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Vattel

(9,289 posts)
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 08:50 AM Oct 2015

Sanders needs to do better on the "Are you a capitalist?" question.

He had a great debate, but I think when asked about whether he is a capitalist or a socialist or something in between, he needs to define more precisely where he falls in the spectrum of views that one might call capitalist or socialist. Merely talking about not believing that the few should gobble up a huge chunk of the nations wealth, or pointing to countries like Denmark as examples, is not good enough. He should come right out and identify the extent to which the means of production should be owned by the state, the extent to which businesses should be worker-owned, etc. I think if he was more precise, people would be less inclined to fear the sort of socialism he wants, or at least it could be debated.

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Sanders needs to do better on the "Are you a capitalist?" question. (Original Post) Vattel Oct 2015 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author darkangel218 Oct 2015 #1
But that is the essence of capitalism - gobble up a huge chunk of the nations wealth Xipe Totec Oct 2015 #2
No, that is a consequence of unfettered capitalism. Vattel Oct 2015 #5
I didn't hear anybody qualify what kind of watered down capitalists they were. nt Xipe Totec Oct 2015 #17
No, that is Neo-Liberalism. Unregulated capitalism. KittyWampus Oct 2015 #12
Who knew that the Robber Barons of the XIXth century were so far ahead of their time Xipe Totec Oct 2015 #16
Economic fairness is a winning message FrodosPet Oct 2015 #3
nationalizing health care, education, and prisons would have strong support. stillwaiting Oct 2015 #4
Those are services, not "the means of production" FrodosPet Oct 2015 #7
Energy production could be a popular subject cprise Oct 2015 #21
Also, there are the states to consider: cprise Oct 2015 #22
Most Americans are not capitalists whether or not they want to be. iemitsu Oct 2015 #6
Deciding where and how much capital you invest IS work FrodosPet Oct 2015 #11
Many if not most Americans have some money invested in an IRA, pension or some such. KittyWampus Oct 2015 #13
Yes, that is our retirement money. iemitsu Oct 2015 #23
Agreed. Many of the GOP persuasion think that he intends to take their businesses away. FSogol Oct 2015 #8
Yeah that wasn't good. JaneyVee Oct 2015 #9
He should point out Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs are socialistic. Major Hogwash Oct 2015 #10
I think you nailed it. But also the word "Neo Liberal might help. KittyWampus Oct 2015 #14
As an actual (former) capitalist, I posted this: Ron Green Oct 2015 #15
I agree he could do a little better job on that question Cheese Sandwich Oct 2015 #18
Supply side economics isn't capitalism AgingAmerican Oct 2015 #19
Just plain "no" would have sufficed. Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2015 #20
I don't think it would. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #26
I agree. kentuck Oct 2015 #24
Subsidiarity: economic activity should take place on the most local Ron Green Oct 2015 #25
small businesses vs. corporations jonjen Oct 2015 #27
Agreed. He should say he's a capitalist like FDR was. . . DinahMoeHum Oct 2015 #28

Response to Vattel (Original post)

Xipe Totec

(43,890 posts)
2. But that is the essence of capitalism - gobble up a huge chunk of the nations wealth
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 08:54 AM
Oct 2015

The end game for pure unfettered capitalism is one person holding all the wealth and the rest of the world broke.

That is why we have regulations to, in the words of HRC, "save capitalism from itself".

What she means is we have to inject a little socialism into the mix.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
5. No, that is a consequence of unfettered capitalism.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 08:59 AM
Oct 2015

No serious person believes in unfettered, free market capitalism--certainly no one who debated last night believes in that. But Sanders is the only one who was on that stage who says that he is not a capitalist and that he is a socialist. I think voters want to know exactly how that distinguishes him from the other candidates.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
3. Economic fairness is a winning message
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 08:57 AM
Oct 2015

Nationalizing major parts of the economy is not. He would jump from Cool Uncle Bernie to Lenin! Castro! Chavez! by doing that.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
4. nationalizing health care, education, and prisons would have strong support.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 08:59 AM
Oct 2015

Or, more precisely, ensuring these industries are government run and not privatized.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
7. Those are services, not "the means of production"
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:05 AM
Oct 2015

If he talks about nationalizing "product producing" companies, it would go south really quick.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
21. Energy production could be a popular subject
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 12:28 PM
Oct 2015

Maybe the rail system (I know its more of a service, but thought it should be mentioned).

The Fed (production of money).

But I don't think he is going to push a lot of nationalization (of production) if any. Its more about the possibility that it could be used under extenuating circumstances.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
22. Also, there are the states to consider:
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 12:36 PM
Oct 2015

It could be argued that most public enterprises should be owned at the state level. In that case, an DS president would be in position to facilitate the possibility of state ownership.

There are privatized water and land resources that came from municipalities which should be returned to the public.

iemitsu

(3,888 posts)
6. Most Americans are not capitalists whether or not they want to be.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:00 AM
Oct 2015

Capitalists live off other's work. They do not have to work to support themselves because their capital does that work for them.
Most of us are workers, who get exploited by the capitalist class.
Why should any worker support that?

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
11. Deciding where and how much capital you invest IS work
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:12 AM
Oct 2015

Manual is not the only kind of labor. Intellectual labor is still labor. Supervision is still labor. Finding employees, hiring them, training them, paying them, is labor.

And unless you are a sole proprietor, you benefit from the labor of your coworkers, and they benefit from yours.

iemitsu

(3,888 posts)
23. Yes, that is our retirement money.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:47 PM
Oct 2015

We don't live off of it, the way capitalists live off their investments. At least not until we are retired. Then much of what we might have earned can be lost through the fluctuations of the market place.
Our retirements should not be invested in the stock market anyway because most of us can't afford to lose it. We should get healthy pensions that are guaranteed.

FSogol

(45,488 posts)
8. Agreed. Many of the GOP persuasion think that he intends to take their businesses away.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:07 AM
Oct 2015

They don't have a clue about socialism in its many forms.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
10. He should point out Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs are socialistic.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:11 AM
Oct 2015

They didn't just fall out of the air sometime over the last 75 years!!!!!!!!!

This message brought to you by the Democratic Party!

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
14. I think you nailed it. But also the word "Neo Liberal might help.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 09:23 AM
Oct 2015

Americans are capable of absorbing one more word or concept, I think maybe.

Or maybe not.

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
18. I agree he could do a little better job on that question
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 12:07 PM
Oct 2015

He's probably falling back on the same answers he has always given, but now it's getting more scrutiny, so he'll have to adjust.

Because he seems a little evasive, like he's trying to gloss over what's the differences a bit too much.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
26. I don't think it would.
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 10:15 AM
Oct 2015

Not to win more voters over. I think he does need to keep pushing out his message of WHY capitalism is failing everyday Americans, rather than simply just accepting a nuanceless label that can be used against him.

kentuck

(111,103 posts)
24. I agree.
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 09:08 AM
Oct 2015

He is not doing enough to educate the people on this subject. It is a subject matter that is deeply embedded in their brains.

Ron Green

(9,822 posts)
25. Subsidiarity: economic activity should take place on the most local
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 10:01 AM
Oct 2015

level possible, consistent with support for human needs.

This is a cornerstone of transformational economics, and something I think Bernie understands and could explain.

jonjen

(4 posts)
27. small businesses vs. corporations
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 10:20 AM
Oct 2015

He should be careful not to tar all entrepreneurial activity with the same brush. There's a huge difference between the mom and pop store and the startups created by people with great ideas, and a Wall Street investment bank. Hillary followed up his response with a reminder of her support for small businesses. Like it our not, we are a capitalist society - it doesn't have to be a dirty word.

DinahMoeHum

(21,794 posts)
28. Agreed. He should say he's a capitalist like FDR was. . .
Sat Oct 17, 2015, 10:47 AM
Oct 2015

. . .and will work to save capitalism from it's worst excesses.

And when "socialism" gets mentioned, he should also say he's one like FDR was.

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