Hillary has nothing to do with my support of Bernie
It's going to be a close election!!! It's December 8 and we don't know if it will be Giuliani or
BREAKING: HILLARY PROVIDES FAVOR TO GOLDMAN-BACHED MINERAL FIRM WHILE SECRETARY OF STATE
Panic in Hilaryland. Rap legends 60-Cent, Poop Dogg and Lil Peni$ endorse Bernie Sanders
It IS the 2007 primary all over again! The Clintonista PUMAs are back right on schedule!!!
Bernie Sanders has shown us today his will to take control
Hip Hop Legend Bun B Endorses Bernie Sanders for President
'The National Rifle Association put me on the cover of one of their magazines.
Hillary in Iowa today Dec 9--3 stops: Photos of Waterloo Iowa Town Hall here...
Bernie Sanders: Donald Trump wants to distract us from wealth inequality.
This message was self-deleted by its author
Why hillary Clinton isn't considered trustworthy.
"Don't ask about ISIS today" Takes Campaign Incompetence To A Higher Level
Zephyr Teachout endorses Bernie Sanders
Hillary Clinton just disqualified herself as Commander in Chief
Brooha over Bernie's "Brashness", but Clinton's Caustic character? Media could care less.
Donald Trump Utilizes Racism, but Hillary Clinton Used Similar Tactics Against Obama in 2008
Clinton aims to stop 'earnings stripping' to curb inversion deals
3 Points: Rubio is likeliest Repub nominee. Sanders beats Rubio by 4%. Rubio beats Clinton by 3%.
Bernie Sanders just disqualified himself as Commander in Chief
Bernie stands up for AA communities, gets criticized for it (video)
Clinton holds big lead on Sanders in Iowa
Trump and Clinton Eat the Same Food
If Bernie had talked about ISIS today, he wouldn't have been able to talk about racism and poverty.
The events today prove that Bernie is the best candidate for President
Bernie Sanderss one-dimensional campaign is hurting him badly
Hillary eyes early Sanders KO
And Bernie Sanders compared a neighborhood to a 3rd World Country.
Recent events expose Bernie as not ready for primetime
Will Bernie's outburst in Baltimore hurt him in the polls?
#lovetrumpshate - Hillary's new hashtag- something everyone can agree on- even Trump supporters
Gov. Howard Dean in Iowa for Hillary Clinton
The other side of HRC's lead in MSNBC/Telemundo/Marist poll
$50 more for Senator Sanders...
Bill Clinton will hold TV remote priveledges in a #hillyes WH.
Don't let the names of sources fool you. Just look at Progressives Today. [View all] 68
Hillary's NO-dimensional campaign is hurting her badly
Too many young people are denied the opportunity to participate in national service programs. 4 elleng
Hillary Clinton's Very Good Year 5
Hillary billionaire donor urges more scrutiny of Muslims and some suspension of civil liberties
if Baltimore wasn't the right time, when is Sanders' big national security speech?
Bernie Sanders On Climate Change: 'We Are On A Suicidal Course'
The Monmouth poll that has Clinton ahead in Iowa is horrendously flawed.
Hillary maintains 39% lead in North Carolina
Potentially what a peak might look like...
"Fall in love during the primaries, fall in line for the GE"
"I'm impressed, there haven't been many people running for president coming to our neighborhood."
Poll: Clinton holds double-digit lead over Sanders in Iowa 55% - 33% BS 31
Here It Is... Bernie Sanders On Rachel Maddow's Show Last Night
Rachel Goes On Lawrence's Show (Bernie)... NOW !!! (Coming Soon)
Hillary Clinton on Twitter: "Tell Donald Trump: Hate is not an American value.
Sanders Campaign To Reporters: 'Don't Ask About ISIS'
30 years of insane Republicans and triangulating Democrats,
Hillary Clintons Toughness
Just wanted to check in and to let you all know that Mrs. Clinton
Bernie Sanders Just Received One of His Biggest Endorsements Yet
This message was hidden by jury decision.
Times person of the year Bernie Sanders!
Hillary Clinton Is Pro Gun Control, But She's Also BIG on Arms Deals
I still wont vote for Hillary
Dec 8: @HillaryClinton is in New Hampshire this afternoon!
Any of the Democratic candidates is BETTER than ALL
jeff47
(26,549 posts)I see you also decided that any post that isn't talking favorably about polls is also anti-Clinton now.
Amusingly enough, you bolded a couple pro-Clinton posts.
And don't get me started about all those "This message was hidden by jury decision." posts. Every single one of those MUST be anti-Clinton.
I guess you have to skew the numbers somehow.
MADem
(135,425 posts)opponent.
It's what makes his campaign so off-putting. Way too many of his supporters are unhappy, angry people. They're not glad to see their candidate, they're full of hate against his opponent. That's not a good strategy. Of course, that's not ALL of them, but it's enough to make the trend noticeable.
Amusingly enough--I did NOT bold a couple of pro-Clinton posts. Sanders cheerleader Manny likes to be cute with his headlines--as do others.
I actually read the posts, and the snide/snarky comments in them, so sorry, fail.
beerandjesus
(1,301 posts)"I await rebuttals he said."
...is a pro-HILLARY thread. You include pro-Hillary threads in your count of pro-Bernie threads, and yeah, you're gonna get a big number!
MADem
(135,425 posts)If I bolded that one, I will unbold it posthaste. Happy?
madokie
(51,076 posts)after Obama trounced* Hillary. Sometimes I would have to check to make sure I wasn't being redirected to a different site. I'm serious as a heart attack when I type that too. I've a long memory and a good memory and I remember this well. I'm on record as suggesting such and asking why it was allowed too. Sorry but I'm not going to do a search because I already know the answer and its as I stated, Welcome too though.
I didn't see that so much after rMoney concerning rMoney but the hate for Obama was always here by some. I'll not name names as it is a tos violation but I'll tell you what I seen and read.
I also like the projection that is often used here as if some DU'rs were really dino's
trounced* To defeat decisively
msrizzo
(796 posts)Yeah, that should be sufficiently accurate.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Go on, give it a go--it'll keep you busy.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)You challenged his thesis, not me.
beerandjesus
(1,301 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Put the big wooden spoon away and go read it, then!
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)29 pro hillary/ anti-Bernie Posts
20 pro Bernie/ anti hillary posts
(This group assumes any post that was considered neutral, was actually pro Bernie)
So the Hillary group has approximately 1/3rd more the number of negative posts than the Bernie group does.
mythology
(9,527 posts)An unverified month old count is indistinguishable from a made up number.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)You are attempting to dupe people with made up statistics.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Andy823
(11,498 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 9, 2015, 06:58 PM - Edit history (1)
You got those "facts" from the same place you get most of your so called "facts"! I won't say where that is.
tecelote
(5,122 posts)Hekate
(91,669 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)1. If you are more of a liberal than a Democrat than pushing the party to the left might be a higher priority than winning an election. If we keep nominating people who are center right than we can't complain when we get center right policies.
2. If the issues you care about most are the surveillance state, ongoing wars, or the regulation of Wall Street, than Hillary Clinton isn't likely to be on the same side as you on those issues. She might say she is now, but her history is pretty clear.
3. Its possible to watch the Republican Nomination process and come to the conclusion that whoever they put up is going to be so damaged that there's no real downside to attacking Hillary. No amount of mud-slinging from a message board participant is going to cause her to lose if the Republican Candidate starts with a T and rhymes with "Rump." (I don't believe this myself, but I can see the logic).
Bryant
Armstead
(47,803 posts)This is a discussion board. Some of us are not happy with the direction the Clintons and the Third Way has taken the Democratic party (and the country).
We discuss that here. And there natural tendency of people to explain why they believe as they do, in hope of informing and perhaps getting people to look at things a little differently. That's the nature of most human discussions and debates regarding issues.
erronis
(15,817 posts)NRaleighLiberal
(60,071 posts)fleur-de-lisa
(14,632 posts)but there is a lot of bashing from BOTH Bernie and Hillary supporters. What's the point on a Democratic forum?
In order of preference, I want:
1) Bernie
2) Martin
3) Hillary
but I have no intention of bashing HRC publicly. It just seems to add future fodder for the pukes if she is indeed the nominee.
merrily
(45,251 posts)stating other facts about her.
And, the idea that Republicans do their opposition research on Presidential candidates by reading DU is ... no words.
I am very critical of Hillary and I say what I think about her suitability as my president. How that translates to "bashing" or "hate" is strange to me though. She is not a victim, if she can't handle constructive criticism, she can't handle the job.
But it's her supporters, not her, that seem so thin skinned. I'm not going to coddle someone who, pretty everyone agrees, is a badass woman in her own right. If her supporters can't handle that .... I don't get it. Is she your strong feminist hero or your weakling victim?
Never mind, don't answer that. But here's what I don't understand:
It seems to me that when Hillary goes left, she's applauded by her supporters. When she goes right, she's applauded by her supporters.
Makes me wonder if, hypothetically, she were to adopt all of Bernie's positions, would she lose supporters? I cannot say but I just don't see it. Her people would follow her to the ends of the earth.
At the same time....
I'm willing to bet if you polled democrats on policy or issue alone, nearly all or most progressive dems would align closer to Bernie.
Just my observation based on the things people say and do.
merrily
(45,251 posts)I believe that answers all your questions? If not, let me know.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)She is the candidate of money-based influence that has prevented the Democratic Party from being able to compete on working class economic issues. We have lost everything but the presidency because of this and nominating someone like her threatens our hold on even that.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)I understand people wanting to change the direction of the party but at some point several of us are going to wind up supporting and voting for whoever the nominee is.
As a hrc supporter I am not at all interested in the sniping at Bernie, I have informed reasons for preferring HRC over Bernie but if he is the nominee I will support and vote for him. It would be incongruent for me to spend a year bashing him and then throwing myself all out behind him if he is the nominee. I have identified several reasons why I would feel confident voting for him.
I do see more Hillary bashing here and on other social media but I believe it's because she is so far ahead of the others and then there is a small group that just hates her.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Is why she becomes more popular the more aggressively she is attacked. I really don't mind it that much. It strengthens the resolve of Clinton supporters and makes her a stronger candidate.
Broward
(1,976 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)campaign.
Broward
(1,976 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Support of Bernie, whether affirmative or defensive, seems to be a tiny fraction of his overall political posts. He has said he thinks Bernie will be better than Hillary about Wall Street, though.
Blus4u
(608 posts)I don't post often, but I do read quite a bit.
Peace
artislife
(9,497 posts)A girl who is not aware that she really is in love with that guy she thought was annoying. Meanwhile, everyone else can see it plain as day.
randys1
(16,286 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Doubtful many of you knew who Bernie was but nobody will admit that of course.
To actual liberals like myself, who are to the left of Bernie, it is distressing to see this effort to destroy one of two chances we have to fend off the terrorist American Taliban.
merrily
(45,251 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)I will do what is necessary, my part, to get HER elected if she is the nominee.
You see Bernie will also, what will be weird is that while he is doing that, if it comes to that, what will you be doing?
Like I said, Bernie and I will be doing the same thing.
merrily
(45,251 posts)But you knew that.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Big picture is the key here...
I dont really want to talk to you, I always avoid you for a reason....
so I think we should end it here
merrily
(45,251 posts)supporter simply because they don't criticize Hillary. It's convenient for you to pretend that is the issue, but it isn't.
randys1
(16,286 posts)The OP has always maintained that he is not only a Bernie supporter but is involved in Bernie's
campaign.
CLEARLY implying I am not a Bernie supporter...
jesus
merrily
(45,251 posts)that would have proven your point. What you quoted does not come close to proving your point.
BTW, haven't you always maintained you are a Bernie supporter?
Just in case people don't remember, this was my entire Reply 42, with the beginning replying to a comment from another poster about how often you complain about supporters of Bernie.
A LOT. Not about Hillary's supporters, though. Lots of defense of Hillary, too.
Support of Bernie, whether affirmative or defensive, seems to be a tiny fraction of his overall political posts. He has said he thinks Bernie will be better than Hillary about Wall Street, though.
Nowhere does it say a thing about the fact that you do not criticize Hillary.
Number23
(24,544 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)around trashing others in your banishment.
The fact that your "allegiance" to Sanders is being questioned because you don't trash Hillary 24/7/365 tells you all you need to know about your would-be comrades here. I'm sure you've seen by now that you can do much, much better in your choice of companions.
beerandjesus
(1,301 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 9, 2015, 06:42 PM - Edit history (1)
(Leaving this as a placeholder so others can see the context for what people who replied to me were saying. Bottom line is, I was an asshole and rightly got called out.)
randys1
(16,286 posts)beerandjesus
(1,301 posts)I've seen you say "I'm a Bernie supporter" an awful lot, but the rest of your words always seem to come down on the side of Hillary, or whatever point her supporter is trying to make, no matter how lame that "point" might be.
But that said, I haven't read everything you've written for sure, so I'll admit my comment may have been too harsh, and edit it accordingly. I don't mind being a little bit of an asshole, but I don't want to be a TOTAL asshole.
And... I apologize. May sound insincere, given what I just said, but I got carried away, and that's not the person I want to be. So thanks for calling me out on it.
MeNMyVolt
(1,095 posts)randys1 is no liar, and you (and others) intimating that is just crap.
beerandjesus
(1,301 posts)...and I only ever see randys1 siding with Hillary supporters. That said, I was still wrong to say what I did, so I edited it accordingly. You were right to call me out.
Spirochete
(5,264 posts)at least he's stopped claiming to be one himself. Not that anyone believed it - poster has never defended Bernie - only Hillary.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Some of the most profligate Bernie supporters are not Bernie supporters at all but sound like (in my opinion) Republican operatives. Some of the posts are so targeted to hurt Hillary that it feels like Karl Rove wrote them.
Such attack posts do nothing for Bernie because even undecideds don't think Hillary is evil.
Gore1FL
(21,252 posts)Some will follow through with their threats. Most won't.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Hillary is the nominee is a cause of that. Most whinging about Bernie's supporters seems to be predicated on that. In fact, your OP seems predicated on that. There is plenty of criticism about Bernie here, ya know. Why no hand-wringing about that?
At this stage of a primary, differences in policy and past deeds and perceived believability are important. Hillary certainly pulled no punches against Obama during their primary; why is this one supposed to be different? Because Hillary is supposed to be the nominee?
And the GOP is primed and ready for a Hillary nomination; it is ludicrous at best to say that we are giving them "ammunition" or whatever.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)And our down-ballot prospects.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)I will vote for every (D) I can, as always, but I can understand why some people think Hillary would do more harm than good.
If you work on the premise that she would be a terrible President, then you will believe that she will lose in 2020 and hurt every (D) on the ticket that year.
We need to take advantage of the higher (D) turnout in Presidential election years in 2020 to try and undo some of the damage done by the gerrymandering of 2010. If we are not able to do this because of a depressed turnout from a terrible Hillary first term, then it will be 2040 before we have the same opportunity.
I will vote for her if I must, but I really do understand why others might not.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Voting issues back in 2004, I will say this: The Democratic leadership was totally disinterested and even disdainful about that situation.
They simply did not care. And it was only after 2010 that they somewhat woke up.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)There is the very real possibility that her being elected President will lead directly to a disaster in 2020.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)I am in NC, and we got viciously redistricted. 51% voted for Democratic state house dems last election, and yet the reps have a veto proof majority. How is that even legal? Might well have take democracy out back and shoot it in the head
And as far as who is/is not electable in 2020, there is no way to judge. GWB looked really weak until 9/11. After that he was basically unbeatable no matter how hard he sucked. Everyone thought Jimmy Carter was just the ticket, such a good man, but he ended up being roadkill under the wheels of Ronald Reagan. He was PERCEIVED as being weak on the gas shortage and Iran hostages, and he lost. The point I am making is that luck and circumstance at play in that process. Being an incumbent helps. They mostly win.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)The idea that incumbency will be enough to carry 2020 seems dangerous to me. We need someone who is a stronger candidate than Hillary to have a good chance at 2020.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)if she's the nominee she's behind *Trump* in the numbers; what we can't afford is to have her win the primary
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)I have zero interest in throwing lots of mud at her right now.
That said, I'm glad so many Sanders supporters spend their time on DU and hitting online polls. Let them spew behind relatively closed doors for now.
betsuni
(26,244 posts)Makes people feel hip and cool.
Response to randys1 (Original post)
Rebkeh This message was self-deleted by its author.
TIME TO PANIC
(1,894 posts)The poor and working class are suffering. Hillary doesn't support the progressive and systemic changes that are needed. While Hillary is leaps and bounds above any republican and I intend on voting for her if she's the nominee, the thought of potentially eight more years of stagnation scares the shit out of me.
Number23
(24,544 posts)They got hundreds of recs when they shat over every single thing Obama did. Everyone that keeps thinking that these folks will stand down when the primaries are over has no clue. They have shit all over this president for YEARS and I have no doubt they will do the same thing if Hillary becomes the nominee or the president.
This place is one of only a handful of places on the PLANET where they have anything resembling a majority, where they have any power at all. And that "power" is enforced by the all important recs which is truly the only thing they care about. And when recs is the only thing that matters, even more so than honesty, then people will say/do whatever it takes to get them, no matter how counterproductive, dishonest or just flat out fucking dumb.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)If one cares about liberal and progressive issues, and one wants the Democratic Party to champion them, then soundly rejecting hawkish conservative candidates like Clinton is a priority.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)The few that remain will also be weeded out as well.
doc03
(35,599 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Sanders gets attacked for vapid shit that sounds like it ought to come from Louis Gohmert, not DU'ers.
There's kind of a difference there.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Again, people need to mature their political thinking and do something we call
BIG PICTURE
here is the BIG PICTURE
As bad as Hillary is vs Bernie on Wall Street, multiply this by ten thousand and that is how bad GOP is for the human race.
You see we call this the BIG PICTURE, DU doesnt allow me to increase the size of my font or typing so I cant scream it, I can only repeat it over and over and over and over.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Seriously, don't tell me how gosh-darned unfair it is when Clinton gets criticized on her policies, while some other knuckleheads are running around blatantly making shit up about Sanders and using white supremacist outlets to make their case.
As for big picture? You can't really complain thatp eople are criticizing a politician on an itnernet forum, and then try to chide about the "big picture." I've seen bigger pictures on the corner of envelopes.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Maybe if I'm missing your point, you should write an OP that conveys a point other than "Stop being mean to Hillary, you're just like Karl Rove!"
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)After Hillary's 2007/08 aggressively negative racist campaign, it's funny that you're asking people to temper their criticism of her as if she were a delicate daffodil. Keep in mind even after Candidate Obama had secured the nomination, Hillary refused to concede. She and her husband worked feverishly behind the scenes calling in favors, twisting arms, insisting that he could not win, that Americans would not elect a black man, and that only she could save the day. She was all kinds of fun back then.
I would suggest you gird your loins. There are plenty of really nasty anti-Bernie threads here you seem to have missed. If you want to shield your eyeballs from heated political discussion, you probably should not frequent discussion boards where, you know, people discuss politics. The dichotomy here, of course, is that Bernie supporters are keenly interested in policy which apparently seems rough to Hillary supporters who seem only interested in polling and fluffy rah-rah. I think if you keep in mind that truth is not biased, you'll be fine.
randys1
(16,286 posts)no wonder you didnt know
I dont bash and barely criticize either not because they arent both to the right of me, because they are, but because of
here is the BIG PICTURE
As bad as Hillary is vs Bernie on Wall Street, multiply this by ten thousand and that is how bad GOP is for the human race.
You see we call this the BIG PICTURE, DU doesnt allow me to increase the size of my font or typing so I cant scream it, I can only repeat it over and over and over and over.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 9, 2015, 07:56 PM - Edit history (1)
For instance, the fact that you mentioned only seeing negative posts about Hillary in your OP and failed to acknowledge the reciprocity. That blind spot is indicative of an affinity for one candidate over the other, and not what you claim.
I can only speak for myself, but I am interested in policy and the truth. Two things Hillary fans can't be bothered with.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Some here think risking the WH to them is OK if Hillary is the nominee
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)If you are truly concerned about keeping the White House, you probably should stop buying into the meme that only she can win. Polling shows Bernie to be the strongest GE candidate, beating all of the Repubs. Hillary cannot. And no doubt much to your dismay, 14% of Democrats won't vote for Hillary and Democrats only constitute 30% of the electorate, independents 43%, Republicans 26%. Bernie owns the independent vote.
randys1
(16,286 posts)comment, that she cant win, is on rightwing sites and sources.
They say that ALL day long.
They said it ALL day long on both Obama elections
Saying it over and over and over as we see here at DU is one way to convince people not to vote for her too.
NO informed pundit will say that, no informed political observer will say that, funny how so many here say it.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Underwater negatives with very few undecideds
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Thanks.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Like a dog frothing on the end of a chain, I want to kick GOP ass so bad. Cannot wait for the General. I want to roll so fast and hard that they are stinking road kill on the shoulder of history. I will do this behind ANY dem candidate. Because Hobby Lobby (don't mess with my BC) and Ferguson and Citizens United.
Their candidates are sooooo bad. We can BURN THEM DOWN if we focus. Total humiliation.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)It gets heated these days. 2008 was also bad, but I don't remember it being this bad. I usually check the board once a day, look at LBN and Greatest, but I even stopped doing that for a long time. Too much bile and also boring.
If you think about it, it is ridiculous that one parties represent such a huge spectrums of views. In a parliamentary system, there are many parties representing niche groups, but they are all forced to work with other parties if they want to get anything done. And if one pisses you off or renege on a deal, you can work with someone else.
For instance, I am passionate and far-left on social justice issues and a center-left pragmatists on economic stuff. In the parliamentary system, I can be a member of the Social Justice Party. But there are not enough of us to win an election, so we might work with the Democratic Socialists to gain a majority. If they are difficult or unpleasant, no reason we would not go with the straight-up Democrats or even Business Progressives instead. They are both ok with my social justice platform, and I am ok with a variety of different economic solutions. We all get what we really want.
Sanders supporters seem to think (in general) that the ONLY progressive issue is income inequality. And I think that is a huge deal too. But my true passion is for social justice and I am waaaay more liberal than most of them on that score. I find their lack of understanding annoying. Just like they find my lack of absolute intensity on economic issues annoying. But we are forced to be together, a shotgun wedding. I dunno, if we were able to choose, we might choose each other. But there is no choice. The Republicans are so gawdawful, I can't even contemplate voting for one beyond the local level. And they are even more fractured. We are ALL overly constrained by the system.
This is a long and complicated way to say I think the two party system sucks, is outdated, and until it changes, we will have very fractious primaries. Because voters are pissed and sick of it. Sanders peeps probably agree with me 100% on that! We just disagree on the best way to go about fixing in, or, in my case, if it is even fixable (I think only modest progress is possible).
Did you watch The Wire? The 4th or 5th season is all about a gifted and passionate young politician out to clean up the mess and cronyism of the city government. And what happens next is about right. He gets change, but incremental and with big compromises and unintended results, not all good. That's politics and that's life.
In the end, we will make the shotgun marriage work. Because Hillary Clinton can give Sanders peeps more of what they want than GOP, and vice versa. We just have to beat each other up for a bit longer first
randys1
(16,286 posts)I liked this
Only one conclusion can be drawn from those who believe income inequality is equal to or more important than social issues, most saying that are not subject to the everyday social complications one has if Black or Gay or even a Woman.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Income inequality is at the root off many social justice issues. But so is racism. Baked into the very DNA of this country. And homophobia. And sexism. OMG, so much sexism, I can't even.... It's complicated.
We ALL need to listen better. Young people are getting SCREWED. By the economy, but the student loan set up. They are the ones who fight the wars. They should speak up and their voices should be more respected. But on the other hand, I have been here working ALL ALONG. So don't tell me to shut up and sit down either. I know shit. I get stuff done.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)On election results.
So, folks, carry on. Good and bad. Keep on posting!
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)General "buzz" can be a momentum changer, but that is hard to engineer.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)I can honestly say that I see no reason to assume that she would be a better choice than any of the republican candidates.
I don't believe a word that she says. 'Hillary says' is meaningless.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Hepburn
(21,054 posts)IMO, you have it backward: We are harmed if she wins.
JMHO