Middle class is when you have to go to work

[hill2016]

Upper class is when you can live off your investments and you don't have to work (you can choose to).

In some cities, $250k is hardly upper class. After taxes, you're left with about $150k.

Assuming mortgage or rental at $4 - 5k a month, that's easily another $50k gone.

With a couple of kids in private school ($20k / year), nanny, housekeeper, groceries, vacations, car, clothes, dining, etc. you're barely breaking even.

[Wilms]

1. "In some cities, $250k is hardly upper class." Nice try.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html

Plug $250K into the calculator.

So the middle class has nannies and housekeepers?

[hill2016]

6. check out this article

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/realestate/what-is-middle-class-in-manhattan.html

But if you are defining middle class by lifestyle, to accommodate the cost of living in Manhattan, that salary would have to fall between $80,000 and $235,000. This means someone making $70,000 a year in other parts of the country would need to make $166,000 in Manhattan to enjoy the same purchasing power.

[Wilms]

7. Sounds like they don't belong in Manhattan?

There are areas nearby nowhere near as costly.



The Times calculator I posted says $250,000 puts one in the upper 3% or 4%.

[hill2016]

10. then

who gets to stay in Manhattan?

Scarsdale and Brooklyn are almost as expensive.

[Wilms]

13. People who are in the upper 2%, of course.

And people who are making $250K and are willing to stop whining about it.

And there are plenty of places more affordable in the metro area.

[JaneyVee]

29. I live in Manhattan and my salary puts me in the middle class here.

[Wilms]

31. I'm appreciating the demographics of HRC supporters. n/t

[neverforget]

2. Lol. Middle class with a nanny, housekeeper and private schools.

You have a strange definition of who is in the middle class

[angrychair]

3. Wow

I think your thing is broken.
"Private school"? Or "nanny"? I assume you are joking. I don't give two shits if some couple doesn't have a nanny or cannot send their kids to Private school.

[6chars]

5. Beat me to it.

[2naSalit]

33. me too.

[hill2016]

9. assuming both parents are working

they would need a live-in nanny.

If this couple was upper-class, they wouldn't need to work, would they?

[Warren Stupidity]

12. You do know that millions of actual middle class

families manage to have two working parents and zero nannies, right? They have no choice. What bubble of privilege are you posting from?

[neverforget]

14. I was going to post something similar but you said it far better than me.

My wife and I managed to do it. So have my parents, brothers, sister, friends, my in-laws, my cousins, co-workers........I guess we did it wrong.

[hill2016]

17. ok

maybe not a live-in nanny but a part-time babysitter.

They probably can't afford a live-in nanny anyway on $250k.

[Romulox]

19. No live in nanny? Barbaric! nt

[hill2016]

24. Life's full of tough choices, innit?

if you want to send your kids to private school you might not be able to afford a live-in nanny.

[Romulox]

25. Middle class people can't afford to do either of those things. You knew that, of course. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

117. ok, now I'm at least 60% sure you're putting us on.

[neverforget]

35. You sure are worried about those $250,000 earners of the upper few percent

of the "middle class".

[angrychair]

34. o know where the sarcasm button Is?

I still think this is either trollng or performance art.

"assuming both parents are working
they would need a live-in nanny."

Said millions of two income families never. Its called a daycare center or a friend's teen-aged child. Or a latchkey kid, worked for me at 11 years old.
Second, there are a lot of millionaires that both work.
According to a report issued by the SSA about a month ago, 51% of income earners earn less than $30,000 a year. 71% of income earners earn less $50,000 a year.
.08% (yes, point zero eight percent) of income earners earn (take) 53% of all wages earned in America.

A household income of $250,000 a year puts you in the top 3% of income earners in America.

[Armstead]

45. I thjink you may be right. This could be one long performance piece

[nxylas]

73. Kind of like Billionaires for Bush

Who knows, maybe the same people are involved?

[neverforget]

65. I agree if not then

[Capt. Obvious]

83. "either trollng or performance art."

I know where my bet is placed.

[Hepburn]

100. Have you ever heard of day care?

That is what is used by most middle income families for child care when both parents work.

[leftofcool]

119. Isn't that just about as expensive as a nanny?

I have no idea what day care runs these days but I have a feeling a good one is pretty high.

[Ed Suspicious]

110. Are you kidding me? A live in nanny for a middle class household? You must be out of your mind.

If that's how the middle class is living these days, I'm not even close.

[6chars]

4. Sarcasm tag missing?

Million dollar plus home, private schools, nanny, housekeeper, dining (not at Olive Garden, I'm guessing), vacations (cruises? Europe in the summer, Mexico in the winter, skiing in the spring). It is starting to sound a little like upper class to me. True, at this level you still have to pay for hotels instead of owning a home in each vacation spot.

Middle class: 400 sq ft of home per person or so, PUBLIC schools, daycare or after school program, keep your own house, vacations and fancy dining only if you are well past breaking even.

I guess what you see depends on where you sit. Or stand.

[hill2016]

8. in

Manhattan a million dollar plus home buys you less than 1000 sq ft.

Do the maths please.

Like I said, $150k take-home. Rental of about $50k a year. That's left with $100k.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/realestate/what-is-middle-class-in-manhattan.html

But if you are defining middle class by lifestyle, to accommodate the cost of living in Manhattan, that salary would have to fall between $80,000 and $235,000. This means someone making $70,000 a year in other parts of the country would need to make $166,000 in Manhattan to enjoy the same purchasing power.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/nyregion/scraping-the-40000-ceiling-at-new-york-city-private-schools.html?_r=1&ref=education

Indeed, this year’s tuition at Columbia Grammar and Preparatory ($38,340 for 12th grade) and Horace Mann ($37,275 for the upper school) is higher than Harvard’s ($36,305). Those 41 schools (out of 61 New York City private schools in the national association) provided enough data to enable a 10-year analysis. (Over all, inflation caused prices in general to rise 27 percent over the past decade.)

[sleepyvoter]

16. Ah, I see the optics problem here.

The problem is, that you *PROBABLY* don't live outside Manhattan, and have no idea what $250,000 means here, or there.

In fact, $250,000 is a 1% type of job. You could easily buy a McMansion and live on it in my city with a mortgage and still buy two cars and a vacation to Europe once a year.

I have a job that doesn't pay me what it should be paying, but I'm grateful that I have a job that I'm proud of on principles. I make my clients happy, and when they're happy they're paying my monthly bills.

[melman]

64. "maths"

Interesting.

[Wilms]

11. Should have been posted elsewhere--

[Autumn]

15. Nanny, housekeeper, private schools, and vacations and the poor dears are barley breaking even???

My heart breaks for them. I hope they didn't have to cut back from fine dining to Taco Bell, That would be a horror to awful to contemplate.

[Romulox]

18. Awesome parody post. Recommended! nt

[bobbobbins01]

20. Damn, I must be low class.

After summering on the Riviera I hardly had enough gas money left to sail my 3rd yacht back to the Hamptons. These are tough times.

[hill2016]

32. hm...

what do you think of the new boat fee in the Hamptons?

[bobbobbins01]

38. Its a regressive tax aimed at milking us low income folks.

First they came for the yachts and I only had 3, so I said nothing.

[renate]

72. :D

Beautiful!

[Hiraeth]

21. this right here:

With a couple of kids in private school ($20k / year), nanny, housekeeper, groceries, vacations, car, clothes, dining, etc. you're barely breaking even.

cry me a river.

maybe that could be called Upper Middle Class but, not Middle Class and definitely NOT Lower Middle Class.

[taught_me_patience]

22. I agree

250k whittles away real fast in an expensive city.

[gollygee]

23. I have so far only seen you in two threads

In one, you talk about how sometimes it might be in a child's best interest to have visitation with a rapist father.

And now you're saying people are middle class unless they can easily afford sending their kids to pricy private schools, having a housekeeper and live-in nanny, expensive dining out, and multiple vacations a year.

[Romulox]

26. She also whines about paying taxes for others' college. Obvious parody account. nt

[Crystalite]

27. WRONG. Middle class, the middle quintile, is $50K-$60K. $250,000 is upper 5%. Upper Class.

[font size=15]Sick of this bullshit.[/font size]

[daleanime]

30. Yes.

[daleanime]

28. No....

[Bread and Circus]

36. Did you just say having a private school for kids, nanny, housekeeper...then said "you're barely...

breaking even"?

And a mortage $4 to $5 K a month?

Don't you see how out of touch what you are saying really is?

You do know a lot of people can't even afford a $400 mortgage, right?

[JonLeibowitz]

37. Your math is laughably flawed; correct calculations show $250k is upper class for sure.

Assume $250k gross pay. Retirement: 401k/IRA contributions of 15% (pre-tax) is $37.5k. Your pre-tax income is now $212.5k.

Assume that you have a $900k house which gets you to a $4560/mo (close to your midway point). mortgage @ 30 yrs, 4.5% FRM. Your mortgage tax deduction is then $54720 on a mortgage cost of $54720 (since your home is under the $1MM limit). If you are MFJ with 2 kids (deductions) then you are in the 25% tax bracket.

Your deduction is $70270. Taxable income is $141780. Total Federal tax liability is $27k.

Now let's take state taxes. Suppose 6% effective tax (I think this is reasonable, remember that some states charge no tax; also marginal rates help you and there are mortgage & child deductions most places anyway): $12750.

Your final take home pay is then: $172717. Now pay your mortgage: you have $117k disposable income. 2x kids private school = $40,000. Average nanny cost: $705/wk. = $36660/yr. It isn't clear that you would need a nanny for more than 5-7 years though. Also most of a child's time in school has no overlap with nanny care. I am giving you a lot of leeway here. You now have $41337 / yr. left to spend on groceries, vacations, car, dining. I ignored housekeeper since nobody considers that a feature that middle class families spend on. So you have ~$3500/mo. for cars, vacations, car, dining.

My point? 66% of Americans' gross pay is less than $41k, the leftover money for groceries, vacations, car, dining.

No reasonable calculation leads to considering $250k a middle class family.

[hill2016]

41. yo

you can only deduct the mortgage INTEREST not the full mortgage payment a year.

2 kids = EXEMPTIONS not deductions.

In any case if you have $70k of deductions you would start thinking about the AMT.

In NY, state + city = 10%.

Let's try again?

[JonLeibowitz]

47. Good points.

Most states, 49/50 are not NY. You also assume you are working in NYC, one of the most expensive cities in the US. I have given you enormous leeway with some calculations, let's not take worst case scenario in every area.

I did the tax exemption math properly for kids, just used wrong language. You are free to check it yourself.

As for interest: true, I screwed up the math on that. Approximately 45% of the mortgage amortized over the lifetime of the mortgage will be interest (though different at different parts of the mortgage, but we'll ignore that). That means your deduction is only $24624, with a federal tax liability of $35177. So your disposable income is now $33193. That is still a ton of money.

Do you really actually think $250k is middle class?

edit: I have been showing that it is still possible to live what most would consider an upper class life on $250k. Middle class doesn't include private school and a $900k house. Very few people would call that middle class.

[Luminous Animal]

39. The median household income in Manhattan is $88,382. In San Francisco it hover around $75,000.

Don't feed me this bullshit. People who make 3 times that much are NOT middle class. They are rich whether they are working for it or not.

[Bread and Circus]

40. I am Kicking and Recommending this post because I think it's a fine example of what...

we are up against.

I think everyone needs to read the OP and contemplate the mentality of the faux liberal elite that runs this party and how preposterous it really is.

[darkangel218]

79. +1

[tazkcmo]

90. For me it was this part...

"With a couple of kids in private school ($20k / year), nanny, housekeeper, groceries, vacations, car, clothes, dining, etc. you're barely breaking even."

[Hepburn]

101. Talk about not dealing with reality.

The OP is sad, just plain sad: $250K/year is middle income... Right...sure...I gotta bridge!

[lumberjack_jeff]

128. +1000 n/t

[brooklynite]

42. Please tell my wife she's living off her investments...

I'm lucky if she's home before 10 PM

[Armstead]

44. There asre a lot of people who arre lucky to get hoime by 10 am....

after working their second job to make ends meet.

[brooklynite]

46. Fair enough..but that's not what the OP is grumbling about...

[Armstead]

48. I'm frankly not sure what the OP is grumbling about

I think I could find a way to scrape by on $250,000 a year if I tried really hard.

[brooklynite]

49. One way would be to not have kids...

I understand they cost about $250 K each.

[Armstead]

54. Or we could stop condoning and supporting bad values and policires

We have created an environment where jobs to support a basically secure and comfortable (buty not lavish) life are disappearing, and living costs are being driven upward by the people who are eliminating or down scaling those jobs while they make out better and better.

The problem is not the 99 percent versus the 1 percent. It's more like the 25 percent versus the 75 percent. We're gentrifying more and more places, while taking away the ability of average people to afford to live there.

But maybe, as the elite managerial class sees their own jobs being eliminated or down scaled and they fall into the 75 percent, we might someday return to an economy of balance and a return of a sense of the common good.

[neverforget]

55. Maybe....but it's not per year

[brooklynite]

60. But thank of how you could invest that money...

...oops, the OP thinks investments are a bad thing, apparently.

[Ed Suspicious]

112. Aristocrats are so sensitive.

[ibegurpard]

66. Not in Brooklyn

Which hasn't been working class for a generation now.

[brooklynite]

82. Sunset Park

Last edited Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:06 PM - Edit history (1)

East New York



Brighton Beach



Red Hook



I don't mind stereotypes; I mind lazy ones...

[ibegurpard]

93. Yeah all the articles written about Brooklyn gentrification

Are just lazy stereotypes right? Was Spike Lee making lazy stereotypes in his anti-gentrification rant from almost 4 YEARS AGO?

[brooklynite]

94. Brooklyn’s Median Household Income Is Less Than $45,000

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/01/new_york_city_census_data_manhattan_and_brooklyn_are_much_poorer_than_you.html

Who knew the 1% had such a low barrier to entry?

[sleepyvoter]

98. Boro Park.

EOM

[hill2016]

62. then you're middle class

upper class people don't have to work if they don't want to.

[Armstead]

43. Why do you keep peddling this connservative horseshit?

$4,000 - $5000 month in rent?Nanny, private school?

Yeah I guess if you pick the highest rent districts in the most expensive cities you got a point.

Jeezum H. Krikerds. Where I live (which is somewhat off the beaten path but not Siberia) there are many working people struggling to pay $900 a month rent.

Oh my God. Might have to cancel the European vacation next year.

[WillyT]

50. LOL !!! - Our Base, Ladies And Gentlmen...

[RandySF]

51. $250k for a family

Is not enough for a nanny, housekeeper and everything else. I note the sarcasm.

[w0nderer]

52. let me cry for you

9.50$/H
FOR 10 hours

a couple of hours more at 8-9 dollars per hour


waaaaaah waaaaaah i feel so sorry i'm really omigod sad for you



this is called working poor!

[lunasun]

53. wtf is this shit??

kids in private school ($20k / year), nanny, housekeeper, groceries, vacations, car, clothes, dining, etc. you're barely breaking even

[morningfog]

104. This OP is simply doing their job. Hill's shills.

[lunasun]

120. I am undecided myself, but this poster maybe a Romney crossover to Hill with that myopic look

So oblivious to what life is like on an average middle class salary
Isolated or trolling , either way barf inducing

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. Exactly. "Think of the children!... And their au pairs!" n/t

[restorefreedom]

56. wait, is this an audition piece for the onion?

cuz if not....

250k with nannies and private school is middle???

[ibegurpard]

57. Seriously are you trolling?

Nannies, private schools, and housekeepers???

[darkangel218]

81. And 5K dollars a month mortgage!

[jeff47]

58. So...in your world the working class doesn't exist?

'Cause they do have to go to work.

[Truprogressive85]

59. Seriously

Did you forget the driver , chef , yoga instructor ,and botox sessions as well

Not sure if this is an attempt at trolling but "barley breaking even " is not a term I would ever use when it comes to someone making 250k

[Hepburn]

103. Housekeeper, gardener, and private plane with pilot!

Yipppppppppeeeeeeeeee...for the middle class!

[Truprogressive85]

115. lol

[slipslidingaway]

61. Kick for the necessities of life while working for a "middle class" wage of 250K. nt

[jfern]

63. If you don't need to go to into work, you can move somewhere cheaper

And if you afford blow $20k a year on each of multiple kids for private school, and have a nanny and housekeeper, you're certainly not middle class.

[JI7]

67. FUCK THAT , 150K is A LOT OF MONEY

it's easy to live a good life on that amount. the problem is people who make that amount see themselves as being on the same level as multimillionaires and want all the extra crap they pay for .

one can easy get a nice house, health care, public or private school, multiple vehicles and vacations on that money.

[pinebox]

68. What a different world you live in!

Cry me a river, I can't afford private school for my kids anymore on my $250k salary!
People are going hungry who WORK 40/hrs a week in this country and you're talking about $250,000 a year like it's the damn poor house?
Really? REALLY?!

I nominate this for worst thread ever on DU.

[Kentonio]

74. I disagree

It's actually very amusing

[Recursion]

69. $250K is five times the median household income in NYC

This is an argument that really needs to just die. "Sure, it's objectively a lot of money, but there's so little left of it after I spend most of it!"

[Betty Karlson]

70. Desperate elitist spin.

And you are in unsavory company: FOX news business anchor Tracy Burns made the same argument to defend Mitt Romney's platform in 2012.

[Cassiopeia]

71. I want to be poor where you live!

Nanny

[reformist2]

75. You mean this ISN'T a parody? Wow.

I didn't know the middle class sent their kids to private schools, had nannies, housekeepers, and paid $60,000 a year in housing costs...

[merrily]

76. Comedy gold!

[Bonobo]

77. Kicking for the sheer mind numbing tone-deafness of "Hil" and her supporters.

It's a fucking hoot but thanks for making it real clear the reason that we see such a vicious response to calls for economic justice.

Even so, using black people as a cover to attack economic justice (as has been done over and over) for avaricious motives is sickening to say the least.

[darkangel218]

78. "Mortgage 4K - 5K a month"???

Thats not middle class, buddy. Thats upper class.

[treestar]

80. having a nanny and private schools

is not middle class IMO.

[Half-Century Man]

84. Where did you find that psychotic definition of "middle class"?

Upper class is when you can live off your investments and you don't have to work (you can choose to)

Scrawled above the urinal at the country club?







A more accurate way to define "middle class" is to use those persons falling within the middle percentile bracket of income. Those at 40%-60%.

[Hepburn]

106. Latte spew!

Under the urinal at the country club! Sweeeeeeeeeet!

[Crystalite]

113. That youtube. Whoa.

Needs to be it's own OP in GD...

Or in GDP as long as it makes a reference to the Democratic Primary candidates.

This is what Sanders is talking about.

[Mnpaul]

121. That video has been in several threads

I'm amazed that anyone here hasn't already viewed it.

[beam me up scottie]

85. Lol!

Bookmarking to read all of the awesome replies later.

[Capt. Obvious]

88. Ah ha!

You admit to bookmarking!

[beam me up scottie]

91. LMAO!

Busted!

[tazkcmo]

86. lol

Middle class is having to buy Vitton instead of Guccii. I guess.

[darkangel218]

87. Kick for the lulz and fail!

[Vinca]

89. Your post is sarcasm, right???

Housekeeper? To people in the middle class that's called "Swiffer."

[hill2016]

97. sorry I meant

housekeeper who comes by once a week or once a fortnight, not a live-in housekeeper.

It's actually quite common. In my building forum I see requests for a recommendation once in a while. And my building is mainly people in their 20s and 30s, young professionals not trust fund babies.

I am looking for a really good cleaning lady. I was wondering if anyone in the building has a person they use and would highly recommend?

[morningfog]

107. Yeah right.

No one here is buying your bullshit. Peddle this elitist tripe somewhere else.

[Hepburn]

109. LMAO!

You don't know it takes state action to have a First Amendment issue, but you are looking for a really good cleaning lady!?!?!?!?! I say spend your time learning about the U.S. Constitution and then worry about cleaning out your house!

OMG........the irony!

[panader0]

125. "a fortnight"?

Do you hold your pinkie in the air when you sip you tea?

[Jake Stern]

92. On today's episode of Manhattan Middle Class Problems . . . .

"Children, we simply MUST tighten our belts! I know it is almost too much to bear being seen taking your lunch to school but, sadly, it must be done. We might even have to let the nanny go! Don't cry Skylar!"

[PowerToThePeople]

95. Looks like another one made it past mirt

hope you are having fun.

[hill2016]

96. my views

align with mainstream Democrats, including President Obama's

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-you-middle-class/

President Obama has resolutely insisted ever since he was on the campaign trail that families with income below $250,000 were middle class in his book. And when you're President and say that often enough, it becomes the framing mechanism for the entire debate. Until you start to lose your mojo on Capitol Hill that is. Even before the mid-term elections, a few Democrats started floating $500,000 as a better cut-off for the middle class that would be spared a tax hike. Then just this week, a cadre of Democrats no doubt still stinging from their shellacking in the mid-terms have decided that the Bush tax cuts should be extended for families with income below $1 million. At that level, the Dems figure they will have an easier time getting a deal with the newly empowered Republicans.

[sleepyvoter]

99. You live in New York, right?

The rest of us don't.

[morningfog]

108. No, yours are in line with the powers that be.

Not with the mainstream. You are doing their bidding. And you do it poorly. Go join an elitist support group. You ain't mainstream anything.

[Hepburn]

111. From your link

Here is what is considered middle class:

According to the Census Bureau, median household income in 2009 was $49,084. Before any coastal dwellers start yelping, let's take a look at regional differences:

Median Household Income

West: $53,833
Northeast: $53,073
Midwest: $48,877
South: $45,615

Not anywhere near to $250K. Unbelievable!

[morningfog]

105. Totally agree.this is either a troll or a shill.

No difference really.

[morningfog]

102. Incredibly out of touch and tone deaf OP.

You either are full of shit and don't believe what you typed and are simply following the shitty script you've been dealt.

OR

You are really that out of touch with the middle and true working class.

Either way, get a grip on reality.

[slipslidingaway]

114. Barely breaking even at 250K per annum, still pondering that thought, even in NYC ...

guess when you factor in a nanny instead of daycare and "need" a housekeeper, vacations etc.

These are not necessities ... money can buy conveniences that are not necessarily needed.

There is such a disparity between what is 'needed' and what is convenient.

[Warren DeMontague]

118. THE ROMNEYS HAVE A CAR ELEVATOR BUT ALL I COULD AFFORD WAS THE CAR ESCALATOR!

[slipslidingaway]

123. LOL and you can see why the elevator is so important! n/t

[hill2016]

131. you don't understand the cost of living

in New York

[slipslidingaway]

132. Well I have a clue, I lived there for over a year while my husband underwent two ...

allogeneic bone marrow transplants at Sloan Kettering. I also worked in the city years ago, but commuted home to NJ.

[Warren DeMontague]

116. I love it when Manhattanites try to prove they don't live in a bubble.

[Bonobo]

124. What about Brooklyites?

Same thing these days.

[hill2016]

133. Manhattan is still

more expensive than Brookyln generally

[Douglas Carpenter]

122. well of course and with the stress of servants demanding such high salaries these days 250K per year

is chicken feed - and those private schools and nannies - don't even get me started.

[lumberjack_jeff]

126. People on Wall Street work long hours. Social Security Retirees don't. Bad definition, bad.

But this is the reason Hillary's winning the nomination... and to hell with the general election.

[hill2016]

129. ok

I've checked around

Private school is closer to $30k+ a year.
Part-time nanny is about $30k a year as well.

[hill2016]

130. bump

[stone space]

134. If I win a quater million dollar lottery, I'm retiring.

I'm turning 59 next month, and in 6 years I'll be 65.

A quarter million dollars is more than my wife and I will make together for the rest of our lives.