I feel the need to say something.

[gcomeau]

I was here in 2008 during The Great Clinton Obama War. At the time I thought it would be fine if Clinton won, but much better if Obama did. As things progressed things got ugly. Accusations flew. Attacks came hard and fast and without reprieve.

"Your candidate is a light weight with no experience!"

"Your candidate can't be trusted!"

"Your candidate is playing dirty!"

"No your candidate is playing dirty!"

"Yours can't possibly win in the General election!"

" Are you fucking crazy.... YOUR candidate is the one who will get slaughtered!"

"Your candidates positions aren't progressive enough, not like MY candidate! Look at this vote they they cast!"



I'm sure this sounds somewhat familiar, and perhaps you may be expecting this to be a "don't worry people, we've been through this before and we'll get through it again" post.

It is not.

Here's the thing. In the early days leading into this election season I made it pretty clear on multiple occasions that I thought anyone who thought Clinton wasn't going to get the nomination was delusional. When people were backing Warren I looked at them like they were crazy. Sure she'd make a great President probably but get real... there's not a chance in hell that's actually happening this election! Then people were backing Bernie and I gave them the same look... the single most progressive member of the Senate? The independent who isn't even afraid of the word socialism? Yeah, he's basically a walking talking progressive issues wishlist of a candidate but come on... while we're making wishes I'd like eternal youth and my own space ship to explore the universe with. Snap out of it people! You're the same guys who thought Kucinich had a chance aren't you? It's going to be Hillary, and sure she's far from ideal on the issues but she's worlds better than the GOP alternatives so let's just get it done.

And then Bernie's numbers started climbing.

And I looked at it and said sure, but so what? There's a ceiling on that. As the liberal base of the party gets to know him of course they're going to love him but how far is he going to be able to expand his base beyond that? His policies may be of the most benefit to the general population but they've never had a historical tendency to show an understanding of that before... what will make them now? And Clinton just kept barreling along, mostly ignoring the guy way out on her left who clerly wasn't a threat to her nomination except to toss some compliments his way now and then.

And then his numbers climbed some more. And they went beyond the liberal base of the party. And they kept climbing. And the General election match-up polling started coming out... and wtf was going on here? The electorate of the UNITED STATES was open to the idea of someone with properly progressive social and economic proposals? He'd been called the Socialist umpteen thousand times across all the major networks and it wasn't tanking his support levels? Seriously? Had I slipped into a parallel universe where a significantly larger chunk of the US electorate made decisions based on their best interest all of a sudden? Well holy shit... there may actually be a semi-plausible chance that we could have not just a Democratic president, but an actual all out no two ways about it gold plated progressive one! Isn't that something.

And then it started. The inevitable escalation of the war. Now there was a clear threat to Clinton's nomination and of course she was going to fight. But this is also where we diverge from the expected "we've done this before it'll be ok" narrative. Because we're not just seeing attacks on the candidate like we did in 2008. It's not just "your guy isn't ready". It's not just "your guy can't win". It's not even just "your guy won't do what he's saying he'll do" or "your guy isn't as progressive on the issue as my candidate is!"

It's also been "your guy wants to establish universal healthcare? He wants to spend the nations tax receipts on college educations instead of foreign invasions? Pfft... he just wants to hand out 'free stuff' and spend all our money!" declared in condescending tones.

WTF?

Look, I would understand an attack on Sanders elect-ability, Wasn't long ago I was making that attack. I would understand an attack on his ability to actually deliver on promises to enact policies the progressive members of this site have been dreaming of for as long as I've been here... we do know how the GOP in Congress conduct themselves after all and obstruction is the only play in their playbook. FFS, I would even understand an attack on his civil rights credentials... I would call it laughable bullshit but at least it would be an argument for the right POSITION.


But to attack THOSE POLICIES THEMSELVES? The policies we have been calling for here for year after year after year after year? To frame them in identical terms to the Republicans? And have that candidates supporters then just shrug it off and keep barreling on cheering as if it's business as usual in a primary fight? Ummm, no. Emergency stop. Out of bounds. Flag on the play. That is absolutely not ok. If anything should set off wailing alarm sirens in the mind of every single person on this board it is the form of those attacks. And if it hasn't done it in yours you are maybe just a teeny bit too wrapped up in cheer leading your candidate and need to take a step back and do a little mirror gazing, then if you still want your choice to be the nominee put some damn pressure on her to shape the fuck up and knock that shit off... assuming you can still trust that those attacks aren't reflective of how she actually feels on the subject.

This is NOT the same thing as what went on in 2008. It isn't. We are not just seeing attacks directed at candidates, we are seeing one of the camps launch an attack at the basic fundamental principles we are all supposed to be championing just because the other candidates bonafides on fighting for those principles cannot be assailed and so those principles must be discredited. And there is no arguing that that is ok, or politics as usual.

It has to stop. People defending it have to stop. People overlooking it have to stop.

Otherwise, wtf are we here for?

[daleanime]

1. K&R.....

[Divernan]

2. Eloquently stated! Thank you.

[Dragonfli]

3. Well thought out and after reading all your hard work, I highly recommend this post! /nt

[PeterGM]

4. +1 /nt

[merrily]

110. +1 I recommend your recommendation!

[MaeScott]

136. Kicked. nt

[EdwardBernays]

5. apparently

we're meant to be here to support Hillary Clinton... or else.

[Ferd Berfel]

17. VOte for HIllary

or the puppy Get's it....



...or the puppy get's it....

[mak3cats]

6. A wholehearted K&R! Thank you... (eom)

[tk2kewl]

7. and it isn't just on DU

people who have spent their lives fighting for these principles are doing the same. and some wonder why there are rumblings on left about green party and write in votes

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

31. Like I have said before.

Now is the time for a real progressive populist movement, but the message needs to be clear and not overly complex and it needs to be repeated over and over to drive it home into the minds of the people.

Then Bernie will win

[NurseJackie]

8. I'm optimistic that things get better after Hillary secures the nomination ...

... Super Tuesday is coming up very soon, and shortly afterward it will be mathematically clear that she's got the nomination.

I agree it's frustrating and disheartening ... but I try to remain hopeful that cooler heads will prevail and that everyone will return to behaving like mature and thoughtful adults.

Go, Democrats!

[gcomeau]

15. I think you may be missing the point.

This is not just a "everyone is being too mean to each other, boy I hope we can all forgive and forget later" concern.

We have a candidate running for the Democratic nomination by explicitly trashing core fundamental progressive policy positions and giving credence to the Republican objections to them, for the obvious reason that she will never be able to credibly run as the more progressive candidate on those positions. That is not just a matter of hoping the hurt feelings won't linger too long, that is doing fundamental damage to the policy goals we are all supposed to be advocating here.


It is one thing to tell people afterwards "Look, we all want the same things. Sorry your candidate lost and some harsh words were said but let's all get together now! Come On! Go Team!"

It is entirely another to tell people afterwards "Look, I know she explicitly declared she is opposed to all those things we want and the Republicans are right about all our treasured policy goals... but let's all get together because we all want... umm..... ummm... Go Team!"


Yes, she's better than the Republican alternative. Yes there's the Supreme Court. But you can only piss all over the fundamental bedrock principles people stand for so much and then still expect them to support you afterwards because you claim to be on their side instead of them reaching the breaking point where enough is enough and if a few years in the political wilderness is what is necessary to discipline the party and get it back to supporting the correct policies is what is seen as necessary incresing numbers of people will start making that choice.


This attacking of progressive positions needs to stop NOW. Not after Super Tuesday. Not after the convention. Right. Damn. Now.

[NurseJackie]

18. Well ... I wish you the best of luck.

It's certainly a worthwhile endeavor, but I'm not optimistic that you'll find success. (Still, it can't hurt to try. Right?)

[tk2kewl]

27. do you think that should Hillary get the nomination...

she will champion these progressive ideas and follow through should she become president?

[Phlem]

54. Crickets.

That's what I get too when I start asking substantive questions.

[tk2kewl]

55. i asked nicely... maybe she's not online right now

[MrMickeysMom]

94. You might be right, but I don't think so...

This poster doesn't get it, hasn't gotten it, and frankly, comes off as not caring less about these principles as they need to occur. It's enough to get there pragmatically, and that is where the argument fizzles out.

[tk2kewl]

114. Or maybe she has me on ignore

[MrMickeysMom]

119. Hey... That's MY excuse!!!

[JDPriestly]

139. I had one answer with some substance several months ago, and I ask the questions

frequently.

The Hillary crowd is not about policy. I don't know why they are voting for her.

They don't seem to be able to articulate it.

A couple of people have admitted that they think that people would not appreciate a college education if it were free. I ask them whether the children of rich parents who can afford to pay for college appreciate their education even though it is free. I get no answer.

I would like to know which of Hillary's stands on the issues her supporters like. No answer. They say well, Bernie can't get his proposals through a Republican Congress.

I say, let him try. Let all of us try. I think the nation is ready for Bernie's plans.

The day when the average American had middle class money, assets or wealth have gone the way of the factories that fed American kids for decades.

It's now down to sharing and trying to help each other. Yes. People shop at the malls for low priced Chinese junk. But that is not the same as having enough money in the bank to pay the co-pays on your health insurance or pay back your student loans or, wouldn't it be wonderful if possible, pay back your children's student loans.

Why is anyone supporting Hillary? We may never find out. Because the Hillary supporters generally keep their posts short and information free.

The ones that are just rows of Ha! Ha! represent the spirit of all of the Hillary posts. Meaningless. A waste of bandwidth.

[Phlem]

161. Exactly.

There's this thread where I got into it with a Hillary supporter. I played his substance free argument for a while but when I asked something about issues, no reply back. But he/she still proceeded to hound me with his/her grade school antics ironically accusing me of the very thing he/she was doing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1308846

They have absolutely no substance, zero.

Thanks for the response, it helps to know I'm not the only one noticing it.

Keep on keeping on my friend and I will continue as well, with the facts.

[JDPriestly]

166. I honestly wonder whether some of them are just paid to keep Hillary's name on this board.

It's unlikely. Why would anyone waste the money? But there is no thought or substance behind the Hillary posts. At most they talk about polls or post a video or a link to someone else's article. No original heartfelt discussions about why they support Hillary. It's puzzling to me. Do they just not think much? Do they not really ask themselves why they are supporting her?

[Rilgin]

53. He is saying the old way of just giving lip service to progressives for votes is not working

For years, progressives, liberals, leftists (whatever name you choose) have been wooed by the conservative politicians running with lip service to their goals. This is considered the norm, run left in the primaries then centrist in the general then practical realities to govern. This is the pundit and centrist model for how government should work.

For a number of reasons, this game is both more transparent this year and not good enough. Hillary tried to do this with lip service but it just gave more momentum to Bernie because he is not the lip service, he is for the policies and will not follow the same mold. Her words are falling on more perceptive ears who are not willing to believe them because of past statements that directly contradict them and a history of being taken for granted and lied to.

Hillary, your candidate, after trying the traditional lying triangulating model of keeping the left appeased with words, has now taken a different approach. The one in the OP. She is just trashing the left and our policies and goals. You might want to read the OP. This has not been done before by a Democratic candidate except mildly in Sistah Souljah moments where candidates show their "independance". Hillary is now trashing the fundaments of what kept the left in the democratic party.

It is a great OP and will be ignored by the Hillary Supporters on this board and by Hillary because they can not really conceive that the left has finally realized that lip service is not good enough.

[JDPriestly]

138. Which of Hillary's stands on the issues do you like?

[Ron Green]

21. "Nurse Jackie" isn't paying attention to what you're saying.

And she's got lots of company.

[nashville_brook]

72. understand tho, this is what Clinton has stood for since entering public life

her supporters are being honest and transparent when they express their disgust for "free stuff." it's the neoliberal wing of the party that has been trying so hard to take back power. I believe them when they say they really don't support universal healthcare.

[noiretextatique]

75. It really appears to be a class war

For the most. I can't imagine that poorer people are so enthusiastic for Clinton.

[nashville_brook]

77. so far the voting demos reflect that.

there's of course, some confusion in NV where workers were given paid time off but had to caucus with their bosses, so who knows how that's stacking up.

[merrily]

111. +1 Missed the point indeed.

[HassleCat]

128. I wish I didn't have to say this, but you are wrong.

Not completely wrong, but wrong enough to allow our party to forge ahead with its current strategy, saying, "We all love these basic principles that unite us!" then acting as if those principles don't matter. Our party gets away with this because it brings in money, and money trumps values, money trumps integrity, money trumps damn near everything. This pursuit of dollars made us the minority party, and we're on the verge of being irrelevant, where the Republican Party was for so many years.

[Android3.14]

65. Reading comprehension fail

[chervilant]

73. You've totally missed the point.

And, thankfully, with each passing day, it's looking less and less likely that we'll have to tolerate Hi11ary as our nominee.

[KPN]

129. Might have been more effective if you'd posted only the last two sentences.

[Jane Austin]

9. I'm so glad

you felt the need to say something.

Bravo.

[ellennelle]

10. very well said

thx for the perspective.

amazing how many folks here did not appear to even read it.

talk about desperate.

[mikimurphy]

11. Thank you

I agree with what you are saying. Unfortunately it seems that Bernie threatens the entire democratic establishment who do not really want change. For me, no matter what the polls say, my issue in fighting tooth and nail for Bernie is
CLIMATE CHANGE
He is the only one who gets it. All the other stuff, I agree with him for the most part. But that one, along with getting money out of politics, is the biggest issue facing us all.

[TTUBatfan2008]

20. I think the money is the big issue that hurts every other issue...

Fossil fuel industry buys off politicians, so nothing is ever done about climate change. Same thing happens on just about every other issue. Follow the money and it will usually give a good idea of why so many bad things never change.

[Locrian]

112. yes

Hand in hand and time running out. This is THE most important election of my life. It's not acceptable to kick the can down the road for another 4 years to feed the already fat cats.

[TryLogic]

160. Yes, it's the money. As someone has said, "It's the corruption, stupid".

[marions ghost]

50. Welcome to DU

[NEOhiodemocrat]

93. Climate change!

Yes, why are more people not pushing for action against climate change? To my husband and I it is a top of the list issue.

[Matariki]

12. You are right. This is a war for the soul of the party.

http://benjaminstudebaker.com/2016/02/05/why-bernie-vs-hillary-matters-more-than-people-think/

[cantbeserious]

108. This Revolt Has Been Building For Years - The DWS, DNC, DLC, Third-Way Has Only Themselves To Blame

eom

[NJCher]

132. Excellent piece

Everyone needs to understand this; the writer is highly skilled at making economic history compelling reading.

Cher

[MisterP]

13. he's popular because he's needed

the New Dems were designed to win seats by ensuring a steady cashflow (the DNC went bankrupt in the 90s) and that meant jettisoning everything the party stood for in practice while doubling down on it in rhetoric: the party was hollowed out and unspeakable things were done to it as it was strapped to the collective crotch of the oligarchy

[elleng]

14. Indeed, Otherwise, wtf are we here for?

THANK YOU!

[Armstead]

16. Great Post and I agree

[Punkingal]

19. Great OP...absolutely spot on!

[MadDAsHell]

22. I LOVE your post, but Democrats don't think that way anymore. Power over principle.

"Winning" an election instead of "winning" for the American people.

Destroying people (Republicans) instead of destroying Republican's bad ideas.

This is 2016 politics.

[Kittycat]

40. Wrong. Politicians don't think that way. Democrats do!

It's time they listened to us!!!

[Lorien]

135. Exactly. As I keep saying; it's just the Superbowl to them

and they cheer for their favorite team simply because they always have called it their favorite team. There are no other reasons; they just want team Blue to win because that will make them the champion. Issues and consequences don't matter in the least.

[LondonReign2]

164. Faux-Democrat Third Wayers do think that way

[pengu]

23. I agree, this is an attack on progressive policy itself

It sounds like Romney's campaign.

[davidthegnome]

24. Agreed.

I made this argument the other day in a different thread, but you put it into words far better than I did.

We all know that none of the policies Sanders is talking about amount to "giving away free stuff". We all know that we'll have to pass progressive tax legislation to accomplish them, that we'll have to fight congress, the senate, democrats and republicans alike to make these things happen. We all know it's going to be hard work.

It strikes me as extremely dishonest to be saying that "Sanders is promising free this, free that, free everything!" No. He isn't. He is supporting principles and goals that the vast majority of us here have supported... have wanted, for a long, long time. Things that just might ease the burden on the poor and middle class. Things that would move our whole society forward in a way that has not been done since the time of FDR.

Democratic principles... democratic policies... Sanders is promoting them, fighting for them - and challenging our Country, and it's established powers, in suggesting, even demanding, that we fight for them too. I'm with him, regardless of who wins this race between him and Clinton... these things can be done and should be done. We should all be on board with that.

Universal healthcare coverage. Tuition free college education (ask the people of other first world Countries what it's like...). Raising the minimum wage, workers rights, civil rights, there's a lot of great stuff about the Sanders campaign, however you may feel about Sanders or his chances of winning.

In closing... would just like to say.... YES WE FUCKING CAN!

[democrank]

25. Ted Cruz sends people out to actually lie about his opponents.

It appears he will do and say anything to win. I surely hope this never happens on the Democratic side.

[LondonReign2]

165. Yes, that would be bad. Bad indeed.

[democrank]

170. And if it happened to be David Brock

that would be very bad.

[LondonReign2]

172. We can take comfort in the knowledge that at least no Democrat would sink so low

as to employ a man that called Anita Hill "slutty" and "nutty"

[suffragette]

26. K&R

[1monster]

28. K & R

Nothing left to be added.

[ebayfool]

29. Wish there was a rec button I could pound a brazillion times! Yes, yes, yes! You get it!

And the camps doing the attacks on our core, bedrock, Democratic principles refuse to see the fury they raise when they do so!

Dayum, I wish I could write like you - you put words to my feelings so well!

[VulgarPoet]

30. "Integrity is for paupers." --Tim Russert

Apparently, a lot of people seem to believe that's an acceptable ethos for a candidate.

[WillyT]

32. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[ybbor]

33. Well said

The right-center part of the party (and I purposely didn't say center-right) doesn't care about those things anymore. They've got theirs and too bad if you don't.

It's pretty saw but unfortunately is the case. The dissenting opinion posted above only confirms my view of this.

The party is no longer the party of the downtrodden, it is controlled by the wealthy elite who have more in common with the GOP whom we are supposedly the opposition. It is more closely related to the Reagan era GOP.

The fact that Hillary is even discussing scaling back on abortion rights speaks exactly to that.

[SammyWinstonJack]

117. Yes, they've got theirs, but are they so sure they won't be thrown to the wolves

at some point? No matter what some believe, in the end, WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.

[Raster]

156. THEY. ARE. THE. WOLVES...

...all dressed up in Democrat's clothing. And we're all just lambs to the slau... ballot box.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

34. You nailed it.

We expected the usual sniping and whining and complaining about how mean and rude the "other side" is. That happens during primaries; people get fired up and forget their manners. But, as you said, this is different. When the Hillary camp started objecting to policies that have been part of the Democratic Party's core beliefs, and complaining - a la Mitt Romney - about people wanting "free stuff," I got to wondering what the hell was happening. That's not just fighting over which candidate could best promote the party's fundamental principles; it's actually rejecting them as being either unrealistic, or too, um, socialist. I expected red-baiting from the GOP, but not here on DU.

[cantbeserious]

35. Integrity - Thy Name Is No Longer The Democratic Party - Now The Corporate Corrupt Democratic Party

eom

[highprincipleswork]

36. K and R. Remember the video of Hillary bristling at Democrats attacking Universal Healthcare?

[Arazi]

37. A thousand times yes!!!

[panader0]

38. Another recommendation.

[Duval]

39. K&R! I agree and am glad for your OP.

[Kittycat]

41. Great post. Thank you!

[MuseRider]

42. Nicely done.

This is amazing, you write well and your points are well made.

If I could write as well I would say the same things but I do not so thank you so much for putting this down like you did.

It almost brought a tear to my eye, probably fueled by the fact that I am going to see Bernie tomorrow (never thought I would have the chance) and am so uplifted by the new policy ideas of looking forward with good will.

Thank you. Please post more!

[The Traveler]

43. It's like the issues don't matter

And when I try to raise them, or my very serious problem supporting these stances on the issues, I am told, "Would you rather have a Republican?" It's like a form of emotional blackmail. "Shut up. This is the way it is ... go along with it or else."

I've given up on trying to discuss these matters with Clinton supporters. And if they truly represent this party ... I dunno what I'm gonna do. I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.

Trav

[passiveporcupine]

44. Best post I've seen here

assuming you can still trust that those attacks aren't reflective of how she actually feels on the subject.

Thanks...we really do need to challenge this. I wish you would post more often. You have a way with words and you see the forest, in spite of the trees that cloud most people's thoughts.

[99th_Monkey]

45. KnR !! The Clinton lemmings have no shame, just more of the same. nt

[Mike__M]

46. Clear sighted observation

Thank you, gcomeau.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

47. Unbelievable good post! Thank you!

[Mbrow]

48. K&R Thank for posting

[NBachers]

49. Best post ever! Thank you for putting this down so eloquently

[rnk6670]

51. Complete agreement

We have an opportunity here make a true change in not only the national discourse but the actual direction of our nation. I, for one, won't be letting it fall victim to a false choice.

[PinkTiger]

52. Both Parties are in a state of change

Watching the debates and reading commentary, it is obvious that Republicans are in a mell of a hess right now. Trump has changed the dynamics by hijacking their party. And we have seen some things that are very strange and scary, heard things strange and scary from the mouths of politicians that I've never heard.
As for us, the Democrats, we have been changing over the past 16 years. When Obama ran in 2008, I was a Hillary supporter and was dismayed by all the vitriol here on DU. When he won the nomination, I voted for him and I've been pleased to have him as President. Now, Hillary and Bernie. I'm still supporting Hillary. I like her. I'm not going to try convincing anyone else here - you all have your own minds.
But the vitriol on the Bernie side seems worse than on the Hillary side. Maybe it is my take - after all, my candidate preference is being threatened. But that is how it seems to me.
We are all just going to have to evolve. Let's see how it plays out, and then talk about it.
It is going to be interesting folks.

[gcomeau]

69. You're missing the point.

But the vitriol on the Bernie side seems worse than on the Hillary side. Maybe it is my take - after all, my candidate preference is being threatened. But that is how it seems to me

This is not a post about vitriol from either side. Vitriol we could get through. We've done it before, we'll do it again.

But there is a world of difference between attacking your opponent and attacking the core beliefs of the progressive base of the entire party for no better reason than that you cannot get to the left of your opponent on those principles. You can expect people to get over you being mean to their candidate of choice. But that is not attacking their candidate that is attacking THEM. Then expecting them to go out and vote for you afterwards. And that is a whole other problem.


To be clear, I stated in the OP I went into this election season assuming Clinton would win and nobody else had a shot. Bernie has since far exceeded my performance expectations but I'm a realist who can read polls and as much as he's improved his odds and I hope he pulls it off I can still see that Clinton is the far more likely nominee. And she needs to STOP THIS SHIT if she doesn't want to drive away large portions of the progressive base in the General.


And if she's not going to do it on her own her supporters need to start contacting the campaign and making it clear they expect it to end.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

56. If these things aren't what we are fighting for

Why are we here?

Why should I give a damn?

Seriously.

[Buzz cook]

57. OK here's your money shot.

It's also been "your guy wants to establish universal healthcare? He wants to spend the nations tax receipts on college educations instead of foreign invasions? Pfft... he just wants to hand out 'free stuff' and spend all our money!" declared in condescending tones.

Is that the reality? Or is it a percepction?

In health care we have the ACA which works. Not well of course, it could be improved by a public option and reform in how we pay for pharmaceuticals. Even so it was extremely difficult to pass.

Sanders proposes the moderate single payer system, a more liberal option would be a national health system ala Great Britain. To do so is to put the current system at risk and to do so with opposition control of the House of Representatives.

Will Sanders offer a single payer bill only to have to veto it after it goes through the congressional meat grinder? That seems to be the most likely scenario.

Elizabeth Warren put forward legislation that would lower interest rates for student loans. It failed. If that relatively modest reform couldn't pass what chance does free collage have?
That is not to say reform is impossible, just that we have to be mindful of the meat grinder.

I'll need a citation about the free stuff, our money thing if you meant it came from the Clinton campaign.

People use short cuts in argument. I'd wager that the arguments you assert are examples of those short cuts not the arguments themselves.

What does that leave us with? Tone.

[gcomeau]

64. I'm not saying it came from Clinton's campaign.

I'm saying it came from Clinton's mouth. She mockingly characterized Sanders proposals for health care and college tuition as him just offering "free this and free that and free everything" with condescension dripping from every word. She might as well have been Rand Paul or Ted Cruz up there. She knows fucking well that that line of attack is the exact same bullshit Republicans have been spewing against Democrats for decades.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/clintons-dig-at-sanders-free-everything-came-months-after-she-was-mad-at-bush-for-same-comment/


And I'm not even going to get into her attacks on Bernie advocating Single Payer as somehow undoing all of the ACA and taking health insurance AWAY from people.


There is a world of difference between going after Sanders and going after bedrock Democratic principles and legitimizing GOP rhetoric just because she can't run to the left of Sanders on those principles.

[Kall]

109. That's the reality.

One response, which I would have disagreed with but would have been defensible, would have been for the Clinton campaign to say that "I don't agree that single-payer, despite the merits of it that I have voiced in the past, is the way to achieve universal health care. I believe we can get there by doing X, Y and Z and that is what I will push for in office." Which the Republicans won't cooperate with her on either, no matter how much "care and feeding" she does. It would be harder in many ways to build public support for that because unlike single-payer Medicare which the Republicans have never tried to repeal due to public popularity, the ACA has been underwater in public opinion since the day it was passed and the Republicans have paid no political price for trying to repeal it 60 times due to its lack of public support.

But that's not what happened. Instead, we got Hillary and Chelsea going out and saying that Bernie Sanders would dismantle Medicare, take peoples' health care away, levelling Republican attacks that he would raise taxes (omitting the minor detail that they would save far more by not paying private health insurance costs), and pretending he would repeal the ACA like the Republicans want to do (omitting the detail that the ACA would only ever be replaced if the more inclusive, cheaper plan had already been passed.) And her health care plan consists entirely of 6 or 7 bullet points of vague generalities on her website. And one of them is "As Senator, I got funding for responders after 9/11."

[Arazi]

58. ^^^^This^^^^

Exactly this

[Dustlawyer]

59. Awesome post!!!

[Cassiopeia]

60. There are some here that would rather see the entire party burn to the ground

than face another loss.

Hillary is with them in that thinking.

[Uncle Joe]

61. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, gcomeau.

[LiberalArkie]

62. Thank you.

I am sorry that so many people feel that the Democratic Party is like the Army football team and the Republicans are the Navy team. Just a game, it is the only the game that matters. After the game is over we all go out and have a beer and plan for the next game.

Elections are not football games, elections are about peoples lives, about how people will be treated and respected. Most of the Bernie people understand however to the HRC side it is just a game. That is all it is. Because they always come out on top whoever wins.

[Juicy_Bellows]

63. Very well stated - KICK.

[jtuck004]

66. “It is not truth that matters, but victory.” ― A. Hitler is credited with the quote, but he wasn't

the first to live by that philosophy. Nor the last.

[Dems to Win]

67. If Democrats are the No We Can't Party, count me out

Great OP

[NRaleighLiberal]

68. Simply superb. Thanks. Kick and rec

[stage left]

70. K&R

Wonderful Op. It's not Bernie I revere, but the principles he stands for and the policies he supports.

[Snotcicles]

71. Giving this one a 9.3 K&R. nt

[libtodeath]

74. I have seen people attack FDR in defense of Hillary

so sad.

[noiretextatique]

76. Just saw that in another thread eom

[Bangbangdem]

78. Makes me nuts!

FDR didn't just save the country from general abject poverty, he saved capitolism. It would be wise to consider this when the people see this country reach another fundamental tipping point. FDR probably prevented a bloody revolution. I am also surprised that all those radical groups that existed around the 1st world war haven't begun to pop up again.

[SujiwanKenobee]

79. Fear

Perhaps Hil supporters are overall more comfortable with incremental change? They want to keep Republicans out of the Presidency, but the things Bernie supporters want are coming up against what Hil people want to protect. It's fear of the unknown and how it will potentially affect one's personal life. Don't upset the perceived gains...

How often do we get a real groundswell that will crack this dark, crystallized system that so many are content to accept, crumbs and all?

[Oilwellian]

80. Great OP

:kick:

[Thespian2]

81. K & R!!!

Eloquent summary...agree 100%...

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

82. I wasn't surprised at all.

Let's face it, these folks are 'left of center "Democrats" ' simply because the Republican Party has move so far to the right, leaving them behind, while at the same time, the infiltrators of the 'Third Way' have pushed Democrats so far to the right as well.

What was the 'center' 30 or 40 years ago is far to the left of the folks who embrace Clintonian views on policy.

[secondwind]

83. K&R for your wonderful post, gcomeau!

[Jed28]

84. I've been a fan of Bernie for years...

IMHO, Bernie is making a stand for the right issues at the right time in our history. Though he is facing a huge uphill battle against the political and media establishment, he seems committed to see this thing play out to the convention. We all need a "New Deal".

[Paka]

85. K&R

Beautiful post!

[Rebkeh]

86. Tell us how you really feel!

No, seriously. Tell it!

[Moostache]

87. Simply can not write it better myself.

That was an outstanding post and a clarion call to progressives/liberals everywhere to stop playing the horse race game and stop cheerleading a name over principles and purpose.

I am NOT a Republican because of the things I hold dear and the principles I cherish and desire for my countrymen as well as myself.
I am NOT a Republican because I want "America" to be more than a chant or a slogan, I want it to be an idea again, a true beacon.

I AM a Democrat because the party platform supports equality, inclusion, fairness and a government that works to protect ITS OWN PEOPLE while maintaining a proper influence and standing in the wider world.

I AM a Democrat because universal access to healthcare in America IS A RIGHT, not a privilege for the rich or prosperous only.
I AM a Democrat because of all the things that Bernie Sanders wants to fight for - and I LOATHE the term "free stuff".

Thank you for your post!
It makes me feel better to know that introspection and thinking are still alive and well in the DU!

[Enthusiast]

88. Kicked and recommended! Lets shoot for 300 recommendations on this one!

[Dont call me Shirley]

89. Progressive Democratic Programs are not to be attacked by leading democrats, PERIOD! Well said,

gcomeau

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. Bernie isn't a threat to only Hillary

In fact I'd say that she's a proxy for our actual opponents.

[neverforget]

91. K & R! Well said!

[CharlotteVale]

92. Great post!

[libdem4life]

95. Add me to the list.,..great post. Thank you.

[warrprayer]

96. Kickety Kick Kick

And rec!

[MrMickeysMom]

97. The timing of this comment shows a careful observation said with more objectivity than I can...

I'm very glad you posted that observation. You've long been here. I tend to get caught up in a defensive posture. Call it my warrior ability that my fuse can be lit.

Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you for that observation. I don't know about others, but I have to keep reeling myself back to the issues and not get caught up in what I call baiting commentary. I shall try and try again... because if I can KEEP IT to the issues, those principles will fill lots of threads.

[Dem2]

98. I agree

I find that line of attack to be out-of-bounds. This is what we fight for. We may not get there in our lifetimes (to steal a line from MLK), but we must never stop fighting.

[ms liberty]

99. So well said. K&R. n/t

[Kall]

100. Well put

[renate]

101. I am very glad you felt the need to say something

... you said it extremely well.

[randys1]

102. I feel the need to say nothing, because when I do tell the truth I am silenced

[NaturalHigh]

145. Your self-pity thing is really getting old.

[Bluenorthwest]

150. That's hilarious, the Straight White Male is 'silenced'? Let me tell you something, LGBT people

and other minorities have been attacked by law, by force and by bloody violence and never had the privilege of falling silent. If you can't bear up to hearing disagreement to your Moderate Centrist point of view that's fairly pitiful.

Speak your mind. Only you can silence you. Straight White Moderate Males claiming they are oppressed are a hoot and a half.

[PatrynXX]

103. One thing I know is if the media ignores him

but the real media does not ($$$ vs unpaid independent) hey when people have been lied to long enough something snaps. heck if you have the Chamber of Commerce openly saying Hillary is for TPP use your head. yeah use it. Bernie is where he is because we .. us American voters put him there. To attack Bernie is to attack the voting public. and thats just senile. Like true I've said from day one she's a conservadem but I didn't expect her supporters to actually defend her to the point of looking like Republicans doing it. That was totally shocking to me. If she somehow cheats to win, there will be a split in the part like back in the day some party called the Democrats split from the Republican party (bye bye Wigs ) It may be that time. I hope not but If we are fighting over common Democratic ideas as if they are evil suddenly, something is very wrong.

[Locrian]

116. interesting ...

>> If she somehow cheats to win, there will be a split in the part like back in the day some party called the Democrats split from the Republican party (bye bye Wigs ) It may be that time.

My thought is: "where do people think the more moderate R's went when the GOP got on the batshit crazy train?" (hint: which candidate is essentially an R?) Seems to me we're just seeing a split based on what "used" to be the conservative (traditional not modern version) R's and the more (progressive) liberal D's.

[farleftlib]

104. Can I ask you one SERIOUS question?

May I hop a ride on your spaceship? Because we are going to elect President Sanders.

Let's dream bigger.

[CdnExtraNational]

105. Transcend and the people will wake up

The one point I never see talked about...

Give the people someone who credibly stands for their populist issues and ...

1) The people will vote for downticket candidates who also support those issues

2) Everyone can all call out those who are standing in the way of these issues and get them voted out

The usual politics involves appearing populist and then after being elected head for the center and then lead from the top down on why those populist goals can't be achieved (usually blaming the other side). Interesting how the centrist isn't even waiting until after the primaries to tell why those populist goals can't be achieved.

[noretreatnosurrender]

106. Thank You For a Fabulous Post

I couldn't agree more.

[JBoy]

107. Brilliant, thank you! N/t

[merrily]

113. Wonderful post. It. You. nailed.

My knee jerk on seeing the headline and first bit: it's yet another of those smarmy, pointless "We have to agree to vote for Hillary--er, I mean, whoever the nominee may be" posts. So glad I kept reading and was proven wrong.

[Jenny_92808]

115. K & R

Bravo!

[mhatrw]

118. We are here to take our marching orders from the top 0.1%.

And they want us all to know that electoral reform, economic fairness, and social justice are simply not realistic.

[DrBulldog]

120. The fundamental questions now are:

1. What in hell are the Hillary supporters supporting? There are a dozen major issues that Americans and Bernie really want, but Hillary says we can't have them!

2. How much more corrupt and dirty and dishonest can the Clinton campaign get? I haven't seen anything like this since Richard Nixon committed secret treason (talked to Viet Nam military into killing the peace plan tentatively agreed upon with President Johnson so he could get elected) during his campaign against Humphreys in 1968.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

121. gcomeau, the way you describe

Bernie's slow but steady rise over the past 9 months reminded me of a winter Dean meetup at a Marie Calendar's restaurant in Pasadena. We were about 20 "screamers" hand-writing letters to Iowa voters. Toward the end, the host gave us the news that Dean had gotten Al Gore's endorsement. We were all ecstatic, and believed he would win.

Of course, this was before cell phones, FaceBook, Instagram, Twitter, etc. I now believe that Bernie owns all the new technology. It's not just Milenials who communicate widely, it's (relatively) old fogies like me. I think those of us with a passion and a history for supporting true Democratic principals will also rise up to implement the changes Bernie espouses. Your post reinforces that belief for me, and I thank you for it.

[mmm413]

122. Well said and I thank you.

[ReallyIAmAnOptimist]

123. Thank you, gcomeau...

...your OP was a real pleasure to read!

Plus the discussion following it--hats off to all you commenters too!

Yeah, I've been banged up pretty bad by the anti-Universal healthcare peeps here. Single Payer was my signature issue in 2008. I was naive to think Obama would actually try to get it done. And so disappointed that we didn't even end up with a Public Option.

We all know it's all about the money. The more than $500 billion/yr the country would save eliminates the pointless zero-value-add middleman and all the associated overhead for providers. But many of those saved billions are profits... and maybe a billion in various CEO's pay, which they have no intention of parting with... hence no "desire" to change anything by our corrupt Congress (and HRC). It's unpatriotic, pathetic, and I'm really sick of it.

[SoapBox]

124. Bravo!

[Hydra]

125. Team Hillary and Hillary herself seem to have declared war on the Democratic party

And it is utterly disquieting to watch as they trample over everything we fought for and against during the Bush Admin abuses and after.

You've utterly nailed it. What are we as a party without our policies, values and goals? And why should we become our enemies in order to "win"?

[onecaliberal]

126. K&R x 100000000

BEST OP in a very long time! Thanks for a perfect articliation of what is happening within the party and why it's not the same as all the other years.

[CarrieLynne]

127. YES!! Bernie is our dream candidate - we have been waiting for him - so lets come thru for him!!!

I been bitchin about the things hes bitchin about for over 20 years - this is IT - its HIM!! common people!!!!

[retrowire]

130. Well said.

You won't see me defending Hillary for that bullshit.

[cui bono]

131. I'm glad you acted on your feeling.

This was a very worthwhile post.

I agree whole heartedly!

.

[Betty Karlson]

133. Third Way or the Highway. Anything to win, right?

Well, it worked in the 20th century... Sort of...

/ sarcasm.

[Lorien]

134. I actually had a Clinton supporter run through a list of GOP talking points

when I questioned Hillary's love of Fracking ("Fracking makes us energy independent!) Keystone XL ( "It will create jobs!&quot NAFTA ("It's just a free market trade agreement like any other. It doesn't cost jobs; too much regulation costs jobs!&quot attacking Iran ("They're a threat to Israel and we need to send a message to the world.&quot Wall Street deregulation ("What really caused the crash was stupid people buying more house than they could afford.&quot and on and on. I asked this fellow if he knew that his positions on the issues made him a Republican, and he became very defensive and said "Hillary is the DEMOCRATIC candidate, and I only vote for Democrats. Sanders is a Socialist and not a real Democrat! Socialism has never worked anywhere in the world!"

Honestly, the DLC has truly achieved it's objective of destroying liberalism within the Democratic party. It's now indistinguishable from the GOP of the 1990s when the DLC first began their campaign to turn Dems into "new Republicans." I never thought that they would get away with it back then, but by God, they sure have, and then some. PLEASE Hillary supporters; THINK HARD ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT YOU'RE SUPPORTING, and WHY!

[JDPriestly]

137. Beautiful statement! Thank you. K&R.

[Major Hogwash]

140. It's imperative that we win back control of the Senate this year!

I'm not eating anymore shit sandwiches for anybody, especially not for the god damned DLC!!
And that is all the Clinton Menu offers.
To hell with the triangulation method the Third Way Democrats have forced on us for the last 28 years!!

If she had coattails, I might consider her; but she doesn't, so I won't.

Grazie for this thread.

That is all.

[IronLionZion]

141. Don't bother voting. All candidates are the same. Elections rigged.

etc.

We are here to end those defeatist myths once and for all.

[LittleGirl]

142. Very well done

I usually ignore long posts like this but after over 400 recs, I reconsidered and you're so right.

I've been a Bernie fan since I saw him on Ed Schultz's and Olbermann's shows back on '07. I had serious "wished he'd run for President" thoughts back then. When he announced, I was totally on board. And it's not because I don't like Hillary, it's because he espouses all of my progressive agenda ideas. I live in Europe so I see every single day Democratic Socialism in its glory. I want to go back to the states again someday but my home country is in shambles now. And I blame it all on the Republicans. The state houses they control are a mess and I lived in the middle finger of the Midwest run by monsters on the other side. They ruined my home state. Just ruined it.

Go Bernie.

[randr]

143. Republican trolling psychops have bespoiled our playground

Disguised as rabid Hillary or Bernie supporters they have brought the mud to the fight and we should be ashamed of our acceptance for the type of rhetoric and responses to each other we tolerate.

[gcomeau]

175. While I'm sure some of that is going on...

... I don't think we can attribute Hillary personally mocking single payer and Bernie's college tuition plan as "free this and free that and free everything" in tones of pure scorn befitting ony GOP presidential nominee as Republican operative trolling.

A stop must be put to that. Immediately.

[myrna minx]

144. Thank you so much for is essay.

Thank you for beautifully describing this primary - and just how different it is this time. I never could have expressed it as eloquently as you.

On edit - I am bookmarking the thread- because I think it's that important. This is one of the most important threads I've read in awhile. Thank you again.

[TheUndecider]

146. Been lurking here for years

I joined today because of your post! Nicely done

[monicaangela]

147. Excellent comment gcomeau...

I find it interesting that those who oppose Bernie Sanders are opposing him not because they do not like his proposals but because they don't feel he can get the things he is proposing implemented. To me that is like saying, I have a million dollars, and I want to spend it on acquiring knowledge, but, I can't get my friends to allow me to spend my money on education. Sometimes I wonder if the electorate realizes that the money these clowns in D.C. are playing with is ours. That being said, why is it that so many are willing to let one party or the other or one candidate or the other tell us what we can or cannot do with our money. Could this be the old racist thinking that went along with the southern strategy. Could it be that some people would love these things but don't feel they should be extended to everyone so therefore "it just can't be done." I understand that many things in this nation are predicated on race so it wouldn't surprise me if that were the reason.

How many people would like to end the wars? Trillions of dollars spent/thrown away on destroying innocent people and nations in order to acquire resources from those nations. Trillions of dollars given to nuclear weaponry that can never be used. Trillions of dollars spent on destruction and we somehow allow that to happen with a shrug of the shoulder and a retort...well, that is the law, congress has appropriated that money and they have the power of the purse. What is wrong with the people of this nation. Will we always continue to allow others to dictate what we will do with OUR resources? When will be a good time for the people of this nation to stand together and say, we would like to have better, better healthcare, not insurance, better infrastructure, not war, better education, not debt in exchange for education, and above all, when are we going to start rejecting candidates that tell us we can't have these things? I wonder...

[A Simple Game]

148. The number of people that put gender and party before people and Country never fails to shock me.

Lots of people need to reassess their priorities.

The sad thing is if they succeed in their quest for the favored party candidate they may well destroy the party.

On edit: Sorry forgot to compliment you on an excellent post and say thanks. So... congratulations and thank you on an excellent post.

[humbled_opinion]

149. There is only one solution....

She must pick Sanders as her running mate... end of story...

[NoMoreRepugs]

151. gcomeau - nail meet hammer - u have summed up the choice we have as Dems/progressives

very succinctly - thanks

[raouldukelives]

152. K&R They are currently the largest obstacle to progressive ideals.

The only reason the right in this country has become so insane, is because they have too. It is the only way for them to differentiate themselves from a "left" that is increasingly drawn to a power center that is itself ever skewing rightward in pursuit of profits for its millions of shareholders.

In between all this, we find our representation and our democracy. Bernie is, to my eyes, a centrist with a liberal soul. But then again, maybe my eyes aren't what they used to be.

[Orange Butterfly]

153. It's the people around her doing this, her advisors

Hillary is getting bad advise from her advisers.

She needs a new team of advisers. I don't think Hillary is like this and I am a Bernie supporter.

[Raster]

155. Obviously Bill and Hill's dates with history and destiny are far more....

...important that actual, real progressive movement and action. After all, it's her turn, damnit, HER TURN!

[Ali-96]

157. Best post on DU

This is the best post on DU. Good job OP, you've opened my mind and I'm sure many others. Thanks for your perspective.

[libdem4life]

158. Wow...still up today. Go gcomeau.

[geardaddy]

159. Kicked and bloody well Recommended!

Thank you for laying it out clearly!

[sketchy]

163. k+r

[jillan]

167. This is being read by DAnielle on the Thom Hartmann show right now!!

Woot!!

[gcomeau]

168. Seriously?

[jillan]

169. Yes!! Not the whole thing but she was quoting you, even mentioned your DU name!!

[gcomeau]

171. Ha, wonder if she got the pronunciation right... :D

[jillan]

173. No not at all - she ended up spelling it. lol.

[gcomeau]

174. Hehehe... I suspected. Nobody but the french or french-adjacent ever get it right. ;)