Religion’s shocking woman problem: What’s behind the misogyny of Organised religion?

[mr blur]

As a movement, Christianity seems like it would be so compatible with feminism — and yet that hasn't been the case .

What do the Roman Catholic Church and Islam have in common? Not much beyond a few myths, you might think. But that would be to ignore the fact that they both regard women as second-class citizens, inferior to men.

It's seems impossible to ignore this fact yet millions of women do.

Why is that, do you think?

Why would people deflect the discussion away from this truth and instead aim it at some remarks of a couple of 'famous' atheists as if the things they might have said were going to lead to women giving up their rights, having their babies sold to rich non-believers, having their children assaulted and raped...?

Why is it socially acceptable to be an apologist for Catholicism or Islam yet one remark in defence of an atheist speaker will result in you being labelled "Sexist!", "Misogynist!" or worse.

Matthew 7:3 would seem to cover this.

[bravenak]

1. I hated the part where the bible tells you you can sell your daughters.

If somebody 'bought' me, they better keep the receipt! I'm defective, I kick people who buy women in the nads.

I forgot what the set price was.

Also, the whole 'kill the men, take the virgins for yourselves' crap, is very sexist. And rapey. Lots of rapey shit in that book.

And That guy. Being willing to give his daughter and concubine up for rape? No words. I can't even remember if they took her and raped her to death or if that was another story. You know , where he cuts her body into 12 pieces and sends it to whomever in the 12 tribes. Today , we would call him a murderer and a slaver.

You can totally tell that men wrote the bible.

[cbayer]

2. Not even clever.

The misogyny found in organized religion is well known and I've not seen it denied.

That other article must have really scratched your extremely thin skin.

Do you think the reports of sexual harassment and misogyny are false? Does the fact that other organizations struggle with the same issue mean it's ok for some members of these atheist organizations to wallow in the same sty?

one remark in defence of an atheist speaker will result in you being labelled "Sexist!", "Misogynist!" or worse.

Hyperbole much?

[Warren Stupidity]

3. denied? probably not. Excused or diminished? Frequently.

For example, here a well known poster in the religion forum suggests that it would be a good idea for overt religious misogyny to be "accommodated":

This really needs to be dealt with by the airline.
It seems that they could make accommodations easily at the time of seat assignment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218155022#post3

[pinto]

4. How should El Al address the situation? I think that's the point. What's your take?

[Warren Stupidity]

7. By telling the misogynist idiots to either sit down or get off the plane.

Lets rework the example to use race. Still think "accommodations" should be made?

[pinto]

15. Thanks. That's somewhat clearer.

[phil89]

26. Except atheism has no books

instructing atheists to oppress or diminish women. Atheism has no tenets or dogma. It's a position on a single issue.

[cbayer]

28. Atheism has tons of books that say lots of things.

And it has some vocal adherents who are really dogmatic and take the position that believers are delusional and that religion is a disease that should be eradicated.

Both the extreme that you describe within religion and the one I describe within atheism are intolerant and bigoted.

And whether atheism has any instructions to oppress or diminish women, women are reporting that it is happening within organized groups. Do you think they are lying?

[trotsky]

30. But yet not one of them is nearly as important to all atheists as the bible is to all Christians.

Or the Koran to all Muslims.

You know this. Your only reason to promote them as even remotely equivalent is to push your agenda of making atheism another "religion."

[okasha]

5. LOL--an echo, not a voice.

Can't you guys think up topics on your own?

[Rainforestgoddess]

6. Because it's *wrong* somehow, and that's all the reason necessary apparently.

Witness Ben affleck and his politically correct meltdown on bill mahers show.

He wouldn't even listen to what Sam Harris had to say about Islam as a religion (note, not Muslims as individuals)

It shouldn't be verboten to criticise ideas or dogma. This is not the same as bigotry or misogyny or homophobia.

Tarring "the atheist movement" because of a couple of individuals seems to be the flavour du jour around here. But there is no atheist book that says women should be accosted in elevators. There is no atheist book that says only dudes are allowed to wear the special cape and fancy hats.

You pick any non religious group of people with similar interests and there are bound to be assholes in the crowd. There's going to be a homophobic stamp collecter. A misogynist chess player, a bigoted sca member. Etc.

The thing is that the people in these groups don't look to the public faces of the group for moral guidance.

So hell yes, criticise assholes if you feel the need, but it shouldn't tar everyone else.

As far as religion, because it *does * hold itself up as a moral and spiritual authority, those entrenched ideas tar the entire group, as much as racism tars the kkk.

considering the entrenched horrible moral guidance of the Bible and the Koran, the hypocrisy of continually bringing up misogyny in the "atheist movement" is galling, to say the least.


(I put "atheist movement" in quotes because personally, if I want a movement, I eat a bran muffin. )

[cbayer]

9. I don't see any evidence that the atheist movement is being tarred because

of a couple of individuals. The article this one poorly mocks was written by a prominent and vocal female atheist. It is her goal to put a spotlight on the behavior exhibited by some individuals that she thinks harms organized and activist atheism.

There is no persecution going on here, but there is some overly defensive reactions which makes one think of the phrase "I think the lady does protesth too much".

YOu are correct. There are bound to be assholes in any organization and, in particular, sexist assholes within male dominated organizations.

And when it exists, it should be noted and challenged. Organized atheism is not so very fragile that it can't withstand this kind of challenge. In fact, imo, it will greatly benefit from it.

If you want to set the bar at the level you perceive it to be through the bible or the koran, then you will get the same thing. Personally, I would like to see the bar set higher.

Final line - it is people within the atheist movement that are bringing this up. Do you really find that galling?

[Rainforestgoddess]

19. I don't know what I'm protesting too much. Are you accusing me of misogyny or sexual predation?

I've never been to an atheist convention. I've never met any of the accused or the accusers. I'm not defending any of them. For all I know, Dawkins is a complete wanker on a personal level but I won't participate in trying anyone in the court of public opinion. (OK, I'll participate in trying Stephen Harper in the court of public opinion, but I don't think anyone here would blame me for that)

But there are an awful lot of op's being posted about this subject recently. Here. In this forum. I don't pop over here too often, but the last few times I have, the threads that have been burning have often been on the same subject. If you poke the same area repeatedly, it becomes bruised and eventually the poked one will ask you to stop.

[cbayer]

24. No, I am not accusing you or misogyny or sexual predation.

I have no idea how you got that idea, but I apologize if that is how it came across.

There are a lot of articles about this being posted because it is a huge issue in the internet atheist community.

I hope that the continual poking of the sexists within the community will bruise them and that they will stop.

[mr blur]

21. Actually, you're wrong (again). This one wasn't "poorly" mocking the one "written by -

a prominent and vocal female atheist". It was mocking - poorly or not - your attempt to point out, yet again, how appalling you think some atheists can be. Do you actually know any atheists? I don't mean people who would love to believe but can't quite manage it and so spend their lives claiming to be unbelievers but defending what they can't have so that they'll be accepted by the faithful; I mean real atheists. Who just don't believe in god(s). Who neither want nor need anything from you, not even your approval or protection.

There's something rather sad about your posts. I suspect that, if you're honest, you know that already.

[cbayer]

23. Oh, please. It is clearly a poor repetition of the previous article

and a very weak tool to make a very weak point.

Do I know any atheists? Are you serious?

Please, you are making me cry!

[mr blur]

25. Well, do you? I mean atheists, not faitheists. They don't count. Anyway,

back to Ignore with you. It was fun for an afternoon but, frankly, you bore me more than you amuse me.

[cbayer]

27. I know more atheists than I know believers.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fatheist". Chris Stedman uses the word in a way I like, but I have seen different definitions which are negative. Where did you get the right to decide who counts as an atheist and who doesn't. I have met a few anti-theists like you, but fortunately not many.

Again, you have caused me great sadness because I live to entertain and be loved by you.

[Leontius]

8. Just in case you're trapped in a monastery somewhere here's a clue the RCC is not "Christianity"

in total.

[mr blur]

10. I never said it was. But you knew that. Still...

[Leontius]

12. Bait and switch is a tactic of choice for you on this is it.

Or is a Catholic fixation the deal with English atheists. I seem to recall another who seems to have the same type of problem.

[mr blur]

20. Oh, do grow up.

[edhopper]

18. What percentage of denominations would you say

Aren't mysoginistic?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

[malthaussen]

11. Gospel of Mary Magdalene.

9:6 "Levi (Matthew) answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot-tempered.
9 Now I see you contending against the women like the Adversaries."

Ever wonder why that Gospel didn't make the cut? Is that the ring of Truth I hear?

-- Mal

[Lordquinton]

13. Seems that people son't see the problem as shocking

just accepted as standard and HEY DAWKINS!!!1!!11

[cbayer]

14. This is possibly the silliest post I have ever seen from you.

Do you have an olive branch I could slap you with?

[Lordquinton]

17. No, it's pretty spot on to what you have said

"Everyone knows religion has problems with misogyny" then ten thread a week are posted about how there is so much misogyny in atheism, but when read they focus on the same one or two people, but when the subject is turned back onto religion it's deflection city, all manner of ifs, ands, and byfors are brought up, then it's another thread about how awful Dawkins is when taken out of context.

[cbayer]

22. Again you make baseless accusations.

Show me the 10 threads posted in the past week about how there is so much misogyny in atheism and all the threads where there is "deflection" about the misogyny in religious groups.

You blinders are making you, well, blind.

[rug]

16. Well, let me to a stab at this.

I am not condoning anyone's bad behavior nor am I responsible for what idiotic diatribe comes out of the mouth of a cleric. or whether some jackass pissed on the Alamo AND happens to be a cleric. Do I hold him accountable. Absolutely! But not because he is a cleric but because he is breaking civility and the law.

I'd say that's perfectly put. Wouldn't you?

[Marrah_G]

29. Property- greed

A woman needed to be a virgin and then faithful so the man could ensure his heir was his heir (or before that, that he wasn't spending resources on someone else's offspring. Every form of misogony really goes back to this, IMHO.