What to Make of the Pope Francis-Kim Davis Meeting?

[shrike]

One columnist's take:

(L)et me offer an alternative theory of how the meeting happened and what it means: Somebody messed up. A source at the bishops’ conference told me on background that the meeting happened “against the advice of the bishops’ conference.”

(The bold being my emphasis. Who the hell was this idiot who went against the advice of the American bishops? If our conservative bishops don't like it . . . )

Other reports in both the Washington Post and the New York Times agree that the meeting was arranged by a “Vatican official.” Seeing as the meeting happened at the nunciature in Washington, it could only have happened with the approval and participation of the nuncio, Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano. Perhaps he did not understand how Ms. Davis’ case was not really an instance of conscientious objection. Perhaps, he felt sorry for her, as I did, because sending that poor woman to jail was overkill by the judge. Perhaps he did not see how the news of this meeting would trample on the pope’s message and begin to drown out everything else the pope said or did during his six days here. Of course, it is a nuncio’s job to know such things and, most especially, not to put his boss in a compromising position. If the President visits a foreign country, and the ambassador, against the advice of the State Department, nonetheless introduces the president to someone who causes a controversy that reflects badly on the president, that mistake is laid at the feet of the ambassador, not the president. If this meeting was all the nuncio’s doing then he should, in conscience, quit too.

As for what it means, here is my hunch: The pope knew about Ms. Davis what the person introducing them told him about her. If she was introduced as someone who went to jail because of her commitment to traditional marriage, then I do not find it surprising that the pope embraced her and wished her well. The pope met many, many people during his trip and as the ever-quotable Fr. James Martin S.J. pointed out, “Not to put too fine a point on it, but Pope Francis met with Mark Wahlberg, and that does not mean he liked ‘Ted’.” Watching the video of the interaction on the plane between Terry Moran and Pope Francis, it did not appear that the pope was connecting Moran’s question with any meeting he had four days prior. And, Moran’s question was also poorly framed, premised on the false assumption that Ms. Davis’ case is a case of conscientious objection.

We know something else. This story is now in the hands of Ms. Davis and the Falwell empire, neither of which have much knowledge of, nor institutional loyalty to, the Catholic Church. Until the Vatican or the bishops’ conference gets out front of this story, Ms. Davis and her evangelical lawyers will be the only ones explaining what happened and what it meant. The Vatican’s “no comment” is woefully insufficient. The headlines yesterday morning almost all had the words “secret meeting” and surely at the Vatican they know that people are attracted to secrets. This story will not go away. Various news accounts have people calling the pope “a liar” and “a coward.” That is not a good thing if you are tasked with press operation for the pope. Someone needs to say something or we will only know what Ms. Davis and her lawyers want us to know. The rest will be speculation, endless speculation. Non-stop speculation. If the pope was badly served by his staff, let that be known. If the pope was badly served by himself, let that be known. But, neither the bishops nor the Vatican can afford to let this fester another minute.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/distinctly-catholic/what-make-pope-francis-kim-davis-meeting

[Downwinder]

1. For all their Protestant talk,

they still look to the Poe for approval.

[Skinner]

2. (EDITED) I don't buy any explanation for the Pope-Kim Davis meeting...

Last edited Fri Oct 2, 2015, 10:20 AM - Edit history (2)

...which is based on the idea that the pope didn't know what he was doing or didn't understand the case or was somehow ignorant.

He's the pope, for crissakes. He's not some ignorant moron who was accidentally thrust into international spotlight. He is a high-profile world leader with all the ambition and savvy that comes with it. He has access to unlimited information from highly knowledgeable experts in every country he visits. This wasn't an off-the-cuff gaffe -- it was a planned meeting which was deliberately kept secret while the pope was still in the US because he knew it would be huge news that would overshadow the rest of his visit.

The pope knew exactly what he was doing. I have speculated elsewhere on DU about why he might have done it, but that was pure speculation. The truth is that we don't know why the pope decided to meet with Kim Davis.

EDIT 10/2: Looks like the Vatican is now distancing itself from the meeting. I didn't buy it when other people were trying to claim that the Pope was ignorant. But now that the Vatican itself has come out and provided some additional details and claimed that this was not an endorsement of Kim Davis, I am much more inclined to believe it.

[rug]

3. We don't know why they met nor do we know what was said.

We do know he gave her a rosary.

The rash of anti-Catholic bullshit on DU over this has as much a foundation as her lawyer's calling it an endorsement of her. Maybe it was the rosary that put them over the edge.

This is the most tempered commentary on it that I've heard:

http://www.npr.org/2015/09/30/444790845/kim-davis-met-pope-francis-in-washington-d-c-attorney-says

[hollysmom]

4. oh for goodness sakes

the pope gives everyone a rosary, that is part of the shtik of meeting the Pope. When I was a child a family friend gave me the rosary from the Pope - he paid to meet the pope and he was Jewish so it was just something to do.
The pope is not an all knowing all seeing power, he is just a guy who doesn't read much in English and has a busy life, he relies on what others tell him and other people arrange meetings, It is not impossible for him to ask to meet someone, but the more blah people arranged by aides and Bishops can strongly suggest certain people be seen, as for him telling her to be strong in her faith, sounds like something he says to everyone - I think it was a big deal in Kim's head, but not so much in the pope, to whom she was probably just another paying customer.

He wanted to avoid controversy, this seems like one of his conservative rebellious Bishops getting their way and thumbing their nose at him.

[rug]

5. That was snark.

I really don't think he'd have given her a rosary if he was plotting something with her.

BTW, he gave her two which she gave it to her parents who are Catholic.

[hollysmom]

14. she was with her husband? - one for each? Still dime a dozen

[shrike]

7. Do you know where you are?

I posted this in the Catholic group for this reason: a discussion amongst ourselves. There's plenty of places to bash Catholics and Catholicism elsewhere.

I don't think you'd like me chiming in on one of your threads in the A&A group . . .

Skinner, OTOH, is Skinner. I suppose he can go wherever he wants.

[rug]

9. No, calling the RCC a criminal organization, its members complicit

is not anti-Catholic bullshit, is it?

Ok, then it's rank bullshit.

Do you feel oppressed now?

[shrike]

12. It really annoys me when they come in here.

Fortunately, it doesn't happen too often. Most are pretty respectful of our personal space, just as I try to be respectful of theirs.

I'm going to give this one the benefit of the doubt. It's possible he didn't realize where he was when he posted.

[rug]

13. I wouldn't mind if they brought some intelligent critiques.

Talking points, sullenness and eye rolls don't do it.

[shrike]

10. Skinner. I appreciate you not getting personal in this thread.

A bit of context here: Michael Sean Winter is a Catholic columnist, with a customarily Catholic POV, writing for a Catholic publication. He is actually trying to take a middle ground between screaming at the Pope and apologizing (the Catholic press there are plenty of apologists.) I posted in here for this reason: I thought it best discussed amongst Catholic DUers, rather than the general community. And I was a little disappointed at certain intrusions, ahem. Winter has some contacts within the Vatican, so it's possible that they're trying to use him for their benefit -- or, they are indeed giving him the inside dope. There's no way to know for sure.

[47of74]

8. There was this article from Esquire - was the Pope tricked into this meeting?

Was the Pope tricked into meeting with Kim Davis by conservatives loyal to Benedict? That's a question Charles Pierce was asking.

I spent a little time Wednesday night examining my conscience, as we used to say around the ol' confessional, as regards the meeting between Papa Francesco and noted civic layabout Kim Davis. This contemplation was prompted by two things: first, an e-conversation I had with someone who had been part of the papal travelling party and second, the appearance of E. J. Dionne on Lawrence O'Donnell's show on MSNBC. According to the first person, there were a great number of people during the pope's tour who were simply hustled in and out for informal private audiences. According to Dionne, the meeting between Davis and the pope was brokered by Archbishop Carlo Vigano, the papal nuncio to the United States at whose residence the pope stayed during his time in Washington, which is when the meeting took place. Together, these facts set off my Spidey Sense about Vatican chicanery.

Before we continue, let us stipulate a few things. First of all, let us stipulate that there are more than a few members of the Church's permanent bureaucracy, both within the Clan Of The Red Beanie and without, who are not happy that this gentleman got elected Pope, and who are not happy with what he's done and said since he was. Second, let us stipulate that many members of this group are loyal to both former pope Josef Ratzinger and, through him, to the memory (and to what they perceive as the legacy) of John Paul II who, for good and ill, had a much different idea of how to wield a papacy than Papa Francesco does. Third, let us stipulate that this opposition to the current pope has been active and vocal, to say nothing of paranoid. Finally, let us stipulate that, for over 2000 years, the Vatican has been a hotbed of intrigue, betrayal, and sanctified ratfcking on a very high scale. (It also has been a hotbed of, well, hot beds, but that's neither here nor there at the moment.) So, if you're one of these people, and you're looking to ratfck the pope's visit to the United States, and to his agenda in general, you'd be looking to put him in a box. So, how would you do that?

Here's what I'd do. I'd arrange for the pope to meet Davis, but not as an American culture war celebrity, but as a devout Christian whose faith is under vague assault. (I would not mention the three marriages or the fact that she took an oath before god to do her job. I mean, why burden the poor old fella with details, right?) I'd shuffle her through the process and she gets some vague words of encouragement from the pope, who otherwise doesn't know her from any other hick who gets sent his way. I'd sit on the news for the entire rest of the pope's trip, even enlisting Davis's publicity-hungry legal team in that effort.

However, as the pope is preparing to go wheels-up in Philadelphia, I'd get the word to a reporter – say, Terry Moran of ABC. On the plane ride home, Moran would ask the pope a vague question about "religious liberty," without mentioning Davis's name, which seems a curious omission for a veteran journalist to make. The pope again would give a fairly anodyne answer about freedom of conscience with which nobody can disagree. Then, with the pope safely back in Rome, I'd leak the news to a conservative Catholic website and wait for the inevitable explosion. (Implicit in this strategy are two facts: a) that the pope doesn't know who Davis is or the facts of her situation, and b) that the Vatican press office will resort to its default position of clumsy semi-stonewalling when the story breaks.) When it comes, lo and behold, Kim Davis gets to give an exclusive interview to ABC, the same network that employs the reporter who asked the question on the airplane. But to pull this off, I'd need someone with serious clout within the Church bureaucracy. And this is where Vigano comes in.

[shrike]

11. That's actually a possibility

Given what we've read here in this group regarding a conservative backlash within the Vatican.

[MBS]

15. Also this

. which suggests that Charlie is on the right track:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/10/01/vatican-source-pope-blindsided-by-meeting-with-controversial-kentucky-clerk/

[47of74]

16. Archbishop Viganò might be going bye-bye

He might be out the door come January when he turns 75.

Archbishop Viganò is turning 75 in January, the age at which bishops must submit a formal request to the Vatican asking for permission to resign. These requests are not automatically accepted, and bishops often stay in their appointments well past age 75. But if Archbishop Viganò is held responsible for what is seen as a grave misstep on an important papal trip, he is likely to be removed at the first respectable opportunity, according to several church analysts.

“Nobody in the Catholic Church wants another Regensburg,” said Massimo Faggioli, an associate professor of theology and director of the Institute for Catholicism and Citizenship at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul. He was referring to the backlash after Pope Benedict XVI, Francis’ predecessor, gave a speech in Regensburg, Germany, that appeared to denigrate Islam.

“This was not as serious as Regensburg, when Benedict read his own speech,” Dr. Faggioli said about the meeting attended by Ms. Davis. “But the pope has to be able to rely on his own system, and in this case the system failed him. The question is, was it a mistake, or was it done with full knowledge of how toxic she was?”

The meeting with Ms. Davis was clearly a misstep, Dr. Faggioli said, “because the whole trip to the United States he very carefully didn’t want to give the impression that he was being politicized by any side.”

[47of74]

17. The Vatican is poking holes in the GOP narrative...

...about the meeting.

Pope Francis did not ask to meet a Kentucky county clerk who had been jailed for refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples and did not offer her unconditional support, the Vatican said on Friday.

“The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects,” Lombardi said in a statement.

He added that Davis had been in a line of people the pope had met at the Vatican embassy in Washington before he left for New York.

“The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature (Vatican embassy) was with one of his former students and his family,” the statement said.