"Identity politics" is a term used by conservatives to attack social justice.

[DanTex]

You don't hear practitioners of so-called "identity politics" using the term.

Take, for example, gay marriage. No advocate for LGBT rights talks about gay marriage as an "identity politics" issue. Only opponents of gay marriage do that. And they do it because they want to deny rights to LGBT people, and the term "identity politics" helps their anti-LGBT cause.

The point of what right-wingers dismissively call "identity politics" is to ensure that all people have equal rights. Yes, sometimes this requires focusing on specific groups. This is not to split the populace into warring factions. It is because the so-called "identity groups" that right-wingers talk about are groups of people who are being systematically denied equal rights in the status quo.

It's not enough just to say "everyone should have rights" when we have a system that systematically denies rights to certain groups. It is necessary to identify those groups and the kinds of discrimination they face, and to specifically fight against each form of discrimination.

"Identity politics" will only go away when all people have equal rights. And we're pretty far from that right now. And until we get there, I am going to stand with any group of people who are being discriminated against.

[JHan]

1. Thing is "identity politics" ..

is inevitable.

As I said in a thread yesterday:

People HAVE ALWAYS voted in their own self interests or THOUGHT they were voting in their self interest - like Trump voters this year but I digress..

. Identity pertains to Class/Race/Gender/Religion/ Income Bracket - it relates to community/town/city/region and how institutions treat with individuals depending on those categories. How I perceive or experience Institutions or Government is connected to identity. When African Americans draw attention to criminal justice reform - that falls under the umbrella of addressing "Identity" and using political power to address institutional discrimination particularly since over criminalization disproportionally affects african americans.

And let's remember, even for Obama, many of the precious "white rural voters" everyone is talking about didn't even vote for Obama. Obama got the urban votes in Ohio, Wisconsin and Michigan back in 2008 using a very broad populist message against an unpopular administration.

What ID critics don't realise is that identity is not superficial - it shapes how you view the world and experience the world as a gay man, gay woman, black man or black woman, white man or white woman intersected with the opportunities that are or are not available to you. We can't ignore this, our systems are all "too human" - with all the vice and flaws that entails.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

2. Identity politics is myopia that sets like-minded groups against one another

instead of finding common ground and common cause, what the right-wing thinks or labels is irrelevant.

My university had three rival feminist factions that would publicly attack one another and you would have to be really, really well read on the subject to even articulate their philosophical differences. This was apparently more constructive to them than say going after Campus Crusade.

[DanTex]

3. No, it sets people who want equal rights against people who don't.

The people who are against "identity politics" are the ones who don't want discriminated against groups to have equal rights.

Fighting for gay marriage, for instance, doesn't pit anyone against anyone, except for people who don't want LGBT people to have equal rights. Some people who aren't LGBT might not care as much since it doesn't affect them, but they aren't being set against anyone, unless they are homophobes, in which case it is right to fight against them.

[bettyellen]

4. Yes, we've seen that some have no interest talking about policies that help women and POC....

And yet they pretend to be for "justice for all".
It's as bullshit as the colorblind and egalitarian crap people spout. Every single one of them is telling us to stand down and bow to their needs.

[JCanete]

9. editing. Sorry, I misread this so I'm retracting my comment. nt

[SaschaHM]

12. That's grossly out of context.

The poster was referring to the "some" that they mentioned earlier. That's not a broad brush. You're taking a sentence and applying it to a larger subset than the poster did.

[JCanete]

13. I think you're right. Misread and will edit. nt

[bettyellen]

23. Thanks. Even being specific about the subset is not enough to prevent irrational responses.

[emulatorloo]

35. "Identity Politics" is Civil Rights. And some folks just don't care much about Civil Rights

So they belittle people who care about civil rights by calling them "Social Justice Warriors" 0r saying the are pushing "Identity Politics."

God forbid these types get to remake the Democratic Party in their image. If so, they'll be abandoning our base.

On Edit: linked this article and another in a post below. Figured I should put it here too:

Stop Calling It Identity Politics — Its Civil Rights
Marcus Johnson

https://extranewsfeed.com/stop-calling-it-identity-politics-its-civil-rights-50ef9bdfda09#.22g5u3b8j

[duffyduff]

56. They are upset with people like me who cut through the b.s. about the entitled white males.

These guys think they are entitled to the best jobs and think they got them through merit instead of the fact of their skin color and genitalia. They get pissed off if anybody else makes any kind of inroads into it.

The people who make excuses for these guys and say we must "appeal" to these guys who will not listen to reason are for the most part white males themselves.

They stick together. It is all about them. Selfish male socialization is at work here.

[bettyellen]

59. Yep, among Hillary voters the ones saying "it won't be so bad" are not POC and they

Sure aren't women. We also weren't the ones mindlessly repeating "everyone hates her".... that was men on all sides of the political spectrum.

[duffyduff]

60. Yeah, "everybody" hates HRC despite the fact she was and still remains one of the most

admired women in the entire world.

We know that men on the left are infamous for their hatred of women. It goes way back to at least the 1960s, when these guys were so upset women denied them the unfettered sexual access these guys who worshipped sexual liberation craved and felt they were entitled to. They have been pissed off ever since.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

5. It sets single-issue myopics against one another

Because each and every faction will insist that it is an ism or phobia if their issue is merely afforded equal billing with others and not tagged global crisis priority number one.

Behold the insanity of the conflict between Black Lives Matter and Toronto's gay community.

[bettyellen]

22. I didn't see that within HRCs campaign at all. The BOBs pushed a divisiveness that ran past

The primaries and some are still at it.
But I didn't see it within the party in the way you describe at all. HRC had a host of issues and BOBs were about 1-3 at most. So that's an interesting thing unless you ARE talking about how narrow Sanders campaign was.

Examples?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

25. I didn't say anything about Hillary Clinton

Our plight is that we as Democrats own the cultural left whether we want them or not and when they run amok we suffer for it.

I would tell you what I think about the Bernie or Busters but everything I say about Bernie Sanders seems to get hidden.

[bettyellen]

26. The whole conversation about "identity politics" consists of blaming Hillary's failure on them...

And cultural left? Since when are human rights a cultural issue? Or a single issue? what the fuck? We are the biggest part of the base, and we don't know if we want anyone who talks about our human and civil rights as if they can or should be downplayed. Get used to it.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

29. Well they certainly didn't help her any

but as you well know I have other thoughts on why she failed.

I also suspect you're misinterpreting the phrase "cultural left", some people refer to them as "cultural marxists" but I don't really like that phrase because it implies more than is really there.

For instance (and I am firmly on the record as despising Bernie Sanders) the allegations that some of Bernie's supporters were racist and sexist were absurd. They were supporting someone else but at least on race and gender issues the probability of Bernie's supporters have any deep disagreement with Hillary's supporters that would support such an allegation was ridiculous.

[bettyellen]

32. The contention that there could be any group free of sexism or racism is absurd....

As was the reaction of many here pretending anyone called Bernie or them racist (or sexist) when people merely complained they were having their concerns shunted aside. (One person did and that was used to condemn every other person)

When people here brought up those issues people LIED and said it meant that they were being called racists etc. Mind you- this is exactly the same semantics game the white nationalists are playing right now.

When you point out that bias is occurring it does not mean you are condemning someone as racist or sexist.
That's nonsense and it's designed to silence people.

DUers hounded the AA community here and tried to silence them because they didn't fall in line behind Bernie. It was shameful.

In real life I knew quite a few BoBs who said horrible sexist things- some are just half asleep and repeating bullshit, half are actually pretty damned sexist in other ways. Many many people had no idea of her policies of actions and felt totally comfortable mistating both because of a vague "feeling" they just didn't like her. That is what sexism and racism looks like. Not spending a moment to evaluate a human being before judging them.

[DanTex]

33. The only "single issue" drive I've seen is from socialists who think that economics is everything.

Nobody thinks gay marriage is the only issue that matters. Nobody thinks that police discrimination is the only thing that matters.

But some people think that Wall Street is the only issue that matters. And that's a problem.

[bettyellen]

42. Dan, so true and succinct - I'm stealing this okay?

[duffyduff]

61. It isn't socialists but Marxists like Bernie Sanders.

He is a Marxist, not a socialist like he claims, whose roots go back to the New Left of the 1960s.

The world has changed, but he has not. He sees everything through the lens of economic class struggle. He totally disregards the views of women and POC, and believe me, it showed in the primaries.

He is a white male. He is in a privileged group. Like I said, most of them stick together regardless of their politics.

[gollygee]

34. It must be nice to not be the victim of any kind of "ism" so you can dismiss it so easily.

And people of color, LGBT people, women, aren't looking for their issue be tagged global priority number one. We just want our rights protected. We are also concerned about climate change, the economy, etc. It isn't a binary thing.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

43. So then why does saying "all lives matter" require a public apology?

why is acknowledging that white men somewhere, sometime just might face some form of injustice in their lives the great moral panic of our time?

[gollygee]

47. When "all lives matter" is said in response to black lives matter

You're saying that black lives don't really matter all that much. And you aren't acknowledging that black people are the ones in danger.

http://onsizzle.com/embed/i/rhainsawsuit-com-well-i-think-that-we-should-core-all-1335303

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

48. If someone says "cop lives matter" or "white lives matter" fine...

that is setting up for a pretty obviously charged conversation in that context, "all lives matter" is just awkwardly inclusionary.

[gollygee]

49. No

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-damiani/every-time-you-say-all-li_1_b_11004780.html

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

52. Nobody is "accidently racist" on this issue

You are either racist or you aren't, wish-washy bureacratspeak isn't racist it is just awkwardly trying to dodge somebody saying "Oh yeah, but what about the Choctaw!"

[gollygee]

62. There are tons of people who are racist but don't think they are

Last edited Fri Nov 25, 2016, 05:43 PM - Edit history (2)

Example of that in this article: http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/11/23/503180254/is-it-racist-to-call-someone-racist

People who are racist but don't think they are often do or say things that are accidentally racist. They aren't intentionally being racist but they are anyway.

[duffyduff]

54. Yep. Divide and conquer.

Gay marriage is a relatively new development, but "identity politics" has been a term that has been used since McGovern ran his failed presidential bid in 1972. It has been traditionally used to smear POC and women.

[ismnotwasm]

27. So-you feel the experience of an educated white male is the same as a female immigrant?

Different language, culture and color? Or do you "relate" to her.

Or, is she supposed to "relate" to the dominant culture that may hte her very existence or use intellectual bullshit to parse it out?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

30. I'm just assuming you meant to reply to someone else

But if you weren't, her experience and needs will be awfully similar to that of many Americans and those should be addressed by the mainstream.

[ismnotwasm]

37. No I was replying to you.

You know those different theories of feminism you were talking about? Certain African American feminists felt so ignored by white femininism they created their own movement "Womanist". Certain Native American Philosophers could not relate to white feminism at all-because they felt the Damage done to their culture transcended gender and as strictly about race and oppression of their oeople by whites.

I don't know whence this...idea...of economic populism has become a holy grail, but it has serious flaws.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

44. has lashing out at white feminists ever put food in a hungry stomach?

[ismnotwasm]

45. It formed a narrative where black women could empower themselves outside of the frame of whiteness

First through throught, then words, them action. So yeah. Forming supportive groups is a highly effective technique. Humans do it all the time. Sometimes it to call attention to those who have important stories but no voice to express them. Finding a voice to tell one's story is very important-you think an economic purple plan is going to reach the historically repressed?

Now I agree we need to brainstorm, to soul search, to find the best economic message possible, what I aLeo believe is that there is always a significant number of racist and sexist assholes who are not going to vote for Democrats no matter how well we frame our economic message. Nor do I believe that putting social justice on some kind of metaphorical back burner will dous any good either.

It's not an either or situation.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

50. Empowering one's self in a fourth year seminar course is unattainable to a lot of people

The issue isn't messaging because it isn't our message as Democrats that is the problem, at least when one discusses identity politics. When some students somewhere in New England make the national news for protesting because anamorphic pony isn't listed as a race on a scholarship form we get painted with that. In Europe these clowns form their own political parties and the center and left leaning parties can wash their hands of them. In our two party system we're stuck with them whether we want them or not.

The Republicans love this nonsense, it is pure unadulterated meth to their base.

[duffyduff]

57. "Identity politics" is a smear term that has been around since at least 1972. It was used

to trash women and POC because they supported Democrats like George McGovern.

See, there are people who were alive then and remember how minorities and women were treated.

It long predates the postmodernist crowd.

[Quayblue]

6. I agree and have been saying the same for months. Nt

[flamingdem]

7. Identity politics was in full swing at universities in the 1990s and later

I know because I dealt with it's obnoxiousness several times.

Power tripping by another name. Revenge on white or other nationalities if it could fit the paradigm and help you advance your career also.

[Demsrule86]

14. Seriously? that sounds GOPesque.

[flamingdem]

19. Think small minded less than deserving academics trying

to rule over students without enough power to fight back.

It is a bit gop like in fact. Only they think they are the best and smartest liberals around.

In the UC system there are many perks and large salaries to be had, it can be ruthless.

Oh and they think they are do-gooders but they are judgemental and small minded freaks.

[Hayabusa]

24. It's not GOPesque, but it has been used to further conservative agendas

Look at some of the more extreme rhetoric that's being used by certain groups: it sounds a hell of a lot more like wanting to get even than it is looking for equality.

Cons get hold of it and then they make EVERY group with the same philosophy into that outlier. And to be honest, the left does the same with certain right wing groups.

[bettyellen]

21. That sounds like cut throat "office politics" that takes many different forms in the workplace....

I'm not sure what it has to do with the Dem party. Unless you think RW complaints of "reverse racism" are true? The actual white nationalists are complaining about that right now. many DUers did too, and hounded the AA community here for months.

[Eleanors38]

55. Heh. Just how do you give a positive image make-over to millions of white folks?

For now, that amorphous population is a sink hole where everyones garbage can be dumped without fear of a public health citation.

But you can lose an election.

[David__77]

8. I'm gay and won't support a politician on the basis of being gay.

If the best candidates for office were all straight, I would support them. I don't need the politician voting for same sex marriage rights to be gay - I need them to vote for same sex marriage rights. I don't know if that position of mine is contrary to "identity politics"; if so, then I expressed a viewpoint contrary to identity politics.

I see no need for straight people to quiet their voices or surrender their power with the purpose of empowering gay people.

[DemocraticWing]

11. I'd never vote for Peter Thiel, for instance.

Does that make me a traitor to gay people everywhere? I would hope not.

[Demsrule86]

15. Depends why you don't vote for him...but I think you would fight for his rights regardless.

[DemocraticWing]

16. Because he's a right-wing fanatic of course. Just because we're both gay doesn't mean I support him.

[kcr]

39. No. Because that is not the point.

No one is claiming you have to vote for a gay person because they're gay. Or a woman because they're a woman. That is a false argument meant to smear those who fight for equality.

[bettyellen]

18. There have been implications that women are running only on their womanhood....

So the question is if you saw a politician who was 90% aligned with your preferred policies and vocal about LBGT rights and others painted them as only running on "being gay" what would that say to you about the "allies" making that claim? How would you feel if someone painted your vote for them as only about being gay- and asked you to "tone it down" going forward?

Those are the suggestions I have been and am still (sadly) reading and seeing all over the place.

[DanTex]

36. A bunch of straw arguments.

Nobody is suggesting supporting politicians on the basis of being gay.
Nobody is suggesting that straight people quiet their voices.
Especially not me, a straight person.

I am suggesting, strongly, that a politician who doesn't support gay marriage should be vigorously opposed. Some people would call that "identity politics" because gay marriage is an issue that nominally only affects a small fraction of the population. And that's what I'm opposed to.

[backscatter712]

10. This. It's French for "Get back to the back of the bus!"

Fuck that shit.

I think it's time to really get in the faces of the bigots.

[Bradical79]

17. We need to not overcorrect

Some sources have really gone overboard in attacking identity politics. You need a balance. We botched the economic message this go round, and it's not like rural white people are the only working class people in America. I'll copy and paste what I wrote in another thread:

There are real issues with corporate corruption inluencing the party that need dealt with, and a real 50 state strategy needs to be implemented.

I worry about overcorrecting on the issue of "identity politics" though. There's a lot of Bernie's message I like, which is why I voted for him in the primaries. The problem is that the idea that "a rising tide lifts all boats" is not really true. Lots of minorities in the U.S. have been left out of past periods of prosperity, and have been actively beat down when they do experience that. Talking about abandoning identity politics in favor of a pure economic message ignores reality. Identity and ecomimics is linked. You need both messages.

[bettyellen]

20. I am there with you on that.

[emulatorloo]

38. Very well said, thank you.

[Eleanors38]

58. I am in general agreement. I am also a member of an 80,000,000 i.d. group....

Gun-owner.

We need a different language and set of policies when addressing white people. Right now, policies are not clear, and the language sucks.

[SidDithers]

28. DU rec...

Sid

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

31. Thats funny - I first heard the term yrs ago in regards to "christian identity movement" -heres yet

another example of pot & kettle. Sorta like when they all started going on about Saul Alinksy and Rules for Radicals as a way of putting down liberals .... seemingly without any awareness that those tactics were exactly what teaparty was doing by disrupting meetings and stuff. Guess its somehow different or less objectionable when they do it?

Where do they come up with these things - its like they all learn a new word and they all have to find ways to squeeze it into a sentence. (I say this as someone who used to frequent other forums where there was discussion between left/right.)

[emulatorloo]

40. A couple good thought provoking articles:

Bernie Sanders — and many Democrats — keep confusing identity politics with tokenism
Comments like “I’m a woman! Vote for me!” show why progressives talk past each other.
Emily Crockett@[email protected] Nov 23, 2016, 12:30pm EST

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/23/13715164/bernie-sanders-identity-politics-democrats-progressives



Stop Calling It Identity Politics — Its Civil Rights
Marcus Johnson

https://extranewsfeed.com/stop-calling-it-identity-politics-its-civil-rights-50ef9bdfda09#.22g5u3b8j

[pansypoo53219]

41. war on being nice. they don't wanna be made to be nice.

[Coventina]

46. Thank you. "Identity politics" is decried by those who most religiously practice it.

IE: White, straight, Christian, men.

[robbedvoter]

51. We call it "CIVIL RIGHTS"

anyone who doesn't, well...

[duffyduff]

53. "Identity politics" is a term used to shut down discussion of those most negatively affected

by our society: women and people of color.

What these people, even those around here are saying, is we are supposed to put white males, who ARE as a group THE privileged group in our society, front and center. Everybody else needs to shut up.

This despite the fact most of these white males--the dudes, I call them, because of their entitled attitude about everything--haven't been part of the Democratic Party for DECADES.