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2016 Postmortem

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Cosmocat

(14,564 posts) Wed Nov 19, 2014, 06:35 PM Nov 2014

Lets be clear about one thing with Hillary

I am somewhat ambivalent about her.

I get where people are coming from with her from a policy standpoint. I do think she is political enough to take some of the positions she takes for political reasons, and very likely would not act as President relative to these types of positions. But, I get it.

I would back her and think she would do a good job, but am absolutely open to someone else - I swung to BHO last time.

Problem is, there is not much else there. End of the day, she is probably the best bet to have a democrat in the White House.

The point to be addressed is this thing where her running is some kind of statement by the "establishment" and "DLCers" and what not.

Well, no it isn't. It is a person with Presidential aspirations.

That she might be DLC or whatever, she is the same as anyone else who would run and is DLC. And, the same as any more preferable "liberal."

The problem here is that end of the day, in this country, elections are popularity contests that tend to won or lost on some kind of simple minded messaging.

And, like it or not, the moderate tone wins out in Presidentials.

More to the point - if you are displeased with her, back another candidate IN THE PRIMARY and have at it.

End of the day, people vote, and if you don't like the outcome THEY are who you have the beef with.

This past election wasn't the republican's fault who ran, they are what they are, clear and plain.

The problem was the people of this country.

InfoView thread info, including edit history TrashPut this thread in your Trash Can (My DU » Trash Can) BookmarkAdd this thread to your Bookmarks (My DU » Bookmarks) 22 replies, 2504 views
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Lets be clear about one thing with Hillary (Original Post) Cosmocat Nov 2014 OP
I more or less agree... Wounded Bear Nov 2014 #1
I wonder about Martin O'Malley of MD. They are already going after him in polling TheNutcracker Nov 2014 #2
It is certainly too early for a coronation... Wounded Bear Nov 2014 #4
Who is this "They"? brooklynite Nov 2014 #17
PS. I'm real tired too of the repub-lite we've been getting from 'the party'. TheNutcracker Nov 2014 #3
When the best bet for a Democrat in the White House is a Conservative, Maedhros Nov 2014 #5
I humble disagree angrychair Nov 2014 #6
Barrack Obama was the complete embodiement of a "moderate tone" Cosmocat Nov 2014 #11
I agree. In terms of just name recognition the next craigmatic Nov 2014 #7
Run Elizabeth Run .... Please flying-skeleton Nov 2014 #8
LOL Cosmocat Nov 2014 #10
Hillary will run to Obama's right. And lose. blkmusclmachine Nov 2014 #9
I will support whoever Democrat runs for President. RedSpartan Nov 2014 #12
Right Cosmocat Nov 2014 #14
Enthusiasm... Blue Idaho Nov 2014 #13
She is no sure thing for sure Cosmocat Nov 2014 #15
I'm not at all sure liberalism is to blame. Blue Idaho Nov 2014 #16
Yeah Cosmocat Nov 2014 #18
I completely agree! Blue Idaho Nov 2014 #19
AGREED! Cosmocat Nov 2014 #21
Let's be clear that I'm ambivalent? lol Nitram Nov 2014 #20
Fair enough Cosmocat Nov 2014 #22

Wounded Bear

(58,649 posts)
1. I more or less agree...
Reply to Cosmocat (Original post)
Wed Nov 19, 2014, 06:52 PM
Nov 2014

I'm getting tired of the Repub-lite we've been getting from the Dem Party for a while now, but they do tend to be 'better' than the Repub-real thing they run against.

I would love to see and support someone with some real progressive street cred.

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TheNutcracker

(2,104 posts)
2. I wonder about Martin O'Malley of MD. They are already going after him in polling
Reply to Wounded Bear (Reply #1)
Wed Nov 19, 2014, 07:04 PM
Nov 2014

trying to get the numbers to look like the state does not even like him. He is the one they want to stop out the door. He is the one to watch. Bernie Sanders and Liz Warren are called upon, but the media ignores them. There are so many outlets discussing Hillary, and already tired of the b.s. and just want someone they can take a chance on. Both sides are tired of it all, and are not looking forward to a Bush/Clinton race when you ask them. There will be others to check out. For anyone to say it's Hillary because of this or that, I say to you, there is so much more to come.

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Wounded Bear

(58,649 posts)
4. It is certainly too early for a coronation...
Reply to TheNutcracker (Reply #2)
Wed Nov 19, 2014, 07:06 PM
Nov 2014

I would love for the first woman pres to be a Dem, I certainly hope so, but Hillary is not a fave of mine.

We need a serious lurch to the left in this country before it is too late.

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brooklynite

(94,535 posts)
17. Who is this "They"?
Reply to TheNutcracker (Reply #2)
Thu Nov 20, 2014, 01:10 PM
Nov 2014

Did "They" make the predominantly Democratic voters elect a Republican who campaigned on the flaws in O'Malley's record? O'Malley's in trouble now because he was damaged by the results of the November election, as was Andrew Cuomo (limited win margin and no coat-tails).

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Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
5. When the best bet for a Democrat in the White House is a Conservative,
Reply to Cosmocat (Original post)
Wed Nov 19, 2014, 07:21 PM
Nov 2014

then I refuse to take that bet.

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angrychair

(8,698 posts)
6. I humble disagree
Reply to Cosmocat (Original post)
Wed Nov 19, 2014, 07:34 PM
Nov 2014

You stated "And, like it or not, the moderate tone wins out in Presidentials." I don't think PBO was the "moderate" choice in 2008 or 2012. I would also say that was not the case for 2014. Stong Dems that supported PBO and Dem ideals all won. Those that ran away from them lost. EVERY.SINGLE.ONE.
ANY strong Dem candidate that stands by Party planks will beat ANY "moderate" DINO or rethug. Not my opinion but historical fact.

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Cosmocat

(14,564 posts)
11. Barrack Obama was the complete embodiement of a "moderate tone"
Reply to angrychair (Reply #6)
Thu Nov 20, 2014, 10:01 AM
Nov 2014

which is what I posted.

His whole 2008 campaign was based on being the adult in Washington.

There were a LOT of liberals who WANTED him to be a fire breathing liberal lion, but if you listened to what he SAID, his positions were quite moderate. He has done nothing as president that has surprised me, I listed to him.

But, his gift was his presence and tone, and as political beast the ability to let people put their assumptions to him.

And, his reelection, what he DID in office was VERY much moderate.

Bush II won on this "compassionate conservative" bullshit, Reagen won on "morning in America."

They weren't screaming conservatives in their campaigns, like BHO they campaigned to moderate tones.

You are using 2014 as a confirmation bias. The people who "ran away" from the president were running in areas where any democrat was a disadvantage in the first place. No flaming liberal is going to beat Mitch McConnell in Tennessee.

Conversely, the people who won standing behind the president were running in stronger democratic areas that you could do that.

But, that again is district or state level races.

PRESIDENTIALS, the moderate tone wins out ...

Last two presidentials the republicans had a half dozen teabaggers trying to out teabag each other - the eventual candidate was the one who was more moderate in tone - McCain and Romney.

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craigmatic

(4,510 posts)
7. I agree. In terms of just name recognition the next
Reply to Cosmocat (Original post)
Wed Nov 19, 2014, 08:46 PM
Nov 2014

closest is Biden. Hillary might just be it for 2016 if we can't find a good progressive

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flying-skeleton

(696 posts)
8. Run Elizabeth Run .... Please
Reply to Cosmocat (Original post)
Wed Nov 19, 2014, 09:10 PM
Nov 2014

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Run Elizabeth Run .... Please ....Run Elizabeth Run .... Please ....Run Elizabeth Run .... Please
Run Elizabeth Run .... Please ....Run Elizabeth Run .... Please ....Run Elizabeth Run .... Please
Run Elizabeth Run .... Please ....Run Elizabeth Run .... Please ....Run Elizabeth Run .... Please
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Cosmocat

(14,564 posts)
10. LOL
Reply to flying-skeleton (Reply #8)
Thu Nov 20, 2014, 09:51 AM
Nov 2014

I would like to see it ...

But, she has pretty clear it isn't something she has in heart.

This is kind of the point.

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RedSpartan

(1,693 posts)
12. I will support whoever Democrat runs for President.
Reply to Cosmocat (Original post)
Thu Nov 20, 2014, 10:43 AM
Nov 2014

Hillary, Warren, Biden, the Ghost of FDR, it does not matter to me. All that matters is winning. The Supreme Court is too important.


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Cosmocat

(14,564 posts)
14. Right
Reply to RedSpartan (Reply #12)
Thu Nov 20, 2014, 11:59 AM
Nov 2014

if people want a more balls out liberal, hope one runs, get behind him or her and have at it in the primary.

Then, get behind the democrat, because even the worst of democrats is going to be infinitely better than whatever republican hits the white house.

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Blue Idaho

(5,049 posts)
13. Enthusiasm...
Reply to Cosmocat (Original post)
Thu Nov 20, 2014, 11:28 AM
Nov 2014

My question is this. Who will make the compelling case for Democratic ideals? Who will get people off their duffs and out to the polls? Who will be able to energize the party and independent voters?

Personally I don't buy-in to the flood of "Hillary's the chosen one" posts around here. In electrical terms the 2016 race is a lifetime away right now. I hope Democrats field a strong roster of potential candidates. With any luck that will push the conversation towards the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. As for Hillary? She looks pretty good on paper but can she excite more than her loyal band of followers?

Time will tell.

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Cosmocat

(14,564 posts)
15. She is no sure thing for sure
Reply to Blue Idaho (Reply #13)
Thu Nov 20, 2014, 12:03 PM
Nov 2014

I think there is an element, especially if they push it, of being the first women president that providers her a margin.

Women are a growing force in politics, and now that BHO has broke the ceiling for minorities, there is a good chance that women getting their shot at it is a winner.

But, again, if people are not happy with her relative to her positions and policies, it isn't some big, grand scheme by the establishment. It is her wanting to be president.

This party is near completely worthless in this moment.

Whatever idealistic vision WE might have of things, there is absolutely no push from the party to do anything, really.

That isn't anyone keeping liberalism down, it is liberalism not ringing the bell.

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Blue Idaho

(5,049 posts)
16. I'm not at all sure liberalism is to blame.
Reply to Cosmocat (Reply #15)
Thu Nov 20, 2014, 12:30 PM
Nov 2014

Seems like time and again - if you strip out the labels and ask about specific policies, Americans favor more liberal ideals than the M$M ever want to admit.

I'm also not so sure the "Party" leads the way - ever. The party provides the mechanism - the candidates provide the "vision thing." The Democratic Party didn't provide a script to candidate Obama - he and his staff touched a nerve in the populace and ignited a movement. As much as M$M and right wingers want to paint the President as "failed" he was overwhelmingly elected - twice - and has a solid list of accomplishments, especially when you consider the sabotage efforts or the TeaPublicans. It seems the Party has had little to do with that.

If the Democratic candidate - whoever they are - fails to connect to a broad spectrum of Americans and offer them solutions to their problems and a vision for a better future, no amount of triangulation will get them into the Oval Office. If Hillary can spark that kind of enthusiasm - she has a shot.

No matter who the Democratic candidate is - I will be there. I will not only vote but I will do the other things needed to elect a Democrat. I always have and I always will.

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Cosmocat

(14,564 posts)
18. Yeah
Reply to Blue Idaho (Reply #16)
Thu Nov 20, 2014, 01:17 PM
Nov 2014

I guess is my point is that while, yeah, on average people favor liberal ideas on things more so than not, they aren't FIGHTING for these things vs the deranged batshit crazy level of fire and emotion for the shitfest that is "conservatism."

Agree on BHO, darn good job under the circumstances of virulent opposition from EVERY member of the other party and his party hiding in a corner.

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Blue Idaho

(5,049 posts)
19. I completely agree!
Reply to Cosmocat (Reply #18)
Thu Nov 20, 2014, 01:25 PM
Nov 2014

We need to get passionate about this shit before we find ourselves in an America without a middle class, a Postal Service, Social Security, Medicare, and Affordable higher education and advanced skills training.

Our Party needs to find its core values and our elected officials need to find their spines. The last thing America needs right now is another Conservative party with 10% less contempt for working Americans.

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