Religion
Related: About this forumThe Atheist Boys Club and Online Misogyny as Sport
September 11, 2012
By Rebecca Hamilton
Leah Libresco, who blogs at Unequally Yoked and bills herself the geeky convert wrote a fascinating post last week about online misogyny from the atheist perspective.
Her post, Ave atque vale, Jen McCreight, discusses how one female blogger has been forced to retire from blogging due to online attacks from the atheist boys club. Ms McCreights explanation for quitting is both straightforward and poignant. I just cant take it anymore, she said. According to the post, the group primarily responsible for these misogynist attacks bills itself FtBullies.
Im not going to repeat the things Ms McCreight has suffered at the hands of these people. Leah Libresco covers it in her post, as does Ms McCreight in hers. If you want to see it, you can follow the links. Im also not going to discuss her beliefs.
The important issue to me is that she is a woman and she has been attacked to the point that she feels compelled to remove her voice from the public debate simply because shes a woman. Do I need to tell you that this is wrong? I doubt it. Anyone who sincerely tries to follow Jesus Christ already knows that.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/publiccatholic/2012/09/the-atheist-boys-club-and-misogyny-as-online-sport/
Rebecca Hamilton is a Democratic Member of the Oklahoma House.
The articles she's referring to are here:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unequallyyoked/2012/09/ave-atque-vale-jen-mccreight.html
http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/09/goodbye-for-now/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag
whathehell
(29,067 posts)and here I thought those atheists were so morally superior, and that misogyny and every
other sort of ignorant, hateful behavior in the world was the fault of "religion". .
digonswine
(1,485 posts)I can't speak for us all, but we tend to think of things more deeply than do the faithful. I think that this is BS claim made on behalf of those with a side. Atheism is not a men's club-it is not a club at all. If someone is harassed by an atheist in that way, it says nothing about atheists but about individuals.
Atheists are people. People are ignorant, selfish, self-involved, and mammalian.
I like to look at things through the lens of reality, through a judgement-free filter. Others don't. Show me where others here who have no faith show their hatred for women,.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Where do you get that idea?
Some theists think very deeply. Others not deeply at all.
Some atheists think very deeply. Others not deeply at all.
I've yet to see any kind of study that would substantiate that there is a significant difference in "deep thinking" between the two groups.
Bigotry and hate can exist in and corrupt any group or organization, and it is the responsibility of those who hold membership in those groups to challenge it. That goes for the the Catholic Church and for any atheist organizations where this might be occurring.
The harassment spoken of here has been echoed by a number of women from different secular organizations that identify themselves as atheist advocacy groups. The only stats I have seen do indeed show these to be primarily dominated by white men. So it does appear that there might be some truth to the "men's club".
No one said it was occurring here, just that it is occurring.
digonswine
(1,485 posts)I saw only references to people acting as misogynists and not those doing it. Perhaps I missed where to look-could be. Really.
I do think, however, that religious folk are actually commanded to be this way.
Please point me in the right direction re: this story. I do mean this, by the way.
If a group mistreats a person based on his or her chromosomal makeup--I will be offended.
I will say, though--that thinking atheists would be the least likely to do that. With no evidence.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Many religious folk would emphatically deny that they are commanded to be misogynists. In fact, many would argue that they are *commanded* to be just the opposite.
There are some links at the bottom of this piece that will give you more info. There have also been a number of OP's in this group which have discussed it. Unfortunately, I can't search for them because the search function is turned off due to high traffic here.
But you can probably find them pretty easily if you are interested. There is a new group calling themselves Atheist+ which formed in large part to address the problems.
There is evidence available and no group, including atheists, is immune from sexism and misogyny. And no group can claim that they are somehow morally superior and can, therefore, just brush it off.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)So many here who vilify "the religious" seem actually quite clueless about
the wide diversity of world religions and their very DIFFERENT beliefs.
When they say "religion" here, most, in my experience are actually referring to
Right Wing Christian Fundamentalists, who, though growing in number in this country,
are actually a minority in America, let alone around the world.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)everyone who calls themselves christian, or even just religious, are often painted with the same brush.
The inability or unwillingness of others to discriminate between different groups is a big problem, but so is the complacency of the progressive/religious leaders and communities.
Progressive people of faith are still here, still active and need to be more vocal.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)A professor of mine in college told me that, historically, the "turn" of centuries,
tends to bring out fears of the world ending in Christian cultures and the
end of a Millennium brings it out Big Time and, sure enough, my own limited research on the
topic bore out his theory.
I bought a book called "1000 A.D." and it seems that Christian
Europe was freaking out, getting suddenly "religious" just as as modern culture seems to be doing.
Last minute acts of sever penance and alms giving (one noble gave away all his property)
were the order of the day.....When the clock struck midnight on 1001....Well,
you can imagine a lot of people were relieved -- but some had reasons for regret
as well.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)looking at a group of formerly quiet people who were ripe for the picking.
They had two main issues - abortion and GLBT rights, and they were promised that both of these would be at the top of the priority list.
Which they weren't and after 8 years, not much had been done to satisfy them at all.
But, in the interim, they became a dynamic political force and remain one today.
Time for liberal/progressive people of faith to take it back.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)was just starting to flex their muscle...We thought it would be "temporary".
Being a boomer and having grown up in what's now being called the "Golden Age" of American -- fifties through late seventies -- I've
really not adjusted to these whack jobs...I grew up in a large, northeastern city of Catholics, mainstream Protestants and Jews,
and everyone got along pretty well...Seriously, in an urban environment of the Northern part of the country,
especially, I suspect, the "Northeastern" part of the country which I suspect was THE most "diverse" part of it,
no one really talked about religion and people were generally tolerant...They were neighbors, They went to their own houses of
worship, worked together, lived together, and it was simply NOT an issue....Separation of Church and State was not even
questioned. People like Michelle Bachman and such would have never even MADE the national stage...People like that would have
been LAUGHED off the stage...Sure, there was some buzz about John Kennedy and his Catholicism, but they
got over it and that was that...This "America" that I'm living in now is SO much different than the one I grew up in.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)is identical to the definition of God we find among those who want to slam all religion. It is an easy target.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)but that only frustrates them, as they seem to be bursting with anger.
They tend to do what Romney does, according to Obama: "shoot first and aim later".
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)I agree completely with your last paragraph. No group is immune.
In the spirit of this unique occasion, I will forego comment on the rest of your post.
Julie
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Stick around DU for awhile, though. You will see it crop up
among men of all faiths and NO faith.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)will tell you, day in and day out, that "religion" -- never mind the type or the culture it comes out of -- is
the "source of all evils" in the world, and while there's no question that religion, especially those of the fundamentalist
variety, CAN be harmful, it really DOES help to "differentiate", for instance, between a Reform Jew living, in say,
the United States or Europe, and a virulently Fundamentalist Muslim living in a poor, uneducated area
of Pakistan or Afghanistan....They both represent "religions", but there really is a HUGE difference in
practice and beliefs.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)where DU atheists state that religion is the "source of all evils"?
whathehell
(29,067 posts)The most recent "dust up", actually, was not that long ago and it concerned
a young middle eastern girl -- eleven years old and developmentally disabled.
Some muslims in her area (her family was Christian) were furious, threatening to
arrest her for supposedly "blaspheming" the Koran. DUers were weighing in on it like
crazy and quite a FEW said things like "Religion...it so destructive, etc." as if this was simply
a matter of "religion", like maybe your local methodist congregation...Indeed, more than
one said things like "It's just a matter of time before it happens here"
and utter nonsense like that. Trying to tell these people that blaming awful incidents like
this on "Religion", without specificity is like blaming "Government" for Stalin and is really NOT
on, as they say, I STILL got pushback.
When I, and a few of the cooler heads pointed out that western culture is very different
and the US, for one, has a "separation of church and state", not to mention a disinclination
to arrest retarded for any such thing, people, I think, started to "get it".
Thankfully, for the little girl herself, some enlightened Imams REFUSED to charge the kid
with anything, and later, it was found out, some creepy cleric admitted to lying about it.
I will try and find those threads.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)Any others?
cordelia
(2,174 posts)But they're in the Atheist/Agnostic group which I respect as a safe haven.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)I admit I took liberty in conflating "poison" and "evil".
http://www.democraticunderground.com/121845774
http://www.democraticunderground.com/121845774#post1
cordelia
(2,174 posts)cordelia
(2,174 posts)cordelia
(2,174 posts)cordelia
(2,174 posts)LARED
(11,735 posts)And how would you know this?
whathehell
(29,067 posts)we never see atheists here doing that to theists, do we?
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)At this rate the atheists will be able to give the followers of bible-god a run for their money on this misogyny thing.
I'd better start shopping for head coverings.
Julie
whathehell
(29,067 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)for arrogant claims of moral superiority. All atheists claim is that religion is not necessary to be a moral person, and that lack of religion does not preclude it. No claim is made that lack of religion guarantees morality.
But you know this, don't you? So why are you tossing out such idiotic straw men?
Oh...wait...
whathehell
(29,067 posts)"All atheists claim is that religion is not necessary to be a moral person, and that lack of religion does not preclude it"
Oh bullshit...They claim a LOT more than that.
"No claim is made that lack of religion guarantees morality"
Really?...Could have fooled me....The idea that religion is the source of all evil in the world
is expressed here almost daily. Talk about "idiotic straw men".
Stick your insulting little rant, bro...If you don't like what I say, you only
need to remember that Ignore is your friend.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)you're really not very smart, are you?
Do you really need it explained that I was talking about what atheists claim with regard the specific issue at hand? Apparently.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)My I.Q. ranks in the top two percent of the population,
so it's likely you who doesn't "get it"....Please join the
rest of the dummies on my Ignore List.
Jim__
(14,075 posts)On just about any site that you go to there is a population of idiots who make rational discussion all but impossible. It's too bad. The internet is a great opportunity to give everyone a voice. We need to find a way to make it work.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)Self-esteem problems? Fear? Need of validation? I don't know.
rug
(82,333 posts)Are you defending this?
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)Thanks for being such a prolific source of it.
rug
(82,333 posts)You do . . . . what?
Type out sad little ad hominems?
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)I ruin your day by making it known that we exist.
rug
(82,333 posts)not to mention of the world you live in.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)mr blur
(7,753 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)as I was typing.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)directly into our brains by Satan while we shriek madly and drink Xian baby's blood.
Silent3
(15,210 posts)...when the Christian baby's blood isn't warm and fresh enough. Pisses me off.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)but here's the line-up for the FFRF convention next month:
Sara Paretsky
Julia Sweeney
Katherine Stewart
Teresa MacBain
Jerry DeWitt
Annalise Fonza
Jessica Ahlquist
Max Nielsen
Dan Barker & Annie Laurie Gaylor (founders of FFRF)
http://ffrf.org/outreach/convention/
But, hey, don't let the line-up of women speaking at this national convention stop you from trying to make your church's HORRIBLE fucking record with women and gays look a tiny speck better with some manufactured drama about the evil atheists being part of a he-man woman hater's club.
Edited to add: But of course you knew this, rug, from your lurking in the A/A group. Not sure if that makes you posting this article better or worse.
Edited again to add: Fuck it, it clearly makes it worse.
rug
(82,333 posts)Oh, wait.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)It's not the RCC where the only women in leadership positions are....oh, wait.
rug
(82,333 posts)Let's talk about the FFRF, the RCC . . . . and butterflies.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I'm just saying that there are other women speaking at the convention. Do you think they are just pawns of the evil men?
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)a speakers' list at an FFRF convention,
two references to the RCC,
and a statement that she's not the only female atheist.
A truck staring at a penny is as relevant.
BTW, your sentence, "Do you think they are just pawns of the evil men?", is telling.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I am not happy that this is going on in the atheist community.
I do not think it is widespread in the community. I do not think it is representative of what happens.
Do you want to compare this instance with organized religion to see who's doing better? We could start with your church.
rug
(82,333 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Some atheists are misogynists. On the other hand atheists have not institutionalized misogyny.
rug
(82,333 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Gooooooo team!
rug
(82,333 posts)Read Canon Law. They might have only mentioned it in passing in your high school seminary.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)The Church IS the clergy. The congregation are followers but not part of the real Church. Over and over again, throughout the centuries and up to today, the Church has shown that they will always protect themselves, even to the detriment of the church goers. Too bad most Catholics don't see this.
rug
(82,333 posts)You should check out some of the documents of Vatican II. They go a long way in explaining how the church is supposed to be. The entrenched authorities are striving mightily to maintain unwarranted authority. The fight continues.
i.e. the conservative clergy that now run it, have always hated Vatican II.
I maintain that it is not just my belief that it is the clergy that is the actual Church and the congregation just the customers, but this is the thinking withing the Vatican and Priesthood. It explains most of their actions to me. No better demonstrated than by the pedophile scandal, when the clear choice was child rapist priest over the Church member victims.
Of course others might disagree, just my observed opinion.
onager
(9,356 posts)Unfortunately, it's mostly coming from a couple of atheist-bashers who are WAY behind the curve on this whole thing. And never knew much about the whole thing in the first place.
It is deliciously ironic that I see so many links to Freethoughtblogs. That's where P.Z. Myers hangs out, and he offended the Catholics a couple years ago by mutilating a cracker or something. I guess "enemy of my enemy is my friend" and all that.
(Just a friendly clue, bashers - FTB isn't the only star in this reality show. Google "The Slyme Pit." After that, you might poke around the Rational Skepticism site, JREF and a few more. And bring provisions - you'll be there a while.)
But let's check out some of these misogyny claims.
For example, would Dr. Harriet A. Hall be considered a "misogynist?"
Well, let's see. She's a retired Air Force Colonel, pilot, physician and IIRC the first women ever qualified as a Flight Surgeon.
The title of her 2008 biography is "Women Aren't Supposed to Fly : The Memoirs of a Female Flight Surgeon." Because on one of her first official USAF flights, a male officer literally told her "women aren't supposed to fly."
She's also author of the "Skepdoc" column in Skeptic magazine, and a very frequent speaker at atheist/skeptical meetups.
In fact, she just recently spoke at The Amazing Meeting (TAM) in Las Vegas. Check out the T-shirt she wore at TAM:
Front of shirt: "I Feel Safe & Welcome At TAM:"
Back of shirt: "I'm a skeptic. Not a 'skepchick.' Not a 'woman skeptic.' Just a skeptic:"
rug
(82,333 posts)JoeyT
(6,785 posts)if someone that was say....a Catholic...wanted to hold something up as an example of what not to do on the internet, there are better choices to make. If they were interested in making a point rather than smearing, a good choice might be the death threat campaign Catholics waged against PZ over Crackergate.
Or the situation that kicked off Crackergate in the first place: A kid sneaking a communion wafer out of a cathedral that netted him massive amounts of death threats to him and his family and a coordinated effort to get him kicked out of his college.
longship
(40,416 posts)This whole thing started when Rebecca Watson blogged about being hit on in an elevator by some guy. Her take away was to say merely that it wasn't a very nice experience for her.
The atheist Blogosphere exploded with all sorts of hateful posts from guys who exhibited the most horrendous misogyny. I do not know if these were trolls, likely some were, but I was repulsed by it. The Blogosphere also exploded with many stories from other women attendees at conferences who had similar experiences. This became an issue, no matter what your position is.
Then, Rebecca asked DJ Grothe about what procedures would be in place for the upcoming TAM to keep women attendees safe from harassment. DJ basically dismissed her allegations and blew her off (figuratively -- this is a serious post).
Rebecca Watson declined attendance at TAM this year, and many women undoubtedly followed her lead. The percentage of women attendees was down this year, as was overall attendance.
Those are the facts. The following is my take on this.
DJ Grothe should have been immediately fired as JREF President. That it has not already happened is a bit shocking to me. He handled this very poorly and subjected the JREF to a scandal that could have been easily avoided. The fact that he dismissed the allegations by Rebecca and other women was crass and callous. (I posit that may have something to do with the rather large libertarian contingent within the skeptical community, of which DJ is one. FUCK Ayn Rand, DJ! There's some sexism for him.)
Now there is a movement to remove Rebecca Watson from the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast. Piffle!!! That's the best of the best and Rebecca's snark is part of what it makes it the best. Yes, she has a hopelessly unrepressed ego. But, Jay, Bob, and Evan keep it in check with their barbs. Poor, Steve who has to edit the damned thing every week -- without failure -- since Spring, 2006. And still the best. But I still miss Perry DeAngelis.
I am firmly on Rebecca's side here. Women have the right to feel safe and physically unthreatened no matter what they are doing, and especially when they are in a social environment.
The responses to this by many guys utterly disgusts me. I am ashamed of my gender, totally ashamed.
That's my take on this.
rug
(82,333 posts)onager
(9,356 posts)Longship's post is coming from only one POV, the Skepchick/Freethoughtblogs side.
Not a word about some very well-known incidents in which that side didn't exactly cover itself in glory.
But make up your own minds. Here are two historical timelines of the whole story.
This one, from Freethought Kampala, is very detailed and includes videos, links etc. to verify everything stated. It starts with Rebecca Watson's original "Guys Don't Do That" video:
http://freethoughtkampala.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/elevatorgate/
Since Longship covered the FTB/Skepchick side, here's another timeline from the Phawrongula Wiki. Definitely biased toward the other side:
http://phawrongula.wikia.com/wiki/Freethoughtblogs_timeline
The claim that JREF did not have a harassment policy in place for TAM is just wrong. Saying it was a "secret" or "hidden" policy is also wrong.
The policy was right there in the TAM FAQ, available to anyone visiting the JREF site:
http://www.amazingmeeting.com/TAM2012/faq
FTR, TAM was held at the South Point Hotel Casino and Spa. That casino is VERY tough on security. Visitors can be thrown out just for being "annoying." Its security staff includes female military veterans. In cases of suspected sexual harassment, casino policy is to send a female officer to investigate immediately. (All this was covered on a TV show, "Vegas Stripped" on the Travel Channel.)
Anyone got any stats on how many incidents of actual harassment happened at TAM this year? I do, but I'd like to hear from all you real experts who keep harping on this tremendous problem in the atheist/skeptical community.
rug
(82,333 posts)Pathetic.
onager
(9,356 posts)Uh-oh. Now you'll just HAVE to try and get ANOTHER last word in.
Oh, please. You compare the blowback these pigs are getting to the Inquisition?
Try the Wiki entry on "humor."
rug
(82,333 posts)Try the Wiki entry on "hypocrisy" as well as "hyperbole".
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Having been a member of a heavily male dominated group for many years, I know how this can go. Often there is a lot of nodding and winking, particularly at conventions, and it isn't until somebody starts screaming that anyone pays attention.
I see the same kind of "blow off" going on around here. The fact is that the growing organized atheist movement is heavily white, straight, male dominated (talk about position of privilege) and there needs to be some attention paid to the complaints of people who are not all of those things.
At a time when the movement is trying to gain some notice and credibility, it is critical to address this.
Those that dismiss it do so at their own peril.
longship
(40,416 posts)Concerning their peril. They have already managed to sever off a chunk of the movement. It's stunning that Atheism+ would have to be formed for women to feel safe. Absolutely stunning. Just because some real jerk guys do not recognize gender equality.
I am especially pissed at DJ who should know better. He's an out gay.
Anthony McCarthy
(507 posts)Organized atheism has always been a mean-spirited boys club, it has been since at least the founding of CSICOP and before. And CSICOP was, really, founded to attack religion as much as it was ufology and horoscopes. If you read the history of the effort you'l. l find male domination, sexism and a Chick Publications level PR effort of appeals to bigotry and dishonest smears.
If women want to organize around atheism, they'll find it as necessary to do that themselves or they'll find they are constantly dealing with the boys. Just as the Catholic Women Priests had to (look them up).
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)welcome to du.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I wasn't familiar with CSICOP but found the research I did on it this morning pretty interesting. Didn't know about the RCWP either.
Atheism+ appears to be a movement driven by women to address some of the problems. Will be interesting to see if it gets off the ground.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)JoeyT
(6,785 posts)The harassment was there, and is being dealt with with harassment policies. The exclusionary thinking was there, and it's melting away. The trolling and bullying was a very small very loud minority.
The harassment and bullying is far less common than in any other population. The difference is people in our group can speak out without anyone invoking divine will to shut them up, so people outside the group get to hear about it. We don't shun or excommunicate members that make us look bad.
I'm not sure why us fighting to hold ourselves to a higher standard is supposed to reflect poorly on us. It isn't happening in many other groups, certainly not in the one Hamilton represents. She might wanna get that beam looked at before it causes permanent vision damage and let us worry about the splinter in ours.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)You just made that up.
Invented statistics are wonderful things.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)Ted Seeber says:
September 12, 2012 at 2:43 pm
My real problem is that the word now means almost nothing.
Pro-lifers are misogynists. Mens groups are misogynist. The Knights of Columbus is Misogynist.
This gets to the level it did with my mistaken responses to Leahs posts. I failed to see the real misogyny going on because of all the fake charges of misogyny out there.
And I still do not understand how chainsaws and rape go together. Chainsaws to me are a tool only to be used on trees.
Reply
Rebecca Hamilton says:
September 13, 2012 at 12:49 am
I agreee. People use serious words like misogyny for their shock value, and by so doing, cheapen them and us.
Reply
Hurr durr. Teh wimmenz should be quiet unless they're hating on atheists!
Rep. Hamilton authored a 2005 law hailed as the most significant piece of pro-life legislation in Oklahoma in 30 years.
She also passed the bill outlawing elective abortions in state-funded hospitals
She has passed pro life bills requiring informed consent, parental notification, and limiting forced abortions.
Rep. Hamilton has also authored legislation ensuring taxpayers are not forced to subsidize elective abortions
This is a fucking joke, right?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)other than a reiteration of the rather uninteresting discovery that some men are pigs, some men are atheists and some men happen to be both?
Do any atheist organizations have as one of their fundamental principles that there are certain jobs within the organization that woman are not allowed to hold? Do any atheists organizations hold it as an article of faith that women should submit to their husbands in all things? Gee...
rug
(82,333 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)But as typically content-free as all of your responses on these issues.