controversy brewing in East Texas schools

[RussBLib]

This is right in my backyard, and I am a member of the Secular Humanist Society of East Texas, where one of the concerned parents posts regularly. She's pretty nervous about the backlash that is sure to come from the theists. I'm going to try my best to attend any rallies and support the objecting parents.

It concerns the principal of an elementary school reading Bible verses and scripture over the PA system every morning. Some parents are finally fed up, have had enough, and have contacted FFRF, among other groups. FFRF is wading into the conflict.

Keep an eye on this one:

Whole story here.

White Oak ISD responds to allegations from anti-religion foundation

WHITE OAK, TX (KLTV) - White Oak ISD is under fire after an anti-religion organization alleged that one of its campuses violated the Constitution.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation, a group that promotes non-theism and separation between religion and government, said it received a complaint from someone at White Oak High School that Principal Dan Noll was quoting Bible verses during the morning announcements.

Superintendent Michael Gilbert responded in a blog published Tuesday:

The residents were offended at the use of scripture, demanding that it be stopped and calling for disciplinary action against Mr. Noll. I am fully aware of the practice at the high school and will not pursue any action against our High School Principal or any other member of our faculty/staff concerning this issue.

The letter from the FFRF is not the first received by the district. They contacted us in the fall with concerns about the practices at our football games. I have responded in accordance with their stated concerns and we have moved on.

Let me be clear, this is an attempt to draw us into a contest of words for the sole purpose of giving the FFRF a large amount of free press/recognition that they and their very few members (1,200 in Texas) do not deserve. This group and others like it, are wanting us to provide them with negative quotes to use in the promotion of their agenda. We can and will make the adjustments needed to ensure our students experience a morally sound, positive character based education. There are a multitude of options to provide our students, faculty and staff the opportunity to express their First Amendment Rights as provided for in the United States Constitution. Let me also be clear that we have not (in my opinion) violated anyone's rights and/or subjected anyone to undue stress. Bible studies and scriptures are allowed in schools. The requirement is that the material be presented in a neutral manner. It is my position that we met that standard with the morning announcements.

My recommended response to the FFRF is, “I'm sorry you feel that way. I will be praying for you and your staff daily.”

[onager]

2. Bump! Keep us posted.

Love the headline in that newspaper article:

White Oak ISD responds to allegations from anti-religion foundation

No bias there!

It's not an "anti-religion foundation." It's a pro-Constitution foundation.

Which reminds me...among other cheery things going on right now, I just received my Last Will & Testament in the mail.

If anything is left after I croak, I'm seriously thinking of leaving it to FFRF. For one thing, they're a very fiscally responsible organization. A search will tell you all about that.

For another, they seem to be on the front lines of important Church/State battles every day. And they fight those battles without getting bogged down in side issues like telling me what kind of atheist I should be.

[mountain grammy]

3. Someone in the district or the FFRF should (and probably have)

contact Americans United for Separation of Church and State. They take up cases like this.

It's a great organization. I donate regularly.

https://www.au.org/

[RussBLib]

4. that contact has been made

I toss them a few bucks from time to time too.

[AtheistCrusader]

5. These people are going to exhaust every last avenue of indoctrination for children, at least twice

if not more times, and they'll keep getting slapped down, and they'll keep on trying it.

The only way it's going to change is if the suits are against the individuals doing it, rather than the school, and the courts do something like, treble damages as they do in copyright type cases. Otherwise it'll never end.

[Curmudgeoness]

6. He doesn't want to provide "negative quotes to use".

Well, he certainly failed.

"Let me also be clear that we have not (in my opinion) violated anyone's rights and/or subjected anyone to undue stress. Bible studies and scriptures are allowed in schools. The requirement is that the material be presented in a neutral manner. It is my position that we met that standard with the morning announcements.

I would love to hear how he considers this to be presented in a neutral manner. Is he presenting verses from different religious holy books each day? NO. Every student is subjected to Bible verses daily, and I see no way that this is legal....and I have no doubt that the courts will say the same thing.

I am fed up to my eyeballs with this shit, and it is time that the consequences for these actions are severe enough to make the perpetrators think long and hard about whether it is worth it. A significant fine and loss of job could go a long way, then they can decide if they would prefer to give their money to their church, or to the government.

[CrispyQ]

7. FFRF usually wins.

When someone higher up in the administration realizes this is going to cost money to fight in court, they usually back down.

FFRF sends a little newspaper every other month & you should read the mail they get from these outstanding Christians. Mean, hateful, vulgar stuff.

I hope you post back here & let us know how it all shakes out.

[deucemagnet]

8. Superintendant Michael Gilbert is bringing a knife to a gunfight.

So, FFRF members in Texas don't deserve to be heard because of their small numbers? He claims that Bible studies and scriptures are allowed when presented in a neutral manner, then closes the letter by recommending that people respond to the FFRF by saying that you'll pray for them? If this was his attempt to not be drawn into a "contest of words" (Heaven forfend! How can we expect a professional educator to engage in a "contest of words"?) by not giving negative quotes, I'd love to hear him really vent his spleen.

I hope you'll consider cross-posting this to GD for more exposure.

[RussBLib]

10. there was a bit more in his blog post

That wasn't actually the "close" of his letter. I had snipped a few relevant paragraphs.

For the benefit of those who may not have read the entire article, here is the Superintendant's full blog post:

"Recently, I have been contacted by two concerned residents of White Oak ISD and legal counsel from the Freedom From Religion Foundation concerning the use of scripture in the “Thought for the Day” at the high school.

The residents were offended at the use of scripture, demanding that it be stopped and calling for disciplinary action against Mr. Noll. I am fully aware of the practice at the high school and will not pursue any action against our High School Principal or any other member of our faculty/staff concerning this issue.

The letter from the FFRF is not the first received by the district. They contacted us in the fall with concerns about the practices at our football games. I have responded in accordance with their stated concerns and we have moved on.

Let me be clear, this is an attempt to draw us into a contest of words for the sole purpose of giving the FFRF a large amount of free press/recognition that they and their very few members (1,200 in Texas) do not deserve. This group and others like it, are wanting us to provide them with negative quotes to use in the promotion of their agenda. We can and will make the adjustments needed to ensure our students experience a morally sound, positive character based education. There are a multitude of options to provide our students, faculty and staff the opportunity to express their First Amendment Rights as provided for in the United States Constitution. Let me also be clear that we have not (in my opinion) violated anyone's rights and/or subjected anyone to undue stress. Bible studies and scriptures are allowed in schools. The requirement is that the material be presented in a neutral manner. It is my position that we met that standard with the morning announcements.

My recommended response to the FFRF is, “I'm sorry you feel that way. I will be praying for you and your staff daily.”

Finally, as a Christian Brother, it will not promote the values we hold so dear to assail those that disagree with the Gospel. We will state our case. We will make sure our rights are just as protected as anyone else that lives in this great country. We will continue to provide for all the needs of our students and we will do so while traveling the High Road. Don't get drawn into a game of words that has no “winner”.

Please do not waste your time and effort on these few detractors."

Yeah, don't waste your time and effort on these few detractors. Even if the detractors are right? What if the few detractors are actual federal judges? Are you going to spend time and effort on those?

And it's not an attempt to publicize FFRF, fool. It's an attempt to get your school district to follow the law.

We'll see how long he continues to travel the High Road when the shit starts hitting the fan.

I'll be sure to keep y'all posted.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Oh, it's going to have a winner all right...

And it won't be him/the school.

[AlbertCat]

9. First Amendment Rights

The FFRF is not Congress making laws to abridge your (Mr Gilbert and the school) freedom of speech.

Are you also reading from the Vedas? The Koran? Philosophers? Scientists? etc etc? If you are just reading from the Bible, you are promoting a single religion/philosophy to a "captive" audience in a public institution...and that's the problem.

But you know that, you disingenuous jerk.



Doncha get the feeling Christians are just pissed that other people live on the planet?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

11. Prey, indeed.

[progressoid]

13. Yes, keep us updated.

Pretty brazen abuse of the system seems to me.

[onager]

14. Interesting coincidence...

As mentioned before, I recently made a transcontinental move from California to South Carolina. Upstate SC, which is generally redder than a baboon's ass and more holy-crazy than Jerusalem.

Picked up the local small-town newspaper this morning. The editors want more letters from the public, and here's what they had to say in their banner, center-page editorial:

Just because we might not agree with you doesn't mean we don't want to hear from you...

If you think prayer in public meetings is a blatant violation of separation of church and state, we want to hear from you. If you think public officials are spending your tax dollars foolishly, we want to hear from you. And if you think Obamacare has been a good thing for healthcare in America...yes, we even want to hear from you...

Of course, they could be just making up a list of local non-believers...

[LostOne4Ever]

15. Wish I could say I am surprised

[font size=3 color=teal]But having grown up in the Texas school system I know how bad it is and can get.

The scary part to me, is there are people who actually think there is nothing wrong with this type of thing [/font]

[Manifestor_of_Light]

16. And nativity scenes on the courthouse lawn, they got no problem with.

In the county I live in, they keep a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn at Christmas, because "it's tradition".

In other words, they don't care about separation of church and state, and think they are right.

That's when I get out my "Axial Tilt is the Reason for the Season" poster and put it on my fence.

But they don't understand axial tilt, even with my beautiful painting of the earth and the sun.

[RussBLib]

17. Victory? Could be!

It looks like the White Oak ISD superintendent, Michael Gilbert, has folded like a cheap suit. And we were hoping for a battle!!

This should be a lesson to every atheist: stand up for your rights; stand up for the Constitution! Don't let the theists foist their BS on you.

So far, it looks like we have won. But we'll be keeping an eye on this guy and the ISD.

White Oak ISD: No more 'chapter and verse' from Bible

An East Texas high school principal no longer will include a reading of Bible Scripture as part of his morning announcements after a national uproar over the practice, the district's chief said Saturday. White Oak ISD Superintendent Michael Gilbert said that while the principal would continue to offer his "thought for the day," it "will not include chapter and verse from Scripture."

Gilbert earlier suggested "adjustments" would be made to the daily intercom announcement by White Oak High School Principal Dan Noll, but didn't specify what those would be. The issue gained attention last week after a student sent recordings of some of Noll's readings to an atheist blogger who forwarded them to the Freedom From Religion Foundation in Wisconsin. The foundation contacted the district, calling for disciplinary action against Noll and demanding he cease the daily Bible readings.

On Saturday, he said Noll's thought for the day would remain a part of the high school's morning announcements. "It will consist of material intended to encourage students to consider positive choices in their daily life and plans for the future," Gilbert said. "The thought for the day will come from a variety of sources and will not include chapter and verse from Scripture."

The news came amid a spirited discussion, largely on social media, among people who defended Noll and others who questioned the legality of his actions. A previous News-Journal story had drawn about 150 comments by Saturday afternoon. In its demands to the district, the Freedom from Religion Foundation cited the Supreme Court case of Abbington Township School District v. Schemmp (1963), in which the court ruled that school officials reciting Scripture during school hours represented an unconstitutional establishment of religion.

The foundation said it would pursue legal action if the practice was not changed. That was the stance taken by a San Antonio resident who identified himself as a U.S. Air Force veteran and said he'd sue the district if Noll's practice wasn't changed.

"If the Bible readings, or any sectarian announcement, is still being done by March 30, 2015, I will file a lawsuit against the White Oak ISD," Patrick Greene said Wednesday in an email to Gilbert that was shared with the News-Journal. "Unlike from the Freedom from Religion Foundation, I am a Texan who takes it personally when the Texas and United States Constitutions are being completely ignored. You cannot teach love of country and respect for the law of the land to our children, then flagrantly show your hypocrisy by publicly showing the children how to break the law."

The rest of the story is here.

Next?!

[RussBLib]

18. a coda to this saga?

The Longview (Texas) News-Journal published a very good commentary on the White Oak kerfuffle. I'm quite pleased to see such rationality coming from East Texas. Eat it Louis Gohmert!

Editorial: White Oak ISD made right choice on Scripture reading

It may not have been popular with many East Texans, but White Oak ISD Superintendent Michael Gilbert made exactly the right decision in asking high school Principal Dan Noll to pick inspirational quotes from outside religious texts for his morning announcements.

The fact is, this is settled law in the United States and has been for more than 50 years, since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled school authorities giving prayers over an intercom system violated constitutional rights. The ruling covered all sorts of religious instruction by tax-supported entities and said students listening to announcements were a "captive audience" who did not have a choice not to listen.

Continuing to have the morning Scripture readings in defiance of a threat by the Freedom From Religion Foundation and at least one individual to sue would have been nothing more than a waste of taxpayer money. To fight might have satisfied some, but the district would have lost.

If they're thinking clearly, most parents would not want any sort of religious instruction in public schools. There are far too many differences within just the Christian religion to satisfy everyone. For that matter, there are versions of the Bible that some accept and others flatly reject. This topic is a field of land mines.

the rest of it is here.

We're still keeping an eye on Noll.

[DetlefK]

19. Dear Superintendent Gilbert

Thank You for your kind words. Though you mean it good, it is unnecessary to pray for us. Please don't waste your time. Your god is as real as the hundreds of other gods that mankind has worshipped since the Stone-Age.

with best regards,
Atheists