If prayer did anything you wouldn't have to inform the world you are praying.

[AtheistCrusader]

Instead of prayer threads, you would instead have the recipients posting threads unbidden, thanking you for praying. But you never will. Because prayer does nothing and goes nowhere.

If it did, you wouldn't feel compelled to tell everyone you're doing it as hard as you can. THEY WOULD KNOW.

[phil89]

1. It's just

Sad that magical thinking and such irrational garbage is being touted as something that helps. What century are we in?

[TreasonousBastard]

2. As has been mentioned many times...

Jesus told his followers to pray in private.

Loud, public prayers are simply demonstrations of ego, not spirituality.

[AtheistCrusader]

6. This is my understanding as well, or ought to be, for christians.

Other faiths, of course, have different doctrine around prayer for purpose or use.

[merrily]

79. I wish some of our politicians would take that part of the NT to heart.

Charitable contributions and deeds and prayer-private

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

3. not necessarily true.

If it's a matter of the placebo effect, or simply helps people who are religious to feel more relaxed if they think folks are praying for them, they may heal more easily. But in such cases the person in question is the one who needs to know they're being prayed for.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. when studied the opposite effect was observed.

Sick people who know that they are being prayed for have marginally worse outcomes than those who don't know that they are being prayed for.

[still_one]

4. This really upsets you about a person who finds value in prayer. Nobody forces anyone to pray,

unless of course the right wing take over, and mandate prayer in public schools, which would be unConstitutional and a violation of Church and State.

For some prayer is a form of contemplation, and sending good thoughts to those suffering.

I imagine using your logic that sending a condolence card would be a waste of time also.

Either way, anyone in this regard can do what they feel is appropriate, or not do anything at all.

I wonder though why some folks find it important to piss on someone's else parade, when as far as I am aware prayer doesn't harm anyone else?

[trotsky]

5. If the person praying finds value in it, then by all means they can pray.

Why do they have to brag about doing it in public?

[AtheistCrusader]

7. The only way to get extra credit, is to turn it in.

[BlueCaliDem]

10. As a Christian, I don't understand why some brag about praying in public, either.

As a Christian, I abhor that kind of practice and, instead, refer to:

Matthew 6: 5-6:
5: "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6: "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.…

[still_one]

15. Personally whether some "brags" about does not bother me one way or another. The only thing that

would bother me is if they told me I should pray or I should believe in a certain religion

[skepticscott]

8. When people think that prayer actually works

and try to heal their critically ill children through prayer alone, are you saying that does no harm?

Seriously?

[AtheistCrusader]

9. A condolence card is a material thing.

Hell, calling someone to tell them you are sorry and offer support is a material thing too.

Telling someone you're talking to your imaginary friend on their behalf? What is that? I mean really, what is that? Hope by proxy?

[skepticscott]

13. Actually letting someone know that they're thought of

is probably a benefit, and not very likely to do harm, but you can do that without having to "pray", and in many cases, people who do pray for someone else can't or don't let them know, so the benefit doesn't exist.

[still_one]

16. It is their issue not yours, no? Why would anyone care, unless they are trying to impose a belief

system on you

That is really my point

[AtheistCrusader]

17. If I see people bragging about something, I can and will respond to it.

Especially when I see a particularly distasteful behavior being illustrated.

[Starboard Tack]

18. Like bragging about how far they can throw a plowshare?

How would you respond to that?

[AtheistCrusader]

20. Ask them to empirically demonstrate.

Which, actually can be arranged. I've certainly cleared the tailgate of a pickup once.

[Starboard Tack]

21. I'm sure you have

Good to see you not bragging about it.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Au contraire

Demonstrating that a plowshare isn't necessarily indicative of peaceful intent.

[Starboard Tack]

24. Sure!

[mr blur]

14. "sending good thoughts to those suffering"?

And what the hell is that going to accomplish beyond a nice warm fuzzy feeling for the prayer?

Have you ever sent good thoughts to someone and had them phone you up and say, "Thanks, that really made all the difference?"

Or do you have "other ways of knowing" that it works, like others in this group?

[DetlefK]

11. Oh, there are more philosophical problems with praying.

So, God knows everything, right? And he is free to do as he pleases, because he is almighty. God won't let somebody put some psychological pressure on him, because then he wouldn't be almighty.



This means:

God has already decided what will happen, because he knows what will happen and he has the power to make it happen.

You can't change that, because you have no levee whatsoever over God, because he is almighty.

If your prayers don't change God, then you two are just "going through the motions". You ask him for a favor and he doesn't care, like an adult who doesn't trust a child with solving a complicated problem. He knows best. But you, the powerless child, ask him anyway. Over and over again. Because that's how your life is obviously supposed to be: You voice your wishes and somebody who knows better ignores them. Because he is all-knowing and almighty.

Could you simply skip it, stop praying and let God do his thing? Nope, you have to pray, you have to ask God for things, that's what organized religion says.
He insists that you ask him for favors, even though it's pointless because he has already figured out everything.

[LTX]

57. Give me a minute here . . .

Ok, I've got the straw piled up. Anybody got a match?

[DetlefK]

58. Yeah, I went over-the-top.

Sorry about that. Still, the concept of praying as asking for a favor doesn't match with the concept of God being all-mighty and all-knowing: Your prayer is futile because it won't change the outcome. The concept of praying as a communion with the divine and stuff, that makes more sense, at least philosophically.

[Binkie The Clown]

12. I keep praying that "true believers" will see the light.

Well, you see how much good that is doing.

[Starboard Tack]

22. I prayed hard last week

I didn't pray to any god, but I prayed hard for the survival of the person I love the most. I prayed in the name of all that is good and loving in this world, be it natural or supernatural.
Did it do any good? I don't know. It helped keep me awake and concentrate on a moonless night in less than ideal seas. She survived.
Prayer is a device we use when we have no control of events. Who or what one prays to is irrelevant. My point is that prayer is not exclusive to religious belief. Neither is spirituality.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. Who is 'we'?

Prayer is a device we use when we have no control of events. Who or what one prays to is irrelevant. My point is that prayer is not exclusive to religious belief. Neither is spirituality.

I don't know what 'we' means. Are you claiming all humans, or just Believers(TM), or semi-believers?

I will accept the next two sentences as some sort of supernatural-like faithy thing, not a specific religious thing, sure. An atheist would not overlap with that domain, however. If they do, they should probably re-examine the premise of what Atheism is, because it's just one answer to one question, and that would fall on the other side of that bifurcating test.

[Starboard Tack]

26. Humans

[AtheistCrusader]

28. Then no, 'we' do not.

And I'm not just speaking about myself as an exception, as I have some co-workers that insist I am not allowed to use myself as an example of anything normal WRT humans.

Especially in areas related to digestive systems. But generally as well.

[Starboard Tack]

33. We humans who do.

I understand that you are an exception.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. I am far from the only one.

[Starboard Tack]

45. Would it bother you if you were the only one?

Do you feel such a need to be part of a group that rejects prayer and all who pray?

[AtheistCrusader]

46. I don't, actually.

However, it is nice to find kindred spirits. Specially when I face such mundane casual soft bigotry as your horseshit upthread about how all humans pray.

As if I don't exist, or don't understand my own nature.

Thanks for that.

If you'd said 'most' I'd have accepted that and we could have perhaps had a productive conversation, but you came through with flying colors and slammed that door, so nevermind.

[Starboard Tack]

49. Except I didn't actually say that, but I might have

I'm sure you have an understanding of your own nature, as we all do. But those who encounter us also have an understanding of our nature, a more objective understanding.

I have no idea if all humans pray or not, and nor do I care, but there are times in life when it seems like the appropriate thing to do, because the tank is out of gas, the gun is out of ammo, the parachute failed to open, the hull is breached, the bilge pumps don't work, radio doesn't work, batteries are dead, you're completely exhausted and some asshole says "just give up", because praying, wishing, hoping, whatever you want you call it, is pointless. And it may well be pointless. So fucking what?
Praying, to me, is about not quitting, not giving up in the most hopeless situations. It is about holding onto a sliver of hope when all seems lost. It has nothing to do with deities or religion. It has everything to do with being human.
If someone else needs the symbolism of a god or savior to get through life's turmoils, what business is that of mine or yours?

[AtheistCrusader]

50. yeah, because posts 22/26 dont exist.

There are times in your life perhaps. Where it seems appropriate to you, perhaps.

What the fuck is it with people that have to act like they are being philosophical, but really, all they are doing is claiming the winning territory without actually substantiating their claim? I don't pray. It is not in my nature. Not to god, not to physics, nothing. Slipped my bike two feet sideways in a corner tonight because I caught some gravel at 50, on a blind curve, at dusk, where the limit was actually 35. Didn't know if I could keep it rubber side down. Didn't know if I was going to come round the corner and find my wife already went through the guardrail. No clue. But I can guarantee you this. No prayers were offered. It is not a thing that occurs to me. It is a subroutine that I do not possess. A language I do not speak. It is either an idea that does not occur to me or an idea others have suggested to me and I dismissed without a use for it.

There's no capacity to spare for prayer. My attention is fully devoted to the problem at hand. I have more important things to do than hope. That still holds in lower velocities, doing non-risky things.

It is at best, curious, and meaningless noise.

[Starboard Tack]

53. I don't believe you.

Not that I think you are being dishonest. I think you are locked into some preconception of what prayer constitutes. If you have ever wished or hoped for some outcome, then that is what I call prayer. If you haven't, then I can only assume that you are either very young and feel totally in control of your universe (not uncommon among young males), or you have convinced yourself that there is nothing you can't handle.
But, as I say, I do not believe you. Even though you carry a gun when on the trail, thinking it will help you if you find yourself in danger, I think you hope not to have to use it, and if you do have to use it, then you hope not to use it improperly. That moment when you decide to carry the gun is the one you need to examine, because if there is no reflection and wish to cause no harm, then I would encourage you to think twice before setting out. That moment of introspection counts as prayer and costs you nothing. It is not meaningless noise, but the difference between empathy and sociopathy.

[AtheistCrusader]

55. I am aware of a variety of forms of prayer that a variety of types of people exercise.

Their ways are clearly not my way. I am well aware there are problems I cannot handle. Failure and risk are intrinsic parts of success and reward. They balance the equation. Why on earth would I hope to tip the scales?

I use introspection for an entirely different purpose. You can expand and deform the term prayer all you want, I doubt you are doing to find me caught up by any of it.
Living by the non-aggression principle does not preclude being armed.

[upaloopa]

27. You don't know what is beyond your 5 sences.

6 sences if you are Buddhist.
My problem is that the anti praying crowd like the pro GMO crowd (most likely the same people) need to be insulting and intimidating and need to bully people. You are boorish!

[AtheistCrusader]

29. And what does it mean to me, when people who believe are prancing about self-congratulating themselv

es for, essentially, hoping really hard?

Am I allowed to view that as boorish?

Because I have other adjectives, but for the sake of conversation, that one will do.

[upaloopa]

30. It is none if your business if someone feels praying works

for them. Leave them alone!

[AtheistCrusader]

31. They make it my business when they frantically post about it all over DU.

It is, at least, of valid interest to me, and open to comment.

Don't presume to tell me what is and is not my business.

[Starboard Tack]

34. Looks like you're digging a big hole with that plowshare

You are not the prayer police.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. Did I say I was?

No I did not. You can't even manage a simple little reply like that without ginning up a strawman.

[Starboard Tack]

43. LOL Your entire OP is a strawman

You need to chillax. Quit worrying about what others do to get through life. If it bothers your ears, don't listen. If it bothers your eyes don't look.
Trust me, most of us pray at times. We may not call it praying, but we wish and we hope for good things to happen. No deities need be involved, no saviors or saints, just hope that things may turn out right. That is what prayer is really about.

[AtheistCrusader]

44. You're going to have to specify exacly how it's a strawman, because ive seen you

Use that term wrong before, and it sure smells like it now.

[Starboard Tack]

47. No I don't. It is your OP

You led yourself down this path and you need to address any questions you may have to yourself. What is this OP all about? Are you still trying to ingratiate yourself with the theophobes and antitheists who almost tossed you out of the basement for suggesting tolerance and not towing the line? Are you really that desperate to be accepted?

Problem is, they will never totally accept you, because you are too much of a loose cannon, not really a team player. Think for yourself too much, which is why some of us still have a modicum of respect for you.

There is nothing essentially wrong with being a bridge burner, unless you burn the wrong bridges.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. It would appear, again, that you don't actually know what a strawman fallacy is.

Your accusation, you support it.

[Starboard Tack]

51. Really? You can't see it for yourself?

You start by setting up your own fallacy

"If prayer did anything you wouldn't have to inform the world you are praying."
Here you make the following assumptions
1. That prayer is supposed to "do" something.
2. That those who pray have to inform the world.

Then you proceed to attack your own strawman
"Instead of prayer threads, you would instead have the recipients posting threads unbidden, thanking you for praying. But you never will. Because prayer does nothing and goes nowhere."

Then you construct another strawman
"If it did, you wouldn't feel compelled to tell everyone you're doing it as hard as you can. THEY WOULD KNOW."

Bottom line, you have a very narrow view about prayer and how others perceive it.
You might consider reading the views of others on this subject, especially if you seek enlightenment.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. Yeah, because I didn't just read a nearly 200 post thread about people parading their pious hopes

About like banners on high.

I joined in briefly along with the dozens of other skeptics, but it seemed like a better topic for this venue instead. (correct, GD isn't for that sort of religion thread.)

So we can dispense with your first two objections, as people clearly saw fit to respond with a notice they were participating, and the read/post count isn't unusual, so it looks like a fair number of posters damn well did so. Not out of proportion to other topics anyway. Some sure got upset when the skeptics showed up, so yeah, id say they were depending on it doing *something*. Clearly my op was targeted at those that believe in intercessory prayer, which is why you wont find too many Buddhists showing interest in it, for instance.

Third objection. Tell me then, where the fuck people are 'sending vibes' to, when they inform someone they are sending good vibes? Shouldn't the target know that?

Last objection; again, I refer you to the prayer thread in GD where at least a hundred people in fact felt it necessary to inform others of their hopey-ness, and to the fact this thread was obviously for those who believe in intercessory prayer.

You suck at identifying strawmen.

[rug]

42. It's still not your busines, it's Skinner's,

There are blowhards all over the joint on every conceivable topic, including getting pissed off about people praying.

And they come out and blow hard about it in public!

Can you imagine?

[Mariana]

41. If they wanted to be left alone

they would just go ahead and pray, and no one would say a word to them. When they post about their prayers in a public forum, it's because they want discussion to take place. People who pray are not required to advertise the fact. In fact, some religious leaders, like Jesus Christ, have strongly condemned such behavior.

[upaloopa]

60. Ridicule is not discussion!

[AtheistCrusader]

63. Telling me

"You don't know what is beyond your 5 sences." {sic}

Isn't discussion either. I know lots of things beyond my meager 5 senses, and the limited ability I have to see the electromagnetic spectrum.

Doesn't stop me from building machines that can interpret that data just fine, and represent it in a meaningful way within the boundaries of the visible spectrum my eyes can interpret.

When complaining about slammed doors, it helps if yours is still on the hinge, yourself. (Rather than on the ground in pieces)

[upaloopa]

65. Good observation. I didn't mean it to be discussion

I wouldn't discuss your point of view. I find it wrong and not with it.

[AtheistCrusader]

66. Not me.

When you, or someone brings compelling evidence to the table that there is a supernatural thingy out there, at all, to pray to, then I will be happy to listen to the why's, and reasons you may or may not pray to it.

Just bring some serious evidence. I'm all ears, even if you aren't.

[upaloopa]

71. That makes no sense. Bring material

evidence to prove to you there is something non material.
First it can't be done
Second it would be a waste of time

[AtheistCrusader]

74. Sure it can.

Let's say the universe must needs be created by a supernatural thingy. Even if we can't directly perceive that supernatural thingy, whatever it is, does that mean we can't also perceive whether or not the universe required a directing intelligence to be start? We can't see it, and we can't see the tools it wields, ok, but maybe we can see the tool-marks left by its actions?

We infer real data from things that cannot be directly perceived all the time, by the effect they have on other things.


"Second it would be a waste of time"

Must be nice to simply assert a win.

[upaloopa]

77. Ok I believe in the power of attraction

It has worked for me for many years. I don't think you would accept that or believe it so why should I waste time talking about it to you?

[AtheistCrusader]

80. If you had credible evidence to support it, I might be interested.

I take it you're not talking about the Strong Nuclear Force?

[upaloopa]

82. No not a nuclear force

All I have are stories about my life which you could easily dismiss as coincidence.
You can't have the kind of evidences you want because it doesn't exist.
To me and many others there is a force in life that can't be proved to you. It can only be known by experience.

[AtheistCrusader]

83. Anecdotes aren't proof.

I exist. I'm alive. I have plenty of anecdotal coincidences myself. They do not amount to proof. Not to me, and not to anyone I would turn around and show those incidents to.

"You can't have the kind of evidences you want because it doesn't exist."

Why? Why do you assume that evidence does not or can not exist? I'm confused on that point.

My father and I are 3 days apart on our birthdays. I'm the younger sibling of two brothers. My wife's younger sister, and her father, are also 3 days apart on their birthdays. So what. Coincidence and random chance do not suggest meaning or design.

If there is a force or intelligence guiding or creating such chance, why can't you show evidence of it? Why do you assume evidence does not exist for it, even though you assume it exists? There's a logical leap here that you are making that I cannot see.

[upaloopa]

84. I have no desire or need to prove anything to you

I live my life and I don't go around trying to convince other people about the power of attraction. I just brought it up as an example

[AtheistCrusader]

85. Ok, so it's a thing that is meaningful to you.i dont see any way it could be

Offensive to anyone, but if it was, you might keep it to yourself, right? Polite and all that.

The idea of intercessory prayer, special pleading, gods that might listen and act, etc, are all highly offensive ideas. Like the guy who said "thank god" for a book in his bag that stopped a bullet that would have hit him, while 4 other people died in the same shooting. It's offensive arrogance. 'my god saved me', well, what about the poor sods that didn't make it? Did they fail to, or do something that pissed god off or what? Are we all just a whim away from death because god is a psychopath? What is it?

In this case, the idea that prayer is automatically meaningful pr positive for the victims of the earthquake is itself arrogance

[Goblinmonger]

68. Woah.

How rude of you. How can you possibly not accept someone's viewpoint as valid and worth discussion. Why are you getting your "panties in a wad" because of what someone thinks?

[upaloopa]

72. I don't care didily what they think

I was concerned about the way they react to what other people think

[Goblinmonger]

73. Like you are reacting to what he thinks?

Be the change, upaloopa, be the change.

Though I'm sure your outrage and treatment of others is justified.

[upaloopa]

75. You don't get it do you?

I think it is the fight that you enjoy. The pray thing is just the catalyst

[Goblinmonger]

76. No, you don't get it.

You are chastising people for the way they treat others yet you treat others like shit. You think your justified in treating others like shit but god forbid anyone questions prayer. That makes them an unjustified asshole.

Thing is, we all treat others like shit. You just like to pretend you don't.

[upaloopa]

78. I treat a lot of people like shit. It is just that

I wait until I see people getting treated like shit then I treat the instigator like shit.

[Goblinmonger]

81. Where did you get the special gift to decide who gets to be treated that way?

And why does questioning whether and how prayer works when someone posts publicly that they are praying for someone mean that that person is an instigator and treating others like shit?

[skepticscott]

69. You're right..it's nobody's business

If parents think that prayer alone will cure their child of a serious illness, and spend all night mouthing words to their 'god' over their child's feverish body instead of taking them to a doctor. If they 'feel' that prayer works, it's nobody else's business if their child dies horribly as a result. Leave them alone!

[Goblinmonger]

61. Wow, so much going on in one short post.

1. We do have more than 5 senses. You know that right? Saying there are only 5 ignores a lot of what we know scientifically.

2. "pro GMO" crowd? That's a big fail of an analogy. If you don't want to eat GMOs, have it at. Well, good luck with that is probably the better answer because you would have to give up all corn completely and bananas and seedless watermelon and a lot of other things that have been genetically modified over the past centuries. But once you start wanting to limit what the rest of us eat, then there's a problem. So that's one level of fail. But the second level is that if those that want to pray want to pray, they can have at it. But once they come on a public discussion board and talk about how they are praying for the victims, they get to be responded to. If they don't like that, they can just not post about it. Is there something about posting about it that makes the prayer more successful?

[upaloopa]

62. People post about a lot of things. We choose to

take notice or not. Most of the time we don't get our panties in a wad about them. But prayer is different. It bugs the shit out of some folks. Yet they chose to take notice.

[AtheistCrusader]

64. Have you considered that it might be insulting?

Have you even considered the thoughts of the victims to which they are addressed? Not all of them are believers. Not all of them appreciate it.

You might say 'well they can just take it as well wishing and move on', but you don't get to define how someone else interprets your statements.

[Goblinmonger]

67. Because it is passed off as doing something great.

If I went to GD and made an OP that I was making paper airplanes to help the survivors of the earthquake and encouraged more people to make paper airplanes to try and improve their lives, what would the response be? Think I'd get somebody telling me it was a stupid thing to do? That it wasn't going to help?

Guess what? Prayer isn't going to help either. And if it did/does, don't you think there would be people that don't like people from that region that would be praying that they die? Then who wins? It doesn't help. Posting about it doesn't help? And acting like you are awesome for doing it certainly doesn't help.

And I'll be waiting for the sexism police of Religion to get on your for using the term "panties in a wad" though since they generally agree with your assessment of the meanies saying prayer won't help, I doubt they will say a word. Though if Dawkins tweeted that, heads would explode.

[pinto]

32. Perhaps it provides some small measure of comfort? For either party. Or both. I see no harm in that.

You can file it under a measure of support. Not a bad thing, imho.

[beam me up scottie]

37. Definition:

"Pray: To ask the laws of the universe to be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy."

~ Ambrose Bierce


Informing the world makes prayer twice as effective.

[edhopper]

38. They should have prayed before the earthquake

that would have helped much more.

[pinto]

39. That's pretty crass, edhopper. Would you say that to a Nepalese survivor of the earthquake?

[edhopper]

40. No

But humor is circumstantial.

I've heard jokes about the Titanic that I wouldn't say to survivers at the Whitestar pier.

I've heard jokes about Jeffry Dahmer that I wouldn't say to a victim's family.

You think it's too soon?

[trotsky]

59. How is "I'm praying for you" any better?

Seems like that's just as much of a slap in the face.

[skepticscott]

86. If someone said they were going to help by mixing up a magic potion

with toad skin and eye of newt, even the religionistas here would probably snigger at them, or at the very least not argue that they should be taken seriously. But prayer gets special deference, for reasons which the yacht clubbers can't seem to justify.

[truebrit71]

70. I'm sure some of them did. But it was to the wrong god apparently...

....https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/status/591971536870871041

[Kablooie]

54. Prayer lets people think they have shuffled responsibility onto someone else (God)

And so they can relax now that it's in someone else's hands.

It's just a little lie to fool yourself into thinking you've done something while actually doing nothing at all.

[longship]

56. The inevitable God cop out.

God works in mysterious ways.

George Carlin said it right.

Joe bless you all!