Heckler interrupts first Muslim prayer service at Washington cathedral

[Eugene]

Source: Associated Press

Heckler interrupts first Muslim prayer service at Washington cathedral

Associated Press in Washington
theguardian.com, Friday 14 November 2014 21.20 GMT

A woman shouting “leave our churches alone” disrupted the first Muslim prayer service hosted by Washington National Cathedral.

Planners had said they hoped Friday’s service at the historic cathedral would foster more understanding and acceptance between Christians and Muslims around the world.

The prominent Episcopal cathedral often hosts national events, such as presidential funerals, and has hosted Muslims at various interfaith services in the past. But planners say this is the first time the cathedral has invited Muslims to lead their own prayers there, which they call a “powerful symbolic gesture”.

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Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/14/heckler-interrupts-first-muslim-prayer-service-washington-cathedral

[rug]

1. The photo at your link is striking.

[MellowDem]

2. Men in the front, women in the back....

the bigotry of religion is ever present in the subtle details.

[rug]

3. They're performing Salat. Do you know what that is?

[AtheistCrusader]

4. Highly unlikely MellowDem doesn't know what that is. But for the sake of argument... So what?

What the hell does your comment have to do with MD's point about the picture containing an artifact of the wholesale devaluation of women by a particular faith?

Not pictured at all: women who are actively menstruating. Why? Some made up bullshit about them being 'impure'. And it is quite specific on this vile, dehumanizing point. Men, or women bleeding from some type of cut or wound that is ISN'T menstruation are not prohibited from Salat/prayer/touching the Qur'an.

Men are also not to touch women during their period, according to the same bylaws. Nevermind that intercourse during a woman's period can, for some women, relieve cramping, and of course, release a flood of endorphins.

It's an insidious vile stigma attached to women by many faiths, and you see artifacts of it, in that photo.

As MellowDem quite rightly pointed out.


Now, on the gripping hand, I do approve of the photo in one aspect; this church receives tax funding, therefore it MUST be open to people of any or no faith. So the caretakers of the church are doing the right thing, apparently without threat of lawsuit, so that's nice on that aspect of it.

[rug]

10. Because it is profound act of worship including gestures of submission to Allah, Islam.

I'm surprised the two of you didn't go off on that.

It is neither a litmus test for misogyny nor a platform for a talking point about the inherent misogyny of Abrahamic religions.

As to its historical roots, read this:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CC8QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Finclusivemosqueinitiative.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F05%2Freda-womeninmosques.pdf&ei=V6dnVIjFIYmFyQTu4oD4DA&usg=AFQjCNHV9TPy19MEP0WD6A4yZn6vaHyeoA&bvm=bv.79142246,d.aWw

No, I think it's highly likely he doesn't.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. highly convenient analysis youve done there.

Tell me, are you sticking your fingers in your ears or covering your eyes to skip past the point that was just raise?

[rug]

35. "an artifact of the wholesale devaluation of women by a particular faith"

Is that a point?

Is that what you think is going on?

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Yes. Institutionalized misogyny.

I'm not interested in a chicken/egg debate which came first, the devaluation of women, or the institutionalization of it into that (then) new faith. It has preserved it right into this century, and there's evidence of it in that photo. MD was quite right to comment on it.

While you're busy mooning over the progress in allowing them to use that church, you whistled right past it. (never mind the church has no legal standing to refuse.)

Granted that faith isn't alone in doing so. I wonder if that's where some people's blinders come from.

[rug]

39. Oh, get off your high horse.

Your outrage would be more convincing if it was said 50 years ago. Or even 15.

I'm far more interested in getting to the root of it than handing out current talking points.

Now, I'm not busy mooning over anything. While you and MD are busy whistling over what exactly it is you're attacking, you may take some time to read what it is.

Oh wait, it's too long. Understandable. Carry on then.

[edhopper]

49. So mysogeny in the Muslim world

Isn't an issue any more. It's not institutionalized, just the result of "other factors"?

[rug]

50. It's one of many issues.

It's certainly not the focal point of the picture or the article.

Maybe the three of you can find a mosque to picket or, as in this story, shout "Misogyny!" at them while they pray in a cathedral.

[edhopper]

59. I agree it is not the focal point of the article

And have no problem with what the Cathedral did.
I may not approve of Islam's tenets, but I also abhor the dark bigotry against Muslims in this country.

[AtheistCrusader]

51. Pathetic deflection.

I wasn't around 50 years ago, but I did note the problem 15 years ago, you bet.

You post shit in the Religion forum when a SINGLE atheist says anything at all that can be construed as sexist, so color me unimpressed when you pretend this is unimportant in this context.

You're cheering on 'inclusiveness' in a church that has not a legal leg to stand on, to refuse them, while pretending not to see institutionalized bigotry right in front of your face.

For shame.

[rug]

53. As opposed to . . .?

Do a scan of how the rhetoric has changed, and from, whom over the last 50 years.

The word "unimportant" is yours. The word I use for the shit you and MD have been posting on this is "uninformed".

Make up your mind, am I "mooning" or "cheering"?

You know where you can put your "shame".

[AtheistCrusader]

54. Uninformed? Did you not look at the picture? Do you not know anything about the subject you seem

so excited about all the sudden?

Why am I asking rhetorical questions? Hell, even I don't know.

[rug]

56. Yes, uninformed.

All you see is an example of misogyny as defined relatively recently.

I do see that but what I find striking is the continuity of a religious practice that's been taking place for 1400 years.

It's rare to see a public act of humility like that. Maybe that's striking because I read too many posts in here.

Now excuse me while I run around the yard in excitement.

[AtheistCrusader]

57. "All you see is an example of misogyny as defined relatively recently. "

So terribly sorry I wasn't upset about it before I was born.

"continuity of a religious practice that's been taking place for 1400 years."
I'm surrounded by very old religious practices. So fucking what?

"It's rare to see a public act of humility like that."
Want to impress me? Put the women in front for a change. Or intermingle. Whatever.

'recent' definition totally excuses it. One wonders what else you'd whistle past with no comment, in awe of some unimportant detail.

[rug]

58. It is shocking when one realizes the world existed before we did.

Sit down when you realize that we hold so dear today will be laughed at and railed at centuries from now.

[AtheistCrusader]

61. 'We'? No, not 'we', I think.

[rug]

67. You're right. "You" might be more precise.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. The problem pointed out about that event is now, today. real-time.

Your deflection attempt is embarrassing to watch. Anything you feel isn't relevant, isn't. Clever.

[rug]

77. Well, if you srtart with post 1, you'll see the deflection was started at post 2.

Not by me.

[MellowDem]

19. The men and women are separate. Do you know why that is?

Misogynistic beliefs inherent to Islam and explicitly laid out in its texts.

Just redirecting your deflection to the original point.

[rug]

20. Yes I do. Read the link in the post above your head.

[MellowDem]

21. It's a long article...

Can you quote the part that shows its not misogyny but just a big misunderstanding?

[rug]

22. Geez, it's not that long.

In a nutshell, it stems from the social mores extant in the Arabian peninsula of the seventh centutry, A.D. (first century, A.H.) and has been followed, er, religiously, ever since.

[MellowDem]

23. Exactly, so misogyny...

A misogynistic culture made a misogynistic religion. Not surprising.

[rug]

24. No, history.

Let me know what you think after you read the article.

[MellowDem]

25. I have no idea how being history...

Makes it not misogyny

[rug]

27. At the risk of sounding mean, read the fucking article!

[MellowDem]

28. I skimmed it, still don't know what you're getting at...

At the risk of sounding blunt, make a fucking point.

[rug]

29. I did. You may have skimmed over it.

[MellowDem]

48. No.

[ZombieHorde]

60. Is your point

about people of two faiths coming together to worship in peace? I have read through this subthread twice, and I am not sure what exactly you are trying to say.

This is the entire article you are talking about, right?

A woman shouting “leave our churches alone” disrupted the first Muslim prayer service hosted by Washington National Cathedral.

Planners had said they hoped Friday’s service at the historic cathedral would foster more understanding and acceptance between Christians and Muslims around the world.

The prominent Episcopal cathedral often hosts national events, such as presidential funerals, and has hosted Muslims at various interfaith services in the past. But planners say this is the first time the cathedral has invited Muslims to lead their own prayers there, which they call a “powerful symbolic gesture”.

But just after starting announcements were made, an unidentified woman in the cathedral began shouting: “Why can’t you worship in your mosque … ” NBC4 reports the woman was escorted out of the cathedral.


As the service continued, Rizwan Jacka of Islamic Society of North America called the cathedral a house of prayer for all people.

Seems to me your point about the significance of the event is different than the point the people you are debating with are trying to make. Peace between faiths versus conflict between sexes, to over simplify the arguments for brevity.

[rug]

68. There's actually three points here.

1) There was an interfaith service of public Moslem prayer service in a cathedral.

2) It was interrupted by a bigot.

3) Islam is misogynist.

The article's point is about one and two.

My point is about one.

Their point, apparently, is solely about three.

[ZombieHorde]

69. None of those points contradict each other.

I guess everyone can have their favorite point and just be happy very people there were likely to be Republicans.

[rug]

73. Accommodationist!

[ZombieHorde]

74. Ha!

I do get a sick thrill out of offending everyone.

[840high]

31. Yes.

[mr blur]

5. Ah, that good old Christian tolerance. (nt)

[hrmjustin]

6. Yes it is. We are very tolerant in the Episcopal Church.

It was just one heckler.

[Act_of_Reparation]

65. The woman wasn't identified in the article.

I don't think we can assume she is Episcopalian.

She is, however, almost certainly a Christian.

[cbayer]

7. So wonderful that the Cathedral opened it's doors for this, but so sad

that some bigot disrupted it.

The world would be much better if people would just leave others alone when their religious beliefs do no harm.

[MellowDem]

18. A bigot interrupting a bigoted service...

of a bigoted God. Makes sense.

[rug]

30. With many bigoted commemts.

[edhopper]

8. A Christian Facebook friend is outraged

That the woman was prevented f4om declaring "Christ is the Lord" in a Christian church.

[cbayer]

9. Really? Does she not see why this was bad?

Of course the woman can say and she can say it almost all of the time.

She just can't say it during this service.

[edhopper]

11. I think she doesn't approve of

The Muslims being there in the first place.
The fb post linked to jihadwatch.

[cbayer]

12. OMG, I just looked up jihadwatch.

What a hateful, horrible place.

[edhopper]

13. I am sorry

I should have warned you.

[cbayer]

14. That's ok, I need to be reminded of things like this.

I sometimes get lulled into thinking these kinds of people don't really exist.

[edhopper]

15. Yeah

The heated discussion s here are throwing marshmallows compared to these groups.

[cbayer]

16. That was my thought exactly.

When I think some people here are bad, I need to go to sites like that so I can put everything back into perspective, lol.

[edhopper]

17. Vehement disagreements

Vs dark hatred.

[shenmue]

52. I used to read Robert Spencer. Then I got back my right mind.

Good Lord.

[Dorian Gray]

62. Ugh

I have a FB "friend" who posted from jihadwatch almost once a week. I've actually finally capitulated and hid the guy because he truly is hateful. He speaks about Muslims as though they are subhuman insects that deserve extermination. For awhile I was bemused that someone I know as an acquaintance in a social capacity could hold and put forth thoughts like that, but they became more and more hateful and sick. I didn't want to see it anymore.

[AtheistCrusader]

79. Funny you mention that. The women participating aren't allowed to say anything either.

Not during the actual prayer anyway.

[Turbineguy]

26. Probably just recruiting for IS.

[hrmjustin]

33. She was not a parishoner.

The parishoners welcomed the Muslims in.

[Cartoonist]

37. Muslims seem to be the one that kills and destroys

I'm not saying they don't, but don't you know history? Don't you read or watch the news? Our country was founded by Christians who killed and destroyed the people who were living here. George Bush dropped so much ordnance on Iraq that thousands of innocent women and children died. George Bush is one of those very same Christians.

[cbayer]

40. Haha!! Epic battle over who is worse, muslims or christians.

This should be rich. Whose prejudices are the strongest?

[Cartoonist]

42. Christians had a head start. nt

[cbayer]

43. I guess that means you win!

Congratulations.

[Cartoonist]

44. WTF?

I have no respect for either faith. They both lose.

Why do you always misinterpret what is said?

[cbayer]

45. Never mind. His post was removed, so I guess he wins.

[goldent]

46. But it was only by a 4-3 vote

There is still the possibility of a 6-1 or even a 7-0 hide. I know there are people who are capable - I've seen their work!

[cbayer]

47. No doubt. It's a close battle between prejudice towards muslims and towards christians.

[trotsky]

63. Only you, in a thread about Christian intolerance of Muslims...

could somehow try to make it about prejudice against the religious by the irreligious.

[eomer]

36. Here is her own description and explanation. I wonder if we can all agree she is *delusional*?

Last edited Sun Nov 16, 2014, 11:22 AM - Edit history (1)

https://www.facebook.com/BreitbartOneSilencedMillionsAwakened?ref=stream

Edit to add an excerpt:

After much prayer and encouragement – and yes, some nervous doubts, I make the decision to leave early Thursday morning. This is when the first miracle happened...

As I am driving on a stretch of the highway, I come upon a car pulled off alongside of the shoulder. As I pass, a woman steps out of her vehicle. She points in my direction, gives a two thumbs up and claps her hands. I am puzzled. Why would a woman do that? Then it hits me! Was that my affirmation of my decision. It pushes me onward towards my mission. I wonder if that woman will ever know what she did for me that day! I hope she reads this article.

-snip

I had my few prayer warriors working on their end. One of them mentioned that she would pray that I become invisible to the security guards. Now God placed on my mind a few things. I know these came from Him because I don't think I would have thought of them. I took my ID with me, but it concerned me because it was a Michigan driver's license. It may raise a red flag to an observant security guard. I chose to wear my best Sunday clothes, with my best coat. I had to look like I was attending an important church service. I included a scarf just in case I needed to cover my head. You never know if Muslim protocol was required upon admission.

-snip

I walked with her into the main foyer up to the security line. We walked right past the guards and into the sanctuary! I was INVISIBLE!
The walk through the sanctuary was incredible. The cathedral is beautiful. It reminded me of the great cathedrals in Europe when I visited there. We walked maybe for 5 minutes, up to the front of the cathedral, where she showed me where to sit. I found an open seat right in the front row – another God-Thing.

[cbayer]

41. She is most definitely psychotic.

I hope she gets the help she needs.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. So it is ok for you to declare a person you don't know "psychotic"

based on some reported statements by this person, but it is an unforgivable insult to all religious people to point out that that believing in the reality of the statements in their holy books that are obvious nonsense statements is delusional?

Hmmmm....

[trotsky]

66. IOKIYAB.

Naturally!

[mr blur]

70. And God said, "Sorry I couldn't help with the Ebola and poverty and stuff...

...but I was busy making this woman invisible and getting her a seat at the front. Priorities, you know?"

[cbayer]

71. OMG! Are you communicating with god now?

[trotsky]

72. OMG! Can you prove he isn't? n/t

[underpants]

55. Ignorant hateful trash

[Prophet 451]

76. Because of course she did

Doubtless, if eh faiths involved had been reversed, she'd be crying about persecution of Christians.

[cbayer]

78. She was seriously disturbed at the time.

To the point that I'm not sure one could predict what she would or wouldn't do otherwise.