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rug

(82,333 posts)
Tue Aug 16, 2016, 07:07 AM Aug 2016

Are you an atheist wanting to talk faith with a believer? There's an app for that.

by KATU.com Staff
Monday, August 15th 2016

PORTLAND, Ore. -- A Portland State University philosophy professor and a team of students have created a new app designed to connect Atheists with believers.

"Atheos" aims to create a "respectful debate" between believers and non-believers.

“There are ways to have productive, civil conversations about contentious issues such as religion, faith, supernatural beliefs, even politics,” Philosophy Professor Peter Boghossian said, adding his goal was to give users the "confidence and tools" to have challenging conversations.

The app teaches the Socratic Method through game play, including quizzes and immediate feedback.
An introductory version of the app is free, and the full version costs $4.99.

http://katu.com/news/local/are-you-an-atheist-wanting-to-talk-faith-with-a-believer-theres-an-app-for-that



http://www.atheos-app.com/
46 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Are you an atheist wanting to talk faith with a believer? There's an app for that. (Original Post) rug Aug 2016 OP
I am too biased Lunabell Aug 2016 #1
I look at it more like brainwashing Angry Dragon Aug 2016 #2
"said the pot to the kettle"... jonno99 Aug 2016 #5
???????? Angry Dragon Aug 2016 #7
Science is brainwashing? Brettongarcia Aug 2016 #19
I call propagating this sort of thinking "brainwashing": jonno99 Aug 2016 #21
You're not biased, you're reality-based, and since religion isn't based in reality... cleanhippie Aug 2016 #3
Hmmm...Do you not take it "on faith" that eventually we'll figure out jonno99 Aug 2016 #4
No, it's taken that science will find the answers to those questions. cleanhippie Aug 2016 #8
So we are in agreement then, your faith in science is strong...nt jonno99 Aug 2016 #9
You are equivocating on the meaning of 'faith.' immoderate Aug 2016 #10
Faith: jonno99 Aug 2016 #11
Yes I do. AAMOF, I think it's pretty much in the bag. immoderate Aug 2016 #12
In the bag? Not really. jonno99 Aug 2016 #15
That's why I avoid using 'faith' that way. Fundies equivocate. immoderate Aug 2016 #16
Chuckles. Plausible? jonno99 Aug 2016 #22
You are right. I don't act out of faith. It's totally useless. immoderate Aug 2016 #23
And yet there is no actual evidence that life formed naturally - only your "feeling" jonno99 Aug 2016 #25
Of course there's lots of evidence. OTOH "the Creator" is a feeling. immoderate Aug 2016 #27
No. Belief in something "for which there is no proof" Brettongarcia Aug 2016 #17
"Faith". Lol. cleanhippie Aug 2016 #13
"science will find the answers to those questions." rug Aug 2016 #14
The proven record of science to date is incredible. Brettongarcia Aug 2016 #18
No, what I am putting down is starry-eyed expectations. rug Aug 2016 #20
You have determined the limits of science? How? By revelation? immoderate Aug 2016 #24
I have determined that science, like all known things is limited. rug Aug 2016 #26
Are the limits of science known? How do you know? immoderate Aug 2016 #28
Naturally. rug Aug 2016 #29
How will we know when we reach the limits of science? immoderate Aug 2016 #30
You assume our ability to learn is greater that what there is to learn. rug Aug 2016 #31
Can you characterize the kinds of things that cannot be known? immoderate Aug 2016 #32
By science, I presume. rug Aug 2016 #33
My bad! I left you that loophole. immoderate Aug 2016 #34
The blobfish will never be explained. rug Aug 2016 #36
Sure. It's pointless. Leastways, I don't detect one. immoderate Aug 2016 #37
This message was self-deleted by its author cleanhippie Aug 2016 #38
Given the incredible successes of science to date? Brettongarcia Aug 2016 #40
The question is whether there iare limits to what science can explain. rug Aug 2016 #42
Trying to focus just on the inanimate-to-animate moment... Brettongarcia Aug 2016 #43
Actually, that's the stronger pro-science argument. rug Aug 2016 #44
Meeting intolerance with intolerance? guillaumeb Aug 2016 #35
No, more like meeting ignorance and bigotry with intolerance. Lunabell Aug 2016 #39
Which of these three qualities is more desirable? guillaumeb Aug 2016 #41
Too namby pamby for me. Lunabell Aug 2016 #45
Dialogue does not equate to surrender. eom guillaumeb Aug 2016 #46
"I don't like talking to real people -- but an app I can handle!" struggle4progress Aug 2016 #6

Lunabell

(6,080 posts)
1. I am too biased
Tue Aug 16, 2016, 08:13 AM
Aug 2016

To have a debate with the religious crowd. It's like arguing with a block. They take everything "on faith ". No critical thinking at all.

jonno99

(2,620 posts)
21. I call propagating this sort of thinking "brainwashing":
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 01:45 PM
Aug 2016
They take everything "on faith ". No critical thinking at all.


But to be charitable, maybe it's just good-natured hyperbole.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
3. You're not biased, you're reality-based, and since religion isn't based in reality...
Tue Aug 16, 2016, 04:07 PM
Aug 2016

You're never going to have a meaningful debate with a religious believer in that topic.

jonno99

(2,620 posts)
4. Hmmm...Do you not take it "on faith" that eventually we'll figure out
Tue Aug 16, 2016, 06:42 PM
Aug 2016

how living cells came about from inanimate matter?

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
8. No, it's taken that science will find the answers to those questions.
Wed Aug 17, 2016, 04:22 PM
Aug 2016

Religion will never have the answer.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
10. You are equivocating on the meaning of 'faith.'
Wed Aug 17, 2016, 07:21 PM
Aug 2016

Science works against faith.

Faith in God is different than faith that the sun will rise. For shame!

--imm

jonno99

(2,620 posts)
11. Faith:
Wed Aug 17, 2016, 09:41 PM
Aug 2016

1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

I'll restate my original question:
Do you have confidence that eventually scientists will figure out how living cells came about from inanimate matter?

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
12. Yes I do. AAMOF, I think it's pretty much in the bag.
Wed Aug 17, 2016, 10:48 PM
Aug 2016

The main problem is simulating the exact conditions that existed on earth at the time, which are unknown. The Miller–Urey experiment showed that it is plausible for life to form under what was thought to be primitive earth conditions at the time.

More recently this article:

From the standpoint of physics, there is one essential difference between living things and inanimate clumps of carbon atoms: The former tend to be much better at capturing energy from their environment and dissipating that energy as heat. Jeremy England, a 31-year-old assistant professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has derived a mathematical formula that he believes explains this capacity. The formula, based on established physics, indicates that when a group of atoms is driven by an external source of energy (like the sun or chemical fuel) and surrounded by a heat bath (like the ocean or atmosphere), it will often gradually restructure itself in order to dissipate increasingly more energy. This could mean that under certain conditions, matter inexorably acquires the key physical attribute associated with life. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-new-physics-theory-of-life/


IOW, life is an emergent behavior of matter in a fluid energy bath.

I generally restrict the word faith for phenomena that cannot be observed.

--imm

jonno99

(2,620 posts)
15. In the bag? Not really.
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 11:33 AM
Aug 2016

While Miller–Urey proved that under guided conditions, certain amino acids could form, this is a far, far cry from proving that "natural" molecular self-replication is possible.

I generally restrict the word faith for phenomena that cannot be observed.

"Faith" is simply a word that describes an attitude or a way of thinking. Saying "I think", or "it's... in the bag" is just a way of stating that you are confident in your line of reasoning.

As of yet there is no proof that a natural mechanism exists for abiogenesis - and yet your are confident that "it's pretty much in the bag" - the unproven and the unobserved. By your own definition, you are acting "on faith".

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
16. That's why I avoid using 'faith' that way. Fundies equivocate.
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 12:45 PM
Aug 2016

Plausible explanations are different from supernatural events. And scientist don't "prove" things.

There are other differences between Miller and nature. How nice of you to ignore them.

--imm

jonno99

(2,620 posts)
22. Chuckles. Plausible?
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 01:47 PM
Aug 2016
There are other differences between Miller and nature. How nice of you to ignore them.

Well, you claimed that Miller
...showed that it is plausible for life to form under what was thought to be primitive earth conditions at the time.
But Miller did no such thing.

You're working very hard to try to prove that you don't act "out of faith", however, leaving the faith word aside, your confident position on unproved phenomena is really no different from the person who accepts the supernatural as a "plausible" explanation for that same phenomena.


jonno99

(2,620 posts)
25. And yet there is no actual evidence that life formed naturally - only your "feeling"
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 02:27 PM
Aug 2016

that the proof of it is "in the bag".

If your confidence that life can form naturally is not really "faith" - using your definition:

I generally restrict the word faith for phenomena that cannot be observed.
- what would you call it? A strong feeling? A best guess?





 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
27. Of course there's lots of evidence. OTOH "the Creator" is a feeling.
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 05:49 PM
Aug 2016

There is profuse evidence that amino acids, complex compounds, (the so-called "building blocks of life,&quot occur in many natural situations. For instance, they're found in meteors. From outer space. Also, 'emergent behaviors' can be observed, in humans, in animals, and in artificially created 'cellular automatons' as per the work of John Conway. Basic math. So far all facts, right?

Then there's the second law of thermodynamics. I assure you, that does not result from my feeling! It's the reason rocks roll downhill, (and superseded the previous explanation, that God wants it.) So far, good solid science, right? Also, to be fair to Miller, his experiment ran for several hours, in a bottle. The planet itself, had millions of cubic miles of ocean, (electrolyte) ample access to minerals, energy from a nearby star, and a billion years to play in. Facts. (Does guided experiment mean faked? What does it mean? Can you be specific? Would you call the universe guided? By?)

It can also be observed that the universe has a tendency toward entropy. That's what Jeremy England's papers show. (Nice how you can reject them without reading.) That's also math and accepted by peers. Where it's speculative, nevertheless plausible, is that since life accelerates entropy, then life, where possible, will be generated by emergent actions. Again this last part is hypothetical, but not contradicted by any observed phenomena. I do not profess more than a basic understanding of this physics. But I'll contrast that with your total lack of understanding. Also information theory, complexity theory, and chaos theory, all provide frameworks which converge around the plausibility of gratuitous generation of life. That's all evidence. It converges.

OK, where's your evidence? (Look at the sky! Look at the trees! ?)

--imm

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
17. No. Belief in something "for which there is no proof"
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 01:15 PM
Aug 2016

Look at the longer definition of faith in Webster's.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
18. The proven record of science to date is incredible.
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 01:18 PM
Aug 2016

You're putting down science and technology by the way, on a cell phone.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
20. No, what I am putting down is starry-eyed expectations.
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 01:28 PM
Aug 2016

The poster wrote, ""science will find the answers to those questions."

Not has. Not has a good record. Will.

In doing so, he expressed the belief, the hope, that science will find the answers. Unqualifiedly.

In short, the power of science to find answers is unlimited.

That's bunk, that's hope, that's faith. That's bullshit.

It's also unscientific.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
26. I have determined that science, like all known things is limited.
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 04:14 PM
Aug 2016

The poster, apparently on faith, asserts the contrary.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
29. Naturally.
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 06:07 PM
Aug 2016

That's the answer to both your questions. Nothing that occurs naturally is unlimited.

BTW, you do realize science is simply a method. A method devised and used by human beings. It has no independent existence. Are you saying human beings are unlimited, augmented by scientific techniques or not?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
31. You assume our ability to learn is greater that what there is to learn.
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 06:43 PM
Aug 2016

My cat, upon encountering an open can, may think there's nothing else to consider.

So yes, there is a limit to knowledge. But that limited knowledge does not delineate all that there is.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
32. Can you characterize the kinds of things that cannot be known?
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 07:01 PM
Aug 2016

And you assumed I made that assumption. I didn't.

--imm

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
33. By science, I presume.
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 07:24 PM
Aug 2016

Origin.

End.

Volition.

Purpose.

Good.

Bad.

I suggest the first three will not be known by science and that the last three can not be known by science.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
34. My bad! I left you that loophole.
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 07:49 PM
Aug 2016

I presume you are saying then, that there is no limit on scientific knowledge.

--imm

Response to rug (Reply #20)

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
40. Given the incredible successes of science to date?
Fri Aug 19, 2016, 09:39 AM
Aug 2016

It seems like a very reasonable hypothesis, one firmly based on past evidence, to predict that it will solve this problem too.

Christians always stress any gaps. In fact, they have a "God of the gaps." But? The gaps by now are pretty small.

So you guys oppose evolution? Note that geology and evolution confirm a barren earth, followed over millions of years by very primitive and then increasingly complex life forms.

Extrapolating backwards, it seems that the Biblical account is clearly false. And that evolution from inanimate matter, ultimately, is a far more probable scenario.

So we have certainty on this? Not yet. But we have an extremely, extremely high degree of probability. Quite a bit higher - a hundred times higher say - than miracolous creation.

Seriously: you guys are opposing ... Evolution ?!?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
42. The question is whether there iare limits to what science can explain.
Fri Aug 19, 2016, 10:07 AM
Aug 2016

Clearly there are.

Tracing back through this thread, the original question was "how living cells came about from inanimate matter".

That is a discrete question that is subject to scientific examination and one that may be explained in one fashion or another. May.

What remains to be explained is how the inanimate matter came to be. Unlike the question of life which is in the realm of chemistry, biology, and physics, the answer to that question defies natural laws.

Now, since you're replying to me, who the fuck are "you guys"?

I'll leave you with one further question:

Seriously: you guys are proposing ... Omniscience ?!?

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
43. Trying to focus just on the inanimate-to-animate moment...
Fri Aug 19, 2016, 10:41 AM
Aug 2016

.. is a typical religious strategy: leave out the larger body of evidence. Focusing just on the small gaps.

The overall picture is that science works say, a trillion times better than praying for miracles. And that evolution overall, has fit the evidence over and over. So if we go with the proven record? Evolution from inanimate matter is by far the most likely probability.

By the way? The Bible itself supports science. Dan. 1.4-15 KJE; 1 Kings 18.20-40; Mal. 3.10, etc.. And for that matter, so does the Church.

Interestingly, even the Bible has God creating man out of inanimate dirt, or "clay."

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
44. Actually, that's the stronger pro-science argument.
Fri Aug 19, 2016, 10:51 AM
Aug 2016

Trying to focus on evolution as disproof of religious belief is the more typical, and weaker, pro-science argument.

I'm glad you agree that the Roman Catholic Church supports science.

Yes, the root of the name Adam is the Hebrew adamah, meaning "ground". Similarly, human comes from the Latin humus, meaning earth, ground, or soil.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
35. Meeting intolerance with intolerance?
Thu Aug 18, 2016, 07:59 PM
Aug 2016

Do you only talk with people with whom you are in 100% agreement?

That is called a monologue.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
41. Which of these three qualities is more desirable?
Fri Aug 19, 2016, 10:06 AM
Aug 2016

1) Ignorance, by which I think you mean basic ignorance of fact, or

2) bigotry, by which I think you mean racial and/or ethnic prejudice, or

3) intolerance, by which I think you mean your own intolerance for 1 and 2?

If you choose intolerance, and avoidance, how can barriers ever be broken down? Only dialogue can break down barriers.

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