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Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:24 AM

Mint the coin, even if Republicans impeach



If Obama thinks a platinum coin is the best way out of the debt ceiling crisis, he should do it, impeachment or not

BY JONATHAN BERNSTEIN


Surely there are plenty of foolish things that have been said in the discussion of the debt limit, a possible default by the United States government, and the idea of minting a platinum coin to prevent it. But it doesnít get much more foolish than this argument against the coin by Eric Posner:

Another more pressing worry for the Obama administration: impeachment. With a majority in the House, Republicans could easily start impeachment proceedings. And while conviction in the Senate is virtually impossible, as Democrats would not join to create the two-thirds majority needed, merely launching the impeachment process would be politically devastating for President Obama, as it was for President Clinton.


Itís worth paying some attention to this, because itís unlikely to be an isolated concern. Should President Obama somehow manage to skate through the upcoming debt limit confrontation without articles of impeachment drawn up, we can fully expect impeachment to hover over future fights between the Republican House and the Democrat in the Oval Office.

Thatís why itís actually very important for Obama to reject this kind of advice, in which Posner suggests that ďPresident Obama shouldnít take even a low risk of impeachment.Ē

-snip-

more:
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/12/mint_the_coin_even_if_republicans_impeach/

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:33 AM

1. I agree. Don't fear Impeachment

If the Republican Party wants to broadcast how extreme they have become by impeaching both of the last two Democratic Presidents elected, after our nation only impeached one other President in over 200 years, let them. That process would guarentee Democrats regaining controll of the House in 2014.

No more letting the Right bully and intimidate to get their way.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:34 AM

2. Let them impeach ...

since it would show the true "independents" in this country that the Republicans are all about scoring points instead of actually working to aid this country.

As the Repubs sit there arguing, and jobs get put on hold (at best) ... and the economy tanks again under Boner ...

Maybe, just maybe ... people would wake up.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:37 AM

3. That is pure silliness. If you don't want to have a standoff on a govt shutdown, simply

ignore the debt limit. The 14th Amendment says you cannot question the debt. That would also challenge the GOP to try impeachment, but it would be much better to do that on the basis of the Constitution than on some half-asses trick with a magic coin. I'd by in favor of impeachment for any President who tried a stunt like that.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:44 AM

4. I prefer the 14th Amendment to the Coin and either to default but we should not fear impeachment

That is the sub topic of this OP that I think is of greater import.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 03:14 PM

9. The debt and debt limit are two different things.

The 14th A applies to the debt. No one is questioning the debt. The debt ceiling is the amount that can be borrowed. That is just one tool to pay debts. There are others such as increased revenues or cutting the budget. There is nothing that says borrowing more is the only option. A law that has been passed by both parties and signed by presidents in both parties can not be ignored successfully. Courts would not allow it.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 10:17 AM

12. That makes no sense to me.

The debt is what you own. It is the bills that have to be paid. It is the interest on old notes. It is the principal on old notes that have come due. It is all of that.

The text reads " The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned."

It is nonsensical to try to argue that certain of our obligations are not actually debts. The amendment is specific about what can be excluded as debt the country has to honor unconditionally , "But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."

Since the end of December, we have been stretching out the payments owed to government contractors. If payment was expected in 30 days, we're making that 60 days or 90 days. How can you say that isn't a debt? In a few more weeks, that technique wil no longer be sufficient and we will have to sell additional paper in order to pay those debts.

Nonetheless, any challenge to the 14th amendment would take some time -- probably months. The President most certainly can invoke the 14th and sell more paper now. There is some chance that through a drawn-out challenge, his actions would be found Unconsitutional. But so what? Does anybody thing we would not honor the tbills sold during that time? Of course we would honor them.

And the President would will the PR battle every day of that challenge.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 11:55 AM

13. Again no one is questioning debt.

Which is different than "obligations". When you read the 14th A you will notice the first part applies to the U.S. and uses the term "public debt". When the amendment was first proposed the words "or obligations" was part of it. Congress rejected that phrase because they knew that no Congress can ever bind a future Congress in terms of spending. You will notice the phrase "or obligation" is part of the amendment which applied to the Confederacy.

The debt ceiling law applies to borrowing not debt. Borrowing is just one way to pay bills. There are many others such as increased revenue or cutting budget items. I doubt President Obama wants to do something unconstitutional which would call into question all borrowing and spending when it was declared unconstitutional. The U.S. brings in about $200 billion a month in revenue. That is plenty of money to pay our public debt. But it is not enough to pay for other spending and that is the problem.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #13)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 09:22 PM

15. No, that is not enough money to pay our debt.

It MIGHT be enough to pay the INTEREST on the part of our debt that already has instruments outstanding.

Some people share your OPINION about the 14th, and some do not. It is only your opinion, as it has never been tested and settled.

Here is a fairly extensive opinion that there is no real distinction between "debt" and "obligations that must be paid". They both comprise our debt.
http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2011/07/obligation-is-debt-that-must-be-paid.html

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:22 PM

5. My vote is to go ahead with the coin, but mint at least 4 coins to ensure you don't have to ever

revisit the debt ceiling debate again during the remainder of the Obama Administration. While the 14th Amendment option and the coin option are both viable options in case the repubs want to hold the debt ceiling hostage, the 14th Amendment option could be challenged in court and ultimately lead to having the SCOTUS decide and we wouldn't want to spend the next two years going down that avenue. Neither do we want to visit a month to month raising of the debt ceiling as Grover Norquist has proposed to his minions in the interest of keeping Obama on a "leash" as if he were a dog.

The coin option is indisputable that the Executive Branch (i.e. The Treasury) has the power to do this, whether or not that was the original intention of the law authorizing the act, and people should stop calling it a joke, or a trick pony since it is no different than what happens when the Fed normally prints paper money. As long as the coins are sitting on the shelf in the vault at the Treasury it's not going to create an environment of hyperinflation as some worry about, because we're not growing the money supply beyond what our economy is capable of absorbing under current circumstances unless, Congress also authorized $4 trillion of additional spending at the time the coins were minted and then appropriated the funds to spend and additional $4 trillion. Increasing the debt ceiling to pay current debt is not the same thing as authorizing new spending and appropriating the funding to do that new spending.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #5)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 02:16 PM

8. I agree one isn't enough

they should do enough to not have this fight again. They will threaten to not vote for anything else he wants but since when do they anyways?

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:43 PM

6. Clinton wasn't "devastated" by impeachment....

It may have slowed him down, but he got shit done anyway.

Impeachment hurt the Repubs more than anything else. It's when people started to realize how bat shit crazy they've become.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 01:00 PM

7. The only reason why impeachment was damaging to Clinton...

...was because he was caught with his pants down, so to speak. He had an affair and lied about it.

Granted, I don't think anyone here thinks that's a worthy grounds for impeachment, nor does it nullify the good accomplishments of President Clinton, but it was certainly embarrassing.

President Obama has no such scandals. I imagine the Republicans have had their dirt-diggers searching for extra-marital affairs, or anything else they could hold against Obama, and the worst they could do is obvious horseshit like birfer conspiracy theories.

So if the GOP impeaches, I don't think it would hurt Obama at all - the spectacle would completely backfire on the Republicans, and they would destroy what's left of their credibility and relevance just in time for 2014.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:26 PM

10. Put Reagan on the Head side

And put GWB on the Tails side, yes it would have two heads, but GWB is an ASS so it is appropriate.

Come to think of it, double head, double ass...!? Screw them, put thier fucking faces on it and let them deal with reality.



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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:28 PM

11. Obama Administration Rejects Platinum Coin Debt-Ceiling Solution

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 01:34 PM

14. It was not devastating for Clinton, the republicans got smacked down hard after that

at least what I remember. I was still in high school

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