about to buy a "farm"

[mopinko]

actually, about to buy a vacant lot one house down from mine. i live in chicago. by city standards, i have a big lot- 35' x 175'. so, now i have 2.
we bought it out of a bankruptcy of a developer. the plan is to fill the perimeter with fruit trees, grapes, etc, and have a garden toward the center. that way if we ever have to sell the lot, it will be possible to build a house without destroying the whole permaculture.
i hope to grow food for my 7 person family, plus have plenty left for charity and for wildlife.
planning to have chickens and bees.
that is as far as the plan goes for now.
i suppose by most standards here i just have a garden, but i hope you don't mind if i hang around and ask stupid questions anyway.
i'll post a few of the questions that i have a little later.

[LWolf]

1. I have 6 acres, but I don't have a garden any more.

When I moved here, 6 acres of rocks and weeds have been so hard to manage, especially since I work 60 hours a week or so, that the most I've done is plant fruit trees. Which rarely bear fruit, because I live in an area that is marginal for fruit trees. So, some years I'll get fruit, others I won't.

I grew more food on a tiny postage-stamp sized lot when I lived in town; there was less to maintain. What questions do you have?

[tech3149]

2. Your initial plan sounds good

Ringing the property with trees especially will help keep the soil isolated from urban pollution. I'd put the grapes inside the tree line. It will take a few years before they can be productive.
It will also take a few years of TLC and composting to turn urban dirt into healthy soil.
You have your work cut out for you but the rewards will be priceless.

[mopinko]

3. the soil will definitely be the hardest part, but

one small good thing about that is that the house that was on the property was demolished, leaving quite a hole to fill. so, lots of room for large scale amendment. it will require some heavy equipment to mix it all, i am sure.
but the soil in this particular neighborhood sucks badly. it is the ancient bowl of lake michigan and is more like black sand than soil. even then it is less than 1' deep, then it is plain sand. very alkaline.
i am figuring on a bomber load or 2 of compost. would like something that will take longer to decompose, also, wood chips, or??

i have lovingly amended the couple sunny spots in my yard, and now have very nice soil there. i may plant some roses.

so, my most pressing question for right now is fencing. i plan to have some chickens, and wonder what is needed to keep them on the property. it will have to be little dog proof, anyway, as my dogs will be hanging there with me. but will chickens fly over a 3-4' fence? do people pinion them? or do they just have to stay "cooped up"?

also looking for some heirloom fruit trees. i have an italian plum and a montmorency cherry right now. the plum has given me about 3 plums in 25 years, but the cherry bears pretty well. i do love the italian plums, and will likely plant a couple of those. love the pie cherry, but will plant a couple sweet ones now that i have room for pollinators. (will have bees, also.)
looking for a couple of interesting and appropriate apples.
also have a couple grapes now, which the robins beat me to every year. will have to cover them with nets if i want to see any for myself, i guess. the garden is as much for the birds as for us- berries everywhere, thickets, a water drip. will get a little more serious now that it will add up more.

so, any advice is very much appreciated. i have been a gardener all my life, but this aims to be bigger than that.

[formercia]

4. A Chicken Tractor

http://home.centurytel.net/thecitychicken/tractors.html

Great for clearing a garden spot. The Chickens will till it and eat any weeds. Just move it now and then.

I used sawdust from a Sawmill. It was fairly coarse and took a couple of years to break down, even with added Nitrogen.

[mopinko]

5. thank you.

there are some cool and smart ideas there.
i had some chuckles about the chicken poop. i have a couple pet birds, and my lorikeet's poop could glue the heat shield tiles on the shuttle.
would wood ash neutralize chicken poop? what is best to catch it?

i had been thinking about one of those 10 x 10 cyclone fence dog runs that you see. bungee a tarp or wire some chicken wire over the top.
i do have to make it coyote proof.

[wildeyed]

6. I keep my chickens in a converted dog run, but I live in NC.

Chicago is much colder, so you are probably going to need some insulation for your girls. backyardchickens.com has tons of how-to's and a great forum.

[FedUpWithIt All]

7. There is the option of having rotating gardens.

One year one space is a chicken run (chickens will pretty much clear out a smaller area in a couple of months) and the other area is a garden. While you let the chickens have the run of an area, they are eating out the insect larvae and eggs, spreading manure and scratching and shredding any scraps you throw in speeding up the process of composting. Chickens can make short work of a compost pile. At the end of the year when you begin to clear out your garden, you move the chickens over to that space and they begin to clear up the garden scrap and turn it into manure and preventing it from rotting and causing fungus and disease, they eat the adult insects which began to take hold on those plants and prevent them from growing in number and they scratch the now somewhat compacted soil and turn it a bit.

In the area the chickens have recently abandoned, you plant winter crops and start a winter green manure. allow the chickens to visit this area for a few days in the spring, before you till, and after spending a lot of time indoors over the winter they will happily and rapidly begin to eat some of the green manure, scratch it and and hunt insect. Then you return the chickens to their year two pen (the old garden) till new garden section and the remaining green manure under and begin the years planting.

Chickens can be kept, for the most part, inside a four foot high fence if you keep ONE of their wings trimmed. They cannot get any real height with one wing clipped because they cannot keep their balance.

A really cool idea for a fence is osage orange (edible and a natural insect repellant)or Siberian pea shrub (also edible and has been used in the past to feed chickens) as a living fence.

You have a good plan, please keep us informed of your progress

[mopinko]

8. that's pretty much how i saw it working.

gonna need a lot of help making soil out of this sand.
i have been doing quite a bit of vermiculture. have quite the stable of little wigglers. but they don't really keep up with 5 adults so the chickens will have plenty of scraps, too.
i am thinking hot chicken manure will do a great job of properly composting weeds. the worms will finish them off.

even tho i will be getting a bunch of compost trucked in to start with, the soil will need constant care. i am only a few blocks from lake michigan. much storm water passes through this sandy soil.

do you think i can feed my chickens the same thing i feed my budgies? i think it was derived from chicken feed formulas. it's a small crumbled kibble. i think it should be fine. i will check with the manufacturer- roudybush.

[Vincardog]

14. Build mobile rabbit warrens. Raise the rabbits and let them "amend"

the hell out of the space under their nests. Move the pens every year and
watch your garden bloom.

[mopinko]

15. there is a fine line about raising animals "for slaughter"

still the city, after all. chickens are fine, since you get eggs. even tho i plan to eat them at some point, still not the same.

i am going to sit down with a guy from the alderman's office about what i can do exactly. prolly pushing it to have 2 dozen chickens. i hear i can have a goat, although seems to me they would have to allow 2 goats, or no milk.

bunnies don't quite ring my bell like chickens, tho.

[Vincardog]

16. Bunnies do a hell of a job on making the fertilizer. As do sheep and goats.

You do not have to eat them.

[Agony]

18. Cover crops/Green manure

No reason not to grow your organic matter/compost right in place to improve your sandy soil. Some cover crops and even "weeds" are good at extracting otherwise unavailable nutrients from soil and making it available to the next generation. Pigweed is an example of a weed that is efficient at making soil phosphorous available. Sometimes you can work with the weeds that you already have, just chop them in before they set seed.

Buckwheat... did I hear you say you want bees? Nothing like BuckWheat Honey! Buckwheat is a fast growing, high biomass crop that is an important green manure. Just go buy some whole buckwheat from the groovy food store if you can't find another seed source.

Clovers would be another one that would be good bee food and also is a nitrogen fixer (free nitrogen from the air)
Hairy vetch is another legume (nitrogen fixer) that is vigorous and will smother undesirable weeds. It will also reseed itself in the right climate.

Remember that with green manure often you want to chop down and incorporate into the soil before it goes to seed so that it will not compete with a subsequent crop.

Chickens will "fly" amazing distances! Don't have chickens right now but they used to fly up in a tree when the coop door got shut by accident and it was time to go to bed! You can clip the primary feathers in their wings but it is a pain in the neck and you have to keep on it. They rarely got over a 5 foot fence but are very opportunistic about finding things to hop up on so the fence is shorter! I have also seen them dig _under_ a loose fence. You might have to put them in a coop or make a rolling coop that you can move around the lot so they always have fresh ground to scratch on.

If you are interested in any of that or more I can help you find seed sources but you can probably get just about anything locally...

Cover crops are great to experiment with and find what works for your location and soil conditions.

Cheers!
Agony

[hedgehog]

20. We keep our chickens in an unheated coop -

they do fine in our winters although we don't get as many sub-zero days as Chicago. (Oswego County, NY)I think you will need to protect them from the wind more than anything. We do have the water can on a heating element.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. I assume you know what the term "bought the farm" means in the aviation world...

[mopinko]

10. i do, but i didn't realize it was an aviation expression.

there have been many chuckles around the house here about it.
definitely wrote that subject line tongue in cheek.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. Started with barnstormers...

If they ended up landing in a farmers field and damaged his crops they would pay for them (bought a some of/a piece of the farm). When they died, the expression was "They bought the farm".

Long Live the Great Waldo Pepper!!!

[Gato Moteado]

12. With a big hole to fill in the ground.....

....have you thought about hugelkultur?

[mopinko]

13. that is a really interesting idea.

especially since it is so f'ing sandy here. my only worry would be that termites are slowly working their way down my block, and i would not want to feed them TOOOO well.
i did intend to use quite a bit of wood chips in my mix, and always have laid a base of big wood chunks when starting a compost pile.
interesting idea, tho. thanks for giving me something good to think about.

[Gato Moteado]

17. i built a hugelkultur bed on one of my properties....

....i'll put some pepper and tomato plants on it this weekend now that the torrential rains have stopped. i've heard so much good about hugelkultur, i really want to give it a try.

[mopinko]

21. well, i have a start on my bed.

i have collected a couple dozen xmas trees for the bottom layer. this is the perfect amendment for the soil here and i always scavenge a couple for mulch. i may snag a few more.
working on a source for rotted wood, but haven't had a chance to scavenge that yet. takes a little time.

[hedgehog]

19. You may want to check with the county health department to see

if you can get the soil tested for lead content. If you do have high lead, till it and plant sunflowers. They pick up the lead in their stalks. You have to bag the stalks and get them to the dump at the end of the season.

Caveat: my daughter had good results with this, others not so much:

http://thefoodproject.org/soil-testing-and-remediation

It may depend on your soil type.

[mopinko]

22. did intend to get some soil samples done.

son goes to uic, which has a great extension service. also joined the botanic gardens.

i love sunflowers, it would be fine with me. whatever it takes.

[mopinko]

23. pic

working on bids for the "barn", and ordering my first load of soil tomorrow for the containers. hoping to get some potatoes going soon.

[bvar22]

24. Congratulations!!!

We also grow Veggies, Fruit Trees, Berries, & Grapes,
keep Chickens,
and Honey Bees!
Obviously, we think a lot alike.

Here is some info based on our own experience we keep handy for anyone thinking about Bees!

The bees were Starkraven's project from the start.
They seemed like a natural addition to our new life in Arkansas.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=246x5729

We arrived at our new home in Oct 2006.
Neither Starkraven nor myself had had any hands-on experience with bees.
During that first Winter, Starkraven researched bees (mostly online), and purchased a "Starter Kit" and two hive bodies online. She assembled the hives during the Winter, and in the Spring, the bees arrived via US Mail.
The postmaster of the small rural Post Office called us at 7AM,
and strongly encouraged us to get those Bees out of his Post Office ASAP.
My Wife introduce the Bees to their new home.
While she did everything according to the Book and wore a full Bee Suit,
it WAS very stressful. I took photos from a distance with a telephoto lens and shouted encouragement.
She must have done everything right, because the Bees decided to stay,
and we still keep bees from that original line.

As time and Seasons passed, we both became more and more fascinated with these insects, and took a course offered by the State, and later joined our local BeeKeepers Association.

While the bees are hearty and very good at taking care of themselves, they sometimes need some help.
We were lucky, and blundered through the first year on online research and love, but taking a course and joining the BeeKeepers Association has been invaluable, and we highly recommend it to anyone considering bees.

Our bees are very gentle (Italian/All Stars). We always wear protective hoods and gloves and use a smoker, but rarely put on the full suit. We do get stung on rare occasions (through the gloves or jeans), but it is no big deal anymore. I am considering trying BeeSting therapy for some arthritis in my hands .

We have gotten very comfortable with the bees, and inspect the hives every couple of weeks during the Spring/Summer. It takes about 10 minutes per hive. During the Winter, we rarely open the hives. ...only enough to make sure they have food (sugar water).

Our colonies are about 20 yards from the backdoor, visible from the house. There are plenty of bees around our house and gardens, but they have never caused a problem with us or our pets. Neither of us has been stung outside of messing with the hives.

There are many websites that offer full starter kits online.
I believe we ordered our original kits from Dadant,
but are setting up the jigs to build our own equipment,
which is relatively easy with basic carpentry skills and tools.

We strongly recommend the following suggestions:
1) Check in with you County Extension.
They are very helpful. There are some regulations concerning transportation, registration, and inspection, and there may be some local ordinances. They are a great resource for latest research and new methods, pest & disease control. They can facilitate state hive inspections.
We generally avoid government agencies where ever possible, and have never voluntarily registered anything, but we make an exception for our bees. The benefits FAR outweigh any downside.

2)Join you local Beekeepers Association.
These are some of the most laid back people you will ever meet. Starkraven and myself are not joiners, but we look forward to our monthly meetings with the "bee people". This is another valuable resource for local information concerning pests, honey flows, equipment and disreputable operators. You can also pick up some hands-on experience working around hives.
Make no mistake...it is scary opening a hive the first time.
You will also be able to pick up some free localized bees from you local bee keepers. (Healthy colonies EXPAND, and many local bee keepers have all they want and are more than happy to give them away).

3)Always use new equipment
There are some very persistent pests and diseases that can be transmitted through the equipment. Used equipment abounds at some very attractive prices.
It is not worth the risk in my opinion. If you join the local association, some will offer you old equipment for FREE, but we always politely turn it down.
New Equipment is very reasonable, and there are many wholesalers and retailers online.

4)Do NOT to use flower scented deodorant or fabric softeners.
You would think this is Common Sense, but we found out the hard way.

5)Do NOT feed your bees Corn Syrup
There is no verifiable science to support this suggestion.
It is our personal preference. Corn is NOT a natural Bee Food.
Many BeeKeepers DO use Corn Syrup. It is cheap, the bees seem to like it, and the chemistry seems OK.
We refuse to use it, and will continue to do so until there is 100% proof that GM contamination absolutely can NOT
be transmitted to our Bees through Corn Syrup.
We use only 100% Cane Sugar to make our food solution,
and then only use it when necessary.

We strongly recommend the above suggestions.
Our fascination with our Bees continues to grow.
The more we learn,
the more fascinated we become.

This is a wonderful site about BeeKeeping:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnewbees.htm

We don't always agree with him,
but love his attitude about Bees,
and his approach to natural BeeKeeping.

So far, we have adhered to more conventional methods,
but will try a Top Bar hive soon, maybe this season.

You may have a problem with neighbors, especially if they have children,
or if any of them are highly allergic to Bee Stings.
It would be a good idea to check that out first. They would have a hard time proving that it was one of your bees that stung them, but the process would be a nightmare.

We will be glad to answer any specific questions you may have.
Good Luck in your endeavors!

bvar22 & Starkraven, Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas
Living Well on stuff we learned in the '60s