A great critique of Clinton and the cheerleaders.

[SkyIsGrey]

[RiverLover]

1. Now that's a tough reality to swallow.

But there it is. Truth.

Sad sickening truth.

[LiberalLovinLug]

149. Yup

[warrprayer]

179. That's them alright!!!

LMAO

[Armstead]

2. The Clinton Class wants you to have less so they can have more

[Ichingcarpenter]

5. Lowered Expectations........Mad TV

With Hillary and Bill

[firebrand80]

3. I will continue to call nonsense what it is

Every time Bernie makes a ridiculous proposal, pointing out the obvious is met with chants of "no we can't." This is suggesting that Bernie should be allowed to promise anything, no matter how impractical, and any scrutiny of such a proposal is defeatism.

I choose to keep my feet grounded in reality. I'm glad to find that most democratic voters agree with me.

[Raster]

4. Don't dare to dream anymore do you?

"I used to have a dream, a dream that one day every child would be able to avail themselves of a quality education, and that education would not cause them to enter into debt servitude for many years. I used to have a dream that every man, woman and child had access to quality health care, not contingent on the size of their bank balance. I used to have a dream the banksters and financial crooks were held to the same legal standards as the rest of us, and that no financial institution was "too big to fail..."

[firebrand80]

11. Thanks for proving my point nt

[Raster]

12. actually, I believe you proved my point.

have a nice day.

[firebrand80]

14. I will. Bernie, not so much. nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

135. You will?

When?

[LiberalLovinLug]

152. I'd never believe it until I saw it

Someone actually proud enough of the "Third Way" concept to add it to their sig.

ie. Move away from traditional Democratic ethical and moral positions and just keep moving as far to right as it takes until the other side says......mmmmmm ok.

You might as well use this symbol:

[Thespian2]

33. Excellent response...

[pangaia]

165. YES. :>)

[Dustlawyer]

25. What Bernie is saying is imminently attainable!

This is our supposedly Democratic country. I know some Colonists said the same thing before the American Revolution, most became Torys. The Founding fathers thought differently, thank goodness, and fought for freedom and won!

All we are trying to do is get Bernie elected and then help him pressure our government into some necessary changes. Our budget is rife with give aways to rich corporations, Bernie just wants to channel that to us with health care, education, and repairing our infrastructure. It can and will be done!

[ToxMarz]

36. I wouldn't necessarily characterize something akin to the American Revolution

as "imminently attainable".

[Dustlawyer]

45. My point is Bernie accomplishing his goals is much EASIER than the American Revolution!

That's why I said it was "imminently attainable!"

[ToxMarz]

54. And by pointing out reality, I am not saying "No we can't"

Dreaming and also working within reality are both valuable qualities.

[Bluenorthwest]

67. People with your mindset also insisted that marriage equality was unrealistic 'settle for civil

unions, it's the best we can dare hope for at least for a generation!!!! Do not let the perfect be the enemy of half a loaf!!! Pragmatism, but also God!!!!'

I had people of no vision on DU saying with great certainty that Obama could not support marriage equality prior to the 2012 election, he would not because if he did he would lose the election in a landslide. They said this on the morning of the day he supported marriage equality, which was just prior to his winning the election.

So what I have to conclude is that such persons have no idea what is possible, no vision of how to attain it and no desire to even try. They do not have even a slight grip on 'reality' and they are often incapable of predicting things that are already happening. They were saying 'Marriage is impossible' when it was already a done deal.

They are the least insightful of all peoples.

[tex-wyo-dem]

74. Bravo! You nailed it!

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

- George Bernard Shaw

[ToxMarz]

78. People with my mindset? That is your problem, you live and act based on your own imagined reality

I'm gay and recently thankfully finally married. Your definition of me couldn't be farther from the fact. But that doesn't matter, as it doesn't work for your narrative. Again, your problem lies with reality. But you've got dreaming pretty much perfected.

[AlbertCat]

138. your problem lies with reality.

I see nothing unrealistic about getting things other 1st world countries have had for years and years....decades.

Go ahead...give up.

[notadmblnd]

177. yes- you are

saying "no, we can't"

[markj757]

58. Although I disagree, I welcome reasoned debate....

Last edited Tue Mar 1, 2016, 08:44 PM - Edit history (2)

It's refreshing to read reasoned debate from the other side on DU. I just want to say, I was very close to voting for Bernie in the primary. But if Bernie wants to get elected President, then he has to start by at least appealing to the majority in his own party. And I firmly believe, that if he had just come out for the public option, and allowing Medicare and Medicaid to negotiate drug prices, he would have had much more broader support in the democratic primary. And it would have served him well in the general election. But he lost me, and I'm sure a lot of Dems who wanted to be able to vote for someone, instead of a vote against someone (meaning voting for Hillary to stop Trump).

[jeff47]

92. The majority in his own party wants single payer.

Single payer polls in the 70s and 80s among Democrats. And has for decades.

Just because the people on the TV say it's unpopular does not mean it is.

[rhett o rick]

173. Just admit you are happy or at least content with the status quo. Willing to give up your

freedoms and liberties to be under the control of a tough authoritarian leader. But you forget the millions, 50 fucking millions in fact, that live in poverty and depend on us Democrats to reign in the out of control Wealthy 1% of which Clinton is in the top 1% of the top 1%.

The only way to fix the mess we are in is to demand that the super-wealty pay their fair share and Clinton has made it crystal clear she will never do that. So vote for Clinton and watch the poverty grow along with her personal fortune.

[treestar]

23. So any scrutiny is defeatism.

Funny when President Obama's feet are held to the fire every day.

[Trust Buster]

24. Dream all you wish. Just don't let your dreams overtake you when the makeup of the

Last edited Tue Mar 1, 2016, 10:56 AM - Edit history (1)

Supreme Court hangs in the balance is all we're saying.

[Dustlawyer]

26. Hillary represents the Establishment in an anti-establishment year.

Trump will eat her lunch because unlike Bernie, they cover Trump. Should it be Bernie vs. Trump, Bernie will eat his lunch because they will have to cover Bernie then!

[Trust Buster]

31. The makeup of the Supreme Court does not recognize if this is an anti-Establishment year.

[Dustlawyer]

43. It will when Trump beats Hillary, she can't beat him!

Bernie can though!

[Trust Buster]

46. That's just an opinion without justification IMO.

I'd love to see Hillary standing on a debate stage aside of Trump. I watched her stare down a Republican Beghazi panel for 10 hours and not break a sweat. Sweeping statements like yours are just that. If a nominee Bernie finds himself on a stage after a San Bernadino-like attack, he'd be through. It's just speculation at this point.

[Dustlawyer]

49. Go big or go home! Bernie beats all three Republicans by wider margins than Hillary who

has more trouble beating them.

[Trust Buster]

57. We haven't even watched one Presidential debate yet.

Polls had Romney beating Obama ONE WEEK before the 2012 election. You can pin your hopes on polls 8 months out but I won't.

[hifiguy]

140. There wasn't one Repig on that Benghazi "panel"

who could outsmart a houseplant. It wasn't THAT much of an accomplishment considering that the whole "controversy" was nonsense on stilts from the start.

[Trust Buster]

143. She looked presidential during those 10 withering hours and you know it.

[hifiguy]

145. Dealing with a completely bogus controversy doesn't require a lot.

Especially when you're dealing with dribbling cretins on the other side.

And "looking presidential" and four bucks will get you a latte at Starbucks. Policy is what matters.

[Trust Buster]

148. You miss the point. That woman who stood up to those fools for 10 straight hours and looking

very presidential in the process will do just fine on a debate stage with Trump. You'll never admit that but that's o.k.

[Raster]

77. Yeah, about that. 5 to 10 IF Hillary is the POTUS, her SCOTUS choices will all.....

....be centric, pro-business and retreating from personal rights and freedoms.

[beltanefauve]

134. That whole

vote-Dem-because-of-the-Supreme-Court meme got completely blown out of the water last week when Obama recommended Sandoval as a nominee. I would expect Hillary s picks to be as you suggested or worse.

[Raster]

157. I think the Big O was trolling the rethuglicans....just to see how far they wanna try....

...and carry their bullshit ideology...I would hope. That said...

...I, of course, want a new Justice in the same frame and mindset of the "Notorious RBG," a brilliant, liberal, compassionate jurist with the capacity to view the Constitution as a living document.

[Martin Eden]

72. The impediments to Sanders' proposed policies are political

Aside from the political dysfunction that needs to be overcome, what Bernie proposes is very practical. More than that, it's necessary for a better future.

[RoccoR5955]

15. So you are admitting that you are happy with nothing

You are happy to see your kids have less than you do.
You are happy with the status quo.
I feel sorry for you.

[firebrand80]

19. I think I'm wasting my time here nt

[RoccoR5955]

47. What's the matter?

Can't handle that?

[oasis]

59. You are not wasting your time when you are telling it like it is.

It will take time for many here to finally see the light since they're going through a difficult period right now.

[Bluenorthwest]

68. oasis 2008: "Hillary said "talk is cheap" in reference to Mr. Obama. This is just another

example of his empty words."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4600344

Obama you said was cheap talk and empty words. Not so sure you have really good discernment. This year it is Bernie you don't like, the object of denigration does not really matter, it's all about the object of affection.....

[Raster]

81. worship at the altar of Hill and Bill

interesting when the human sacrifices begin...HRC will have boots on the ground in no time at all. War is generally quite profitable for the 1%.

[oasis]

91. You question the level of my "discernment". Howzabout my numerous

post about Bernie in which I express my admiration and respect?

You took pains to go fishing for something I said about Obama in 2008, but it does nothing to bolster your assertion about my "Hillary affection." But I will say this, if she was ready to take over the top spot back in 2008, she's more than ready today.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. Exactly right: I am 100% for free tuition and fees (paid for by taxes)

But Sanders' plan for it is ridiculous. The problem is not one of impracticality - we could do supported college and healthcare easily if we had the political will. I'm not even talking about passing the plan through Congress. I'm talking about its actual mechanisms - they're silly.

That, plus the real diminished expectations concerns what we can do on guns. I'm pretty close to a one issue voter on gun control, and Sanders is NOWHERE on that. Nowhere. Just looking at a list of some of his ardent supporters is enough to tell you that he is the gun industry candidate in our primary. Talk about diminished expectations! Talk about "no we can't!" Sanders fails on guns. Period.

[Gary 50]

52. Your post is silly. Sanders has a lifetime rating of D- from the NRA.

[Major Hogwash]

128. Maybe that's why Sanders is losing to Hillary to date.

The voters so far are clinging to their Bibles and guns.
Not all conservative whackjobs are in the Republican party, after all.

[tazkcmo]

39. So Europe is exceptional?

That's what you're saying because what Sen Sanders proposes exists there. Single payer healthcare is ridiculous??? Wow. 2016 is the year the former Democratic Party officially died.

[mindem]

41. Oh, yeah!!!!

I love a big dose of republican light first thing in the morning. Heaven forbid the democratic party stands for anything progressive.

[valerief]

55. We don't believe your propaganda. If the first world countries can do it, we can, too. nt

[think]

56. Single payer is just pure fantasy. Bernie fans need to realize unicorns only exist in Canada,

Europe, Australia and other communist wastelands like that....

[angrychair]

71. Well, one thing is clear

We know what side of the Revolutionary War you would have been on...loyalist....grounded in the reality that the most powerful nation on Earth, the Sun never sets on the British Empire, could not be defeated and would lead to the ruin of the colonies.

[longship]

76. "No we can't!!!!" nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

79. Consider first learning to accurately identify nonsense.

Just a suggestion...

[The Traveler]

133. Lots of really well informed and successful people

Don't see it as nonsense at all. America has lost its ability to implement solutions that do not cater to the plutocrats. That is a failure of will and vision more than actual feasibility.

And as Gretsky observed, you miss 100% of all the shots you don't take.

In any event, if this is the new party line, expect a low turnout in November and a smaller Party in 2017. That's just a prediction based on my observations of online and real life interactions between supporters of the party establishment and progressives. This primary and the manner in which the Party has supervised it has exposed a real and fundamental divide within the Party over issues of economics, environment, war and social justice. That rift cannot be resolved by imperious demands to fall in line or the endless parsing of words squeezed of meaning.

Trav

[Gore1FL]

144. What is impractical? Additionally, why do you think we are not as good a Europe?

I realize we'll have to stop redistributing our wealth to the wealthiest, but that doesn't seem all that ridiculous to me. It seem rather sensible.

[sulphurdunn]

161. Whatever else one can accuse the Third Way of,

"fresh thinking" isn't part of it. It never ceases to amaze me that we can bail out casino capitalism and bankroll eternal war, but somehow doing what's right for our children and our elders is impractical. That's some kind of odd reality to be grounded in, but I'm sure the American ruling class loves you for it. Just don't ever ask them to lend a hand if you need it.

[pangaia]

164. The bridge on a violin has been compared to a bridge between heaven and earth.

The box is the earth, the strings are heaven.

The bow makes all things possible.


That is the way I have chosen to live my life.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

170. You choose to keep your feet grounded in quicksand.

Have fun in your downward spiral.

[rhett o rick]

171. All that Sen Sanders promises is to fight for the People. Quite a difference from Clinton

who is in the pocket of Goldman-Sachs and Wall Street. She may pretend to be for the people but it's obvious that her first priority is her wealth and power. She will never ask the Oligarchy to sacrifice for the People.

I see it as a moral issue. The Oligarchy wants more and more power and wealth at the expense of the People. For the last 30 years the Oligarchy has amassed more and more wealth, creating the biggest wealth gap in the world. The Clintons themselves have amassed enough $150,000,000 to put them in the top 1% of the top 1%. They don't give a crap about us peons.

As Black Lives Matter said so well, "Make no mistake, this is Hillary Clinton. She "left our prisons bursting at the seams." She "stripped funding for college education from prisoners." She supported policies that prevented anyone convicted of a felony drug offense from receiving food stamps or income assistance. Clinton-led welfare reform fundamentally ripped apart the social safety net.” She is no friend of the 99%.

I find it immoral to support the wealthy 1% while we have children dying from poverty. Think about whose side you choose to be on.

[Cobalt Violet]

6. The truth!

Glad to not be one of Hillary's Bots.

[Bettie]

7. That is the message I'm seeing too

and it is unacceptable to me. Period.

There should always be a drive to make things better, to ensure that everyone has a decent life, not just the corporate class and "corporate persons".

[Locrian]

8. the mask is coming off

More and more explicit that the ruling class is in power and everyone else needs to "get used to it".

Keep stretching that rubber band folks. When it snaps it's going to be a big one.

[Buzz Clik]

9. Classic.

My God, I do love Sandernistas!

[grossproffit]

21. Results of Jury

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

More of the kind of name-calling that will wreck DU for good if we don't do something about it.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Mar 1, 2016, 06:54 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree that this is another personal attack and name calling
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Seriously? The OP isn't offensive but this post is? FFS!
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[Buzz Clik]

48. Oh, the bitter irony. On a thread that slanders Clinton and her followers...

... we have an alert worried about the word "sandernista":

More of the kind of name-calling that will wreck DU for good if we don't do something about it.

[SkyIsGrey]

90. What country do we live in?

Not the one you want.

[Buzz Clik]

111. Exactly. I complain about an alert, and you tell me to move out of the country.

Nicely played.

[SkyIsGrey]

115. What is it with Authoritarians and comprehension?

Did not say to leave; said that the country that the Clintonistas want to "pragmatically" impose on us is not the one we all should fighting to achieve.

Alert this!

You're keeping in step
In the line
Got your chin held high and you feel just fine
Cause you do
What you're told
But inside your heart it is black and it's hollow and it's cold

Just how deep do you believe?
Will you bite the hand that feeds?
Will you chew until it bleeds?
Can you get up off your knees?
Are you brave enough to see?
Do you want to change it?

What if this whole crusade's
A charade
And behind it all there's a price to be paid
For the blood
On which we dine
Justified in the name of the holy and the divine

Just how deep do you believe?
Will you bite the hand that feeds?
Will you chew until it bleeds?
Can you get up off your knees?
Are you brave enough to see?
Do you want to change it?

So naive
I keep holding on to what I want to believe
I can see
But I keep holding on and on and on and on

Will you bite the hand that feeds you?
Will you stay down on your knees?

[Buzz Clik]

116. nice cut and paste.

The illogic is staggering.

Enjoy Super Tuesday. I will.

[SkyIsGrey]

124. Thank you!

Logic, you keep using that word...

Clinton swept ST in 2008 as well.

[Nanjeanne]

10. A Sad Truth.

[VulgarPoet]

13. "And now I see with eye serene; The very pulse of the machine."

I'd go find that quote about putting bodies on the gears, but... Fuck if the Clinton camp isn't proving day by day that nihilism is better.

[Buzz Clik]

50. Fuck yeah!

[Lizzie Poppet]

82. Thank you for providing the corporate viewpoint.

Saves a trip to Free Republic...

[Buzz Clik]

108. LOL! You think the bottom-feeding knuckledragging Freepers represent corporate America?

No more than DU represents the Democratic Party. (Hint: not at all. Don't believe me? Check the polls)

[Lizzie Poppet]

130. Nice work: straw man AND non-sequitur.

A two-fer!

[Octafish]

16. Top Secret

These are the wealthiest times in human history -- 7/8th of ALL the wealth ever created has been made since 1981 and most of it is in the pockets of the 1-percent of 1-percent. -- David Stockman

[stillwaiting]

17. She was paid very well to spread that message.

It is a damn shame that message seems to have found purchase within the democratic voting ranks.
I am sure she and Goldman Sachs are quite thrilled right about now.

It's a message I don't support and never will.

[JaneyVee]

20. Hillary has put out far more policy than Bernie has.

[Dustlawyer]

29. And most of her policy sucks! It stinks on ice!

[JaneyVee]

37. Yeah Im sure you really read any of them.

[Kall]

122. Few objective people believe any of it.

After you spend years selling the TPP as the "gold standard", then say you're against it right before the Democratic primary, while the US Chamber of Commerce says Hillary is just saying that and she'll be for it again later (and the Clinton campaign takes no offence at the statement), few policy positions of hers are going to be taken seriously.

I have read her health care policy, which she's highlighted as one of the most important things to her. 6 or 7 vague and generalized bullet points, and one of them is "As Senator, I got funding for responders after 9/11." At least she wasn't using 9/11 to defend $225,000/hour speaking fees this time, I guess.

[bvf]

40. How about that.

What policy was she pushing with that IWR vote? Surely that was an indication of what to expect.

You call it "policy." A better term would be "shit sandwich."

[Trust Buster]

62. Her vote was justified IMO.

In proper context, just months after 9-11, Bush, Cheney and Rice traveled around this country using terms like "mushroom cloud" to a frightened American public. Bush asked for the vote as a hammer to hold over Saddam's head to force him to comply with U.N. inspections. Bush and Cheney lied about their intentions. In that context, a Senator from New York standing in the recent shadows of an altered New York skyline voted to authorize force if necessary. If I were the Senator of New York at the time, I would have voted for it myself. So would have most Americans if they were the acting Senator of the State of New York.

[freebrew]

84. Right-wing bullshit...

every real news organization, the internet and foreign intelligence pointed to the fact that Powell was lying through his teeth.

THERE WERE NO WMDS! There was no indication of them. If any one of the senators would have done an inkling of investigation,
they would have seen it, too.

[Fla Dem]

87. +1000. "voted to authorize force if necessary"

This was a conditional vote. "to authorize force if necessary". The Democrats that voted for this authorization did not expect Bush/Cheney/Rice to rush to war. They wanted the inspections for WMD to continue in Iraq. Given the climate at the time and being the Senator from NY, it was a reasonable decision for HRC to make an affirmative vote. Hindsight is 20-20.

Handing Bush a major victory, the Democratic-led Senate voted 77-23 for a war powers resolution negotiated between the White House and congressional leaders backing a possible use of force to rid Iraq of suspected weapons of mass destruction and possibly oust Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

The resolution "supported" and "encouraged" diplomatic efforts by President George W. Bush to "strictly enforce through the U.N. Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq" and "obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion, and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq."

The resolution authorized President Bush to use the Armed Forces of the United States "as he determines to be necessary and appropriate" in order to "defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

Hillary Clinton Told the Truth About Her Iraq War Vote

Her foreign policy judgment can’t be understood without that context.

By Fred Kaplan Slate
FEB. 4 2016


>>>>snip<<<<

In response, Clinton acknowledged, as she has on previous occasions, that she’d made a mistake. But she also offered an explanation for her vote, something she has rarely done in the past. President Bush, she told the audience, had made a “very explicit appeal” that “getting this vote would be a strong piece of leverage in order to finish the inspections.” In other words, a resolution to use force would prod Saddam Hussein into readmitting U.N. inspectors, so they could continue their mission of verifying whether or not he had destroyed his chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons sites. In other words, Clinton was now claiming she voted the way she did in the interests of diplomacy; the problem was that Bush went back on his word—he invaded before giving the inspectors enough time.

Listening to her rationale Wednesday night, I didn’t know whether she was telling the truth. I had written many Slate columns about the Iraq debate and the ensuing war, but I couldn’t remember the details of then-Sen. Clinton’s position. Looking up those details now, I have come to a conclusion about the rationale she recited at the New Hampshire town hall: Hillary was telling the truth.

This fact doesn’t vindicate her vote back in 2002—far from it. But it does take some of the sting out of Sanders’ attack. In short, her vote on Iraq, under the circumstances, should not be seen as the indicator of her stance or judgment on armed intervention generally.

The evidence is clear. On Oct. 10, 2002, during the Senate debate on a resolution to authorize the use of force in Iraq, Clinton rose to express her highly qualified support. First, though, she criticized the idea of attacking Saddam then and there, either alone or “with any allies we can muster.” Such a course, she said, “is fraught with danger,” in part because “it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us,” legitimizing invasions that Russia might launch against Georgia, India against Pakistan, or China against Taiwan.

“So,” she continued, “the question is, how do we do our best to both diffuse the threat Saddam Hussein poses to his people, the region, including Israel, and the United States—and, at the same time, work to maximize our international support and strengthen the United Nations.”

More>>>>>>>>>
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2016/02/hillary_clinton_told_the_truth_about_her_iraq_war_vote.html

[bvf]

89. "The Democrats that voted for this authorization

did not expect Bush/Cheney/Rice to rush to war."

Then they were fucking idiots, weren't they?

Want one of those in the White House?

I sure as hell don't.

[Fla Dem]

98. Long list of "fucking idiots" including Joe Biden, Tom Harkin, John Kerry etc.

Yes, they were all duped by GWB and his cronies. If anything this betrayal of her and others has made her stronger and wiser. I have no problem with her in the WH. She has so much more foreign policy experience now than she did in 2002 a year and one half after becoming a senator.

58% of Democratic senators (29 of 50) voted for the resolution. Those voting for the resolution were:
Bayh, Evan (D-IN)
Baucus, Max (D-MT)
Biden, Joseph (D-DE)
Breaux, John (D-LA)
Cantwell, Maria (D-WA)
Carnahan, Jean (D-MO)
Carper, Thomas (D-DE)
Cleland, Max (D-GA)
Clinton, Hillary (D-NY)
Daschle, Tom (D-SD)
Dodd, Chris (D-CT)
Dorgan, Byron (D-ND)
Edwards, John (D-NC)
Feinstein, Dianne (D-CA)
Harkin, Tom (D-IA)
Hollings, Ernest (D-SC)
Johnson, Tim (D-SD)
Kerry, John (D-MA)
Kohl, Herb (D-WI)
Landrieu, Mary (D-LA)
Lieberman, Joseph (D-CT)
Lincoln, Blanche (D-AR)
Miller, Zell (D-GA)
Nelson, Ben (D-NE)
Nelson, Bill (D-FL)
Reid, Harry (D-NV)
Rockefeller, Jay (D-WV)
Schumer, Chuck (D-NY)
Torricelli, Robert (D-NJ)

[bvf]

99. That *is* quite a list, ain't it though?

Guess who didn't make it onto the list.

Need any help? A hint, maybe?

Maybe you'd be fine with Zell Miller as president. Can I put you down as a supporter? That would be really cool.

[Fla Dem]

100. Your snark gave me a real good laugh this morning. Hope you're still feeling snarky tomorrow.

Have a great Super Tuesday!

[bvf]

102. So, what is your stance on Zell Miller?

Still like him? Seems so.

You obviously think his presence on your list means something. Otherwise, you wouldn't have taken the trouble to post it.

By all means, tell us all why you believe he would be a good president.

[Fla Dem]

103. You pick one a-hole Dem senator from that list and ask me an asinine question.

Not worthy of an answer. Try and be a little less cute in your replies.

[bvf]

106. What makes him more of an asshole

than any of the others?

Your answer should be interesting, since you posted a list with his name on it.

What, exactly? I have a feeling you'll run out of smilies before you can deliver a cogent reply, starting now.

[Herman4747]

159. Tellingly, some of the best Dems in the Senate voted "no"

For example, Senators Barbara Boxer, Carl Levin, the Hawaii Dems, etc.

And Florida Senator Bob Graham, chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, voted "no."

He was able to conclude: "From my advantaged position, I had earlier concluded that a war with Iraq would be a distraction from the successful and expeditious completion of our aims in Afghanistan. Now I had come to question whether the White House was telling the truth -- or even had an interest in knowing the truth."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/18/AR2005111802397.html

All Hillary had to do was listen to him. She chose not to.

[bvar22]

166. ...and THAT is why Hillary bought full page ads in every major newspaper..

...after Bush started mobilizing forces to invade Iraq...angrily attacking Bush because "he abused the authority I gave him with my vote".
She also appeared on all the Talking Head shows bitterly condemning the illegal invasion.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Oh wait.
That never happened.
Hillary danced and cheered as our troops slaughtered innocents all the way to Baghdad.


It is better to just accept the truth instead of insisting that The Village Idiot from Crawford Fooled Her.
I don't want someone THAT dumb to have their finger on the button.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

88. Really?

I guess the 23 senators and 133 representatives who rightly voted against it didn't get that memo.

[bvf]

95. Exactly.

Now we're expected to believe that dead American troops were a small price to pay for that glass of tasty Kool-aid.

It's obscene, but I bet Halliburton and Blackwater made out OK.

[Trust Buster]

105. You are not being fair.

Bush is responsible for the Iraq War. In the months following 9-11, with Bush's false representations, the majority of Americans would have voted "yes" on that resolution if they were representing ground zero of a terrorist attack in their state. That is, with the exception of self righteous Monday morning quarterbacks. Like this silly fuss about her private transcripts, her vote on that resolution is not even close to being an issue with me.

[bvf]

107. Ask any member of a family

of an Iraq war casualty if I'm "being fair."

Your use of the phrase, "self-righteous Monday morning quarterbacks" insults them all, and millions of others.

To you, I guess it's just another "silly fuss." How you can think like that is beyond me.

[Trust Buster]

121. I believe that the vast majority of Americans would have voted as Hillary did.

If the vast majority of Americans were the Senator of a state whose largest city was the sight of this country's worst terrorist attack, whose President and Vice President were traveling the country telling a scared public that Iraq had WMD's and floating visions of mushroom clouds, whose President misrepresented his intentions as far as the resolution being used as a hammer to force Saddam to comply with U.N. inspections, then the vast majority would have voted as Hillary did in that context.

Bernie Sanders, on the other hand, was an Independent Senator from a small state. He had the freedom to buck the system. But, notice that, when he chooses to run for President, he conveniently runs to the political party that he previously was not accountable to. He relishes the power of the Democratic Party but avoided any responsibility to the party including the Iraq vote. How damn convenient.

[Rilgin]

125. No No No

Hillary was courted to give Bush cover for the Iraq invasion which was not supported by the American People unilaterally.

We had already invaded Afghanistan by that time which was politically popular. I am generally anti-war and found this military response (rather than an international criminal justice system response) unfortunate. However, this was understandable. Other people are more military minded and there was support for the military invasion of Afghanistan.

Iraq did not have the same immediate support. There were millions against it and everyone with who was thinking intellectually rather than ambitiously or was a Bush neo con with ulterior motives knew it was problematic.

She did not just Vote but was used/cooperated in selling the War. She said it was necessary to take Saddam out. Just look at her speech and defenses of her vote over the years. She was drumming up support for the war.

Her calculation was that the war was going to be successful and she would look tough. All the middle democrats made the same calculation. They just didnt know it would end up so bad that they would have to acknowledge it as a mistake of momentous importance. This is often the case with conservative democrats over the last 30 years. They adopt republican memes thinking that will further their ambitions rather than fight against them. And they can even be right thinking it is an easier political path to furthering their own ambitions. Its just not best for the country. Our truth tellers and principled politicians might lose as Bernie might. They just are on the right side of the issues unlike politicians like Hillary who will sell us out. It ends up a Pyrrhic victory if we elect such politicians.

[mrdmk]

158. Afghanistan war was and is half understandable at best, maybe

The bottom line at the time was President Bush Jr. wanted to go to war. Most everyone in the administration wanted to go to war. Members of Congress wanted to go to war. The media really wanted to go to war. Corporations, especially the Military Industrial Complex wanted a war. It was war, war, war and the beat went on!

The Afghanistan (Taliban Regime) wanted to send Osama Bin Laden to the Hague for an international court trial. Bush and the USA govenment was having no part of it...

Bush rejects Taliban offer to hand Bin Laden over

President George Bush rejected as "non-negotiable" an offer by the Taliban to discuss turning over Osama bin Laden if the United States ended the bombing in Afghanistan.

Returning to the White House after a weekend at Camp David, the president said the bombing would not stop, unless the ruling Taliban "turn [bin Laden] over, turn his cohorts over, turn any hostages they hold over." He added, "There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty". In Jalalabad, deputy prime minister Haji Abdul Kabir - the third most powerful figure in the ruling Taliban regime - told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, but added: "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country".

The offer came a day after the Taliban's supreme leader rebuffed Bush's "second chance" for the Islamic militia to surrender Bin Laden to the US.

Mullah Mohammed Omar said there was no move to "hand anyone over".

Taliban 'ready to discuss' Bin Laden handover if bombing halts
The Taliban would be ready to discuss handing over Osama bin Laden to a neutral country if the US halted the bombing of Afghanistan, a senior Taliban official said today.

link: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

The short story is the majority in the USA government wanted war and Afghanistan was not good enough for them. A sorry state of affairs which we are paying for to this day in blood.

SO SAD

[Rilgin]

160. Agreed

The poster I responded to trotted out some of the usual excuses to forgive Hillary's vote ultimately labelling it "understandable" as she was the senator from NY. It was mostly that statement that I responded to. Iraq had a lot of opposition including in NY and the vote for war was not "understandable" unless in relation to Hillary's ambitions.

If we are going to excuse politicians for a reactive war vote supported by constituents it might be true about Afghanistan which had some level of popular support. I did not agree with that decision as well preferring that terrorism be treated as crime rather than war. I think we would be much better off but the political pressure for a vote for the Afghan war was more understandable. That is why with small exceptions most Democratic Politicians voted for the invasion of Afghanistan.

Iraq is a different matter and public sentiment was mixed. I respect democratic politicians who voted against the Iraq war like Sanders. I do not respect those democratic politicians who wanted to look strong and valued their ambitions more than good policy. Everyone knew Bush was asking for war in Iraq as he had wanted war in Afghanistan (as you pointed out) and many of us knew the claims were based on lies. It should have been and was easier for a senator like Hillary to know Bush was using propaganda and lying to the American People.

[mrdmk]

162. That is about it! Thank you for your response

If I am going to hear from Clinton, "I thought I had acted in good faith and made the best decision I could with the information I had. And I wasn't alone in getting it wrong. But I still got it wrong. Plain and simple."

link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2014/06/05/hillary-clinton-on-iraq-vote-i-still-got-it-wrong-plain-and-simple/

We can deconstruct this argument sentence by sentence:

"I thought I had acted in good faith and made the best decision I could with the information I had." Either you thought it best for yourself, did not do your homework, or did not comprehend what you were hearing and reading. When you send people to their deaths, you need to do better than that. Not good enough.

"And I wasn't alone in getting it wrong." Oh boy. This is an excuse I would expect from a child to their parents.

"But I still got it wrong." Clinton's solution for this mistake is more war. How about becoming the Secretary of State and finding a political solution. Oops, been there, done that, didn't work. More war is the motto.

"Plain and simple." Shit! The world, no matter how you slice and dice it, is a complex place. It requires a lot more thought than, "Plain and simple." The world is not and never exist on, "Plain and simple."

[bvf]

151. Then you would presumably be just as happy

with any one of that "vast majority" in the White House.

You're clearly a fan of finger-in-the-wind politics, and obviously don't expect any more from your elected leaders than you would from your next-door neighbor.

That's scary as hell, coming from someone who can actually type.

[SkyIsGrey]

155. It's not what the "vast majority of Americans (sic) would do"

It is what those members of congress that voted "yes" should have done: Be pragmatic and not be afraid to (nice tell btw) "buck the system" and wait on the already occurring U.N. inspections. (http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/30/world/meast/iraq-weapons-inspections-fast-facts/)

"runs to the political party that he previously was not accountable to."
Nice straw man you got there.

[Rilgin]

119. He is being very fair.

All you are doing is accepting the plausible deniability drafted into the Vote.

Everyone, Senators and Congressmen more than any, knew it was a Vote for war not inspections. This knowledge extended to the street which is why millions were on the street protesting against the coming war.

It was the War Vote and Hillary went the wrong way for political reasons and not for policy reasons. The mainstream thinking was that any peace candidate would be politically damaged when the war went well. It was a political calculation. Ambitious politicians went with it. Thoughtful principled politicians said no or wanted the Levin Amendment which required another Vote to actually pull the plug on war.

The Bush lies were already being exposed at the time if you wanted to actually investigate. That is why people like me who are not Senators knew that the Bush claims on Aluminum Tubes were inauthentic.

This war excuse is part of a long line of excuses that are just made up but which Hillary supporters hang your hat on. Support Doma so no constitutional amendment (This one is the best one yet). Vote against a ban on the use of Cluster Munitions in Civilian Areas (no excuse yet), Campaign promises of Hillary to vote against trade agreements which no one should believe later shown to be false in her emails (Columbia Free Trade). The false memes about Hillary's last actions are endless.

Free yourself of the statements and her politics and actually look at her history and you will feel a lot better. She is a very carefully crafted politicians with image. Her excuses for when reality impede are actually rather pathetic.

[Trust Buster]

123. Please read my recent post #121 especially the second paragraph concerning Sanders.

[bvf]

168. A pointer to pure straw. Gee, how nice!

[djean111]

53. There is no reason to believe anything Hillary says. No reason at all. n/t

[ejbr]

60. +1 n/t

[jeff47]

97. No, she really hasn't.

She's put out various statements. They are surprisingly incomplete for a campaign insisting they are detailed and complete.

[pdsimdars]

27. Beautifully said

and just like the Southern poor who keep voting in Republicans who keep them down, voting against their own best interests. It looks like too many Democrats are doing the same thing by supporting Hillary. They are accepting themselves as "less than", agreeing that they should have less, they deserve less.
I'll be doing a Bernie write in if worse comes to worse. I won't give my acceptance to being thought of as less.

[Trust Buster]

63. Not correct. We are pragmatists.

We just recognize that Bernie's proposals are dead on arrival in Congress. We also recognize that the makeup of the Supreme Court hangs in the balance. If you don't wish to be "less than" then do everything you can to avoid a 7-2 Right leaning Supreme Court. Bernie's timing couldn't be worse IMO.

[SkyIsGrey]

104. Keep up the fight!

As long as we capitulate!

[Thespian2]

28. I thought every intelligent person

already knew this...but thanks for putting the truth out there...

[blackspade]

30. Huge K&R

[72DejaVu]

32. What a load of crap

Clinton will work towards steady progress.

Bernie promises things he can never deliver.

Making a promise you know you can't keep is the moral equivalent of a lie.

[Jitter65]

34. That +++

[Buzz Clik]

51. +1

I held out for Bernie as long as I could. His below average record as a career politician and his impractical dreams were just too much. Not to mention the company he keeps...

[great white snark]

61. Crap sums it up nicely.

Desperation overload.

[SkyIsGrey]

93. That "steady progress" of sliding down the slope since the mid '70s?

Sanders, and politicians like him, want to stop and reverse that slide. It could be argued that some of those are not achievable under our current political climate; but I would like a politician that does not blow around like a lose piece of paper in a strong wind and would try their hardest to achieve those without "pragamating" to the lying and corrupted.

[jeff47]

94. How will she?

Clinton will work towards steady progress.

How?

Her milquetoast proposals are just as DOA at Congress.

And her milquetoast proposals are insufficient to actually change the makeup of Congress.

Making a promise you know you can't keep is the moral equivalent of a lie.

Unless you can explain how Clinton gets Congress to expand the ACA, you just called her a liar. And there's many other proposals by Clinton that require Congress.

[Vinca]

35. I guess the message is: expect nothing and you won't be disappointed.

Rah freaking rah.

[Trust Buster]

64. Allow a 7-2 Right leaning Supreme Court and you'll lose everything.

[SkyIsGrey]

80. Like Clinton won't "pragmatize" to appease the right?

n.t.

[Armstead]

73. The Democrats are becoming the party of nihilism

In the end we all die anyway. Don't bother trying to give it any meaning.

Would make for some great banners at the convention.

[Buns_of_Fire]

113. We just need something to inspire us! So, in that vein...

(Okay, maybe that wasn't the best choice. It still beats anything Franklin Graham has ever come up with.)

[Armstead]

114. That wou,d make a great campaign ad - "My name is Hillary Clinton and I approve this message"

[drokhole]

38. The people who have been "brought to heel" are the entire Democratic Party. n/t

[mountain grammy]

66. +1

except for those who have left the party, and there are many.

From "HOPE" to "NOPE" that's the DNC today, and locally, where it really counts, we are losing ground at an alarming rate.
It's obvious, the DNC has been bought and paid for by corporate interests, and those are not the interests of average working people and we all know it.
Vote establishment! Let the exploitation continue! Yay for big oil, big pharma, big insurance, and Wall Street.
I don't think I've been "brought to heel yet."

[bigwillq]

42. K and R

[tk2kewl]

44. in a sense i don't disagree with the need to reduce expectations

but FFS it should come with some concessions from the 1%

and education and health care are things that we should not have to have less of

[EndElectoral]

65. Wages have remained flat as economic inequality grows. Why is that? Good post.

[Johnny2X2X]

69. Sanders and Clinton agree on almost everything

That's a fact. Hilary and Bernie would both make great presidents. And either deserve our respect and support. Whoever wins between the two will need all of our help to stop a fascist dictator from taking over the country.

[bvf]

101. That's only because

the weathervane has been well greased.

Pay attention, will you?

[BernieforPres2016]

150. No, when you look at what they do versus what they say

They agree on very little; not on campaign finance reform, not on trade deals, not on single payer healthcare system, not on taxes, not on foreign policy. One is honest, one is a liar. One is in the pockets of special interests, one is not. They are not at all alike.

[daleanime]

70. K&R.....

[George II]

75. Hillary Clinton will still win the Democratic nomination and be elected President.

[Android3.14]

85. You say that as if it were a good thing

But most of us hear it as the death knell of democracy and the escalation of war.

She is such a polarizing figure, so many distrust her, and her loyalties so suspicious that she will never accomplish anything that will benefit regular folks.

[George II]

86. Most democrats disagree:

[ismnotwasm]

110. It's an excellent thing

[Logical]

172. LOL, ok. nt

[SoapBox]

83. Manipulation at it's finest.

And I say, Fuck that Shit.

[KoKo]

96. "The New Normal" is what Wall Street and Center Right Economists

have called the US Economy since the 2008 Banker/Wall Street Trader caused crash. Those of us who read financial news (for business reasons) have followed this.

Think about that: "The New Normal." Hillary is so embedded with Wall Street that her very speeches include their own words and position papers. That's why they pay her big money for speeches. She is Wall Street's Ambassador and Spokeswoman.

[Major Hogwash]

127. "Hillary is Wall Street's ambassador" is right on the money!!

She represents the worst American level of greed in over 100 years, proudly, I might say.

[WillyT]

109. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[SoLeftIAmRight]

112. A cold hard slap of reality

many thanks

[Major Hogwash]

131. Like a wet fish!

People have to wake up to how rigged the system is, or there will be no change whatsoever.

[JDPriestly]

117. A vote for Hillary is a vote for the oligarchs, a vote for an America without a future.

It's a vote for continuing to fight over the scraps of what is left of what was a great country.

And campaign finance is at the heart of the issue.

Campaign finance and all the corruption it brings.

A vote for Hillary is a vote for corruption.

[zentrum]

118. Brilliant!

[NCTraveler]

120. Took me until I reached middle age...

But I finally made the squad!!!!

[NurseJackie]

142. See? All your hard work paid off! :-D

And that pleated skirt looks adorable on you!

[NCTraveler]

146. It's amazing kind of you to notice.

I'm blushing!!!!

[Major Hogwash]

126. Which is why I will never vote for Hillary.

As if we can expect more wars, worse wages, and more jobs going overseas, because it is her turn to run this country in the ground.
Or something like that.

[monicaangela]

129. Bingo!

I remember not too long ago this same woman was trying to tell us she was flat broke.

&ebc=ANyPxKrtI3ekael8uPHYI-WoFyDlaQTsSPKiBmT2aaTZBvZgxj6_xhHn1nb7WL3n6l-XDPI2JUFfi7-HCg3KgInbnzmxiYBh3Q

[lumberjack_jeff]

132. dude.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

136. Join Hillary in a fight for stagnation!

[hifiguy]

141. Or else Goldman may stop leaving a few crumbs behind

for the proletariat to fight over!

[AlbertCat]

137. Bingo!

K&R

[hifiguy]

139. K/R for the undisputed TRUTH.

[Dem2]

147. I don't hear this message

I guess I'm not listening closely enough?

[CoffeeCat]

153. This is the entire gist of her campaign

and she mocks Sanders for wanting things (like single payer, free college tuition and the repeal of Glass Steagall). These are things that other countries have AND HAVE HAD FOR YEARS!!

But "We The People" in this country can't have these things because the corporations don't want them. And the corporations have paid politicians like Hillary Clinton to destroy our chances of having them.

That's the only reason that these things are mock-worthy in this country!

"It's just too, too hard. I'm so sorry America! Besides, I'm late for my $255,000 speech at Goldman Sachs and after that I've got a dinner with the health-insurance lobby. Remember! It's just too impossible to get these things done! Never forget that."

[AzDar]

154. Truth.

[Ikonoklast]

156. See: Fed Chairman Paul Volcker.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5615539


All is going according to plan.

The 1% will win, if it's Clinton or Trump, won't really matter.


The rest of us lose.

[Duval]

163. K&R. nt

[Phlem]

167. Spot on.

[Recoverin_Republican]

169. Republican Operatives Try to Help Bernie Sanders: "We'll win every state if Bernie's their nominee."

The GOP is salivating for a Sanders candidacy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-01-19/republican-operatives-are-trying-to-help-bernie-sanders

Republican operatives are having a strange crush on Bernie Sanders.
During Sunday night’s Democratic debate, the Republican National Committee made the unusual move of sending no fewer than four real-time e-mails to reporters defending the self-described democratic socialist from attacks by Hillary Clinton or echoing his message against her. Based on their content, one could be forgiven for thinking the RNC communiques came from the Sanders campaign.

One RNC e-mail, which was titled “Clinton’s Misleading Health Care Attack,” defended the Vermont senator from what it described as “the Clinton campaign’s inaccurate remarks on Sanders’ single-payer plan,” and quoted news articles that featured rebuttals of her arguments. A second message countered Clinton’s attacks on Sanders over gun control by pointing out her gun-friendly statements in the past. Two other e-mails sought to bolster Sanders’ case that Clinton is too close to Wall Street and the drug industry.

Sean Spicer, the chief strategist and spokesman for the RNC, spent much of the evening tweeting Sanders-friendly commentary on the debate, often with the pro-Sanders hashtag #FeelTheBern. At one point, Spicer gently chided Sanders for what he deemed a poor response to a question and added, “come on we are trying to help u.”

~~
~~

Meanwhile, American Crossroads, a group co-founded by Karl Rove, is airing an ad in Iowa bolstering a core tenet of Sanders’s case against Clinton: that she has received large sums of campaign contributions from Wall Street, and therefore can't be trusted to crack down on big banks. “Hillary rewarded Wall Street with a $700 billion bailout, then Wall Street made her a multi-millionaire,” a narrator in the ad says. “Does Iowa really want Wall Street in the White House?”
(more)

[senz]

174. I cannot imagine any Hill fan comprehending Corey Robin

but he'll make very good sense to Bernie supporters.

And it's true: we need to throw that shit out of Washington. It's killing us.

[jie305]

180. photo

just want to say, good picture

[Maedhros]

175. How many progressive ideals are we supposed to discard

just so we can mark the "Female President" box on our bingo card?

[whereisjustice]

176. Clinton doesn't just want to keep you from having a pony, she

wants to take away your job, education, health care, civil rights, protection from wall street scammers.

Hillary and her minions believe you don't deserve help obtaining these basic necessities.

They trust in the magic of the free market. After all, it worked for her.

Of course it helps to marry a president of the USA.

Hillary is what's known as an economic conservative, socially liberal Democrat.

After all lots of rich people are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. So, it's just good business.

But, until we are ravished with poverty, like India or China, Clinton conservatives won't be happy.

Clinton conservatives have given us an MBA mindset to the Democratic Party.

She's reminding us its a corporation, after all.

And like a modern corporation, the DNC takes and takes as much as possible while giving as little as possible.

The difference is pure profit. It's served her well.

[warrprayer]

178. In a nutshell

That sums it up nicely.

[Buzz cook]

181. Another fact free accusation

What is it about some internet posters, that they are unable to make an argument beyond neener neener?

[SkyIsGrey]

182. https://www.jacobinmag.com/author/corey-robin/

nt

[Buzz cook]

184. To quote another Sanders supporter

"Oh look a bunch of blogspam."

Unlike that person I am willing to read links and to engage in argument.

Which article by Corey Robin makes your point? But before that what is the point you want to make?

Does you point have anything to do with the OP not making an argument?

[Ino]

183. The very embodiment of this critique...

complete with applause...

?t=4