When and how do our religious believer fellow posters get offended?

[MarkCharles]

This discussion thread was locked by darkstar3 (a host of the Atheists & Agnostics group).

How is it that they accuse us of "hating religion" or "personally attacking" or "being bigoted" about religion?

What trips them off? When do they "tolerate" us, and when do they shut us down with their self-righteous indignation?

Have we personally insulted their thought process ? Have we challenged their ability to reason beyond the breaking point? Have we associated them with people with whom they want no association, like the Fundies?

When they become insulted by our saying that religion offers no extra value, when religion teaches nothing one cannot learn elsewhere, when "other ways of knowing" don't pass the smell test for anything other than snake-oil sales...what are we tripping off in their brains?

So many of them marry their religious beliefs to their personal identity. So many of them shut down communication that moment that they feel the hint of personal insult, an insult coming from a challenge to the rationality of their chosen beliefs.

Are these folks simply living with some life-long childish dreams that they cannot get away from?

Anyone have some insight here? Anyone want to offer ways to avoid making them choose to feel insulted by our questions and our comments and personal opinions? I'd love some thoughts on this.

As many times as I have asked them why they felt a need to feel insulted, I was wondering what tripped that off. Any ideas?

[MarkCharles]

1. Two (2) recommends so far and over 20 views...

I'd really appreciate 20 responses to this thread by the time I check-in tomorrow morning.

Just share your thoughts folks... I don't judge, I just ask for details of thinking, most believer faithful folks seem offended by that concept of revealing their thinking.

Please, folks, share your thoughts.

[amyrose2712]

2. I lost a friend cause she thought I was calling her stupid.

It was during the 04 election. I said I cant understand why anyone with a brain would vote for Bush, except religion. She took it as me saying she was stupid. That's all I got though. Can't really use my experience with my sister, cause that is simple mental illness.

[AlbertCat]

4. She took it as me saying she was stupid

Well... she was, wasn't she? I mean now we know just how stupid it was to vote for Bush a second time.

This doesn't necessarily mean she's permanently stupid or stupid about everything. Actually, rather than "stupid", it was more like rash, not thought through... which means she's not capable of thinking it through... she just wasn't.

Religion these days seems to a license to be thin skinned. This is supported by the very unproductive and harmful meme that all sides of an argument have equal merit... or merit at all. And that authoritarian thing that the world is not nuanced. Even to the point where "rash" and "stupid" might mean the same thing. Plus that weird thing about faith that makes it a badge of honor to be firm about things that have thoroughly been debunked. The more evidence against it, the more revered one is for believing it. Just plain weird!

If your lukewarm transgression is all it took to end the friendship, she wasn't a very good friend, was she?

And life goes no....

[amyrose2712]

9. I suppose you are correct, but it's not that simple.

We were very very close friends for years. And one year she went born again on me. I don't really know what drove her to it. I suppose my comment was her final straw, but she considered me a heathen and told me she felt she "failed me as a friend cause I was going to hell" And that she"didn't think she believed in dinosaurs anymore" I can't even remember my response to that duzy, but it couldn't have been kind. So, maybe she was a bit dull in the head, but I wasn't really calling her stupid then. She did once say that she always felt that way she was just embarrassed to say it. It was almost like she was brainwashed. She did say in 08 that she didnt vote for McCain "I'm not stupid, she said" I am only now thinking it was her reply to the comment from 04.

[AlbertCat]

18. "didn't think she believed in dinosaurs anymore"

Your story is almost exactly like mine with my best college chum... only I was dropped as a friend because of crop circles!

Yes it's sad to see people you like go over the deep end, but you know YOU'VE done nothing wrong.

If you love someone...set them free...

[Joe Shlabotnik]

3. wish I had the answer(s)

But, the first thing that comes to mind is that one's religion is an integral part of one's identity. Far more so, the more religious one is. So by asking questions that may sound rational and fair to you and me, we are perceived as attacking their identity; essentially calling them "disingenuous". The irony of course is that with questioning, comes enlightenment. I doubt leopards think about their spots, yet they like the looks of them on other leopards, so why would they change them, and why would it be reasonable for us to expect them to change.

[yellerpup]

5. The believers congregate, they hang together,

they agree with each other, and they repeat the same stories ad nauseum and never seem to get tired of it. They also share and often bond over a tradition of feeling persecuted that dates back to Roman times. Maybe they are all comfortable in their own mindsets and when you engage in questioning their deepest (programmed) beliefs, you suddenly become a party crasher. My 4th grade Sunday School teacher once crabbed, "I don't know why anyone would come to church if they didn't already believe." Their rejection of you once you've been tagged as "not one of us" is deliberate and based on their fear. One last thing, it is next to impossible to change a person's mind when the opinion they hold is a strong opinion. It's a lot less frustrating to socialize with like minded others. Happy hunting.

[AlbertCat]

6. When and how do our religious believer fellow posters get offended?

I dunno...

Maybe it's when one points out the obvious flaws in things they have had to put a great deal of themselves into to ignore and forget.

Sparking their doubts must be scary. Like a death in the family reminds everyone that they also are all too mortal.

It seems to me, if your faith is firm, no amount of taunting would shake it.... not even reality. But most people go about their daily lives not even thinking about religious matters 98% of their waking day but fully accepting what science has sunk in from school and TV and using science's benefits with complete trust. Y'know, the average 3rd graders knows more about the world and universe than all the authors of the Bible... and other ancient texts.

Not to mention, Christians especially love playing poor put upon martyr, apparently.

And like homophobes just can't stand to see gays happy and productive (when they're supposed to be miserable and depraved), religious people can't stand to see people over whom religion has no authority... and are OK.

[Curmudgeoness]

7. My opinion of this....

when people from this group go to the religion group and pull a "holier than thou" attitude, telling the people who have religion that they are not being rational, or are deluded, you are opening up a huge can of whoop-ass. The same thing happens when religious people come here and post derogatory comments.

So the real question is: Why do you keep messing with them? Why do you want so bad to know how and why they feel the way they feel? Shouldn't it be ok to believe whatever the person believes, no matter how ridiculous you think it is? I am so turned off by Evangelicals who try to save my soul, and I have no doubt that atheists who try to convert them to atheism make them feel the same way.

We atheists will never be accepted if we continue to degrade others. We will just have them digging in harder. I know, I sound like I am preaching flowers and sunshine, but I really do believe that we should have our beliefs and let others have theirs.

So, we should be discussing our beliefs here, and let them discuss their beliefs in the religion group....and you and others should stop trying to agitate over there.

[lazarus]

8. the Religion group is as much ours as theirs

we have our safe haven here, and there are safe havens for the various religions, but Religion as a group is a place for all sides to meet and discuss.

[amyrose2712]

10. I think some ideas deserve to be challenged, but...

how is the religion group ours too? I am just wondering if certain people insistence that it is just as much for non-believers as for believers, maybe that is why they will insist that atheism itself is also a religion. Just a thought. Not trying to say you don't belong there.

[lazarus]

11. Statement of Purpose for Religion Group

Discuss religious and theological issues. All relevant topics are permitted. Believers, non-believers, and everyone in-between are welcome.

So, yes, it's ours, too.

[amyrose2712]

12. Oh ok then....

I wasn't sure, thanks.

[mr blur]

16. "atheists who try to convert them to atheism"?

I have to say that I've never met such an atheist and I'm certainy not one.

I mean, convert them to what, exactly? A lack of belief? How or why would you do that? "Makes me think of the "Atheism is a religion" nonsense we hear from the most deluded.

Please understand that I'm not attacking you here, and I certainly take your point about "militants" of any stripe. I just find the notion of trying to convert someone to atheism rather bizarre.

[AlbertCat]

19. Pointing out facts... and fallacies...

... is not trying to convert anyone.... as you say. It's merely.. Pointing out facts... and fallacies...

Atheists just want people to see reason and think critically.

Now whether someone can do that AND be religious at the same time... or not... is not the atheist's problem. It's not our "fault" the universe is the way it is... and not the way religion wants it to be.

[Curmudgeoness]

22. My point was that there are some atheists

who do not respect the rights of the believers, and argue with them over how ridiculous their thinking is. The "conversion" that I am talking about is trying to convince the believer to stop believing...and that would be a conversion to atheism.

It serves no purpose to treat believers as children, and it just pisses them off. Maybe I feel this way because I don't give a shit how anyone believes, or not. I know where I stand, and that is all that matters to me. I respect anyone's right to the way they feel about it. And I get an uncomfortable feeling when I read some of the comments by the "true believers" and the "true unbelievers" who "know" that they are right and the rest of the world is wrong, and are willing to condemn all opposition. It just doesn't serve any purpose.

[Fumesucker]

32. And yet believers are perfectly comfortable trying to bring others to their way of thinking..

Indeed, there is even a name for it, evangelism.

I live somewhere that one of the first questions someone will ask you on meeting is "where do you go to church?" so perhaps I get a bit more of this sort of thing than many posters here do.

It just gets old fighting off the importunate theists who want you "save" you..

[Curmudgeoness]

37. I didn't say that it was ok for them to do it either.

I will only push back when I am pushed. If I were asked where I went to church, then the conversation could turn to a place I prefer not to go. But interestingly, I have never had an in-your-face encounter when I have stated to someone that I am an atheist. I am always braced for problems, but they do not materialize. I cannot explain it. Yes, there are those who are shocked, but they do not cause me problems. And there are those who want to pray for me, to which I tell them if they want to waste their time, and they will feel better, go for it....but it will do me no good. Maybe I am just lucky to not have problems.

[mr blur]

40. I can't imagine how depressing that must be -

[div class="excerpt" style="border:solid 3px #000000;"]one of the first questions someone will ask you on meeting is "where do you go to church?"

In 56 years I've never once been asked if I actually went to church. Or believed in a god. But then I only know a couple of people who go to a church. They know I' m an atheist and we never talk about religion, each knowing that what the other belives or doesn't is none of their business.

It's different in the UK - nobody really cares that much about religion. Or believes in it very much.

[mr blur]

36. I respect the rights of believers to believe anything they want.

This in no way entitles the things they believe to automatic respect. If their thinking is ridiculous (to me) then I 'm going to point this out to them. Why shouldn't I? No-one has the right to not be offended. If you think that "faith" should automatically be granted respect, then I think you' re missing somethins.

[Curmudgeoness]

38. You are misunderstanding what I mean by respect.

You can respect a person's right to believe in the ridiculous without respecting their beliefs.

I do not respect their beliefs, and I have a hard time respecting the person who believes. But it is not my job to change their minds. I do not coddle them because they are the "norm", but I don't call them idiots either.

[MarkCharles]

39. No, I do not respect Rick Santorum's "RIGHT" to believe that gay folks

don't deserve the right to marry. I CANNOT stand up for his right to "believe" that, and call that a "religious" belief. Santorum is using his religion to protect his irrational phobia of gay folks. That does NOT deserve my respect, any more than I should "respect" the 9/11 plane hijacker's "rights" to believe that the USA is filled with infidels and that they must strike a world-wide symbol of our infidelity by killing Jews, Christians, and Muslims from many nations on 9/11.

Please, start getting some "respect" for what outrageous religious beliefs have been doing to our fellow humankind for the last 2000 years, wars, famines, destruction, symbolic sacrifices. It's all crazy when religious beliefs trump any OTHER beliefs or persuasions. Religion has been used as a "get out of jail free" card. It is time to hold ALL religious belief systems fully accountable, just as those religious belief systems want to hold atheism accountable for Pol Pot or any other outrageous tyrant in the history of humankind.

[Scuba]

41. Thread winner!

[cleanhippie]

29. If "converting to atheism" is getting them to use critical, rational, and logical thought...

Then I am guilty as charged. Are you of the opinion that critical, rational, and logical thought is the exclusive domain of non-belief?

[Curmudgeoness]

30. Ummmm, kind of.

But I hate to admit it. To say "if you are critical, rational, and logical, you cannot believe in god" sounds a little harsh. And I would not say that in those words to a theist, but that is because I don't think that rubbing someone's nose in shit will make them ready to listen to what you have to say. I am not interested in changing anyone's mind on their beliefs, or demeaning them for those beliefs. My suggestion is that we should be willing to explain our position on religion without calling out other positions.

Actually, when dealing with someone of faith, I make more of a point of the hypocrisy of religion or religious people than to out-and-out critisize what they believe in. To me, there is nothing wrong with a believer's belief IF they are willing to walk the walk. The world would be a better place if Christians would follow the teachings they claim to believe.

So I have argued myself against my first statement, because I think that Jesus's thinking was critical, rational, and logical (except when there was that My Father bullshit, but I often wonder if that was his words of those of the followers). Really, was Jesus a prophet or a philosopher.

[skepticscott]

31. Well, if all religious people

simply had their beliefs and let others have theirs (or lack thereof), and if no religious people tried to impose religiously based beliefs on everyone else, or ever committed violence against others because of their beliefs, there wouldn't be much of a problem, would there? The simple fact that things aren't remotely that way is where most of the disputes in the Religion board and similar places arise.

And as was aptly point out in this thread, not all sides of an argument have equal (or any) merit. Beliefs that the world is 6000 years old and that that the Grand Canyon was caused by Noah's flood ARE irrational. Sooner or later, you have to call bullshit bullshit. We've tried tiptoeing around the delicate sensibilities of religious believers for many, many centuries, and where did it get us? Atheists have gained more regard in the last 20 years than in the 2000 years before that, and it hasn't been by being obsequiously respectful or accomodationist. People who can't abide the plainly stated truth are out of luck.

[Curmudgeoness]

35. Excellent point that we would all get along

if they just kept their beliefs and didn't impose them on others in all the ways that they have done. And yes, history shows us that they do not do that.

You are also right that speaking out instead of hiding our atheism has had benefit. I guess I am a dreamer---I keep thinking there should be some way that we all just get along and leave each other alone.

[laconicsax]

13. Suggestion:

Go into one of the theist safe haven groups and ask there.

We can speculate endlessly on what offends other people, but the best way to find out is to simply ask them.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

14. Another reason,

Especially with Evangelicals, or say Jehovah Witnesses,or Scientologists etc, is that converting others to their beliefs is a downright bloodsport. And nobody wants to be a looser.

[Neoma]

15. Because they know they're not smart so they compensate with anger.

Why join so-called intellectuals when "we" have our own (so-called) scientists that say our bible is true and straight from the lord, hallelujah! And all those heathens who are so-called smart will burn in hell so that I am in control of my pitiful destiny.

Without doubt or distraction so that I can be in peace when converting silly tribes in other countries who are generally gullible when faced with our miracles and it shall be that they can sing with us in heaven. Praise be!

Ohyd vag seliojah butlillit vuuuum dewvex!!!! *Snake handles* Amen.

[Riktor]

17. I think it is actually quite simple...

Arguing with people is actually a very poor way to get them to change in their minds. In most cases, people will stick to their guns regardless of the evidence mounted against their position because they are too proud to admit their own fault in front of others.

As for why religious debates devolve into offense, it is because religion is an indefensible position. Any argument defending belief in the magical man in the sky we can't see, hear, smell, or otherwise detect quickly falls apart under any manner of logical or scientific scrutiny. The defender, not wanting to admit he or she is wrong, but unable to argue logically, devolves into a petulant child. Such is the course of virtually every religious debate.

[Arugula Latte]

20. I think it's interesting how religion is supposed to be this protected bubble, even on DU.

We can make fun of stupid Republican beliefs and call them out on their statements that are not based on anything other than them making shit up or repeating lies that have been handed down by the rightwing for years. Yet when any goofy belief that is based on nothing but old stories, tall tales, "tradition," magical thinking, and so on, is called Religion, somehow it's "Oooh, that's a special category that you can't say jack about."

[lazarus]

21. I asked one of the theists about just this in Religion a couple of weeks ago

I was ignored.

[ElboRuum]

24. I do understand it, at least.

If <20% of people are rabid Teathuglicans, then its open season. They're ridiculous, and they aren't here, except to troll (poorly).

But the vast majority of people in this country believe in a god of some sort. I would wager that DU has a lesser percentage than the general population, but I still believe that the amount of religious people on DU to be pretty high. I would have trouble saying that 80% or whatever the percentage is of the people in this country are idiotic or seriously deluded, not only because I think that's patently false, but because it's just not a particularly nice thing to suggest even if were true.

No one should make fun of their religion, just as no one should make fun of our atheism.

[ElboRuum]

23. Religion and the mindset.

What you have to realize is that it is a starkly different idea when say, two people of differing faiths argue about religion than it is when one person of faith argues with religion with an atheist.

In one case, you're just arguing about the meanings or the names, but the fundamental frame of reference for the conversation, the ground rules, so to speak, remain agreed upon, that god(s) exist(s).

Asking a person of faith to entertain the idea of no god existing is like taking their playing field and plowing it under to make room for a parking garage or a strip mall. A person of faith cannot reasonably argue with one without because they do not agree to meet on the larger playing field, one that states that in the case of the existence of god, the jury is still out.

To a believer, the existence of god isn't a question. It is an axiom. To entertain the idea that something they've taken as axiomatic their whole lives might not be introduces several mentally disturbing implications. This makes them angry. And in true form to the nature of human beings they project that anger onto the one who introduced them to the idea. They blame the messengers.

One thing people don't like is to feel stupid. And when you engage a person of faith with the idea that a faith they have entertained and supported is likely misplaced, you've basically made your argument a referendum on their intelligence and gullibility. Now you probably didn't do or say anything implying that they were stupid, foolish, or otherwise easily led. In fact, you may have made sure that your intent was understood. It doesn't matter. In the narrative the mind creates, that argument is intended to make that person feel stupid, and not only that, here's some proof. You're welcome.

So I don't really think it is possible to engage a theist on religion as an atheist, unless said theist is already having doubts about their faith. They just won't entertain the possibility that they can be wrong. To admit that would be to question the beliefs of their entire lives, the actions they've taken, and their own definitions of what it means to be moral or just.

In short, I don't think they are pissed at us, per se, but rather they are pissed at the fact that we ask scary questions and might have a point when we attempt to give our answers.

[MarkCharles]

25. I appreciate and agree very much with your reply.

I find their accusations and emotional reactions quite understandable from a psychological point of view, at least to some degree.

What I find more troubling, particularly here on DU, is their defense of other believer's more irrational beliefs, or their outright refusal to see that , (for example), Christians who condemn gay folks are not something they want to either challenge nor want to be associated with. To them, their religious beliefs are somehow an ocean apart from the fundamentalism that is so characteristic of religious dogma, even though those irrational condemnations of gay folks' rights to marry stem from the same basic religious dogma as the "liberated" Christians claim holds power and influence in their lives.

The liberal Christians take the train to rationality half way... and then get off and start walking backwards.

[ElboRuum]

26. I think what they rebel against...

...and this too is reasonable, is the co-opting of religion by, and this goes to Christianity moreso than any other religion represented on DU, fundamentalism, such the the words Christian and fundamentalist are now considered by many to be one and the same.

I feel bad for them, because I am old enough to remember (just) when there really was no such thing as 'fundamentalism' in the Christian lexicon. Some were a bit more fundamental than others, but culturally, religion was a private matter, it was not something oft discussed publicly, certainly not something that pushed against the political landscape demanding to be heard.

With the rise of the Christian Right, this all changed. The fundamentalists decided to start speaking out publicly, something the more practical Christians still thought in poor taste and having dubious value. However, when some group dominates the conversation long enough, they become the only voice. Now non-fundamentalist Christians have to deal with that and the only thing they can say is "we're not one of those kinds of Christians so don't lump us in with them." In fact, Christianity taken as what I believe is the correct way, as a series of spiritual lessons and fables, not as historical account or science textbook or justification for <insert angry, nasty, antisocial act here>, can be well reconciled with liberal beliefs and attitudes, not perfectly of course, but the whole 'love thy neighbor vibe' is still there. Because they're fighting a two front war, justifying their liberalism in the face of their religion while simultaneously trying to maintain their faith in this place when common definitions of that faith belie that liberalism (even though the whole thing is such a pile of misapprehension that it's kind of silly it requires any kind of war at all), they seem to be very frustrated.

[Fumesucker]

33. I disagree to an extent..

Even Mother Teresa had doubts, strong doubts for a very long time.

I'm fairly sure that most theists go through crises of faith, the majority get through those crises and continue to believe but the doubt is always somewhere there in the back of their mind.

That is why an open atheist makes so many theists uncomfortable, we are them but just took it to the final destination.

[Generic Brad]

27. Reason is a threat to some belief systems

A whole lot of people cannot conceive the possibility that everything they thought they knew might not be true. That is a scary place to be - psychologically speaking. We are dangerous because we dare to think without a safety net. That makes even the quietest, mousy atheist a threat.

[pink-o]

28. I agree: it's the fear that makes them lash out at us.

If there is an atheist/agnostic out there who NEVER believed in God, who from the time of their earliest memory has always been an atheist, then please speak up. Otherwise, most of us were indoctrinated like the rest of society and have come to reject the God myth via rationality and critical thinking. I had an atheist mother and an Orthodox Jewish father who quit practicing the moment he married--and yet, being brought up in 60s suburbia I was convinced God put on on this earth and Jesus was Lord. But like the rest of you, I started expanding my thoughts. I was encouraged to question, to be curious as to why God would let man suffer so much. I was never punished or threatened for my doubts, but allowed to pursue my ideas to their inevitable conclusion.

The indoctrination is a gradual thing, taking place over many years, manipulating one's mind and natural fear of the unknown. Eventually, the conventional wisdom becomes accepted as truth. And the myth is so pervasive, we are such a small minority that it's very easy for Believers to circle the wagons and shut us out. When they do have to engage us and possibly question the very foundation and purpose of their lives, of COURSE it's gonna freak them out.

When I was a girl, I also believed that men were stronger than I and gays could be converted. The nuclear family was the only unit I knew, and I didn't even realize one could have a baby without being married. Obviously, we've all ventured far from that insular concept, but many haven't ever questioned what they were taught in church. Many times I was afraid of the answers I was seeking, but I was more afraid of turning away from knowledge. It took me a long time to understand that most people will hide from the truth if it rips them from their numb comfort!

[MarkCharles]

34. Interesting video on this topic

[rexcat]

46. I think the creator of this video...

gives way too much credit to the religious!

[justiceischeap]

42. I'm going to reply to your question as a lesbian, not an atheist

As a lesbian, when someone questions my identity (say Santorum or other bigots), it offends me. I am aware that I am made up of more than my sexuality but my sexuality is a big part of my identity and when my identity is belittled (or I perceive as being belittled), I get defensive. For those of the religious persuasion, their faith is a big part of their identity. No one likes their identity denied. That would be my guess as to why you get the hostile replies.

That said, I think if things are written on DU in a way that their religion starts to infringe on something (like the LGBTQ community or women), then by all means, use your identity to debate their comment but to immediately jump on someone because they say they have faith in the big, invisible sky monster is akin to attacking them without reason.

Does that make sense? I only really get involved in religious discussion (that get heated) when we see threads about the fundies attacking choice or the LGBTQ community or women ('cause those tend to be the big 3 right now). I've found most of the faithful on DU get their backs up when one uses the blanket statement of "Christians suck!" or something to that affect. However, I've also found that if you say, "Some Christians suck!" they tend to do better with the discussion.

[RueVoltaire]

44. Well said!

[mr blur]

47. Not quite...

[div class="excerpt" style="border:solid 3px #000000;"]to immediately jump on someone because they say they have faith in the big, invisible sky monster is akin to attacking them without reason.

Actually it's reason that prompts me to mock them.

[RueVoltaire]

43. Questioning the beliefs of the religious, is taken as a personal attack,

because it's considered the very core of their identity: They are nothing without Jesus, Allah, etc.
Speaking as a former cradle-fundie, and a short-lived Catholic convert, what makes them take offense to honest questions, is that they have nothing to defend themselves with.

[montanto]

45. Because we are off topic.

The only topic is "God is great." If one asks "why is this as it is?" the answer is "because God wishes it to be. God is great." If we ask "why is this as it is?" and don't mention God and his greatness, clearly we have gone astray. All conversation needs to be a tribute to God and all questions without God as the answer are false. Clearly this consideration of things without God as prime mover makes them uncomfortable. It is odd, though, that through their faith they can't come to the same level of acceptance of their place that I can in my lack of faith. I can listen to and take part in religious discussions, listen to sermons on the radio while on a road trip through the country, wade through the most absurd fallacies of logic, endure proselytizing of all sorts and remain unmoved by strong emotion toward the faithful. Their faith is no threat to me. My lack of faith is to them.