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Octafish

(55,745 posts)
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:03 PM Apr 2016

Pope is a BernieBro! Pope Francis called Bernie Sanders, ''Brother.''

Last edited Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:45 PM - Edit history (1)



"Querido hermano:"

Mr. Sanders, an ardent admirer of Pope Francis, called for a return to moral principles and a more just world economy, echoing the pontiff’s words and praising his leadership during a 15-minute address before the academy, a group that examines social, economic and environmental issues and is housed within a 16th-century villa inside Vatican City.

The Vermont senator flew to Rome after debating his Democratic rival Hillary Clinton in Brooklyn on Thursday night.

During his speech to the group, he also criticized the news media, which he said asks people to “accept the status quo; that a truly moral economy is beyond our reach.”

He went on to say: “Pope Francis has given the most powerful name to the predicament of modern society. He calls it the globalization of Indifference.”

SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/04/15/bernie-sanders-at-vatican-city-calls-for-a-more-moral-economy/


"The Globalization of Indifference." -- Pope Francis

Is that cool! Thanked Bernie in front of the whole planet for grokking: Greed is NOT good.

ETA: Thanks to Cheese Sandwich for pointing out the obvious to Octafish.
114 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Pope is a BernieBro! Pope Francis called Bernie Sanders, ''Brother.'' (Original Post) Octafish Apr 2016 OP
the catholic church is obscenely wealthy. its sudden concern about greed is touching nt msongs Apr 2016 #1
You aren't kidding. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #3
Greed?....try directing your drivel towards the Clinton Foundation.... Segami Apr 2016 #6
The Haitian Hotel is the tip of the iceberg. Octafish Apr 2016 #19
Boom! Just happened! northernsouthern Apr 2016 #8
They should go under the bus. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #20
Ever heard the Einstein postulation? northernsouthern Apr 2016 #24
Ooooo-k nolawarlock Apr 2016 #31
You are looking at it wrong. northernsouthern Apr 2016 #38
My whole point ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #49
Dude I am a hard core atheist. northernsouthern Apr 2016 #81
Sounds like an interesting dissertation ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #93
No, it was depressing... northernsouthern Apr 2016 #94
Something sounds off about that ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #95
Just went under the bus? one_voice Apr 2016 #66
Not by me. northernsouthern Apr 2016 #71
This is about this Pope, not the Catholic Church. Live and Learn Apr 2016 #15
They could sell a Raphael or Caravaggio or two from the Vatican Museum greatauntoftriplets Apr 2016 #25
So is the Clinton Foundation. 840high Apr 2016 #29
THAT!!!! nt Jitter65 Apr 2016 #68
Who should they sell St. Peter's to... some banking conglomerate for them to put offices in??? reformist2 Apr 2016 #90
Gives new meaning to the term Bernie Bro Cheese Sandwich Apr 2016 #2
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! Octafish Apr 2016 #5
This message was self-deleted by its author cyberpj Apr 2016 #13
LOL You just hit it out of the park! Punkingal Apr 2016 #10
+10,000 Looks like the Pope is a Bernie Bro. nt Live and Learn Apr 2016 #17
Whoever responded first is on my blocked list Ned_Devine Apr 2016 #4
You can log out and see them. I do it occasionally when I feel I can stand it. Punkingal Apr 2016 #7
Comment on the obscene wealth of the Catholic Church. Octafish Apr 2016 #11
Sorry. The struggle is real. morningfog Apr 2016 #12
I'd call that an approvazione. Gregorian Apr 2016 #9
A Jesuit as Pope... Octafish Apr 2016 #102
This has more spin than a 78rpm record nolawarlock Apr 2016 #14
I agree CorkySt.Clair Apr 2016 #27
I think we're gonna need a bigger nose n/t nolawarlock Apr 2016 #32
And? Land of Enchantment Apr 2016 #40
Cool. CorkySt.Clair Apr 2016 #43
Do you know your avatar is offensive? Land of Enchantment Apr 2016 #61
Here....read this. Land of Enchantment Apr 2016 #62
3 doesn't cover this one BainsBane Apr 2016 #96
Boy these HRC bots can't stand this can they? DebbieCDC Apr 2016 #16
they're already going all Jack Chick: maybe they'll warm up "The Da Vinci Code" at rallies XD MisterP Apr 2016 #22
Nah, not the HRC bots ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #23
Hating on Catholics, hating on Jews. Making America hate again. =nt= chascarrillo Apr 2016 #73
Clintons got $229 million in a short space of time: amborin Apr 2016 #18
Too bad it's not addressed to Bernie, though. OOOPS! IamMab Apr 2016 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author cyberpj Apr 2016 #36
I wonder why? Dragonfli Apr 2016 #41
This message was self-deleted by its author cyberpj Apr 2016 #45
So you have seen a PAC paid “digital media specialist” before! Dragonfli Apr 2016 #55
Must be a new hire. Old hats know they get 5 cents more for OPs. HooptieWagon Apr 2016 #79
Those pentacles in your posting are disturbing me... DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #56
That's pretty offensive. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #69
Well please enlighten me regarding the pentacles in your postings. DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #75
They aren't in my postings ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #86
Well I have been enlightened by you and others. DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #88
No, thank YOU nolawarlock Apr 2016 #91
A symbol as meaningful to some as a cross, a six pointed star and other symbols is NOT Dragonfli Apr 2016 #77
Well I apologize if you are offended... DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #80
It is a symbol of a tradition and a religion and is quite meaningfull Dragonfli Apr 2016 #82
Well thank you... DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #84
I was only addressing what you said about the symbol. IMO that poster is not even worth your time Dragonfli Apr 2016 #85
Okay and I was simply addressing someone attacking the church. DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #87
The issue of the Vatican visit is a bit sensitive because it should be a positive story for everyone Dragonfli Apr 2016 #92
This message was self-deleted by its author Gomez163 Apr 2016 #26
On a related note Octafish, Have you seen this level of Catholic bashing since Kennedy ran? Dragonfli Apr 2016 #28
It's not bashing to point out the obvious ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #33
Points that were all used against Kennedy, this form of bigotry has changed little over the years Dragonfli Apr 2016 #37
False charges? nolawarlock Apr 2016 #47
You do understand the material that was discussed, and you also realize that his views belong. Dragonfli Apr 2016 #50
Huh? nolawarlock Apr 2016 #53
Huh? right back at you, the topics discussed were very important ones, and those that consider them Dragonfli Apr 2016 #58
Well they are getting a two-for with this one. TM99 Apr 2016 #34
Unfortunately bigots are almost always blind to the form of bigotry they spread. The few that are Dragonfli Apr 2016 #39
Well as you know history has shown us TM99 Apr 2016 #42
Point well made, the "good German" type bigots are more dangerous than I initially gave them credit Dragonfli Apr 2016 #44
No, don't take my additions to your fine post TM99 Apr 2016 #46
Ah, picture number three ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #48
WASPS that hated Catholics as much then as they do now, I put that in on purpose. /nt Dragonfli Apr 2016 #52
Well, I am not a Wasp. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #57
I never called you a WASP, I don't know where you pulled that out of (I thought you atheist) not Dragonfli Apr 2016 #59
I don't disagree with you nolawarlock Apr 2016 #67
I think we just misunderstood each other, I nave been to many neo-pagan festiviles Dragonfli Apr 2016 #70
Times like these get heated. nolawarlock Apr 2016 #76
And speaking of bigotry ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #72
I missed that, the word asshole comes to mind, hell I even wear a pentacle in my sigline /nt Dragonfli Apr 2016 #74
At least ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #89
I don't remember the 1960 campaign. I have studied the history... Octafish Apr 2016 #110
... SidDithers Apr 2016 #30
+1 tammywammy Apr 2016 #60
And still ... nolawarlock Apr 2016 #35
I guess someone has decided Bernie BainsBane Apr 2016 #97
Been looking for a GOOD image of this nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #51
Camp Sanders is STILL lying about the Pope sending a letter to Sanders himself? Tarc Apr 2016 #54
Denial is not just a river in Africa Gothmog Apr 2016 #64
Like the pope would interfere in our elections BainsBane Apr 2016 #98
That note was not addressed to Sanders Gothmog Apr 2016 #63
Yes, that is so cool! Thanks for posting this, Octafish! amborin Apr 2016 #65
Papa Frank feelin' the Bern! HooptieWagon Apr 2016 #78
Love bernie- but you read it wrong Marrah_G Apr 2016 #83
He knows that BainsBane Apr 2016 #99
Thank you, Marrah_G! The Brother addressed the sisters and brothers... Octafish Apr 2016 #100
It was indeed a great honor Marrah_G Apr 2016 #111
Camp Pinocchio doesn't care itsrobert Apr 2016 #104
That is low, even coming from you, itsrobert. Octafish Apr 2016 #108
Off to ignore you go Marrah_G Apr 2016 #112
Pope is a con man rjsquirrel Apr 2016 #101
is that the same POPE the CLINTON FOUNDATION invited? islandmkl Apr 2016 #103
Matches nicely your thoughts on Legal Schnauzer and Don Siegelman. Octafish Apr 2016 #105
Yes. They too rjsquirrel Apr 2016 #106
Such wit reminds of the NAZIs who laughed. Octafish Apr 2016 #109
kick kgnu_fan Apr 2016 #107
or not Maru Kitteh Apr 2016 #113
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Apr 2016 #114

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
19. The Haitian Hotel is the tip of the iceberg.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:24 PM
Apr 2016
Clinton Foundation raked in cash from right-wing regimes, corporations

By Tom Hall
World Socialist Web Site, 28 February 2015

Several press reports last week highlight details of the major donors to the Bill, Hillary and Chelsea Clinton Foundation, including right-wing Persian Gulf monarchies, big defense contractors, and an array of corporations and governments seeking influence with the US political establishment—and potentially in the next White House.

Founded in 2001 after the end of Bill Clinton’s second term as president, the Foundation has raised and distributed huge amounts of money, reaching nearly $2 billion. After a brief drop in fundraising coinciding with Hillary Clinton’s term as secretary of state from 2009 to 2013, when most foreign donations were discouraged because of conflict-of-interest concerns, donations jumped $100 million in 2013, reaching $262 million.

The list of the Foundation’s largest donors, available on the Foundation’s website, is a virtual who’s who of the super-rich and major corporations. The largest donors, having given over $25 million since 2001, include the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, well known for its leading role in the dismantling of public education, Chicago multimillionaire and top Democratic Party donor Fred Eychaner, and, strangely, the Dutch national lottery.

Major corporations appear in spades in the list of 168 individuals and organizations that have given more than $1 million. Defense contractors such as Boeing and Booz Allen Hamilton, both gave between $1 and $5 million, joined by Barclays, Goldman Sachs, and the American Federation of Teachers.

The reactionary Persian Gulf monarchies have poured tens of millions into the Clinton Foundation, including Saudi Arabia ($10 to $25 million), Kuwait, ($5 to $10 million), Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates ($1 to $5 million). In addition, several groups and individuals close to the Saudi government have also made tens of millions in contributions.

CONTINUED...

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/02/28/clin-f28.html


Maybe they spread it out over a few months or buried it in pieces along the bottom of page A-14, but have you seen any of that in The Washington Post or The New York Times, Segami? I know it's not on ABCNNBCBSFauxNews Notell-6 at all.
 

northernsouthern

(1,511 posts)
8. Boom! Just happened!
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:14 PM
Apr 2016
the catholic church is obscenely wealthy


And the Catholic church just went under the bus, too bad the Pope is just starting to open a new chapter with the church and is trying to fight bigotry in it, if he had only had spent money on the HRC campaign. I am still waiting for some one on here to insult all Catholics of the pope. It is just a matter of time.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
20. They should go under the bus.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:25 PM
Apr 2016

Hypocritical as I think Bernie is for choosing one kind of wealthy oppressor over another, the Church is worse here because they have 2,000 years of experience to know better than to meddle in an election like this. It's disgusting. The wealthy may have no right to suppress the will of the voter but neither does the Church, and devotion is as powerful a tool of manipulation as greed, if not more so.

 

northernsouthern

(1,511 posts)
24. Ever heard the Einstein postulation?
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:31 PM
Apr 2016

(B+W)-C=0
Where C = (B+W)
B=Baby
W=Bathwater

So he theorized if you toss them both together your net gain is 0.

He was really smart.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
31. Ooooo-k
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:53 PM
Apr 2016

I am not saying that we should simply not engage with the Church. There are probably a billion Catholics in the world. What I'm saying is, don't talk about the influence of corporations in politics and then justify influence by an institution as powerful and influential as any corporation. And for the Church itself to do this is just wrong. I'm not jealous that they didn't invite Hillary. I would have been just as irritated if they'd invited her and not Bernie, or both of them, or Trump, or whoever was running. It's just plain bad form.

 

northernsouthern

(1,511 posts)
38. You are looking at it wrong.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:18 PM
Apr 2016

I know very well the evils of the church, but the US and corporations are not innocent either. The church turned a blind eye to the Nazis and took in wealth from them, but the US created eugenics, we sent people back over to die. The fact the church has the most liberal pope I have ever seen, I will not toss it out. The church like the US has vast reach, given a chance it could do great things. Compare that church to the type in the US and in Nigeria where they feed off the poor, spread hate, and don't even try to do things. Watch the Story of Nai, the part with the missionary there is quite disturbing but also funny.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
49. My whole point ...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:45 PM
Apr 2016

is that *none* of these groups are innocent.

And as for the Pope, how are his actual positions that much different than his immediate predecessor? Sure, his policies are a little different in the sense that he places more value on the social ill of poverty than what he clearly believes are also the social ills of gay marriage and abortion. But the positions are pretty much the same.

But even were he every bit the saint some are making him out to be, he is but a very, very tiny notch in a very, very long belt. Who's to say we don't embrace the Church's influence on the electorate, try to rationalize that manipulation for some supposed "greater good" is any more free than manipulation for a greater bad, and then we get a successor whose interpretation of doctrine is more oriented to oppression?

With all respect, your argument sounds to me as though you think that manipulating the will of the voter is ok if it's for their own good. But how is that freedom?

 

northernsouthern

(1,511 posts)
81. Dude I am a hard core atheist.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:16 PM
Apr 2016

I have been one since I was born, I grew up in the south where I was constantly proselytized by my school staff and students. I had books thrown away and spit on. I have deeply religious relatives, and I am no fan of the history of the church and its evils. I don't think there was a historical Jesus based on all of the latest studies, and I think many religions need to be completely overhauled. I wrote a well over 50 page dissertation (not for a doctorate) on the inherit viral memes in the three major Judaic religions, and how if they were not fixed the problems that could result would be devastating. For the report I read and took notes of the texts of these religions for every page, went through copious historical texts on events...then 911 occurred, I realized I was only 1/9th through my paper, I was tired of reading the same hateful lines over and over, and then typing them up. I had no wish to write 400 more pages on the subject and I stopped.

I know the horrors of the church, but you are wrong about his view on gay marriage, as far as I understand it he has actually said nothing about it. That is steps anything they have done before. He could actually do good. He visited his friend that is openly gay on his last visit and when he found out about Lady Hypocrisy visit to him he laid the hurt down on the people that set it up.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
93. Sounds like an interesting dissertation ...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:52 PM
Apr 2016

I'm not an atheist, but I can see the danger of these faiths but I can also see the beauty. They have the capacity for both because people can have the capacity for both. The danger of devotion can poison even the atheistic regimes. Stalin comes to mind. When I first encountered a socialist group that had set up a table in the lobby at the university I attended many years ago, I remember liking some of the ideas but thinking, "these people are like a religion, with tenets and absolutes, and immutable ideals." But, we can also see that some of those principles can bring hope to people who don't have it, much like the big three religions can and have.

As for Francis' view on gay marriage, it hasn't been exactly blunt, but it's there:

------------- snip begin ---------------------------
In anticipation of Thursday’s debate, the pontiff told Vatican Judges “there can be no confusion between the family God wants and any other type of union”.

“The family, founded on indissoluble matrimony that unites and allows procreation, is part of God’s dream and that of his Church for the salvation of humanity,” he said on Friday.
-------------- snip end -------------------------
Source: http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/01/pope-francis-same-sex-marriage-is-not-the-family-god-wants/

 

northernsouthern

(1,511 posts)
94. No, it was depressing...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 11:43 PM
Apr 2016

Did you know in the dark-ages there where two towns in German that killed all but two females for being witches, or in the old testament there are two identical stories of people going in to town to have the locals want to know them a biblical male to male way. Both times they tossed out a woman or two as negotiation tactic. In the second version she slowly dies over night because the people inside don't care? Did you know that Noah is known by his son in a biblical way after getting drunk, his descendants are the Canaanites and Sodomites or something (there is a tie in to it later)? Killing is not outlawed int he old testament in the commandments. They are not good when you realize you are reading tax returns and policies from several thousand years back. Don't get me started on the next books. I stopped because it was too dark. Also I never said I wanted the religions removed, just they needed reformation to get rid of or explain the parts like in the new testament about drowning non-believers, women not being aloud to teach, or the infidel mentions once every other page in the bible reboot. I think religion can give people something to believe in and hold on to (so can humanism, nihilism or any thing).
But also becarful of...

I'm not an atheist, but I can see the danger of these faiths but I can also see the beauty. They have the capacity for both because people can have the capacity for both. The danger of devotion can poison even the atheistic regimes. Stalin comes to mind. When I first encountered a socialist group that had set up a table in the lobby at the university I attended many years ago, I remember liking some of the ideas but thinking, "these people are like a religion, with tenets and absolutes, and immutable ideals." But, we can also see that some of those principles can bring hope to people who don't have it, much like the big three religions can and have.


Atheism by its definition can't be used that way, it is a non-belief. You can be an atheist and a humanist. As for Stalin, he went to spent five years in a Greek Orthodox seminary, and white he did close down churches it was out of wanting power and control, he was becoming a god in a sense. He also suffered from paranoia or some sort of disorder as I recall (he started killing everyone off at the end).

A good read that touches on this and Hitler and Pol is...
https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot-in-memory-of-christopher-hitchens/

Also not in that is a story that Hitler is not half Jewish but the product of two to three levels of incest, it surfaced when the half Jewish story appeared, and the went to disprove it...and then they saw that and decided even in Nazi Germany it was better to be mixed than let's call it pure-breed?

But for the Pope you may want to read this article...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/pope-francis-gay-marriage_b_8194780.html

Although it does not seem to address the more recent wording. It sound like there it had to do with Italy itself taking the vote, so not sure if he bowed to internal pressure or if he is just saying it now. I am sure if Italy passes the laws we may get a bit more from him. Either way only once from him is still the best record as of yet. Hopefully not again.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
95. Something sounds off about that ...
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 12:36 AM
Apr 2016

Not only does the article I linked contain the quote from the Pope, “there can be no confusion between the family God wants and any other type of union”, but Signorile doesn't even address that quote, much less say it was false. Maybe it came from something else Francis said? Because that strong line was attributed to Francis and Signorile didn't even address it, I have to wonder if he doesn't have some agenda of his own but I'm certainly willing to take a skeptical wait and see.

I never argued that Hitler was an atheist. His religious views are perhaps the most complex out of all the characters out there, with Christianity mixed into Paganism and even the occult.

As for Stalin, he does seem to have been a confirmed atheist and even atheists can draw inspiration from the writings of religious leaders. It's been known to happen. Frankly, I could barely skim past the statement in that article that "Christians commonly employ this fallacy to shield their egos from the harsh reality of the brutality of their own religion," since I am most certainly not part of any of those groups and my commentary on so-called atheist atrocities has nothing to do with that. I am saying that any ideology, religious or otherwise, can lead to violence and force. Many of the world religions, while certainly responsible of a myriad of atrocities, are not alone. Any movement or ideology that involves people will be capable of atrocity because people have a tendency to want to use force to instill what they believe in.

Do you honestly believe that no non-religious, atheist-oriented ideology can lead to the kind of ideological devotion that inspires hatred and atrocity? I think this touches on the criticism of those who believe that economic justice will solve the injustices of racism, sexism, homophobia and other xenophobias. It will not because obsession with the inferiority of a race or gender does not go away just because someone had food on their table. We all have the capacity as people to take our ideas too far. This primary race, and the supporters of every candidate in it, has proven that, not with atrocities so far, but certainly some terrible behavior.

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
66. Just went under the bus?
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:46 PM
Apr 2016

you might want to do a search a search of the Pope and DU. He was yanked out dusted off and propped up for this. The Pope & the Catholic Church have longed been under that bus.

 

northernsouthern

(1,511 posts)
71. Not by me.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:00 PM
Apr 2016

Why do people not like the new pope? He is the most liberal in history. He is turning it around. He even made Boehner cry, and that is no easy task!


greatauntoftriplets

(175,786 posts)
25. They could sell a Raphael or Caravaggio or two from the Vatican Museum
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:31 PM
Apr 2016

and feed a few hundred thousand people.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
90. Who should they sell St. Peter's to... some banking conglomerate for them to put offices in???
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:45 PM
Apr 2016

This notion that the "wealthy" church should sell off its properties is absurd.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
5. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:11 PM
Apr 2016

¡Exactamente, chezito!

¡Un millón de gracias!

Response to Octafish (Reply #5)

 

Ned_Devine

(3,146 posts)
4. Whoever responded first is on my blocked list
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:10 PM
Apr 2016

Can someone enlighten me as to what kind of genius thing this person posted? Oh, and the third poster is also on my list apparently. This must have hit a nerve

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
11. Comment on the obscene wealth of the Catholic Church.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:15 PM
Apr 2016

I was mighty impressed when the Pope put a leash on the Vatican's global finances.

Reason why from the great DUer malaise.



Can Pope Francis clean up God’s bank?

by Paul Vallely
The Guardian, 13 Aug. 2015

EXCERPT...

At 6.30 on the morning of 28 June 2013 – just three months into the reign of Pope Francis – officials of the Guardia di Finanza, the Italian law enforcement agency for financial crime, pulled up in front of a rectory in Palidoro, a quiet seaside town west of Rome. When they rang the bell, the cleric who came sleepily to the door was informed that he was under arrest. A few hours later, wearing a well-cut grey suit, Monsignor Nunzio Scarano was shown into a cell in the Regina Coeli, Rome’s most overcrowded prison.

Scarano, a suave, handsome priest known for his extravagant lifestyle (his nickname among other priests was Monsignor Cinquecento, My Lord Five Hundred, because of his habit of carrying only €500 banknotes), was head of accounting at the Amministrazione del Patrimonio della Sede Apostolica (APSA) – the body that then managed the Vatican’s property holdings and controlled its purchasing and personnel departments. His arrest made front-page news. He was accused of trying to smuggle €20m on a private plane across the border from Switzerland in a money-laundering conspiracy involving the Vatican bank, an agent of Italy’s secret services and an Italian broker under suspicion for running a Ponzi scheme.

Doubts about Scarano had first been aroused six months earlier, when he had reported a burglary at his apartment in the city of Salerno, south of Naples. Paintings from his art collection had been stolen, he claimed. When the police arrived at the 17-room apartment on Via Romualdo Guarna, in one of the city’s wealthiest neighbourhoods, they were startled by its opulence. It was furnished with valuable antiques, and a spectacular display of art lined the walls in hallways divided by Romanesque columns. Scarano’s collection included a painting attributed to Chagall. Police reports estimated the missing artworks were worth €6m.

But the Scarano scandal had much wider implications. Investigators suspected that he had been operating APSA as a “parallel bank”, through which Italian VIPs could avoid taxes and the mafia launder the profits of illegal activity. Scarano denied it all but, just a few days after his arrest, two of the Vatican bank’s three top officials suddenly quit their jobs.

CONTINUED...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/13/can-pope-francis-clean-up-gods-bank



Remember, Pope Francis told the Church to use their property in service of the community, or else pay taxes.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
9. I'd call that an approvazione.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:14 PM
Apr 2016

I'm just grateful for this last year. Has it really been a year? That's more hope than I've had in much of my life.

"globalization of Indifference." I read the speech earlier, and that stuck out.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
102. A Jesuit as Pope...
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:31 AM
Apr 2016

Three years, already. Unbelievable how time flies.

At first, I couldn't believe the news. Upon learning about his role in Argentina during the right wing putsch, I had doubts. From my own life story, I know people can change for the better, so I dropped my hypocrisy long enough to give him a chance.

Seeing him in action -- clearing out the child abusers and cover-up artistes and cleaning up the Vatican bank -- I felt real hope for our planet's future in a way I had not felt in decades.

Seeing him put the Church on notice about their mission to serve humanity convinced me he is the right Bishop of Rome for the job.

Pope Francis is 79. Guy gets stronger and smarter and more accomplished every day. We are so fortunate, Gregorian!

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
14. This has more spin than a 78rpm record
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:17 PM
Apr 2016

If you read the article, it's clear that the letter was delivered and addressed to Monseignor Sorondo. "Hermano" is singular. He's speaking to Sorondo and asking his "brother" to pass on a message to participants expressing his regret that he couldn't be there, but at no time does he call any of the participants brother or sister.

And as for him not being there and sending that kinda letter, god, is he ever weeping with regret ... not. I doubt he ever intended to go from the tone of that letter.

This all reminds me of a lyric from the musical Evita ...

"More bad news from Rome; she met with the Pope
She only got a rosary, a kindly word"

"I wouldn't say the Holy Father gave her the bird
But papal decorations, never a hope"

Only Bernie got neither a meeting, a rosary, or even a kindly word other than the obligatory graciousness extended through Monsignor Sorondo.

 

CorkySt.Clair

(1,507 posts)
43. Cool.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:32 PM
Apr 2016

Looks like you pulled it off The Blaze, but that's none of my business.

Again, the note wasn't addressed specifically to Bernie.

Land of Enchantment

(1,217 posts)
61. Do you know your avatar is offensive?
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:23 PM
Apr 2016

Nadine did an excellent post on the origins and history of Mary's image and how it has been desecrated by some fool who has Photo Shop.


nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
23. Nah, not the HRC bots ...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:30 PM
Apr 2016

The grammar police are especially concerned, since "Queried hermano:" is clearly singular and is at the header of a letter delivered and addressed to Monsignor Sorondo, so if there's anything we can't stand, it's that kinda misinterpretation.

Response to IamMab (Reply #21)

Response to Dragonfli (Reply #41)

 

DemocracyDirect

(708 posts)
56. Those pentacles in your posting are disturbing me...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:53 PM
Apr 2016

... no wonder you are so concerned about Bernie at the Vatican.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
69. That's pretty offensive.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:57 PM
Apr 2016

Would you say that if he had the symbols of another religion as his or her avatar?

One can criticize the institution of the Vatican and the Church without criticizing Catholics. I was raised Catholic and I have no issue with Catholics. I have an issue with the institution trying to game an election.

This primary season really has become the ugliest thing I've seen in my 46 years and nobody is innocent. Trump hasn't just moved the needle of bigotry, he's moved the entire spectrum. I think many supporters of both Democratic candidates should be outright ashamed of themselves. I cannot believe you think this is ok.

 

DemocracyDirect

(708 posts)
75. Well please enlighten me regarding the pentacles in your postings.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:05 PM
Apr 2016

I'm interested in all religions and their symbol-ogy.

What is their meaning to you?

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
86. They aren't in my postings ...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:41 PM
Apr 2016

They're in IAmMab's postings, but if you insulted a star of david or a cross in someone's avatar, I'd say the same thing to you. However, in this case, I am going to defend her because, to many people who use it, it is a sacred image that represents the human body encircled by the divinity of light, and to still others, it is the five elements of Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit. It is in no way an anti-Christian or anti-Catholic symbol. It is not an anti-anything symbol. It is, in fact, one of the most pro-humanity symbols there is.

I respect that it is also a symbol that has been painted with fair, in part, mind you, by the institution of the Church. So it is not our bigotry to recognize the pain caused to those who wore that symbol by that institution, but rather it is our determination to say that this kind of thing must never happen again. And it is why that, yes, I am concerned with the Vatican involving itself in politics in this way. It has almost never ended well.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
91. No, thank YOU
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:45 PM
Apr 2016

It takes a strong person to realize that they might have overstepped. That is the true measure of a person and it means a lot so thank you.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
77. A symbol as meaningful to some as a cross, a six pointed star and other symbols is NOT
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:12 PM
Apr 2016

cool to insult in such a way! You are so far out of line, the line is beyond your field of vision, grow up and leave your bigotry behind as the childish (yet destructive) thing it is.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
82. It is a symbol of a tradition and a religion and is quite meaningfull
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:20 PM
Apr 2016

The pentagram symbolizes the union of the five basic elements . This concept was popularized in the 19th century. Spirit is ascribed to the uppermost point, with the implication that Spirit surmounts the physical elements. When the pentagram is point down, the physical world supplants the Spirit as supreme, hence its association with Satanism which revels in humanity’s material existence.
This hierarchy of elements was very common among ceremonial magicians. However, Wiccans often see the elements as equal.


ETA More from an historical view as well as it's importance in certain religions.

Many religions, even those involving a variety of symbols, hold one above all others to represent the religion. For Jews it is the star of David. For Christians it is the cross, although they employ dozens of variations of the basic design. For Wiccans, it is the pentagram.

Pentagram of the Greek Pythagoreans, who saw it as reflecting perfect proportions and harmony with itself.
The pentagram has existed for thousands of years through a variety of cultures. They have a great many different meanings, almost always positive ones.

As a symbol of our religion, the pentagram is depicted point-up. Many Wiccans will rabidly insist it is only used in this orientation, thus distancing ourselves from Satanists, who commonly identify themselves was a point-down pentagram. However, there are, in fact, some Wiccans (and witches) who use pentagrams oriented in both directions, representing a variety of different meanings.

The Pentagram of the Greek Pythagoreans, who saw it as reflecting perfect proportions and harmony with itself.


 

DemocracyDirect

(708 posts)
84. Well thank you...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:26 PM
Apr 2016

Now I understand the symbol. And I support you.

However I've seen the Pope in person a few times and he addresses everyone as brother and sisters.

So the original post I commented on was a disingenuous comment that was not understanding the Catholic faith at all.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
85. I was only addressing what you said about the symbol. IMO that poster is not even worth your time
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:31 PM
Apr 2016

I dislike him/her myself because he/she appears to be a reverse garbage disposal machine.

 

DemocracyDirect

(708 posts)
87. Okay and I was simply addressing someone attacking the church.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:41 PM
Apr 2016

It helps to have a discussion if something is said or done that seems offensive...

... but in the case of the symbol mistakenly so.

I thought the symbol was anti-catholic and now I have learned better.

The issue of the Vatican visit is a bit sensitive because it should be a positive story for everyone.

If anybody lost anything its Senator Sanders for taking a day off the campaign trail. But he felt passionately enough to do it for everyone's benefit.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
92. The issue of the Vatican visit is a bit sensitive because it should be a positive story for everyone
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:46 PM
Apr 2016

I agree whole heartily! and have argued the same points.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511747020#post50

Response to Octafish (Original post)

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
28. On a related note Octafish, Have you seen this level of Catholic bashing since Kennedy ran?
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:36 PM
Apr 2016

I still remember all the WASPS lining up to exclaim loudly to anyone that would listen how if we elected a Catholic President the Pope would be running the country.

Bernie Sanders isn't even a Catholic and because he attended a conference at the Vatican regarding the need for a moral economy, some are practically calling for Catholics to be hung in the town square.

I can't wait for the Similar ranting in the streets for anyone who will listen that if a Jew is elected President Israel will be running the country (they are already claiming that on Clinton sites not to be named).

So far here only two posters have gone full on without dog whistles how they hate the Jews "in kind" (neither one tombstoned for it) because they believe Jews hate them for some unfathomable reason, luckily the majority of antisemitism so far has been largely only dog whistled out, but I do worry as time goes on how far the Catholic and Jew bashing will progress.

The weird part of this is I am neither a Jew nor a Catholic and I am actually offended by it all.

I am if anything a weird mix of contemplative Taoist/agnostic/Buddhist/Wiccan Humanist if I could even be labelled at all.

I imagine few in the party would vote for Kennedy these days based on the Catholic bashing thrown around of late, at least it brings back some Kennedy memories with it in my mind that are not negative memories like the aforementioned ones.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
33. It's not bashing to point out the obvious ...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:06 PM
Apr 2016

1. It's wrong for the Church to meddle in an election like this. It hasn't gone well before.

2. It's hypocritical for Bernie take the stamp of approval and the influence it provides from one of the most wealthy and powerful organizations on earth while bemoaning the influence of wealth and power on politics.

3. Kennedy has nothing to do with this. I see nothing wrong with a Catholic running for president. What I see as wrong is them using their influence to game an election. Mind you, I don't think the Pope appreciated this either, which is why he essentially said, so long, and thanks for all the fish.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
37. Points that were all used against Kennedy, this form of bigotry has changed little over the years
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:18 PM
Apr 2016

They are all false charges by the way, but those not the target of the brand of bigotry they prefer are often blind to it, which explains both white privilege and freedom of religion bigots.

Got any pamphlets to hand out? They were somewhat effective in some places during Jack Kennedy's day in this particular spotlight, maybe they will help you sow some more division for the greater good, no.

Kennedy has everything to do with this because this behavior parallels similar behavior used against him and puts it in an historical context. This may surprise you, but many younger people are not aware that such was used against Kennedy and I think they should know when history repeats.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
47. False charges?
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:38 PM
Apr 2016

I think the Vatican inviting one out of a string of candidates in a heated election is absolutely gaming the system and in no way false. If you want to refer to that as bigotry, that is your choice. I am happy to put you on ignore.

I am neither young, nor unaware of what went on back then, and my education was in politics, but this isn't a case of a president who happens to be Catholic. This is a case of a person being invited to a politically charged meeting on social economics in the midst of an election.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
50. You do understand the material that was discussed, and you also realize that his views belong.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:45 PM
Apr 2016

It was not about politics, but rather a shared interest in causes Sanders has been known for, for over 30 years now.

Were it about politics, either Pope Francis would have posed with him, or for that matter, Sanders would not even have attended as he could have fit 6 Yuuuge rallies in NY during his time away.

The fact that you accuse the Pope of being a political puppet, only proves you are a (now fully out of the closet) full on board Catholic basher bigot.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
53. Huh?
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:49 PM
Apr 2016

I'm talking about the Pope being roped into this via a representative within his own Church. What does that have to do with bigotry? No institution, religious or otherwise, should be free from criticism. None of us are above reproach.

There is absolutely politics involved in this sort of conference, especially when it involves the presence of political leaders. Inviting heads of state is not the same as inviting one of many candidates for a head of state. I don't think it was a good idea. I think it sets a bad precedent, and if you want to label that bigotry, that is on you.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
58. Huh? right back at you, the topics discussed were very important ones, and those that consider them
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:05 PM
Apr 2016

important were invited.

I know that Doug Coe would have liked to be given equal time to present an opposing view, but you are looking in the wrong place if you are concerned about religious leaders getting involved in politics (below you I posted the best place to hunt for that), it was not a conference to use political figures to gain influence, it was about the views regarding moral economics, climate issues and the idolatry of money.



[font size='3' color="red"]Hillary Clinton's religion is the cult named "The Family" And her Pope is Doug Coe[/font]


Sen. Hillary Clinton has been involved with the Family since 1993 when, as first lady, she joined a White House prayer circle for political wives. Clinton has also sought spiritual counseling from the current head of the Family, Doug Coe. Sharlet argues that Clinton's longtime association with the Family has helped her forge working relationships with powerful religious conservatives such as Family member and anti-abortion crusader Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas.

The Family nurtures the next generation of prayer warriors in suburban dormitories. Sharlet spent nearly a month living at Ivanwald, a dormitory in Virginia where sons of the Family are sent to immerse themselves in Jesus and clean the toilets of congressmen and senators.

The Family also runs a house on C Street in Washington, D.C. The C Street Center has housed a number of federal legislators, including Sen. John Ensign of Nevada. Residents allege that the center is just a cheap place to live, but as an Ivanwald brother, Sharlet saw firsthand that the center is a religious community. As far as the IRS is concerned, the C Street Center is a church.

Members will tell you that the Family is just a group of friends. As Sharlet discovered, 600 boxes of documents at the Billy Graham Center Archives tell a different story.

AlterNet writer Lindsay Beyerstein recently sat down with Jeff Sharlet at a Brooklyn coffee shop to discuss the Family.

Lindsay Beyerstein What is the Family?

Jeff Sharlet: It's an international network of evangelical activists in government, military and business. The Family is dedicated to this idea that Christianity has gotten it all wrong for two thousand years by focusing on the poor, the suffering and the weak.

The Family says that instead, what Christians should do is minister to the up-and-out -- as opposed to the down-and-out -- to those that are already powerful. Because if they can win those people for Christ, they win the whole deal. That's what this network is dedicated to. It includes nonprofit organizations, it includes think tanks, it includes various ministries.

Lindsay Beyerstein: Where did they get the idea that they should be ministering to the up-and-out? There doesn't seem to be a lot basis in Christianity for that view.

Jeff Sharlet: Two places. The founder of the Family, Abraham Vereide, would describe it as his "new revelation" that came to him in the middle of the night, very literally: in a vision from God in 1935 in response to the Great Depression and, more particularly, to a series of very successful labor strikes that he saw as challenging God's sovereignty. So, God comes and gives him this new revelation to say, "This is what I really meant"...


More
 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
34. Well they are getting a two-for with this one.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:06 PM
Apr 2016

They can bash the Jew and the Catholics.

Bigotry is just bigotry. And they are frothing at the mouth with it today!

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
39. Unfortunately bigots are almost always blind to the form of bigotry they spread. The few that are
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:24 PM
Apr 2016

not blind to their bigotry tend to be physically dangerous and have been known to lynch or physically harm people. Luckily on the Democratic side we are largely dealing with the ones that don't even realize what they are doing is wrong.

Some Trump followers on the other hand fall into the later category and well, you know what potential lies down that road.









 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
42. Well as you know history has shown us
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:30 PM
Apr 2016

that yes, while the 'brownshirts' are terrifying, what allows them to exist and take power are the 'good Germans'. If you tolerate a little bigotry, then it is far too easy to tolerate a lot of violent bigotry in the end.

My grandfather's family escaped Russia during the revolution. He rarely talked about it but there were hushed words about a Rabbi cousin and a monk older brother who did not make it out. No one knows exactly what happened to them but obviously they were killed. The sadness and anger in his eyes whenever he did speak of the 'old country' were there until his last breath.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
44. Point well made, the "good German" type bigots are more dangerous than I initially gave them credit
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:34 PM
Apr 2016

Thank you for pointing out an axiom I should have seen without your assistance. (facepalm against myself)

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
46. No, don't take my additions to your fine post
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:38 PM
Apr 2016

as any sort of correction or criticism.

I have an undergraduate history degree and have lived in Germany three different times in my life. I love the country, its people, and its history (dark & light).

It is always easy to see evil on public display. It is always so much harder to see evil hidden from view that allows us to just let an innocent suffer or die because we are too afraid to act ourselves.

Being a psychologist and a vet, I have seen these horrors up close and personal.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
48. Ah, picture number three ...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:40 PM
Apr 2016

... Witch executions ... of the Puritan variety from what I can see from the image, but who started those executions?

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
57. Well, I am not a Wasp.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:03 PM
Apr 2016

I am far more ethnic than anything else and all of those ethnicities are Catholic. I was raised Catholic in a classic New England Catholic Democrat family. Like the rest of my family, I know where political policies and positions are my own to have, and so most of us are pro-choice, pro-gay, and take a number of positions that even the church-goers among us knew were the product of our consciences. I am no longer Catholic, nor am I Christian, but there are many, many things I respect about the Church spiritually speaking. This kind of political power play, however, is not one of them because it preys on those who don't have the strength of character to forge their own destiny or to own their own vote.

You make a lot of assumptions about me. You have no idea what my motivations are outside of what I say they are and I have stated, without fail, that I think this is hypocrisy on Bernie's part and wrong of the Church to set a precedent for meddling in politics like this. I never liked it with the Religious Right and I don't like it now.

And for the record, not only is the third image you posted titled, "Witch_D.jpg," implying that these were in fact Witch hangings and not Catholic hangings. I reverse searched the image and it has been referred to both as an image of the Salem Witch Trials of 1692, and of the Pendle Witch Trials (England, 1612 - 1634). So, it rather made my point for me. I don't want religion ruling politics no matter the religion. We've seen how wrong that could go and it isn't bigotry to say so.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
59. I never called you a WASP, I don't know where you pulled that out of (I thought you atheist) not
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:16 PM
Apr 2016

that that would have bothered me.

You really need to read my posts in context. I am a jumble of eastern thought, ancient Celtic religions that are merely put back together again with few hints and little full knowledge (neo-pagan) and am completely agnostic in that mish mash of what I consider a symbolic contemplative view of ethics. Not that that matters ether.

I did attend a few Catholic schools and have been helped quite often in my poverty by Catholic Charities so I have a soft spot for the part of the Catholic church that gives a shit about the poor.

I am actually pleased the church now actually has a Pontiff that gives a shit about the poor. However bigotry is just plain wrong in my view no matter the target. That includes Catholic Bashing and antisemitism.

So sue me for not liking it.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
67. I don't disagree with you
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:49 PM
Apr 2016

I don't think it is correct to simply dislike the Catholic Church simply for existing, nor do I think all Catholics should be blamed for what the institution does, but that is an important distinction. Evangelical Christianity is a "mish mash"—to use your term—of denominations, some of which can sometimes even skew liberal. To label them all in any fashion is as much a mistake as labelling all Jews or all Catholics. But the Catholic Church is distinct among them because it is, in fact, a specific, unique, and hierarchical organization that must be held accountable for its own actions through history. The same church that gave us Francis gave us the Borgias. While I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater, I think we should proceed with caution, and I think Sorondo knew exactly what he was doing when he invited Sanders. I am not lying to you when I say this would have bothered me if it were Hillary. It is, to be sure, a different use of institutional power than that of corporations but it is still a use of that power nonetheless and it legitimately concerns me, not out of jealous for who didn't get invited or complaints over who invited who. I couldn't believe those were even the issues discussed by either candidate's supporters, frankly.

I am not saying that you said I was a WASP, merely that I am not one since you mentioned the picture as being WASPS and I felt the need to say that this was not my agenda, but I've already pointed out that the picture is not actually of WASPS and it becomes that much more apropos to the conversation given both your professed believes what I know of my own.

Does my username say atheist to you? *grin* I am about as Witchcraft as it gets. But, I am also a skeptic and somewhat of an agnostic. I also have no direct issue with Catholics. Catholics pay most of my bills. But the undue influence of the institution is a different story entirely.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
70. I think we just misunderstood each other, I nave been to many neo-pagan festiviles
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:59 PM
Apr 2016

(Starwood especially, back in it's heyday)

If you are part of this rather diverse group (and you will no doubt agree it is extremely diverse) that still maintains a population of very peaceful and non-judgmental people, that embrace love, life, and harmony with nature, then we have far more in common than not.

We do disagree about the purposes of the visit, but nobody can agree on everything, but we can agree to disagree in peace and meet again more merrily.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
76. Times like these get heated.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:09 PM
Apr 2016

We all have passion. Heck, magical people live in a world of passion and of imagination.

I like this board, but I don't like some of what I see. I realize that it can tweak nerves even critiquing the decision of the institution of the Church, but I would be the first to come down on someone bashing Catholics or using sacred Catholic iconography to attack Sanders (as I have seen on some posts—and I'm sure we know better than to tango with the Blessed Mother), but there's a lot of stuff in that vein I don't like, from "Stockholm Syndrome," to "old man", to "I didn't know that Jews hated blacks so much," to "corporate whore." I've used some racy language in my day but it does us no good to associate our greater cause with this. My various disagreements with Hillary and Bernie are marginal at best. I think they'd both do a great job in their own right. I personally think she'd do better but I'm not gonna fall on the sword for either of them and I don't think any of us should sacrifice our integrity for some of the commentary I've seen on here lately.

That said, I'm looking forward to whoever gets the nomination kicking Trump's ass. I used to like him when he was a bloviator on a reality show. Now I just think he's an embarrassment. I had to unlike him on Facebook (which I'd liked just cuz of the TV show) just so people wouldn't make the mistake of thinking I was voting for him.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
72. And speaking of bigotry ...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:01 PM
Apr 2016

This is real bigotry in action right here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511747020#post56

Where did any of us criticizing a decision by the institution of the Church defame their sacred symbols, yet this person can talk about our sacred symbols as "disturbing?"

Some of the commentary I've seen from supporters of both of these candidates has made me embarrassed to be a liberal at times. I realize not every supporter is that way, but enough of them here are, and on both sides. It's really disappointing.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
89. At least ...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:44 PM
Apr 2016

he had the courage to ask me about it and I explained the meaning behind it. It is that meaning, and what it meant to those who dared to wear it or dared to peer beyond the rational and acceptable to see other realities that caused the institution of the Church to hang, burn, and torture anyone they thought might be dabbling in such alleged darkness. Mind you, most of the people executed were almost certainly good Christian people, but it's the idea of what they did that gives me the trepidation that such institutions should tread carefully into the waters of politics. It doesn't always end well. I have my own issues with corporate interests as well, but this raises the specter of some pretty terrible points in history.

I will say this, I'm glad they're reaching out to Bernie and not to Trump. If they did that, I'd be afraid there was another Crusades coming.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
110. I don't remember the 1960 campaign. I have studied the history...
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:04 AM
Apr 2016

The only photo (apart from USN) I can find where JFK is wearing a hat:



...what JFK thought about his religion and politics:



Anti-Catholic prejudice was still very much in the mainstream of American life when JFK decided to seek the presidency in 1960.

Only one Catholic, Governor Alfred E. Smith of New York, had ever been the presidential nominee of one of the major parties. Smith’s 1928 campaign was dogged by claims that he would build a tunnel connecting the White House and the Vatican and would amend the Constitution to make Catholicism the nation’s established religion. He was overwhelmingly defeated—even losing much of the then Democratic Solid South.

JFK established an informal network of advisers on the religious issue—including speechwriter Ted Sorensen, Dean Francis Bowes Sayre Jr. of the National Cathedral and several journalists. It was clear from the outset that Kennedy had to enter the state primaries to prove to skeptical party leaders that he was a viable national candidate. In the Minnesota primary, he defeated Senator Hubert Humphrey with 56% of the vote but failed to win a majority of the Protestant vote—an ominous sign.

West Virginia Primary

As a result, Kennedy decided to enter the West Virginia primary—a state in which Catholics constituted less than 4% of the electorate. When the polls in West Virginia showed JFK behind by 20 points, he decided to address the issue head on in a speech before the American Society of Newspaper Editors:

Are we going to admit to the world that a Jew can be elected Mayor of Dublin, a Protestant can be chosen Foreign Minister of France, a Moslem can be elected to the Israeli parliament—but a Catholic cannot be President of the United States? Are we going to admit to the world--worse still, are we going to admit to ourselves—that one-third of the American people is forever barred from the White House?


In the end, after a vigorous campaign which included extensive use of his family’s personal wealth, Kennedy won by 93,000 to 61,000 and declared, "I think we have buried the religion issue once and for all." He was wrong.

Greater Houston Ministerial Association

In September, a group of 150 Protestant ministers met in Washington and declared that Kennedy could not remain independent of Church control unless he specifically repudiated its teachings. Days later Senator Kennedy received an invitation to address the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Kennedy’s candid and eloquent performance in Houston won nearly universal praise from the press and film of his talk was used extensively by the JFK campaign. In addition, more than 500,000 copies of his remarks were distributed to clergy, especially Protestant clergy, around the nation. The religious issue never surfaced again in a way which demanded the candidate’s full attention, but continued to bubble just beneath the surface until Election Day. Vice President Richard Nixon, the Republican nominee, accused the Kennedy campaign of using the Houston film in predominantly Catholic urban areas in order to stimulate voter turnout.

The Finals Days of the Campaign

Late in October, three American-born bishops in Puerto Rico issued a statement forbidding Catholics from voting for candidates who disagreed with the Church on abortion and birth control. Kennedy initially decided to respond to their declaration, but finally concluded that it was unwise to focus too much attention on this potentially damaging incident. Several studies have concluded that this controversy, coming at the worst possible time, was a significant factor in the sudden halt in Kennedy’s momentum and the surge toward Nixon in the final days of the campaign.

Kennedy won the presidency in one of the closest elections in American history—by a margin of 118,000 votes out of 69 million. There is solid evidence that religion helped Kennedy in several urban and industrial states but was, at the same time, a significant factor in his loss of Ohio, Kentucky, Florida, and Tennessee—and in his very close win in Texas. More than a half century after his presidency, JFK remains the only Catholic to have held the highest office in the land.

SOURCE: http://www.jfklibrary.org/JFK/JFK-in-History/JFK-and-Religion.aspx



I do remember 1961 and beyond -- like Borges' Funes (PDF: http://www.srs-pr.com/literature/borges-funes.pdf) remember. The world became a much different place today because of the assassination of President Kennedy more than half a century ago. Then, the Democrats and most Americans believed in Peace and Prosperity for ALL. Today, money trumps peace.

PS: My grandmother was excommunicated by the Catholic Church in PR. She was a social worker who helped bring "Family Planning" to the Commonwealth.

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
35. And still ...
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:11 PM
Apr 2016

... people aren't clamoring to say that this letter absolutely does not address Bernie Sanders as a brother. All I can think of is that the majority of people with sense must have this person on ignore.

Never mind how you feel about the candidate or even the pope. It's just grammatically untrue, not only according to the article linked in the OP, but according to the actual photo of the letter itself.

Gothmog

(146,202 posts)
64. Denial is not just a river in Africa
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:28 PM
Apr 2016

The Sanders supporters are making stuff up to justify the trip. It is really amusing

BainsBane

(53,137 posts)
98. Like the pope would interfere in our elections
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 03:48 AM
Apr 2016

He is a head of state and head of the Catholic Church, and these people think he would damage his integrity for something like this? You'd think the fact the letter is in Spanish would tip them off that the recipient isn't an English speaker, and of course the linked article clearly says the letter was sent to the Monsignor, which the OP must know since it's written right before the text he excerpted. This is a nasty fabrication all the way around.

Gothmog

(146,202 posts)
63. That note was not addressed to Sanders
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:27 PM
Apr 2016

Brother is singular and it was addressed to the Vatican official who ran the conference.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
83. Love bernie- but you read it wrong
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:23 PM
Apr 2016

The note was sent to Msgr. Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo, a senior papal official and the academy’s chancellor, who read the pope’s words: “Yesterday I realized that today was going to be very complicated because of my trip to Lesbos. Today I confirm this situation and would like to apologize for not being able to attend. I kindly ask you to greet the speakers and participants, requesting their understanding for this situation. I will keep them all in my prayers and good wishes, and send them my heartfelt thanks for their participation. May the Lord bless you. Fraternally, Franciscus.”

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
100. Thank you, Marrah_G! The Brother addressed the sisters and brothers...
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:42 AM
Apr 2016

I very much appreciate the translation. I was not able to read all the copy from the image.

It is a great honor for Bernie. The Pope singled him out among those running for president because of his compassion for humanity and his concern for the future of the planet.

Contrast that with those sisters and brothers who put corporate profits as their guiding principle. George WBush globalized the concept as "money trumps peace."

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
111. It was indeed a great honor
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:05 AM
Apr 2016

Not so much because it was the Vatican, per se, but because it was in a forum where his words could be spread around the world. I have many beefs with Rome, but I truly am glad to see they are starting to turn back to caring for the people. It gives me hope that sooner or later they will get on the correct side of female health and equality as well as LGBT equality.

itsrobert

(14,157 posts)
104. Camp Pinocchio doesn't care
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:33 AM
Apr 2016

They repeat this lie, loudly and often. There is no ounce of honesty in any of them.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
108. That is low, even coming from you, itsrobert.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:49 AM
Apr 2016

Contrast "No ounce of honesty in any of them" with reality, the election of Bill Clinton in 1992:

My liberal friends, both registered Democrats and Other, were quite excited to learn an anti-Vietnam guy was going to serve as President.

I, too, believed he would put the interests of ALL the nation ahead of that of the 1-percent. Same for President Obama when he took office. I had so hoped for change.

[font size="4"]I was wrong.[/font size]

As a forensic economist in the employ of the US Government, William K. Black helped send the S&L looters to jail in the late 80s and early 90's. In 2008, most of Iceland's banks collapsed and they called on Black to help prosecute 80 banksters.

One would think Black would be able to put a lot of Banksters behind bars. But, no dice. No Banksters are behind bars. As George W Bush said, "Commercial interests are very powerful interests," on Feb. 14, 2007 at a White House press conference in which he added, "Let me put it this way, ah, sometimes, ah, money trumps peace."

And then he giggled and not a single member of the callow, cowed and corrupt press corpse saw fit to ask a follow-up.



Gold Star mom Cindy Sheehan tried to bring it to our nation's attention back in 2007. I don't recall even one reporter from the national corporate owned news seeing it fit to comment. Certainly not many have commented on how three generations of Bush men -- Senator Prescott Sheldon Bush, President George Herbert Walker Bush and pretzeldent George Walker Bush all had their eyes on Iraq's oil.

I wish the Press had done its job. Those in authority would have to do their job. Millions might still be alive, the People might use the money spent on wars in better ways, and the Republic might see a return to Justice. To get that started requires jailing those who lied America into war, not making them into heroes cough Bush.

PS: President Bill Clinton could have prosecuted that lot's FATHER, the war criminal George Herbert Walker Bush, and his cronies who, like his Dim Son, also lied America into war in Iraq, but didn't. There was a lot more my friends and I were wrong about, too.

 

rjsquirrel

(4,762 posts)
101. Pope is a con man
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:04 AM
Apr 2016

Just like Falwell and Robertson. Pandering to him makes me think less of Bernie.

Man of God in silk finery living in a palace calling regular people sinners.

islandmkl

(5,275 posts)
103. is that the same POPE the CLINTON FOUNDATION invited?
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:32 AM
Apr 2016

just checking to see if you are up on your candidate's contact list...or maybe you are and Hill's has deleted the Pope...

 

rjsquirrel

(4,762 posts)
106. Yes. They too
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:47 AM
Apr 2016

are con men.

I'm surprised a dyed in the wool conspiracy theorist has a soft spot for the Vatican though!

How's that pardon coming?

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