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Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:35 AM

So, why didn't the recent mass murderers use bolt action deer rifles and revolvers?

It's because they lack the capacity to carry more than 5-6 rounds of ammunition and do not have the ability for rapid sustained fire.

Deer rifles are not the gun of choice for gun nuts and mass murderers.

Military-style assault rifles and semi-auto pistols with large capacity magazines are the choice of gun nuts and mass murderers.

Ban 'em.

yup

39 replies, 3197 views

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Reply So, why didn't the recent mass murderers use bolt action deer rifles and revolvers? (Original post)
jpak Dec 2012 OP
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #1
Kaleva Dec 2012 #3
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #7
Kaleva Dec 2012 #15
jpak Dec 2012 #6
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #8
jpak Dec 2012 #9
villager Dec 2012 #26
Kennah Dec 2012 #29
Remmah2 Dec 2012 #2
jpak Dec 2012 #4
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #35
ileus Dec 2012 #5
rrneck Dec 2012 #10
jpak Dec 2012 #11
rrneck Dec 2012 #12
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #13
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #14
jpak Dec 2012 #16
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #17
jpak Dec 2012 #19
gejohnston Dec 2012 #20
jpak Dec 2012 #21
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #22
roninjedi Dec 2012 #23
jpak Dec 2012 #24
roninjedi Dec 2012 #28
Kennah Dec 2012 #30
S_B_Jackson Dec 2012 #32
jpak Dec 2012 #33
S_B_Jackson Dec 2012 #37
jpak Dec 2012 #38
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #36
WastedSaint Dec 2012 #18
jpak Dec 2012 #25
zipplewrath Dec 2012 #27
Kennah Dec 2012 #31
jpak Dec 2012 #34
Kennah Dec 2012 #39

Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:50 AM

1. The VT killer and the Luby's killer didn't use high capacity magazines.

In fact, only the last few have used anything but standard magazines. They just had extra mags and switched out quickly when they emptied a mag.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:12 AM

3. The "standard" detachable magazine capacity in Michigan for hunting is 5 rounds

Your comment:

" They just had extra mags and switched out quickly when they emptied a mag."

Since they can be switched out so quickly as you say, there then isn't any justificiation to have mags for semi-automatic rifles that hold more then 5 rounds.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:03 AM

7. Most rampage shootings are with handguns. N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:40 PM

15. And I've advocated for the banning of the sale of new or imported semi-automatic handguns.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:02 AM

6. Your Luby's hero used a Glock and a Ruger P89 - both had high capacity magazines

Massacre apology fail

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:12 AM

8. Both are handguns.

In neither one did he use an extended mag.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:14 AM

9. The"standard" clips hold up to 15 rounds - and they suck

massacre apology fail once again.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:22 PM

26. I guess I shouldn't be surprised they're crawling out to issue their standard blood-soaked apologies

...once again.

You'd think they'd be at least a little chastened by recent events. But no.

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Response to jpak (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:47 PM

29. Mass Shootings at Virginia Tech: Report of the Review Panel

"The panel concluded that 10-round magazines that were legal would have not made much difference in the incident."

http://www.governor.virginia.gov/TempContent/techPanelReport.cfm

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:59 AM

2. Remember, assault weapons are the weapon of choise for export by the BATF.

 

Good morning sunshine.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:18 AM

4. Remember, gun nuts oppose restrictions on multiple same-day gun sales in border states

and background checks and waiting periods for private gun sales and transfers.

and gun nuts supported the GOP when they held Eric Holder in contempt.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:38 AM

35. Not all gun owners do...and you call all of us gun nuts

Please feel free to point out any NRA talking points.

Things I support

NICS checks or equivalent on all transactions, even private party transaction and gifts. My approach would be a Federal FOID that you would automatically get at 18yo so they are not a "firearms ownership licenses", a common objection to that approach. The check is then if the FOID is still valid for the sale to proceed. This is easy from the IT perspective. Note the NRA rejects the FOID approach.

Limitation of pistol magazines to what fits inside the grip of the gun. Require that new designs not support magazines that extend beneath the handle (BATF already has authority to force design changes). This is readily demonstrated by the Ruger line of .22LR handguns and the Astra 400/600. Grandfather or buy back at retail price non-conforming magazines. This approach also slows down magazine changes. Note that the NRA has rejected magazine limitations

All firearms must be secured when not in use, being cleaned, transported, etc. While California got stupid on parts of this, its the right thing to do. Some will miss their old time glass front display cases or wall rack, but proper security is a must. Would consider an exemption for non-functional devices. I believe the NRA has fought mandatory safes.

Somethings I have mixed feelings about/no definitive solution

Mandatory owner training. It is not required to exercise any other enumerated right, but I have seen some very scary stuff over the years. Not sure what the standards should be, but I come down on the side of some training being required. The NRA has fought this.

Mandatory safety training for children. Enough for them to overcome their natural curiosity and get an adult should they find an unsecured firearm. While some would find that more offensive than the fundies find sex ed, until things change, its basic safety and needs to be done. Not sure the best way, but it is clearly called for. NRA has not taken a stand on this but does offer such classes. I still don't see it as a talking point.

Waiting periods. For someone who already has firearms, not sure what purpose they serve. For first time owners I support them. Overall I think they are a good idea. Not sure what the right time length should be. 1 weeks seems good. There are reports that Lanza tried to buy a rifle but was stopped by the mandated waiting period (if the media reports are to be believed). NRA opposes waiting periods

Better mental health reporting and supervision. Seen a number of posts on that here. Clearly something is called for, but how to do it is not clear. Loughner never should have been allowed to have a gun. The NRA has fought additional reporting of some types of problems.

===============================================
That's my current working list. Still thinking about long guns, and have some thoughts, but not enough to post yet. There are other issues as well but this is what I have worked up so far. Some are clearly more ready than others. Open for comment and discussion.
===============================================

Some background:
My focus is in most of this is protecting the ability of those who need it to have access to effective self defense, and today that means a semi automatic handgun. There was a time I was much more pro gun control, not surprising given my background. What changed my mind was when my late wife was part of the shelter movement after she retired. She started teaching women only classes without any sanction or insurance. It was and remains controversial in the shelter movement. Later I became deeply concerned about GLBTs being bashed and killed. T*s are getting killed in our cities and damn few seem to give a damn, including the police. I have skin in that game. These are not people going into bad areas and doing questionable things, these are just people living their lives under threat. Sometimes it even follows them home. That is why they arm themselves and they will gladly disarm when the threat goes away. That is why I support handguns for self defense. Its not for the rude toters, it is for those facing real threats of violence that the police cannot abate and sometimes do not ever care about. Those who would disarm those under threat need to consider how they would tell someone lying there bleeding and bashed, tortured or shot that somehow that is better than if they had the ability to defend themselves and used it. I for one think it is the liberal and progressive approach to help them, not leave them to the predators, YMMV.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:35 AM

5. Love my 1968 22-250 Sako.

What a piece of shooting machinery.


I wish I had a dollar for every varmint it's taken.

dozens of turkey, and several deer.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:20 AM

10. So tell us

how many dead children is not a tragedy.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:23 AM

11. How many dead children are worth the price of gun CULTure "freedom"?

n/t

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Response to jpak (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:28 AM

12. That's what I thought. nt

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:59 AM

13. Detachable magazines means rapid reloading.

 

Even the 100-year-old 1911 that only holds 7 rounds in the magazine can be reloaded in seconds. If you have a load bearing vest that allows you to carry a dozen loaded magazines you can easily sustain 70 or 80 shots.

The only solution here is to restrict all semi-automatic weapons with detachable magazines. Make them Class III weapons like machine guns.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:21 PM

14. Explain the clock tower shooting.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:54 PM

16. That was before you could buy AR-15s and AKs and all that shit

In 1966, you had a choice of bolt action, pump or semi-auto deer rifles that could only carry 5 rounds.

M1 carbines had only 10 round magazines.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:18 PM

17. So, the style of weapon has changed, with an increment in volume of fire.

Lets say we take away the non-deer hunting weapons.

Will you accept disasters like Whitlock? Or do we go further and no deer guns either?
I'm not picking a fight, just trying to understand.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:36 PM

19. Deer rifles are OK -they are legally restricted to the number of rounds they can carry

Assault weapons are not - and I do not accept the gun nut definition of assault weapons.

Whitlock would have had to pass a background check to get his weapons today - and a waiting period.

If assault weapons like the M-1 carbine were banned, he would not have got one.

Gun nuts cannot blame assault weapon massacres on deer hunters.

nope

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Response to jpak (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:54 PM

20. how many mass shootings have been carried out with an M-1 carbine?

and I don't accept your definition.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:56 PM

21. They all suck - ban 'em

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:48 PM

22. According to the blow by blow on wiki

Whitlock used the shotgun and the Remington. He probably planned to use the M1 when people got into the tower to stop him, but he didn't or didn't get a chance.

The Remington was a classic deer gun. They still produce that very same model for that purpose.

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Response to jpak (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:24 PM

23. Bolt-actions aren't necessarily low capicity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield

The magazine can be removed completely and replaced with a fully loaded magazine. Soldiers in WWII used 5 round stripper clips to quickly reload their bolt guns as well. Many bans can be gotten around with simple technological changes.

Not trying to poo-pooh your suggestion out of hand. Just bringing up flaws you might consider.

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Response to roninjedi (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:18 PM

24. Ban alterations too - make them hard time sentences

fines and loss of The Precious.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:18 PM

28. I see your point about banning alterations

I was just trying to point out that guns like the Lee Enfield #4 doesn't need to be altered. That magazine pops out with the press of a switch. The stripper clip that allows quick reloading on the battlefield is just a little strip of metal bent an a particular way. Again, no alteration to the weapon.

Also, I wouldn't make any alteration that was illegal. I'd probably be afraid to. Unfortunately, the psychotic guy who storms into my workplace to kill everyone won't care about that law and he'll have altered his gun regardless of what the law says.


and loss of The Precious.


I'm sorry, was it your intent to be consescending or insulting?

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Response to jpak (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:57 PM

30. M1 carbines had both 15 and 30 round mags.

Semiautomatic M1 Garands have been available for decades before.

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Response to jpak (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:17 PM

32. You need get your facts straight, jpak...

Colt began offering the semi-auto SP1 variant of the AR-15 series in 1963, and has offered it steadily in one form or another since.

Browning imported the FAL, in semi-auto configuration, for a short time in the early 1960's (about 1961). They ceased importation after only a year or two as they were deemed by the ATF as easily convertable to automatic-fire.

CETME imported semi-auto versions into the US for only a short time in the late 1960's or early 1970's, but the number was VERY small, and demand was never high. They are fairly rare.

HK began importation of the G3 series (semi-auto variants) in the late 1960's, but really did not gain any market acceptance until they established HK-USA in about 1978, when the product became widely known.

So you had a choice of semi-automatic "evil black rifles", M1 Garand (semi-automatic) battle rifles, M1 Carbines, bolt-action, and lever-action rifles; as for shotguns one could purchase a break-action, a lever-action, pump-action, or semi-automatic varieties (first available for sale from Browning beginning in 1905).

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Response to S_B_Jackson (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:31 AM

33. Those were for law enforcement - you did not see them in Field and Stream and Outdoor Life

or in the Sears Catalog.

You did not see them in sporting goods stores or L.L. Bean.

Back in those days "sporting" guns were for hunting game - not humans.

and they did not come with penis enlargement "dress up" accessories.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:14 PM

37. They were available for order at your local gun store...

army/navy stores, the local feed and grain store or rural general store for order to anyone who wanted one and could pay.

Semi-auto shotguns were indeed available in the Sears catalog and had been, by 1960, for for four + decades.

Your claims that they weren't available is false....as usual, jpak, you're just make it up as you go along.

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Response to S_B_Jackson (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:06 PM

38. Semi-auto shotguns have 4 round tube magazines

and I never saw an AK or and AR15 in a sporting goods store until the Reagan Era when the Red Dawn Survivalist Kooks crawled out from under their rocks.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:39 AM

36. There were other civilian weapons that were comparable to the ARs available at the time

The M-1 Carbine had 30 round mags starting in WWII

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:26 PM

18. He killed 13 people and wounded 32 others with single shot weapons? Another reason to bad Sniper

 

Rifles.

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Response to WastedSaint (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:20 PM

25. Why do people obfuscate massacres to defend NRA policies?

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:22 PM

27. His momma didn't own them

I don't believe she owned any. He had limited choices. The real question is why she owned them.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:59 PM

31. Cumbria, 12 dead, 11 wounded, plus the shooter dead

Weapons used were a 12 gauge double barrel shotgun and a .22 bolt rifle, like hunters use.

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Response to Kennah (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:33 AM

34. If he used an AR15, the death toll would be 10 times that

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #34)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:30 AM

39. Because mass shooters kill on average 120 people?

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