Disappointed, Disgusted and Done.

[Xyzse]

In certain ways, I have reached acceptance.

The first Democratic Primary debate brought me such hope. It showed a distinct difference between the quality of the Presidential candidates between the oafish, lying clowns that was the Republican hopefuls in comparison to the main three candidates of the Democrats.

Hillary Clinton - Accomplished, connected and as such, could fill the roster of the cabinet easily. She was my 2nd to the last choice in 2008, and edged out Obama for me, since by virtue of her connections, I perceived her to be more effective. In some ways, she reliably takes the position that is considered possible at the time. Some could call that as running with the popular sentiment. Both her and Obama are organizers. They can take the pre-existing agendas and try to bring things together.

Martin O'Malley - He was my first choice this time around. He was my Governor, and policy-wise, particularly with education, I was on board. He can lead a discussion and pass laws closely aligned to his positions. He is not shy in taking a stand, but is willing to negotiate to make things happen. This is why I preferred him. I tend to be pragmatic, and he seemed to be the most even keeled out of the three.

Bernie Sanders - This guy's views on infrastructure, fairness, and humanity just amazes me. He is brave, and able to go to organizations and speak about social justice, choice and fairness, even in a hostile environment. He does not back down. He does as he says, remains consistent, and has been in the right side of history in many issues from war, rights and other things. Many of his actions do not get publicized, and I can only applaud that.

I have been an Independent most of my life till January 2016. O'Malley was not gaining any traction, and I figured, it was time. In elections, it is rare for me to be able to vote with my conscience and actually support someone. Last time I did so was a vote for John Kerry who I admire. I even got involved with the black box voting project started by Bev Harris as I could not see how he could have lost. I was so shell-shocked after 2004, and just could not believe it. The issues with the long lines, voting suppression, changes in registration and so forth was deplorable, and any one who condones or minimizes the importance of such matters just because their candidate is winning is part of the problem.

Seeing that there were only two candidates left, I ended up supporting Senator Sanders.

He most closely resembles my priorities, as I have a few tenets that I go by:
-Education must be improved from K-12, and we need to get away from the concentration towards testing as education in this country became making money for the testing industry rather than the children actually learning. Bush and Obama has been deplorable in this regard. Obama was better with college education, but his K-12 implementation has been a continuing disaster.

-Infrastructure and safety-nets need to be better funded and improved. By concentrating on these projects, it is actual work being done which circulates funds throughout the greater economy. America's infrastructure is crumbling, and even now, they are considering making highways in to tollways, which are semi-privatized, and merely takes more money away from the middle class. This needs to be funded by taxation from the upper levels.

-America has turned in to a commercial/banking industry that it makes money out of calculations rather than actual capitalist society. It needs better regulation, taxation, and reducing protections for established industries.

-Established industries need reduced protections as they are already established. They do not create more jobs as they tend to swallow up their competition, stifle innovation, and get rid of redundant jobs. To create more jobs, they have to concentrate on emerging industry, and companies that are about to expand.

So, I ended up with Sanders as he has been an advocate for equality, workers rights, and he looks to improve America from the bottom, going up. Much like his campaign, it is a grass-roots effort from below taking on the establishment.

My posts here, I tend to give a lot of leeway to supporters but go after the campaign and candidates themselves. I fully know that supporters can be passionate, and at many times ridiculous in what they do. They can't be fully controlled and they lash out. One can not blame a candidate for the actions of their supporters at most times. Unless they are like Trump who would egg his supporters to act violent. None of the Democratic candidates have done that.

I, like most Sanders supporters accept and know by now that there is almost no chance that Sanders will get the nomination.

This, does not change the fact that every little thing that has been brought up in this primary, which is tame I might add, will be brought up in the general election.

One can not blame Sanders and his supporters for that, as every little thing brought up that can be verified, was done by Clinton.
-Emails: She probably did nothing illegal does not change the fact that she set up a private server for these things. It is too hard to prove wrong-doing and if you note, the Sanders campaign has not gone after her for this, neither have I. It is his supporters that do, and even without Sanders, this will come up in the general election.

-Transcripts: Even if I mentioned that there is no point for her to release any of them, since if she did, no matter what, people could find negatives by taking it out of context. Similar to Bernie's writing when he was younger. When I read them, the context was not about what the characters were thinking, when read in full the message actually means "People hide behind a veneer of respectability, while having not so respectable thoughts". Like the girl fantasizing about being taken by other individuals while being with her partner. In the end, all people could think of was that it was a rape fantasy, not the actual message. I find that ridiculous. Even if there were questionable issues placed in the transcript, it would be blown out of proportion.

If she were not to release them, the opposition will be able to make up whatever they want in there. They could say anything and it can't be completely refuted. People will believe anything is possible with her, since she is not perceived to be trust worthy.

There are many other negatives to go by. They will be brought up with or without Sanders. Blaming him and his supporters for showing these and posting it online is insane. It is like trying to be willfully blind and putting a finger on your ears trying to wish away unpleasant facts that will be brought up by an actual bully who will be even more ruthless later and show all of this without remorse.

Thing is, Clinton's campaign, has crossed the line for me in two ways. It is egregious enough that it has made it so hard to say that I will vote for her come November. At the moment, I don't know if I can still say it.

Line Crossed 1: Using Sandy Hook to attack Senator Sanders first. This was done in Hillary Clinton's twitter account.

You do not do this to another Democrat. Not only is this patently false, as that reactionary gun law they were trying to pass was a symbolic law that was never going to pass any way. It was a law that penalizes gun manufacturers and gun sellers for selling a legal item. A manufacturer or seller is not liable for the misuse of what they sell.

Not only that, we find out that in this same year, she as Secretary of State approved Remington the manufacturer of the gun used in Sandy hook, to sell outside of America. She has gotten slammed for this, and rightfully so.

Line Crossed 2: Nevada caucus: I take the process of elections seriously, and those who attempt to take away the legitimacy of the process disgusts me.

Look, I do not condone ineffective jackasses who harass and threaten by phone or online. They are idiots that deserve all the pilloring they receive. However, for that to be the story of the day rather than looking at the reasons for the anger and disappointment in Nevada? The fact that they barely talk about that is inexcusable.

I look at the news media, and it is a mess, with mostly hearsay. If there was any actual violence, we would see videos by now.

So, fortunately I have something here from a friend of mine who I trust which is experience from someone who was there in Nevada.

"The Nevada Democratic Committee, despite their commitment to remain neutral, was incapable of fairness or competency. They came up with temporary rules and summarily voted them in, despite a clear divide in the room over this motion. These new rules suspended existing National Democrat Party Rules and basically gave supreme power to the party chair, Roberta Lange, who abused it at every step, pushing through her preferred motions and ignoring any other amendments or motions from the floor. We began calling this "Roberta's Rules of Order."

When half the room began to contest the early morning motions and attempt to make counter motions from the floor, they turned down the lights and turned up the music, eventually showing a video about President Obama, all in an attempt to silence the voices of dissent. The rapid fire motions of the chair and subsequent disregard for any oppositional voices set the stage for a very contentious day.

Senator Barbara Boxer was slated to speak on behalf of Secretary Clinton as was Senator Nina Turner for Senator Sanders. Senator Boxer was not treated respectfully, nor did she handle herself with dignity as she touted Secretary Clinton's record, several dozen Sanders delegates booed her. In lieu of gracefully handling this like the pro-politician she is, she devolved into hurling insults at all the Sanders supporters in the room, 90% of whom were undeserving of her ire.

She called us childish, rude and unpatriotic. It was a perfect example of how when pushed, taking the low road of condescension and defensiveness leads to insulting an entire class of people, instead of deftly addressing the handful of delegates who were acting like assholes.

Senator Turner took the high road and started her speech by telling everyone to be more respectful and come together around the common goals we all share for a better country. She was incredibly inspiring and positive.

About 8 hours into the convention, the chair disappeared and was missing for over four hours. During this time, in lieu of pushing through the agenda and voting for all party positions and national delegates, the party kept delaying the process and hinting that we were running out of the time allotted for renting the casino's convention hall, yet they didn't respond by attempting to actually work through the remaining agenda items.

At first it seemed like incompetency, but it became clear that it was a calculated maneuver, after such a long day, most of the Clinton delegates had left, and the party didn't want Sanders delegates, most of whom had stayed, to influence platform votes or call for a standing recount.

On the issue of the recount: The National Democratic Party rules allow for a motion to perform a standing recount. We were already divided up in the room by Presidential preference, so this would have been an easy task. It was especially justified since after the realignment period, the delegate count was reported to be 1695 for Clinton and 1662 for Sanders. This slight delegate difference would result in a net difference of up to 4 national delegates in Clinton's favor (at-large and PLEOs). Every National Delegate counts.

About the official delegate count: there was a minority report, by a member of the committee tasked with verifying the delegate math, which the committee leaders tried to block from being presented publicly. It was quite a heated argument onstage between the chair and the committee member. When the floor delegates protested to allow her to speak, a sympathetic committee member used their standing to allow the report to be read. This minority report revealed that over 60 sanders delegates had been denied their delegate badges due to an "inability to find their information and confirm their eligibility." It stated in no uncertain terms that these delegates were not given the opportunity to prove their identity/eligibility and were summarily barred from the convention.

With the delegate math split so tight and due to the party chairs trying to block this information from the public, it became very clear that they wanted to keep the numbers in Clinton's favor. I'm not prone to conspiracy theories. this was straight up disenfranchisement of the barred delegates and a blatant move to tilt the national delegates to the party chair's preferred candidate. (not to mention that the convention was scheduled on the same day as UNLV's graduation, prohibiting an expected 150ish elected sanders delegates from attending.)

An interesting moment came when a delegate on the floor rose to speak about the proposed party platform, which we were all to vote on. For the most part, the platform was well-written, proposing very progressive priorities for the state party around gender, ethnic, sexual, economic and other demographic diversity. However, there was a small proposed amendment regarding state election priorities and the future of super-delegates. This person who stood to speak on the motion revealed that she is in fact one of the state super-delegates and moved to amend the state party platform to push for eliminating future national super-delegates. the convention floor LOVED this proposal, even getting cheers from some of the Clinton delegates. This did not go over well with the committee and the proposed amendment was ignored.

In another attempt to stall for time, so that the party could avoid any unwanted motions from the floor, they brought up candidates for congressional district 3 to give speeches about their candidacy. The move backfired. it turned out that two of the candidates are "Bernie-crats" and at the end of their speeches, one of them motioned for a recount. This caught the committee off-guard and the floor delegates began sitting in their chairs to be counted.

Within minutes, the state chair, who had vanished for over four hours stormed up onstage and like a 5-year old in a tantrum motioned to allow the party (instead of the convention delegates) to select the national delegates and to close the convention. She didn't even wait for the overwhelming "nay" vote from the floor, slammed the gavel down and stormed off the stage. Her fellow committee leaders were shocked. They just stood there stunned like the rest of us, wondering what the hell had just happened. The floor was LIVID. The party chair had clearly been backstage planning this and had the police ready, who escorted the committee members out and told everyone to leave or be arrested. End of convention.

There was no chair throwing or violence as has been repeatedly stated in various media reports. (there was a single, near-empty water bottle thrown at the end.) and there was no altercation with police, other than stern warnings to go home or be arrested. In fact, the head of security for the Paris hotel was extremely calm and patient with the room full of shocked and angry delegates. In fact, one of the candidates for congressional district 3 got up again to urge everyone to leave peacefully, promising that everything possible would be done to address what had happened.
Protests were scheduled at state democratic headquarters. This will likely have serious repercussions for the future of the state party, not to mention the thousands of delegates, staff and volunteers who were stripped of their voice and robbed of all our hard work and dedication. Clinton delegates left quite frustrated (both with the convention process and with a few dozen very rowdy/rude sanders delegates). Sanders delegates (the large majority of whom were very peaceful and committed to a fair process) left EXTREMELY angry.

Although I've been keenly aware of the state party establishment's bias for Clinton, I didn't expect such a blatant abuse of power and left sorely disappointed.

The "Bernie or Bust" movement just got a huge boost from the very officials elected to grow and keep the party united. Throughout the day, I spoke with many delegates about the importance of this election, especially in a swing state like Nevada, and it became clear that many Nevadans for Bernie would strongly consider holding their noses for Clinton in the general. after today, that is much less likely.

Also, the NV State delegation to the national convention is left in limbo, as we never got around to electing the delegates. (I was actually one of several dozen candidates for district and at-large national delegate. would have been cool to attend the national convention in Philly.) It's a shame, as so many dedicated Clinton and Sanders supporters spent months working tirelessly for their respective candidates only to have their hard work and hopes of representing their candidate at the national convention smashed by the disgraceful actions of a few corrupt party officials.

Multiple reports have come out that party chair, Roberta Lange, has since received a large volume of angry and often violent text and voice messages from angry Bernie supporters who published her personal phone number on social media. some of them were threats of violence to her and her family. this is completely unacceptable and those who made them should be shamed of themselves and held to account.

These despicable actions by Bernie bros on the internet in no way, however, excuse her own despicable behavior to those of us peacefully engaging in the political process. There will be an opportunity to join with other Bernie-crats to influence the NV Democratic central committee and hopefully ensure the ouster of the party chair. She's not the only problem, but her shameful abuse of power demands that she be held accountable.

After all is said and done, I will keep volunteering for Senator Sanders and help get out the vote in other remaining states. I will also be helping the campaigns of some of the truly progressive congressional candidates in Nevada. as disgusted as I feel after this trampling on the democratic process, the political revolution has never been about just the white house. I made a short speech during the congressional district break out, where I urged everyone to channel their passions and keep it going for local and state races. that's where real change is going to begin..."

I can only thank the Hillary campaign, her supporters, the DNC, and Debbie Wasserman Schultz to turning off and alienating a host of newly minted Democrats and progressive independents who with that feel like there is no point in dealing with the establishment Democrats.

So now, I have come to another acceptance.

I do not think Hillary Clinton can win. At this point, with her lying, this cheating(even if they say they are not, it still makes her wins look illegitimate), closeness to big business, I am now not convinced that she will not hurt America that much less than Trump.

So, I will help local races like crazy to win as many Democrats in the House and Senate. That to me, is the only way to mitigate the damage that either of the two candidates will do to America.

I now know my course of action. Good luck.

[griffi94]

1. Sorry to see you go

[Xyzse]

12. I apologize if I was not clear. I am not leaving... Maybe GD: Primaries, but that's it.

My post can basically be summed up with the following:

1 - I accept that the possibility of Sanders winning the nomination is close to non-existent.

2 - What the media has focused on and sensationalized are in the greater scheme of things minor in comparison to the problems that are going under the radar.

3 - Hillary's campaign, her supporters and the way the primaries have been run has shown how the process falls short.
--A-- Super Delegates: To those that actually listen to what Bernie is saying, he has not said the system is bad and we should just do away with the super delegate system. All he has said has been that the Super Delegates should not immediately announce who they are backing so early in the primaries. In doing so, it influences other voters and shows establishment favoritism.
--B-- Voting Suppression/Irregularities: Anything that makes the process looks compromised weakens a candidates legitimacy. The chicanery done in Nevada is ludicrous, and deserves to be lambasted for all its worth. It does not matter who is winning, that should never be done.

Once someone has the lead, one has to ensure that the process is fair. That this looks like it is being swept under the rug, while outrage on the behavior of supporters is what is publicized. They are showing the aftermath without looking at the root causes.

4 - I don't have any demands. I do suggest that the HRC campaign, the DNC and her supporters to take a good look at the effects of their actions. At this late stage of the game, especially while ahead, things that happened in Nevada should not have happened at all. That type of behavior from the DNC merely tells people fairness and the people don't matter.

The thing with Sanders is, when I read about the attacks on him, going beyond the media and looking at the source, I end up liking his position even more as it is based on the idea of fairness. Hillary has reasons for her positions as well and I can say that she is pretty consistent on pushing for the extent of what is possible, and go from there. That does not make her bad, in fact, that is a glowing positive in my opinion. The problem is, when she talks and campaigns she misrepresents events, history and she has crossed two lines for me.

5 - I don't think Hillary can win any more, and frankly with the way the DNC, and her campaign has acted, it just makes things worse and harder to care. I feel like my vote is in hostage, where I have to vote for her or give legitimacy to a monster.

6 - I will now focus on local races as that is what I think can mitigate damage. I think that is far more important now.

---
I have never gone after Hillary for emails and transcripts as they can not be fully verified. Even if they are questionable, I can't say anything about it as there is many unknowns. Unfortunately, those matters will not go away either with or without Sanders. I agree that it is probably best not to show any transcripts as anything said there will be blown out of proportion. The problem with this and the emails is that since not much is known and proven, the opposition can say anything they want and attack her for this even worse than she has been now.

I don't think that would be fair either, but without transparency, that is what is going to happen.

So any how, no one condones the actions of those idiotic individuals who send out threats by phone or online. However, people really need to pay attention to the underlying reasons such things happened to begin with. It does not excuse their behavior, but the cause deserves looking in to, as they have to be fair. Nothing pushes away people faster than when they feel that they have been played unfairly.

There is such a focus on supporters actions, which I find unfortunate, since that is the wrong place to look at. It is like trying to treat the symptoms rather than figuring out the cause.

[riversedge]

2. No matter. We have our nominee #HRCIsOurNominee

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


#HRCIsOurNominee


Even Bernie says so

[Scootaloo]

5. Too bad she came up with a campaign of lies and blood libel against him.

[boston bean]

14. That tweet is truthful.

[Scootaloo]

19. Not in the least. But thanks for the reply

[bvf]

51. That tweet is hateful, manipulative bullshit

but par for the Clinton campaign.

[AgerolanAmerican]

52. Here's some actual truthful

Hillary Clinton actually supplied military weapons to Islamic fundamentalists in multiple countries where they have killed and continue to kill hundreds of thousands of people.

[cui bono]

89. Your post is not.

[Demsrule86]

60. She did no such thing

Too bad you guy is a spoiler by refusing to admit he lost and concede and endorse...and will help the worst republican in my lifetime win elections...you must be so proud. I still think Hillary can pull it off...if anyone can she can...as for Bernie, I hope I never see his face politically speaking again. I doubt he will win re-election in Vermont after this...I don't care how 'popular' he was...ushering in Trump will cost him in popularity terms.

[Scootaloo]

73. Your gish galloping needs work.

[beaglelover]

74. Nothing untruthful in that tweet.

[Scootaloo]

78. Only everything

Your candidate stooped lower than any piece of shit Republican right there. She exploited the families of children who had been murdered in an effort to paint her primary opponent, a Jewish man, with their blood.

That's what Clinton does, it's who she is. And it's what you are for supporting that from her.

[beaglelover]

81. If you say so, then of course, it MUST be true.

[liberal_at_heart]

3. Local races are extremely important. It's important like you said to help like crazy when

a truly good left of center liberal politician runs at any level whether it is federal or local. I am done voting straight Democratic ticket as I have done my entire adult life. From now on I only vote when there is a left of center liberal to vote for. If there is no left of center liberal on the ballot, my ballot will be left blank.

[Scootaloo]

4. Don't expect any of her supporters to care. This is basically just the superbowl to them

[opiate69]

13. More like the middle school homecoming game for them.

Last edited Fri May 20, 2016, 03:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Given the average maturity level of their pom-pom waving inanity.

[cwydro]

40. And your insults would fit in with what school level?

Hmmm?

[opiate69]

64. Well...

Certainly higher than the level of "I know you are, but what am I?"

Hmm indeed.

[cwydro]

75. Thanks for the laugh.

[Xyzse]

16. It's not even that.

The point I tried to make with this message is that I can accept that Sanders will not be the nominee.

The way they handled the Nevada caucus and them trying to sweep under the rug legitimate concerns of irregularity, unfairness and bad behavior by the chair, the way Senator Boxer lashed out on a few idiots generalizing it to the rest of the supporters and then going off to say there was violence when there is none, just makes the not look credible at all.

This is especially true when you see videos of Lange walking out smiling after the caucus.

They don't need to do all of this craziness which makes the process look illegitimate.

Yes, it plays in the main news media, but it foments anger, disappointment and disgust from people that pay attention and are active who are young and is considered the future of the party.

These are pointless gains that are detrimental to the future. They don't need to be this insulting, condescending and using all these procedural unfairness to win.

It just makes the general election harder and harder to win.

They are not doing themselves a favor, and to me, anything that suppresses the vote or makes voting unfair needs to be remedied.

The fact that they are minimizing this is what I find abhorrent. I could care less who is winning at that point.

[LWolf]

87. They forget

that the losing team at the super bowl is forgotten, and doesn't get much respect.

This is the division championship. The superbowl is in November, and while they are cheering now, I don't think the game will be that pleasing then.

[pacalo]

6. Thanks for a very excellent OP, Xyzse.

Your friend is impressive!

[emsimon33]

7. If Hillary cheats her way to the nomination there will be a mass exodus from the DP

[Demsrule86]

62. Hillary won

The only attempt to cheat is by Sanders ...overturning the Nevada primary and the entire primary...so leave. You are loud and all, but I think a minority when all is said and done.

[AtomicKitten]

8. Thank you for your thoughtful OP.

[cliffordu]

9. Most excellent. K&R

[Uncle Joe]

10. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for sharing, Xyzse.

[Samantha]

11. Hang in a little longer Xyzse -- I too live in Maryland and know exactly how you feel

O'Malley would have made an excellent choice, he was such an excellent governor. He and Sanders were disadvantaged from the beginning by the lack of media coverage. Neither had enough name recognition throughout the Country, and by the time they both found ways to get some coverage, months had passed and Hillary had begun winning some southern states.* Sanders' platform and his online ability to raise funds allowed him to stay in the race, and when O'Malley dropped out, his supporters joined Sanders. We have not seen the last of Martin O'Malley on the national scene.

It is always a punch in the gut to realize our government has people functioning in it who are corrupt. Some of those people actually influence the elections!! We have to get past that severe shock and keep on keeping on if we want to change anything. And that includes keeping people like you around.

Sam

* That was the strategy -- to line up a few southern states to vote first where Hillary was expected to win so she could jump to an early lead while Sanders and O'Malley were still trying to introduce themselves to the voters. Having an early lead allowed her campaign to start staying she was inevitable....

Her campaign has said recently it will "disqualify" Sanders. We can't allow that to happen.

[Xyzse]

82. Oh, forgot to reply to you.

Thank you by the way. I hope you know that I was not leaving, merely stating that at the moment, I think it is best for me to just concentrate on state races now.

Didn't realize that my post looked like it was saying a good bye when it was merely stating I am mostly done with the Presidential primaries.

Still donating and so forth, but I just reached certain amounts of acceptance, as Trump looks to become more and more of an inevitability. Part of me is trying to console myself thinking that with the House and Senate, it would hopefully mitigate the damage he does.

-Networks are now painting him to be acceptable. This is crazy, but that is what they are doing.
-Networks are finally emphasizing Hillary's negatives, where a lot of it was ignored prior.
-Networks tend to favor close races, to the detriment of the country.
-The Clinton campaign has alienated a lot of Independents and newly minted Democrats, many will still vote for her, but a heck of a lot will probably stay home.
-Dismissing voting irregularities and any of this that shows the process looking broken merely hurts her campaign.

I do not post that much in here, and most of my posts have been conciliatory. The type of dismissiveness that they still do is dangerous. I understand that Clinton is leading, there should be no need for this type of behavior. Then accusation of violence and all of that, when there is no proof, the proof in videos tend to favor the Sanders' delegates version of what happened. So the anger is understandable. Threats made however, are serious and should be addressed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Mind if I keep that first hand account.

There is a sense of the historic here. And as to the rest. It was a Dedazo, pure and simple. But, it was also a practice run for November. So my vote is whoever the central tabulator decided it is

[Xyzse]

18. I do not mind.

I can even give you the person's name privately if you wish.

They were a Bernie delegate in Nevada.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. I will just keep it as background

I have seen a few, more than a few...Nevada was a strategic mistake. Future historians might even mark it as the place the battle was won, but the war was lost. And I mean that for the Democratic Party as it stands right now, and the GE

[snooper2]

17. See ya later! Oh, for the other DU'ers you don't have to read the entire blah blah

Just always hit the last couple sentences...will save you some time


" I am now not convinced that she will not hurt America that much less than Trump."

Yeah, right

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Text book example...thank you

[Xyzse]

28. The reason I am not convinced.

The reason I keep saying that local races is more important is because that is what will mitigate any sort of damage done.

If there is a strong Democratic/Independent presence in the House and Senate, even if Trump were president, he would be blunted and the effects of that type of Presidency will be lessened. Assuming that Democrats would finally work hard to be an opposition party and fight for what is right.

Some would think that a Trump Presidency will be a weak Presidency. They have convinced themselves that since he does not know the process, the House and Senate can then mitigate any damage done by the Presidency and keep things at a status quo.

I don't quite believe that, but if local races are well fought for, then no matter who wins it would help.

In regards to Clinton. It seems like she wants to maintain the status quo as well. However, her winning would blunt the Democrats and allow them to continue to coast as they are now, which needs rectifying.

Lastly, the way the DNC has been run in regards to rules being changed arbitrarily, and this process.

So yes, at the moment, I am not convinced that she would be that much better at this time. I agree that Trump's agenda would be disastrous, but hers, if it continues with this corporate power grab which is how most bills have been designed nowadays, it really is not that much better.

For Example:

Education - Focus on testing from K-12, even if they added more funding to this, in essence the money does not go to the children and focus on teaching, much of this spending has gone towards private Testing companies that design and implement these tests. It has become a gimme to this Testing Industry.

I know that Clinton works with what is possible, and there is nothing wrong with that, but I tend to look at other factors such as their effect on the Democrats(would they fight harder or not), the Independents(and other Progressives(will they be engaged and work towards improvement, or would they give up thinking that there is just no point) and how their current actions have derailed the process.

Looking at many factors, she is definitely better than Trump, but it gets less and less with time.

So I came to the acceptance that the possibility of her winning is also getting less and less. I am now changing gears with local races. In terms of defending her, I am quite done.

[Waiting For Everyman]

37. Yep, squelch that information!

And they think they're in touch with reality. It's pretty much a reality-free zone.

[seekthetruth]

53. And if you don't know how or why....

.....then stop watching so much TV and read a book.

[Lizzie Poppet]

71. tl;dr versions are for tl;dr-level minds.

Personally, I read pretty fast and don't need the "for Dummies" version, thanks.

[dana_b]

21. I think that if he wins many of the remaining states and California by a good sized margin

that he COULD have won the nomination. The problem is that he has the entire Democratic leadership against him, the MSM against him and spewing outright lies, and continual smears by Brock and his minions demanding that he drop out. Even if he wins ALL of the remaining states, I think the Democratic party is crooked enough to ignore it and still not support him at the Convention. They will disparage us, him and anyone who supports him so that they can anoint Queenie.

Very good op, btw.

[MoonRiver]

23. You can please some people all of the time the time.

You can please all the people some of the time. But you cannot please all the people all the time. You are clearly one she doesn't please, even to the point where you state you may not vote for her in the GE (which btw, is against DU TOS to say). But its all good, cause she will win handily without you.

[Xyzse]

32. I have not said that I will not vote for her in the GE.

In fact in many of my posts I keep reiterating that I will vote for her in the General Election.

I just keep adding the rejoinder that it is harder and harder to say that.

I doubt that it will come to the point that I can not vote for her, since I don't see myself ever voting for a 3rd party, and I would not want to legitimize Republicans for bad behavior.

The problem is, in some ways I do not want to reward her for her bad behavior either.
So voting is as much as I can do. Donating, helping out the campaign, I just can't in the Presidential level.

Which brings me to the acceptance that:

Local races is what is important to me now. It will mitigate damage of either Presidency.

Thank you.

[MoonRiver]

33. Well, thank you for clearing up the GE thing.

[YouDig]

24. Another Nevada conspiracy theory. Boring. Vote for whoever you want.

[Logical]

25. Hill fans are star struck and want a female so bad they dont care about topics.

[LonePirate]

26. I disagree with the statement that most Sanders supporters know he has no chance.

Last edited Fri May 20, 2016, 01:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Plenty of his supporters, even here at DU, seem to think his chances are no worse than 50-50. Some believe the SDs will ride to his rescue at the convention. Others are so confident Clinton will be indicted that they are practically writing convention acceptance speeches.

Yes, there are some level-headed Sanders supporters who realized his chances of securing the nomination are almost zero. However, they seem to be outnumbered by the true believers who have forsaken reality and expect him to leave Philadelphia as the nominee.

[Xyzse]

34. No, I don't really see it.

I do want him to stay in the primaries so that voters can get their say.

What I really want to bring up is the fact that many are dismissing the causes of the mess in Nevada just because their candidate is winning.

Democrats have to be better than that, and anything that makes Hillary's win illegitimate hurts her as a nominee.

It is why I don't think she can win any more, and I for one just can't defend her.

[LonePirate]

41. Hillary won the NV voters on February 20. A Bernie win at the state convention is illegitimate.

Anything that overturns the will of the voters is illegitimate. People can't complain about the rules in NV thwarting Bernie delegates when they wish to subvert the basic rule of democracy that was enacted back on February 20.

[Xyzse]

50. The issue is what they did during the caucus.

Disenfranchisement of barred delegates is a major issue, even if I agree that Clinton was winning.
Suspending existing rules to give the chair power to push through her rules of order is also a major issue.

Point is, they did not need to do that, and this fiasco merely hardens opposition to their preferred candidate.

[LonePirate]

56. So hypocrisy is the order of the day?

If the Bernie delegates thwart democracy by overturning the will of the people, it's fine; but it someone else does it, then the Bernie delegates suddenly think it's wrong and worth raising a ruckus over?

I'm not condoning the actions of the NV Dem State Party representatives; but the Bernie delegates don't have much leeway here to complain about someone else trying to usurp the will of the people.

[Xyzse]

68. Not at all. Wrong doing is wrong doing.

I agree that Clinton has won Nevada.

Seeing that she won Nevada, it would have been best to ensure that the process was fair. Were they trying to thwart the will of the people? Most of the delegates were merely cooperating with the process. It is voting for the party platform at that point. Being in the lead, one must ensure that there is nothing that would make people question legitimacy.

The fact that they are sweeping that under the rug and merely reporting the aftermath, without dealing with what they did to cause this to begin with is the problem.

It does not excuse bad behavior of threatening because that is just moronic. However, reports of violence looks to be unfounded and tends to look like the Clinton spiel of being shot at on the tarmac, particularly as Lange left the caucus in a video waving and smiling all the while.

Also, the votes in Nevada is close. It is close to half. I would say that yes, they have a reason to have much of a say.

[riderinthestorm]

27. Thank you for this. I recognize when a poster has really put thought and effort into their post

I too believe the Nevada convention is a benchmark for a lot of Bernie supporters. One of his core messages - the system is rigged against us - was out in full display.

To be followed by the shameful media complicity is almost unbelievable.



You're not alone.

Big K & R!

[onecaliberal]

29. She broke many laws with regard to the email scandal.

She jeopardized national security, and purposely did what she was asked NOT to do. If you have read what has been written about this whole unfortunate affair, I suggest you do so. Dismissing this like it's no big deal is wrong. It's a very big deal.

[Xyzse]

30. I can't really say that. Since I do not know and it is unsubstantiated.

I have not said it is not a big deal, just that as there is a lot of questions about things, I can't go after her for that, as I tend to focus on matters that I can verify.

Till more of that can be verified, I will pay attention.

[onecaliberal]

54. Copy and pasting the body of emails from a state department server into the body

of your person email on your personal server is NOT legal and we DON'T have to wait to see if that happened, we know it did. Maybe you should read what people who know about these things are saying. She went around the rules. She also failed to leave ALL communication at the state department when she left, which is also a flagrant violation. So you can wait for the brick wall to drop, but it's pretty clear to most of us.

[Xyzse]

69. I understand.

Like I said, that was one of the things I did not go after her for. Right or wrong, I decided to concentrate on other things.

Even if I think it looks questionable, I don't have it as a done deal. I know that Republicans will go after her for it.

The email server is another fight, and one that I didn't want to join in.

She will have to deal with it in the General election, but I am done at the Presidential level.

[Yurovsky]

39. She clearly broke the law WRT handling of classified material...

that has been established. I don't think you cauldron establish intent, and even as much as I abhor much of what Clinton stands for, I don't believe she would intentionally jeopardize American national security. However her greed - and I clearly believe her actions were motivated primarily by greed and a lust for power - caused her to act irresponsibly and in fact harm national security, although the extent to which she did remains to be seen.

Regardless, it will disqualify her in the eyes of millions of Americans, enough that it may allow Trump to win, something that would not occur if Bernie were the Democratic nominee. IMO.

[onecaliberal]

77. She sent and received classified info on an unsecured server if she didn't know

She was putting national security at risk by doing that she has no business running for dog catcher.

[libdem4life]

83. This and more. Also taking money from a foreign country for "services

rendered"...i.e. a Bill Clinton Speech. I'm sorry...that's not ignorance.

[cali]

31. Thank you.

[Demsrule86]

36. In closing

You want to starve babies don't vote that will do it.

[cali]

61. Incoherent baloney

[Demsrule86]

94. It is completely true

I work with the poor in Ohio ...volunteer for food pantries...already kids go to bed hungry...and if Trump gets in and has three branches of government ...children will go hungry or even starve.

[Demsrule86]

35. What you left out of this rather long opinion piece

is that in April Bernie supporters used dirty tricks to take delegates that were not theirs...sending letter with the wrong time to Hillary supporters...so I guess the only 'cheating ' that concerns you is Nevada...where I have friends who tell me the Bernie people behaved very badly and were instructed to do so by Bernie high up campaign officials. I suggest you save your selective outrage and just admit you are angry that your guy lost and move on. Hillary will be the nominee. And anyone with a conscience is praying she wins. A Trump presidency would be a complete disaster for progressives in this country as the courts would be lost for a generation.

[reformist2]

42. OK, then, let's investigate *all* the fraud & corruption. Let's not sweep it under the rug.

[Demsrule86]

63. Nothing to investigate

You simply can not accept the the Bern lost.

[tonedevil]

43. You are wrong...

either mistakenly or straight up lying. This sending letter with the wrong time to Hillary supporters is untrue. A letter was sent with incorrect caucus information, but it went to both sides and did not originate from Senator Sanders or his campaign.

[Demsrule86]

65. Yeah it is true. You pulled a sleazy cruz move.

So spare me the moaning about May...you don't deserve delegates for a state you didn't win and three delegates would not help Bernie's huge delegate deficit.

https://gobling.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/what-happened-at-the-clark-county-convention/

[Demsrule86]

95. I did not go to both sides...it went to Hillary voters.

Why else would they not show up...although...no one expected the Bern to attempt delegate theft like Cruze I suppose. He lost the state.

[Xyzse]

67. I have checked on that as well.

Was it about Kramer?

She was a pro-Sanders official. Each candidate had two officials each. Rules were communication between election officials and candidates has to be shared with all candidates. Anything she sends out will be sent out to both candidate's delegates.

Clinton campaign wrote a letter accusing her of doing something illegal. I believe it was that she forwarded a message to the Sanders camp about something that She sat on the floor and refused to leave so they called the police. Many people, including some hardworking HC supporters who felt it was undemocratic, sat on the floor with her too that day.

As I look around right now, it seems that there were no charges were pressed and she didn't get in trouble for anything.

They did get her removed from her official position though.

That is what I currently remember of it.

Perhaps you can tell me more?

[reformist2]

38. That was a tour de force! We will keep speaking out, until they deal with the corruption & fraud.

They will not be sweeping it under the rug. They will not be able to get us to support the nominee until these claims of fraud are fully investigated. It's your choice, DNC. Either keep stalling and stonewalling on this, and lose half the party. Or get serious and open up the ballot boxes for auditing. We're not kidding, Maddie.

[Waiting For Everyman]

44. Thank you, and please thank your friend.

It's clear to see that convention was absurd.

That Lange person was a piece of work, and Barbie's shockingly crude behavior and lies were indefensible. They both displayed a total lack of integrity. I don't believe that's out of step with the HRC campaign in general. On the contrary, it's very consistent.

[Xyzse]

93. Oh I did.

I would not have written this otherwise.

I am surprised with Barbara Boxer however. Still, a moment of weakness such as this does not remove her past service, and I still think very highly of her.

[bettyellen]

45. "it still makes her wins look illegitimate" You bought the RW frame and the painting. God help you.

[procon]

46. Another day, another, woe-is-me vanity tirade from another disillusioned Sanders fan. nt

[redwitch]

47. Wonderful post Xyzse!

Thank you for your thoughts and your eloquence.

[oldandhappy]

48. Thank you, good post.

I am in CA and by the time I started paying attention to O'Malley he was gone. I think he got caught in the media circus around Trump and the constant noise re Trump and clinton. I am sorry. In retrospect he would have been good. We used to have a deal where media gave equal time to all. Now I want a campaign season with media limited to only one hour a day on politics!

[SCantiGOP]

49. the definition of delusion

quote from the OP:
"..not convinced that she will not hurt America that much less than Trump."

Stop and think about that for a minute. Take Trump's list of potential Supreme Court nominees, lay it next to whom Clinton would nominate, and then see if you can still make that statement.

Or, take immigration policy, abortion, gun safety, social safety net, etc etc etc

[seekthetruth]

55. Or the environment, war, mass incarceration, healthcare, income inequality ...

....and maybe, if you open your thought processes a bit and forget all of those images you're constantly shown from the mass media, maybe you'll understand the logic in that statement......

[grasswire]

57. very thoughtful letter

I just have one quibble. We do not know the sources of the phone messages to Lange. We should not assume their origin. Only a police investigation can make that determination.

Considering the level of other dirty tricks/deceptions, and the fact that Lange herself lied about violence (she said chairs were thrown, plural), we cannot take anything she says as truth.

So your friend who wrote the very good first hand account should temper that language regarding the threats. We simply don't know what happened there, but we do know that Lange will lie and will by extension set that lie in motion to the whole world.

[Xyzse]

70. Thank you.

As for the first hand account, I can't really change that, as that is not mine.

I don't know who the sources are for the phone messages are. All I know is that it is ineffective drivel that is pointless, dumb, and childish. I can not condone it, no matter which source. Though, I admit, dependent on the source the nature of my ire can change.

[passiveporcupine]

58. thank you

Look, I do not condone ineffective jackasses who harass and threaten by phone or online. They are idiots that deserve all the pilloring they receive. However, for that to be the story of the day rather than looking at the reasons for the anger and disappointment in Nevada? The fact that they barely talk about that is inexcusable.

How this goes unspoken is unbelievable to me. They cannot and will not see the mess that started the anger in Nevada. They are determined that it was all Sanders' supporters fault that there was so much "noise" there. And that's all it was...noise. It was justified noise. And they don't care. It was just one more nasty meme to use against Sanders just before a primary vote.

[tabasco]

59. Wow. Great post.

Really sums up how I feel too. I've been a loyal Democrat my entire life but the party left me behind with its continual rightward shift. The Democratic party establishment is nothing more than quislings of the plutocracy.

[Arugula Latte]

66. The sad thing is, even if we elect "Democrats," a lot of them aren't much better than Republicans.

Like good old Senator Mark Warner, who literally advised oligarchs to build walls around their communities to keep out the rioting peasants.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027844312#post40

[jwirr]

72. Thank you for an excellent definition of what happened inNV.

[passiveporcupine]

76. more about the illegitimacy of what happened in Nevada

video at link:

https://www.facebook.com/AdryennAshley/videos/10153761902337695/

I don't have a youtube link for this video, but it's one delegate's video and commentary of what is happening just prior to Lange shutting down the convention and walking off.

I found this at this web site:
http://ivn.us/2016/05/15/corroborating-evidence-clinton-camp-tampering-delegate-count/

Where they also discuss some of the crap that happened, from HEAVY.

An additional video taken at the convention was posted on Facebook to document the pandemonium that erupted toward the end of the convention when a motion was made for a recount of the delegates, was seconded, but Lange ended the convention abruptly before a full vote on the motion could be taken.

“Rachel Avery, who was at the Convention, told Heavy that before there was a chance for the motions to be voted on, Lange came on stage and voted herself into power to overrule the motions. “She made a motion, someone on her staff seconded it, called a vote final without hearing any nays,” Avery said.

“She (Lange) put in a new motion of her own, had someone second it, called for yays and nays and passed it before the nays even spoke,” he reported.”

This woman, Lange, needs to be removed from the party. She is corrupt and she stole this third tier of the Nevada process for Hillary.

Nevada has a three tier process. Hillary barely won the first tier. Bernie soundly won the second tier, but the process at this convention completely negated the second tier as if it hadn't happened. And then they steal the third tier. Way to go Hill camp.

And you wonder why people are mad? Fuck it. I'm glad I wasn't there. That would have been too much to stomach. Roberta's Rules. Lange the Dictator. This was NOT a democratic process. Is this what we can expect from a Hillary presidency?

[Xyzse]

88. Videos...

Interesting, for what they say thrown chairs, the seats looks quite orderly.

Thanks.

[BillZBubb]

79. You are far too kind to Hillary. But a very thoughtful post indeed.

[Gomez163]

80. tl:dr

[Barack_America]

84. Best OP I've read in some time.

Thank you.

[EndElectoral]

85. K&R

[jillan]

86. I don't think the DNC or the Dem party in general have any clue how much damage was caused by their

lies about what happened in Nevada.

All for a gain of 2 delegates.

When the DNC and the MSM go on a 2 day binge of insulting 10 million voters they have crossed a line they cannot cross back over.

The icing on the cake was the only violence that did occur that weekend was from a Hillary supporter and they all chose to ignore that.

Here's to down ballot races and electing true progressives like Tim Canova to reshape the future of our country.

[Xyzse]

92. That's true.

So, local races is where I will devote my time and effort during the coming months.

It would sadly have to go to the candidates directly however, and not the party campaign.

[cui bono]

90. Very good post.

I've been at the point of not being able to vote for her for a long time, but her behavior during this campaign definitely solidified that feeling beyond repair. Her supporters' behavior makes me confident it is the correct thing to do (or not do) as there is no way I will support her policies, her dirty politics or her supporters' defense of them.

It is unbelievable to me that winning is more important to all of them than democracy itself. What are they winning for then? Certainly not anything that will benefit our country or its people.

.

[Xyzse]

91. I am not there yet.

Hard as it is to say, I can still say that I will vote for her in the General Election.

Her getting a single red cent from me however, at this point is very improbable.

I have already lowered my expectations quite a bit, and I must admit, me saying that the damage she would cause might be only marginally better than the alternative may be me consoling myself to the fact that reading the tea leaves, I just can't see her winning.

[tgards79]

96. So you would rather have Donald Trump than Hillary Clinton to...

Select Supreme Court justices
Defend woman's health rights
Lead gun control battle
Lead climate change battle
On all foreign policy matters
LBGT rights
Immigration reform
And on and on...

REALLY?????

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!????

[Xyzse]

98. Please read through again. What I say is I have accepted that I don't think she can win.

I also keep saying that I will vote for her, but, with the rejoinder saying that it is getting harder and harder to say that.

I know about the issues that you mention and considered it in my calculations, so my focus is towards local races now.
I am going through the distinct possibility of a disastrous Presidency, as either Trump or Hillary has huge ramifications that will hurt the country.

Then putting all factors in together, doing a balancing act, the damage both would do will be not too far apart.
Clinton still comes ahead, but just barely.

Do you want me to explain why I have come to that juncture? There are many reasons for it, and if I do, I would have to entreat you to read it properly, look at it beyond just the automatic Trump is Bad, Hillary is less bad, as I try to look at as many factors and try to treat everyone as fairly as I can when making predictions on their job performance.

So to me, local races are important as that is what can mitigate the damage done by either Presidency.

I just do not see myself donating, defending her more than I have, or helping out her campaign in any way. That I will vote for her in the GE is already pushing it.

When the basis of her whole campaign is equivalent to:

- Her story about bullets flying in the tarmac.
- A losing strategy of "Vote for me, I am not Trump"
- Crossing two lines where 1 - capitalizes on tragedy, while misrepresenting a vote of a colleague in regards to a symbolic vote that is never going to pass any way, 2 - reveling on disenfranchisement, changing the rules arbitrarily, and then lying about violence, going off saying they are scared for their lives while egging people's anger on blowing sarcastic kisses and flipping the bird

Accusations they level are easily proved to be untrue, a fabrication or at best out of context.

This cynical campaign of hers, which is one pushing for lowered expectations, doom and gloom, has weakened her chances at attaining the Presidency.

At the moment, I am unconvinced that she is much better. Better, but not by much.

Both candidates has been on many sides of pretty much every single issue you have mentioned.
When someone here asked what can Clinton do to convince people to vote for her, the one thing I said was to try to be consistent.
I was wrong... I didn't realize that she can be consistent in pandering and lying. She will be going against a worse liar on the General Election who would be merciless and will use every single tactic that the Sanders campaign was not willing to use.

So, yes, I don't really care as much any more for the Presidential level. Local races is where the fight is for me now.

[Karma13612]

97. Most excellent. +100 eom