Guns in bars, what could go wrong? (apparently very little)

[Trunk Monkey]

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/09/30/carry-fear-silenced.html

A year after the sound and fury over a state law allowing concealed guns in bars and restaurants, there has been silence.

Almost no incidents have been reported involving concealed-carry permit holders, and there has been no spike in violence as predicted by some opponents concerned about the volatile mix of alcohol and guns.

The impact is difficult to assess, however, because law-enforcement and state agencies do not formally track violations involving guns in bars.

But those on both sides of the issue agree all is calm, so far.

Carry in a bar has been legal in Colorado since before it was Colorado and we don't have a lot of problems either

[Clames]

1. Well, the antis have a rather poor prediction record...

...streets still aren't filled with blood and all that.

[4th law of robotics]

4. If you flip their predictions around they are accurate 99.999% of the time

with a .001 margin of error.

"This will make us safer" = more people are going to die.
"Blood will run in the streets" = crime rates will plummet.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

2. truth is that we will never know how many guns are in bars because

who in the hell goes around shouting Hey I got a Gun in my pants and I'm happy to see you.

[4th law of robotics]

3. I was a little concerned about that law until

the usual suspects predicted it would lead to BLOOD RUNNING IN THE STREETS!

At that point I knew that at worst nothing would happen, more likely crime would go down slightly.

[Starboard Tack]

5. Funny thing, the only people I ever see mention "Blood in the streets" are gun carriers.

Wonder what that's all about. Why would there be blood in the street.
"Almost no incidents have been reported involving concealed-carry permit holders" How many is almost? Is it the same as almost no movie theaters? Or does it mean the permit holders have kept their pistols in their pants. I can't really imagine someone who is so paranoid that they need to carry a gun into a bar, ever using it. Obviously, they are not among Klecks 2.5 million annual DGUs, LOL.

[Clames]

7. Give it a rest.

Nobody buys your deliberate obtuseness so try some new material. You know damned well that the anti-gun brigade has opposed expanded CCW permitting laws on the basis that it would bring back the "Wild West" days and their shrilling has been for absolutely nothing. Even Hemenway admits that DGU's happen > 100,000 times per year so your clinging to the high-end of Kleck's estimate (he did give a range which is curiously ignored by you and most anti-gun advocates) is doing you no favors in this topic.

[Starboard Tack]

110. 100,000 sounds about right

Please supply links for the rest

[Clames]

134. It's the low-end estimate.

As for links? Are you impaired from doing your own work? Do you really need someone to hold your hand because Google is too complicated?

Unfortunately, half the population yearns for Wild West sensibilities...

http://www.politicususa.com/choice-rugged-individualism-senseless-violence.html

Which was even posted on DU though the topic went nowhere:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002990700


You can do your own homework for the rest of it. Have fun!

[Starboard Tack]

152. If I were as unpleasantly patronizing and condescending as you, I'd wear a gun too.

My attempts to have a civil conversation with you are over.

[Clames]

162. You only wish you could be as civil as me.

You are nothing but patronizing and condescending to gun owners and the majority of those who post in this group in general. Deliberately obtuse too. Go play your games somewhere else...

[JDPriestly]

76. It's been running in my neighborhood. We asked for additional police presence.

That's how bad it is. Depends on where you are.

Guns and drugs, guns and alcohol are very bad mixes.

Ask a police officer.

[Eleanors38]

90. Hhhh...heh-heh-heh...Hhhh..heh-heh. You said the "P" word.nt

[Ashgrey77]

6. I know a TON of people that think it's illegal in CO.

Bartenders, friends, bar owners. I constantly have to tell them it is allowed, just don't drink. People also think those little no carry signs they put in business windows here are enforceable. Like in you can be arrested for going into a business with a sign if you're armed. Which is not true, they can just ask you to leave and refuse service if they notice you are armed or CCing. You could be arrested for trespassing if you refused to leave but that has nothing to do with being arrested for being armed. Carrying at the bar here has never been a problem. You probably wouldn't even notice that guy sitting next to you is CCing.

[ileus]

8. It's never been about bars, but eating in peace with our families

at a place that also has a bar inside.....like most fine dining establishments.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

9. RIGHT

....and so until someone drinks, drives and kills, no need for banning drinking and driving.

Oh, but wait, no one who EVER drinks has their judgment impaired when carrying a gun....WHAT A LOAD OF ......

[ileus]

10. That's why it's already illegal to consume and carry.

[Trunk Monkey]

11. False equivalency

the law made it legal to carry in a bar in Ohio not drink.

It's been legal to carry in a bar (not drink) in Colorado since 1876 (it was actually legal before that we just weren't Colorado) In a hundred and thirty six years no one has noted it causing enough of a problem to attempt to change the law.

I'm sure it'll happen any day now though.

Do you think that some one who is dumb enough to become intoxicated while carrying a firearm would be stopped by a law prohibiting them from carry?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

14. Right

....because EVERYONE goes to a bar to CARRY but Not DRINK.

Common Sense not with standing.

[glacierbay]

19. Then provide the proof that it's a big problem.

I'm sure you have links.

[Oneka]

35. I go to bars on a regular basis

and carry, and have one drink, it can be done.
Where i live i can be in a bar and even drink while carrying, i just can't have a BAC, of .04 or higher, while carrying.
I shoot in a trap/skeet/5 stand league, and my entire teem has a beer when we get there, then go shoot our event of the evening. some of the other guys, none of which have carry permits, have another one or two after we shoot, i choose not to, since it would probably put me over the limit to carry.

This DU'er has also been on the inside of a bar while carrying and not drinking, but please feel free to believe that it never happens. He got severely beaten for his trouble not long ago after coming out of a bar while armed and sober. I hope his lawsuit is pending by now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1059726

[fightthegoodfightnow]

42. There are sober 'law abiding' people.....

...who illegally bring loaded guns to airport check points in a post 9/11 world that accidentally go off.

Do we really need to mix alcohol in that formula?

[Oneka]

79. Do we really need to change the goalposts?

We're not talking about airport security checkpoints here are we?

[PavePusher]

140. If you are discussing the recent post here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117273925

You might want to review who fired the gun.

Toodles!

[hack89]

43. I have dinner at resturants that have bars all the time and never drink alcohol

this is what this law permits.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

46. And I should have to worry about who drinks and carries?

No thanks.

[glacierbay]

51. Your worrying about it is your problem

I myself have no problem with it as long as the citizen is not drinking.

[hack89]

52. Do you worry about all those cars in the bar parking lot?

why should anyone who drives to a bar be allowed to consume alcohol?

And no - you need to worry about actual threats to your life. You hyperventilate about a near nonexistent threat while ignore the more likely threat..

[fightthegoodfightnow]

56. You Need a Permit to Drive a Car

Let me know when 12 states consider doing away with driving permits as they are with concealed weapon permits and then we can discuss the influence of alcohol on each.

[glacierbay]

57. What 12 states are you talking about?

Currently there are only 4 states that don't require permits, AK, AZ, WY, and VT. What other 8 are you talking about?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

60. True

Now...retread what I wrote....that's right


Let me know when 12 states consider doing away with driving permits as they are with concealed weapon permits and then we can discuss the influence of alcohol on each.

[glacierbay]

62. Ok I got it

my apologies.

[Atypical Liberal]

119. There is a reason why they are considering doing away with concealed weapons permits.

The reason why states are considering doing away with CCW permits is because they have discovered that people with such permits are hardly ever involved in crimes. It is a waste of taxpayer resources to create a bureaucracy around tracking such people.

This is almost assuredly not the case for people who drive cars. There are far more motor vehicle crimes committed, and far more deaths, than those committed by CCW permit holders.

[hack89]

59. So it is not the actual danger to society that bothers you

you just don't like guns.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

61. I'm sure that's what you....

.....'think.'

[hack89]

63. You are so hot and bothered about guns in bars

yet so dismissive of drunk drivers.

Not wanting to accuse you of hypocrisy or anything but let me guess - like most of us you routinely drive to places where you then consume alcohol. Am I correct?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

65. Incorrect

.

[hack89]

69. When you can document actual harm from these laws let me know

I am not willing to surrender civil liberties based on your unsubstantiated fears. I am sure you can understand why.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

70. Have a Drink

...and lock and load.

There is no defense for that.

[hack89]

71. So you must be able to document many instances of this happening.

care to share your evidence with us? You do have some actual evidence, don't you?

[virginia mountainman]

106. Actually my 15 year old daughter is driving HER car right now...She has NO drivers license at all...

I can see her out the window, driving on a PRIVATE road, that is on PRIVATE property....

She got her sweet 16 early...

And NO LAWS are being broken at all....

Try again...

[PavePusher]

141. Why are you worried about the legal people with no ill intentions...

but apparently not the actual criminals who haven't obey the laws for, like, ever?

[AtheistCrusader]

130. I don't drink. Sometimes I go to bars.

I'm always designated driver. Sometimes the food is really good.
I have every normal reason to carry, and no reason, despite my physical presence in a bar, not to carry.

[Starboard Tack]

111. Why would a gun carrier go to a bar?

He can't drink. He can't take his gun out and play with it. What would be the point? Maybe that's why there have been almost no incidents. Sounds pretty dull.

[glacierbay]

112. A lot of restaurants have bars,

designated driver, be with friends, lots of reasons. In my state, guns are not allowed in bars yet, but when it happens, I won't lose any sleep over it, it's just not a big deal.

[Starboard Tack]

114. I won't lose any sleep about it either

I see people do foolish things every day and don't lose a wink of sleep.

[glacierbay]

116. What's foolish about it

as long as it's legal, the citizen is properly licensed, and the bar allows for it, then what's the problem?

[hack89]

113. Applebee's has a bar - what if I want to have dinner? nt

[Starboard Tack]

115. Hey, you want to have dinner at Applebee's, be my guest. nt

[glacierbay]

118. Applebee's, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

especially they're BBQ baby back beef ribs w/coleslaw.

[hack89]

120. So that is why I would be carrying a gun in a bar. nt

[Atypical Liberal]

122. To go to RESTAURANTS.

That is almost certainly what this law was about from the beginning.

There are TONS of restaurants that have bars inside. Longhorns. Texas Road House. Red Lobster. Applebee's. Ruby Tuesday's. Outback. And on and on and on.

Every one of these establishments has an honest-to-goodness BAR inside. Most people, however, are just going to eat a meal.

If you carry a concealed weapon habitually, and you go out to eat, chances are that you will end up at an establishment that houses a bar. Without this law, you would have to leave your firearm in your vehicle. I do not consider this very safe and would rather the firearm stay on the person of the CCW holder.

They are still not allowed to be intoxicated while carrying, and never were.

[Starboard Tack]

137. I shall refrain from commenting on your dining choices.

However, let me extend my question. Why would anyone want to take a loaded gun into a restaurant? To shoot the lobster?
As you say, most people are just going to eat a meal.

"If you carry a concealed weapon habitually, and you go out to eat, chances are that you will end up at an establishment that houses a bar. Without this law, you would have to leave your firearm in your vehicle. I do not consider this very safe and would rather the firearm stay on the person of the CCW holder. "

Maybe they should rethink their "habit" and leave their guns at home, or safely secured in their vehicle.

[Atypical Liberal]

149. For the same reason this lady wanted to bring one into this restaurant:

However, let me extend my question. Why would anyone want to take a loaded gun into a restaurant? To shoot the lobster?
As you say, most people are just going to eat a meal.

For the same reason why this lady wanted to bring a loaded gun into a restaurant:

Maybe they should rethink their "habit" and leave their guns at home, or safely secured in their vehicle.

Just like Suzanna Graitia Hupp did, right? She is so happy she left her firearm safely secured in her vehicle that day.

[Starboard Tack]

150. She left it where it belonged.

Unfortunately, George Hennard did not. Two wrongs do not make a right, but three lefts do. Sounds like you share her taste in both politics and haute cuisine.

[Atypical Liberal]

151. And as a result, she could not fight back and try to save her parents.

She left it where it belonged.

And as a result, she was defenseless when George decided to kill people in that restaurant.

Unfortunately, George Hennard did not.

That's right, criminals like George Hennard do criminal things.

You asked why people would want to carry a firearm in a restaurant, and there is your answer: Sometimes the George Hennards of the world decide to stop by the restaurant you are visiting.

Two wrongs do not make a right, but three lefts do. Sounds like you share her taste in both politics and haute cuisine.

Carrying a handgun for self-defense is not a wrong.

I certainly agree with her stance on self-defense and her interpretation of the second amendment as she states in the video.

Violent crime doesn't make an appointment. People want to carry concealed firearms in restaurants for the same reason they want to carry them in churches, or schools, or anyplace else - to be prepared in case of violent attack.

People like yourself would rather they not be able to do that, but that's too bad.

[Starboard Tack]

153. Shit happens.

You think that because some gun nut goes off every once in a while we should all be carrying guns to restaurants. Amazing problem solving skills you have.

[beevul]

157. It must be nice...

"You think that because some gun nut goes off every once in a while we should all be carrying guns to restaurants. Amazing problem solving skills you have."


Nice to have it both ways, I mean.

"You think that because some gun nut goes off every once in a while..."

And yet, people on your side of the issue "think that because some gun nut goes off every once in a while" that every gun in America should be banned. "

Does "Shut off the spigot" ring a bell?

How about "carry on dyin y'all"?

And to posters on the anti-gun side that express that line of reasoning, you say...nothing. That calls the sincerity and integrity of your position, and your argument, into question, at a minimum.

Do you really and truly subscribe to the belief that while pro-gun people are "misguided/insert pejorative here" for believing people whould be allowed to carry guns because of these incidents, while anti-gunners are completely justified to call for banning them all "shut off the spigot" for the same reasons?

Inquiring minds want to know, because thats surely how it looks.





"we should all be carrying guns to restaurants."

The straw man cometh.

Find any significant portion percentage or demographic, not on the anti-gun side of the issue, that actually proposes that.

Go ahead.

I bet if you do a DU search of "we should all carry a gun", or "guns for everyone" or "arm everyone", that the results you come up with, show that sentiment expressed by anti-gun posters, and attributed to pro-gunners who have never expressed anything of the sort.

And I'd just bet you might find an actual pro gun poster expressing that sentiment...for every ten to thirty anti-gun posters trying to smear the rest who do not express that sentiment or hold that belief, with it.

[Atypical Liberal]

161. You are right. Shit does happen. Now what should people do when it does?

Shit happens.

You are right, shit does indeed happen. So what should people do when it happens to them? Without a firearm, you have three choices: run away if you are fast enough, submit if you are tough enough, or fight if you are strong enough.

And if you aren't fast enough, tough enough, or strong enough? Well, I guess then it's just tough shit that happens, eh?

You think that because some gun nut goes off every once in a while we should all be carrying guns to restaurants. Amazing problem solving skills you have.

No, I do not think that at all.

I think everyone should have a choice as to whether or not to carry a gun in restaurants.

You, on the other hand, don't want anyone to have that choice. You want everyone to be just as helpless as Suzanna was when shit happens. Right?

[Starboard Tack]

163. Show me where I propose taking that "choice" away from you.

I have never advocated taking away anybody's choice. I advise people not to make that choice. Big difference. Like your buddy Clames and your buddy Beevil, you mischaracterize what I want and think. You all suffer from very poor reading comprehension skills, which should make you pause before making decisions based on anything you read.

[Atypical Liberal]

164. Oh good. I'm glad to hear you support the choice of Concealed Carry.

I have never advocated taking away anybody's choice. I advise people not to make that choice. Big difference.

Good. I'm glad to hear that you support lawful concealed carry and people being allowed to have the choice to do so or not, in restaurants, college campuses, movie theaters, etc.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

195. What about the rights of those establishments?

You don't want to patronize establishments that ban guns, don't!

[Atypical Liberal]

197. What about the rights of those establishments to bar gay people, or African-Americans?

The right to keep and bear arms is a Constitutional, individual right incorporated to the states.

An establishment should no more be able to bar the carrying of firearms than it should be to bar people of a certain color or sexual orientation.

UNLESS

They take direct responsibility and action to ensure the safety of the public therein.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

198. Nonsense

One is a person. The other is an object.

The idea that a gun is entitled to equal rights is absurd.

An establishment has a right to establish a dress code. A gun is far more dangerous.

You don't want to go there, don't.

[Atypical Liberal]

218. No one has suggested that inanimate objects have rights.

Nonsense One is a person. The other is an object.

The idea that a gun is entitled to equal rights is absurd.

An establishment has a right to establish a dress code. A gun is far more dangerous.

You don't want to go there, don't.

No one has suggested that inanimate objects have rights.

PEOPLE have rights, and they have the CONSTITUTIONAL right to keep and bear arms and that right has been incorporated to the states.

I'm not a big fan of dress codes, either, for that matter. They tend to be rather elitist.

Would you be OK with a dress code that prohibited hijabs or a yarmulka?

But at least a dress code doesn't render a person defenseless.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

221. THEN DON'T GO THERE

What's dangerous is bringing a gun into a bar.

[Atypical Liberal]

229. Why not? What if I want to go there?

What's dangerous is bringing a gun into a bar.

Why?

It's already illegal for one to be intoxicated and carry a firearm.

The whole purpose of this law is not so that CCW permit holders can go get their drink on while packing heat.

The purpose of this law is so that CCW permit holders don't have to leave their firearms in their cars when they go to restaurants that happen to serve alcohol.

I'm no more dangerous going to eat dinner at Longhorn's, Applebee's, Ruby Tuesday's, Texas Roadhouse, Outback, or Red Lobster than I am going to the local Chinese joint on the corner.

THEN DON'T GO THERE

What if I want to go there, I just don't want to be discriminated against for exercising a Constitutional right?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

233. Then Don't Bring a Gun

Seriously....why give business to a place that does not agree with you.

They are under NO obligation to accept guns any more than they are to accept credit cards.

[Atypical Liberal]

234. I'd rather they just respect my Constitutional rights.

why give business to a place that does not agree with you.

Do you think it would be OK for businesses to discriminate against homosexuals and African-Americans? After all, why would they want to go to a place that does not agree with them?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

235. There You Go Again

Racial and sexual identity doesn't require buying and owning any thing.

[Atypical Liberal]

236. I never said they did.

But they are all still equivalent civil rights.

[Trunk Monkey]

201. I agree, the property owner has the right to ban firearm son his/her property

I think I've seen two gun buster signs in Colorado Springs. One at the SSFCU at Academy and Constitution and the other at the Concentra on Mark Dabling. (neither has the force of law)

I have yet to see one on a bar.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

202. Agree

....but would add that I have seen at a bar.

[Trunk Monkey]

203. In Colorado Springs?

I found out about the one at Concentra because I went there for my yearly UA. I went straight from work in uniform (IOW armed) and didn't notice the sign till a tech said something about my gun in the back room.

The were cool about it, I had to empty my pockets into a lock box anyway. I apologized and never carried a gun in there again.

The one on South Academy doesn't have a sign and it's closer to work so I go there now.

[Starboard Tack]

238. Sorry, I do not support that choice at all.

You appear to still be having comprehension issues.

[Atypical Liberal]

240. Hmm. I wonder what you meant when you said this:

I have never advocated taking away anybody's choice.

I guess you are advocating taking away someone's choice, after all.

[Starboard Tack]

241. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Not supporting an individual's choice is quite different to taking that choice away.

[Atypical Liberal]

242. I'm glad you support people having the choice to carry concealed weapons.

I'm glad you support people having the choice to carry concealed weapons even though you don't support carrying concealed weapons.

[mvccd1000]

237. Well...

... I don't see where you leave people much of a choice with positions like this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=52688

The only solution and the one which will be implemented eventually.
A total ban on certain types of weapons and equipment in public places. Not control, BAN! Break it and the consequences will break you.

Sounds like you're making the choice for the rest of us.

[Starboard Tack]

239. No, you make your own choices in life

The choices you make today will determine the choices that will be available to you tomorrow.

[GreenStormCloud]

168. Ever hear of the Luby's massacre in Killen, TX?

24 dead. Suzanna Hupp wishes she had carriered her revolver into Luby's with her.

Parking lots of any kind, including restaurant parking lots, are favorite hunting grounds used by muggers. If the gun is in the car then you can't use it to defend against a mugger.

[Starboard Tack]

170. Yes, and it's Killeen.

In a kneejerk reaction, the Texas legislature changed to "shall issue", because MS. Hupp, long term Republican member, was unable to join the fray.
Classic "posse" mentality.
I have no idea what parking lots and muggers have to do with Luby's.

[gejohnston]

171. join in the fray?

trivializing the inability to stop or mitigate a tragedy by comparing it to a mutual boxing match is more on the level of the some of the less traveled and learned, not something I would expect from you.
and look up the history of posses in the US, it was a civic duty.

[Starboard Tack]

176. I was referring to the legislation, not the incident.

[GreenStormCloud]

185. You were referring to the incident.

"Join the fray" in your context has no other possible meaning. If she had been armed she could have stopped the killing. Obviously a stern voice wasn't doing any good.

She was not yet a member of the legislature. The incident was in 1991, shall-carry was signed in 1995, she was elected to the legislature in 1996. She was a private citizen when she testified for shall-issue laws, so she was not a "long term Republican member". So your comment, in reference to the legislature, makes absolutely no sense.

From 1991 to 1995 is plenty of time to cool off so it hardly qualifies as a knee-jerk response or posse mentality. The bill was thoroughly discussed and vetoed by the Democratic governor, Richards.

The relationship to Luby's and parking lots should have been obvious. Like many restaurants, Luby's had a parking lot. In Texas that would be most restaurants have parking lots. Parking lots are often higher crime areas because mugger know that people with money or credit cards are going to be coming and going from the restaurants, and will be alone or in a tiny groups of two and will be easy prey. Parking lots are an area where a person may need to defend themselves, so to be armed in the parking lot means that we have to carry the gun while in the restaurant also.

Regarding Kileen/Killeen: So I made a typo. Big deal. At my age I get to make an occasional typo.

[Jenoch]

174. "Why would anyone want to take a loaded gun into a restaurant?"

The answer to your question is the same as the axiom in buying real estate, location, location, location. If a restaurant is located in an area with a nighttime crime problem, that is the reason to be carrying a gun into a restaurant. The walk to and from the restaurant is when a citizen might be vulnerable.

http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/121637649.html?refer=y

[Starboard Tack]

178. It's called situational awareness.

Go dining in shark infested waters and you're likely to get bitten. The food really has to be worth it.

"Nyhus said the attacks won't scare him out of the neighborhood, but he'll probably be more cautious about going out, especially at night.

"I don't feel any motivation to go out and buy a gun or pepper spray or anything," he said. "I still consider this a safe neighborhood, I'm just more aware that there are unsafe people out there."

[Jenoch]

183. What about the people that actually

live in the neighborhood? Sure, that guy quoted in the paper indicated he would not go out at night, but that neighborhood had not really been a dangerous place in the past, nor is it particularly dangerous now. It just happened to be during that stretch of time last year when a small group of criminals decided to make it dangerous.

I agree with you about situational awareness. The ex-marine had situational awareness, and a gun, and he survived the assault.

[Starboard Tack]

184. I'll agree the ex-marine was lucky to be armed.

I'm not too sold on his situational awareness, though. But I wasn't there. I remember this incident. We had a thread on it back in May of last year. If we wait long enough, I'm sure there will be another such incident, what with all those concealed weapons being carried and 2.5 million DGUs every year. Funny how the press manages to find but a handful, yet anonymous phone callers find out about millions. What a strange world we live in.

[GreenStormCloud]

186. Not strange. Most DGUs are not newsworthy.

Most DGUs con't involve anybody actually getting shot. I know or have known several people who have had legitimate DGUs. None of them fired a shot. None were in the media. In all of them the criminal ran away and made good his escape. In my wife's two DGUs and the time I pulled a gun on a burglar, no shots were fired and they ran away and were not caught. Nothing in the media.

The media needs blood, or something unusual, to print a story.

[Starboard Tack]

187. You pulled the trigger, yet no shots were fired?

So, let me understand this correctly, you are saying that most DGUs are not newsworthy because the guns were never used, except as pointing devices?
I've noticed that you seek out some pretty bloody stories all the time to demonstrate how effective guns are as self defense tools. Are those the stories you refer to?

[GreenStormCloud]

189. "Pulled a gun" is another way of saying "drew a gun".

I pointed it at the burglar at my wife's workplace. I used to work there too, for about a year. We arrived with a burglary in progress. When I pointed the .45 at him, he set down what he was stealing and calmly turned his back to me and walked away. He was no threat to so I couldn't do anything about it, except try to get a good description. (That was before Castle Doctrine was law in Texas. Even today I would not shoot in that situation.) Didn't make the news.

Surely you have heard the phrase, "If it bleeds, it leads." refering to the media's selection of what stories to cover. Unless there is something unusual about a DGU that doesn't involve someone getting shot then it won't be reported by the media. A recent example of such a story would be the 11 year old girl with the pink rifle that scared away some home invaders.

[Starboard Tack]

192. Oops! Misread your post. I must've been trigger happy.

[Trunk Monkey]

123. As Glacier pointed out

There are several restaurants that serve alcohol that I might wish to go to or I may wish to go to the local pool hall or the local tavern.

I don't do night clubs and I don't drink anyway

[Starboard Tack]

154. I go to bars to drink and play pool and chat with friends

I go to the range to shoot guns. I go to restaurants to eat meals. Alcohol and meals go very well together. Guns and alcohol, not so much. Guns and food, not so much.

[glacierbay]

155. Guns and alcohol don't mix,

correct, but what evidence can you produce that people with a CCW go to bars to drink? Do you have any evidence that people with CCW's have been a problem in bars by drinking while carrying? And why would guns and food not mix? Unless you're talking about the gun mixed with your food.

[Starboard Tack]

156. I have no evidence and I didn't make any claim that they went to drink.

Personally, I don't go to bars or restaurants where people carry guns. But I'm a tad picky where I drink and eat. Eating one's gun is usually one's final meal.

[glacierbay]

158. True

You were LEO at one time, I thought you would get my comment.
People who carry at restaurants or bars usually carry concealed so you could be sitting next to or across the aisle from them and you wouldn't even know it.

[Starboard Tack]

179. Maybe, on the few occasions that I eat in bars/restaurants outside of California.

I really don't think about it. I study other things about people when assessing whether or not they present a threat. The most common threat in any bar is the obnoxious drunk.

[glacierbay]

180. Or the seductive drunk woman who's hitting on

other guys while her husband is there with her.

[Starboard Tack]

182. Yep! She falls into the same category.

[Trunk Monkey]

167. You do go to bars or restaurants where people carry guns you just don't know it

And as I pointed out somewhere else I've been stone cold sober for almost 30 years. So I don't go anywhere to drink

[Starboard Tack]

169. I think I am more aware of where I go than you, unless you're stalking me.

Which would be extremely difficult. There are very few bars in my world. I know everyone in them. They'd laugh at anyone carrying a gun in the bar.
I know a lot of guys here claim to carry concealed guns around. Frankly, I doubt any of them do, at least regularly. Lots of bluster and hot air about their "rights", but really, how many would be so foolish?

[4th law of robotics]

177. Drinking and driving doesn't go together

it ought to be illegal for bars to have parking lots then.

[Starboard Tack]

181. Interestingly, most bars I frequent do not have parking lots.

I'm hard pressed to think of one that does, unless it is primarily a restaurant. I think automatic breathalyzers should be installed in vehicles, so they won't start if the driver is over the limit. Maybe guns could have similar safeguards installed.

[GreenStormCloud]

190. Since you don't have a car that isn't surprising.

You may have noticed that lots of Americans have cars. Business that want them to spend money there have to have parking lots.

[Starboard Tack]

191. I have a Prius. That's a car, though I no longer drive it much.

Cars are great for road trips and picking up supplies. Not so good for going to bars.

[AtheistCrusader]

133. I sometimes eat in bars. I sometimes designated driver for friends going to bars.

If I carry elsewhere, why wouldn't I carry there? I don't drink. Not in bars. Not at home. Nowhere.

[glacierbay]

12. If it's so prevalent

then post the links to it happening in CO.., or for that matter, anywhere.
I know far better than you that CC permit holders are generally honest law abiding citizens who want nothing more than to not have to use their legally carried weapon.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

17. You KNOW?

...better than me because what ....you know me?

It's delusional to think the judgement of law abiding citizens is never impaired by alcohol.

[glacierbay]

20. You misunderstand me

I'm a cop with almost 30 years in, so, yeah, I am much more knowledgable in this area. I never said that alcohol doesn't impair judgement, don't twist my words, what I said was that CC permit holders are generally, let me rephrase that, are overwhelmingly law abiding people who won't drink while carrying, whether in a bar or not.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

24. Like I Said

You don't know me....and don't claim to know better than me. 'I know better...'

Have your believes but don't twist them into something more superior than mine.

Laws are enacted by the majority but not because of the majority.

[Trunk Monkey]

37. Of course it is that's why DRINKING while armed is still illegal in Ohio

In Colorado the law bans possesing a firearm while under the influence.

Again, if the person isn't drinking where is the problem?

Also again, if the person is dumb enough to become intoxicated while armed what law would have stopped them?

I haven't had a drink in 29 years and 10 months do you think I'll suddenly fall under the spell if I carry my firearm at Red Lobster?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

40. Why Should I Worry About Who Has a Gun and Who Has a Drink in a bar?

The combination is lethal and can/should be avoided.

[hack89]

47. Yet you have no problem with people driving to bars?

Lets talk about lethal combinations.

What is more likely to kill you?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

49. You know this because I've said so?

Not

[hack89]

53. So should people that drive to a bar be allowed to consume alchohol?

is it smart considering what a lethal combination booze and cars are?

[petronius]

75. Good question, why should you? I don't, and I suspect most people with

an awareness of statistics don't bother to...

[PavePusher]

143. Dodge. Please cite the evidence that supports your concern. n/t

[PavePusher]

142. Dodge. Cite the evidence to the problem you claim. n/t

[Trunk Monkey]

13. DRINKING and driving ISN'T banned

Any number of people have a drink or two (over the course of a meal) and legally drive every single day in this country.

What's illegal is being intoxicated while operating a motor vehicle

[fightthegoodfightnow]

15. So Do Tell

Who takes away the keys (or bullets) from a drunk man with a gun?

[glacierbay]

16. Like I said

provide the proof that it's been a big problem, until you do, all you're doing is hyperbole.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

18. Didn't Answer the Question

.

[oneshooter]

21. But then again you have offered no proof that it has caused a demonstrable problem.

[glacierbay]

22. Yeah, I did answer the question

so tell us, what's your experience in dealing with CC permitted citizen's? Besides your feelings I mean. How many years do you have interacting with citizens in a capacity that would involve knowing if a citizen is permitted or not?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

25. Dozens

You don't know JACK about me.

[glacierbay]

29. Yeah?

And just how many have gotten drunk while CC'ing?
And you don't even come close to my experience of dealing with armed citizens.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

30. What a LOAD Of BS

Do tell me all you know about me. Your post speaks volumes about your ignorance. Tell me...since you seem to know...what DO I do for a living? How about how many times I've been shot? What...you don't know?

Just as I thought. Your judgment is as impaired as your ignorance about me.

[glacierbay]

31. You said dozens

I said it doesn't even come close to my experience of dealing with armed citizens, lawful and criminal. I've dealt with hundreds over my career, what is your experience?
So, how many of your "dozens' were armed and drunk and where they permitted to CC?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

32. You Tell Me

You seem to know SOOOO very much about me. Tell me, since you seem to know enough to compare my experience to yours: what exactly is my 'experience of dealing with armed citizens, lawful and criminal?'


Right....you don't know.

[glacierbay]

33. Just going by your words

you said dozens, so the makes me much more experienced in dealing with armed citizens. Still haven't answered the question.

Bottom line is that guns in bars by CC permitted citizens has not been a problem at all despite the naysayers.
My state doesn't allow it yet but if they did, I would have no problem with it. Criminals don't generally care about laws.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

34. Seriously

What the heck are you talking about? Dozens of what? Dealing with people with guns? If so, my apologies....thousands over decades.

NOW you know something about me...want to GUESS my career? Right you can't other than to guess.

Bottom line is people who drink and carry concealed weapons put all of us at risk without any of us knowing.....and those who are law abiding do care about the law....when they are sober.

[gejohnston]

36. are you a bartender in a cop bar?

it is the only place I can think of where it would be an issue in DC.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

41. Well...

...that says it all.....those law abiding cops and all.

[friendly_iconoclast]

54. If you weren't so evasive when questioned we wouldn't have to guess, now would we?

Let's recap, shall we?:

1. Asked to show just how, exactly, CCW in places that serve alcohol is a problem, you produce not one piece of empirical example and instead
expend many electrons telling (not showing) us that it's a bad idea.

2. When a veteran cop cites their multi-decade career, you reply by telling us about knowing "dozens" of CC folks. You do not elaborate, nor do you give examples
of your claimed experience.

I'm sorry, but "Trust me, it's a bad idea!" just isn't cutting it...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

58. Yawn....so let's recap.....

.......you don't know me or what I do for a living despite your claims to the contrary.

Oh and I make no apologies for what I think.....again despite your claims to the contrary.

[friendly_iconoclast]

67. What is claimed without evidence can be rejected without evidence.

glacierbay at least cited personal, detailed, experience as to why legal guns in places that serve alcohol haven't been problematic.

You are not required to like him or even believe him.

However, if you wish to rebut him- well, for that, evidence is necessary. You have not provided any.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

172. If You Say So

.

[AtheistCrusader]

135. So, tell us what you do for a living, or what it is about you that has led you to encounter dozens

of CC'ing people in, what you seem to be suggesting, is a negative context. I, for one, doubt the veracity of your claim, unless you happen to be a MP, or police officer. And in that case, you have a significant bias in that you are only called to the scene to deal with problematic CC'ing people (Who I will admit, DO exist), and not to interact with the millions that have CPL's that don't get the cops called on them every day.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

173. Wish I Could

Cannot discuss nature of my employment. Against employment policy.

Believe or Dismiss what you like...I know it's open season for sarcastic ridicule from the peanut gallery but could care less. Surprise me.

[Marengo]

165. What do you do for a living?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

175. See Thread

.

[Marengo]

188. Oh, yes, of course...a secret squirrel of one species or another

"Cannot discuss nature of my employment. Against employment policy."



Sorry, not buying it.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

193. Could Care Less

It's not your life or livlihood on the line.

And a reasonable person would respect that.

Disagree with my opinion ....no problem.
Disagree with something you have no first hand knowledge.....petty and small.

I'm not going to show you my Birth Certificate either, but will share with you Hawaii isn't on it.

[Marengo]

230. I doubt your "life or livlihood" would be "on the line"

Were you to reveal your line of work.

[friendly_iconoclast]

231. His credibility might. Put him with the "remote sensors" who claim to "know"...

...what people they don't know and have never met are really like...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

232. Of Course You Have Your Doubts

You simply don't know....and I could care less what you think or know.

[Llewlladdwr]

77. Was McCall drinking? NT

[friendly_iconoclast]

81. Not relevant. McCall walked in off the street for the express purpose of shooting Hickok.

I rather doubt a law prohibiting guns in bars would have much effect on someone willing to commit such a murder in front of witnesses...

[Trunk Monkey]

97. I expect that one would have turned out the same no matter where McCall saw Hickock. NT

[PavePusher]

145. Yeah, those Law Abiding LEO's....

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/more-pima-county-jail-workers-fired-after-bar-fight/article_62ea966e-08cb-11e2-a7fc-0019bb2963f4.html

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/19657628/minnesota-trooper-arrested-for-dui-at-duluth-office

http://chicagomaroon.com/2012/05/25/two-years-after-beatings-grad-student-and-alum-await-closure/

http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/02/29/44295.htm

See, this is how you cite to evidence. It's easy, if you try.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

159. Thanks for the Supporting Documentation

I see how important supporting my argument is to you and I appreciate it.

[PavePusher]

166. Yeah, I was being a bit snarky there, mea culpa.

Have a good night!

[Clames]

23. You could.

Or anyone else for that matter. What? You have a problem with being proactive? I see, continue to complain over nothing then.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

26. Proactive?

So you do support reasonable proactive gun control laws?

[Clames]

27. So do you actually read what is written? Ever?

I support reasonable laws. Yours fail that metric by a vast margin. National CCW permitting? Sure.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

28. What Law You Say I Support 'Fails that Metric'?

.

[Clames]

45. Just the usual and predictable Brady Campaign/MAIG/VPC ones.

n/t

[fightthegoodfightnow]

48. Right

Nothing specific ....just what laws you imagine I support.

[Clames]

73. Don't need to be specific.

You are a know quantity, transparent and obvious.

[Trunk Monkey]

38. Apparently in the last 136 YEARS it hasn't happened enough to be a problem. NT

[fightthegoodfightnow]

39. LOL

Right because all of those folks carrying conceiled loaded guns to security checkpoints in post 9/11 who FORGOT they were carrying present no threat due to their ignorance. Imagine the ones who haven't forgotten!

Your historical revisionism of gun history is sad.

[friendly_iconoclast]

44. It's *not* the people "who FORGOT they were carrying" who present a threat, or hadn't you noticed?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

50. Right....

....just the ones that accidentally go off regardless.

[Trunk Monkey]

83. As has been pointed out previously, you are moving the goal posts

We're not discussing folks carrying a firearm to an airport security checkpoint I agree with you that's unconscionable, how in the hell could you not remember you're carrying a gun?

We were discussing carrying a firearm in a place where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises (IOW a bar) and how making it legal in Ohio so long as the carrier doesn't drink hasn't caused near the problems antis said it would a year ago.

We were also discussing that such has never been illegal in Colorado and doesn't seem to generate much problem here either.

So, please provide evidence that just because I have a gun in my pocket in close proximity to alcohol endangers you

[PavePusher]

144. Continued dodging. Please cite evidence indicating an existing problem. n/t

[fightthegoodfightnow]

160. You Did That

Thanks

[Warren Stupidity]

55. Once again illustrating that for the gunz peeples there is no place

That is inappropriate to be armed. It's gunz everywhere.

[friendly_iconoclast]

64. Is the price of straw going up in your area?

Because that strawman was rather weak...

[Warren Stupidity]

68. GunZombies: what do we want? gunz!

When do we want it? gunz!

[holdencaufield]

78. Oh I get it ...

... you're implying that people who own firearms are too stupid to perform a chant.

That's highly amusing.

[friendly_iconoclast]

80. If insults keep them warm at night, I say "more power to them".

I'd rather be on the winning side of history...

[holdencaufield]

82. We have to respect the fact ...

... that they are bringing all they have to bring -- the intellectual widow's mite.

[struggle4progress]

72. "... The impact is difficult to assess ... because law-enforcement and state agencies

do not ... track violations involving guns in bars ..."

from the OP

[gejohnston]

74. hard to track if

they are not called. I'm guessing that would fall in the suspended or revoked statistics. How many shoot outs do you read about in bars?

[glacierbay]

85. It's not tracked because it's not a big problem

Very few times have I responded to a call of a person in a bar with a gun, which, in my state/city, is still illegal, the bartenders/owners usually takes care of the situation themselves w/o LEO intervention.
Bar owners usually don't like uniformed cops coming into their establishments, bad for business and all.

[struggle4progress]

88. Fights and gunfights occur regularly at bars nationwide

[glacierbay]

89. Fist fights, yes, gun fights, no.

Fist fights are usually taken care of by the bouncers/security, LEO is generally not called unless shots are fired or the fight moves outside and a civilian calls us.
I work in a fair sized city in MO, and we generally don't get called to a bar fight unless it spills outside, now shootings are a different thing and that doesn't happen as often as you are portraying.

[struggle4progress]

91. Police say woman, 2 men wounded in shooting outside west Phoenix bar by 2 men who escaped

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
September 23, 2012 - 2:51 pm EDT
... Crump says two men assaulted a woman inside the MVP sports bar on 43rd Avenue near Bethany Home road at about 1 a.m. Sunday. The men were ejected but returned a few minutes later and began shooting at a group of people outside ... The three people who were shot were hospitalized ... http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/4a4e3b1bdf7d4efe8cb7f274646296a5/AZ--Phoenix-Three-Shot

[ileus]

124. Were these legal concealed carriers?

[PavePusher]

147. So, one incident over what time frame and geo-spatial area? n/t

[struggle4progress]

92. Arrest made in killing outside Chester bar

September 26, 2012|By Mari A. Schaefer, INQUIRER STAFF WRITER
... Police said an argument that began inside the bar spilled outside and gunfire erupted. Martin was shot once in the chest. He was pronounced dead at Crozer Chester Medical Center ...
http://articles.philly.com/2012-09-26/news/34083446_1_chester-bar-kerlin-streets-chester-police

[ileus]

125. legal ccer's?

[struggle4progress]

93. 2 wounded in shooting in Arlington bar's parking lot

Posted Saturday, Sep. 29, 2012
ARLINGTON -- Two men were shot outside an Arlington bar early Saturday after a fight spilled into the parking lot ... http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/09/29/4298539/briefs.html

[ileus]

126. legal carriers?

[struggle4progress]

95. Two shot outside South Haven bar

By Erin Guerra
Post-Tribune correspondent
September 21, 2012 4:04PM
Updated: September 22, 2012 1:25PM
SOUTH HAVEN — Two people were shot in a drunken disturbance early Friday outside the Sportsmans Lounge, at 381 W. U.S. 6 ... Jeannette L. Gibbs, 46, of Davenport, Iowa, allegedly pulled a gun and shot Phillip Crowder, 37, of South Haven, in the leg after he walked her to a vehicle at about 2:13 a.m. ... Bar patrons inside said Crowder had danced with and kissed more than one woman before leaving the bar with Gibbs. A bartender told police Crowder had approximately five beers and at least two shots of liquor before the incident ... http://posttrib.suntimes.com/news/porter/15295160-418/two-shot-outside-south-haven-bar.html

[ileus]

127. legal carriers?

[struggle4progress]

96. Charleston bar closes following weekend shooting

September 23, 2012
Mayor supports ABCA decision to pull Sky Lounge liquor license
... Police responded to the shooting at about 2:25 a.m. Saturday morning to find three people shot. Police say an argument inside the bar escalated when the three were escorted outside. Once outside, an unknown person began to shoot. Two people -- Shawn Williams, 23, and Varryl Venson, 44, both of Charleston -- were shot while inside the bar. A third, William Wallace, 34, of South Charleston, was shot in the street. The shooter also was seen shooting into the ground at the back entrance of the bar, according to police ... http://wvgazette.com/News/201209230068

[ileus]

128. were the legal carriers?

[struggle4progress]

98. Authorities: Flagler Beach woman fires shot when friend won't leave bar

By Julie Murphy
Staff writer
Published: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 at 10:02 a.m.
Last Modified: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 at 10:02 a.m.
FLAGLER BEACH — A Flagler Beach woman is accused of firing a shot outside of a State Road A1A bar, upset because she was ready to leave but her friend wasn't, said Police Chief Dan Cody. Flagler Beach Police arrested Maureen Eleanor Witkowski, 38, Tuesday at the Lazy Pelican, 2444 S. State Road A1A, after investigating a complaint about the gunfire. “One shot was fired about 9:40 p.m.,” Cody said by phone. “The suspect was outside, but she went inside (the bar) when officers arrived” ... http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20120912/NEWS/120919922?Title=Flagler-Beach-woman-fires-shot-when-friend-won-8217-t-leave-bar-&tc=ar

[ileus]

129. legal carriers can't drink.

[struggle4progress]

100. Shooting outside South Bend bar leaves 1 dead, 1 injured

By Judi Lykowski [email protected]
Story Created: Sep 9, 2012 at 8:28 PM EDT
Story Updated: Sep 12, 2012 at 10:30 PM EDT
SOUTH BEND, Ind. - Police were called to the Anchor Inn right before the bar closed Sunday on a call that two men were shot. Family members of the man who died from his injuries tell ABC 57 that the bar's deejay got into a verbal dispute over music and the jukebox and they stepped outside and that's when the argument turned physical ... http://www.abc57.com/home/top-stories/Shooting-outside-South-Bend-bar-leaves-one-dead-and-one-injured-169116326.html

[glacierbay]

103. Hahaahahahahahaha

You do realize that you just proved my point, I said that fist fights are frequent in bars, shootings aren't, we don't usually get called for a fist fight in a bar, the bouncers/security take care of it, unless of course it spills outside and then we get called.

Thank you for proving my point.
BTW, what LAW is going to stop someone from taking a gun into a bar? I suppose you could put a sign up and the criminals will obey it, right?

[struggle4progress]

104. And I said: "gunfights occur regularly at bars nationwide" -- which is also true

The point, of prohibiting guns in bars, is that people, under the influence of alcohol, are less inhibited, hence more likely to engage in fights of any sort and in particular more likely to pull the trigger. The reasoning does not suddenly become invalid, just because everyone steps outside of the bar. A fight inside a bar that ends as a shooting outside, at the doorway or in the parking lot, is still a shooting at that bar, though the owners may have somewhat reduced or even eliminated their liability by telling folk to get out. The problem is the combination of alcohol and firearm.

[glacierbay]

108. The problem is not people with ccw drinking and carrying

the problem is the criminal illegally carrying a gun into a bar and then drinking.
And your parsing of words is ridiculous, everyone here knows exactly what you meant and when you were called on it, you did the shuffle and dance.
Guns at bars usually means guns in bars, your explanation is bogus. Someone with a gun outside of a bar is not someone with a gun at a bar, it's outside the bar.
No law is going to stop someone from taking a gun into a bar, period. If someone wants to break the law, then nothing short of being incarcerated or dead is going to stop them.

[ileus]

131. were any of these cases legal carriers?

[struggle4progress]

101. "Let's take our guns with us so we can be safe. Then we can get drunk and get into a fight

about whether the music on the jukebox sucks, or whether you kissed too many other people, or whether it's time for us to leave yet, or whatever. Finally, we can step outside and put bullet holes in somebody! It'll be real fun!"

[ileus]

132. one can't drink and legally carry.

[Trunk Monkey]

94. AT bars I'll agree with IN bars is pretty rare around here

and when it does happen it's almost never a CHP holder.

Generally the types of bars that draw that crowd have security check points and metal detectors at each entrance and what usually happens is two thug life types get to throwing chingasos, it moves to the parking lot and someone goes to their car to get an (usually) illegal gun and then they get their ass arrested.

This is based on my experience as a licensed security officer working in the downtown bar district ( South Tejon street) in Co Springs

[Eleanors38]

99. Any evidence "gunfights occur regularly at bars" Please use data/stats. Thanx

[struggle4progress]

105. Without any difficulty, I located three separate news stories from the last week in September,

describing cases in which verifiable disputes between bar patrons resulting in shots fired. There were, of course, many other cases during that period, for which less information was available

[glacierbay]

109. Those were not shooting at bars

they were outside of the bar. When I write a report, I don't write that the shooting took place at_____________ bar, unless of course, it happened in the bar, I write the shooting took place on _______________street outside of____________________bar. You got called on your stories and now you're trying to parse the words.

[struggle4progress]

117. All the stories involve bar patrons squabbling and shooting

[glacierbay]

121. That's irrelevant

it's not at the bar, it's outside the bar, they may have been in the bar before the shooting, but it happened outside, which is what I would write in my report. Shootings inside bars by CC permitted citizens are very rare, or for that matter, outside of a bar.
The three incidents you provided, how many were permitted citizens?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

200. Worth Repeating

All the stories involve bar patrons squabbling and shooting.

Alcohol and driving do not mix well.
Alcohol and guns do not mix well.

Common Sense?

[glacierbay]

204. And I will ask you the same question

were any of those shooters CC permitted? I highly doubt it, it would have been plastered all over the story.
By and far, citizens with CC permits aren't the problem in bars, restaurants, public, it's the criminal who is the problem who doesn't care about laws.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

205. Huh

Are you really saying that none of them could get a CC permit prior to the shooting each was involved in?

[glacierbay]

206. That's not what I said or even inferred

I asked how many of the shooters had a CC permit? My point being that the vast majority of citizens who apply for and take the time to go through the process to acquire the permit won't be drinking while carrying.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

207. Vast Majority?

Is that why you have a gun.... To protect yourself from the vast majority?

Right, you didn't say that.

Fact is that any of those shootings could have been by a CC permit holder. Heck, forget about CC permit holders. They all got drunk, presumably had a permit for their gun and shot someone while intoxicated with a permit. We need guns in bars like we need a hole in the head.... Oh right, they do that too.

[glacierbay]

208. But those shootings weren't done by CC permitted citizens

if any of them had a permit, it would have been in the story. Very few states require a permit to purchase a firearm, and I'll say it again from my experience, the vast majority of citizens who go through the process to obtain a CC permit are lawful, levelheaded people who won't be drinking while carrying.
I carry a gun because it is a condition of my employment and also, it's to protect me from the vast majority of criminals.

Off the job, I don't carry at all unless I'm hunting.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

210. What Jurisdiction Requires Any Government Employee to Carry a Gun in a Bar?

.

[glacierbay]

212. That's easy

any LEO that's on the job.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

213. Your Choice

....as it is to drink.

Guns and alcohol don't mix and I'm sure you agree.

[glacierbay]

214. It's not a choice on whether or not to carry a gun while on the job.

All LE agencies require it, there is no LE agency that will let an officer take off his gun while investigating a complaint, no matter where it may occur.
And I do agree that if you're drinking, you shouldn't be carrying, but the incidents of that happening with CC permitted citizens is miniscule.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

216. Choice

No one implied your job choice is without sacrifice.

[glacierbay]

217. But I don't feel there is a sacrifice

I don't have a choice on whether or not I carry a gun while on the job, even if I had a choice, I would most definitely carry a gun on the job, it would be suicide for any American Police Officer to be unarmed while on street patrol.
Now I do have the choice on whether or not to carry off duty, which I am allowed to per our regs., but I choose not to, because I have to carry 4 days a week, 10 hours a day and I consider my days off to be my own to spend with my family.

BTW, I'm on vacation for 4 weeks and my gun is locked up in my safe until I have to report back.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

211. Guns and Bars

Heck, forget about CC permit holders. They all got drunk, presumably had a permit for their gun and shot someone while intoxicated with a permit. We need guns in bars like we need a hole in the head.

[friendly_iconoclast]

222. So far, your objections to the practice have amounted to so much shouting and handwaving.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

223. Pot...Kettle

Stick to talking about guns......rather than your disdain for my posts.

Try keeping on topic.

Heck, forget about CC permit holders. They all got drunk, presumably had a permit for their gun and shot someone while intoxicated with a permit. We need guns in bars like we need a hole in the head.

[friendly_iconoclast]

225. Unless and until you can show it's a problem, your objections will remain more a matter of taste...

...than sound policy advice. The default position in an allegedly free society should always be on the side of leniency, unless there is a demonstrated public threat.
Claims of "I know for a fact it's a problem, but I can't reveal my sources. Trust me!" just don't cut it...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

226. They are Dead - Shot by Drunks with Guns Outside a Bar

That's not a problem?

PS- you don't know jack about me or my employment. That's what I claimed and so very true. Spin that into something else and maybe it's not me with the problem. Find the quote you attribute to me. You won't.

[friendly_iconoclast]

138. All but one of the stories you posted happened OUTSIDE bars. Didya think we wouldn't notice?

And there was no evidence that the shooter(s) were legal carriers (a detail that would no doubt be trumpeted if it were so).

It's not as if we haven't seen these tactics before- I got pretty much the same reaction when I asked if there was any empirical evidence that
allowing students with carry permits to have concealed weapons on college campuses was a bad idea:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x382537

What *empirical* evidence do you have that legal CCW weapons at colleges are harmful?

And, yes, in this instance I am looking for confirmable media accounts.

P.S.: I'm going to set the over/under on the first appearance of an account of illegal gun carriage/use passed
off as legal carriage/use at the twentieth post. The pearl claspers seem to be fond of faith-promoting rumor,
and I expect an account of a 'legal' gun owner (who actually wasn't) doing something stupid and/or criminal to
appear in short order. Let's see how long that takes, shall we?

I note that like some of those posting on that thread, you counted incidents that didn't happen in the places you were 'concerened' about...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

209. Outside or Inside

Seriously?

As for whether or not they have a permit (concealed or not ) to carry a gun, lets let everyone have carry guns in bars! Heck, would it invade their privacy or constitutional rights to ask to see that permit before entering that bar......I can just hear the NRA.

So basically, it doesn't matter if you have a permit (concealed or otherwise). Guns kill. Inside. Outside. Permit holder. No permit holder.

What a joke. Alcohol and guns are irresponsible. Guns have one singular purpose...to kill.

[Eleanors38]

148. But no data for the "many other cases." It helps if there are surveys; guess you don't have 'em. nt

[PavePusher]

146. Got stats for that?

What do you mean by "regularly"? I can assure you it's pretty infrequent at the bars I go to. Including one of the craziest in town.

[AtheistCrusader]

136. They don't need to track it. CPL permit revocation is automatically tracked.

And automatically occurs when someone is convicted of a felony, of which, discharging a firearm, while drunk/disorderly, in a bar, most certainly leads to.

[trouble.smith]

84. It's not as if anyone ever has to defend their life in a bar or anything.

[Walk away]

102. Wow! Even in Santa Marta Columbia S.A. you have to check your guns at the door of the bar!

Way to "Out 3rd World" the 3rd World!!!

[friendly_iconoclast]

139. You don't have to in Massachusetts or Vermont. Does that make us part of the "3rd World"?

Do tell!

[friendly_iconoclast]

215. I guess they found that question inconvenient...

[bongbong]

107. Lovely little Delicate Flowers

It's hilarious, but pathetic, how the posts in this thread proving that guns & bars don't mix (the cases cited in posts numbered in the 90s) are ignored by all the Delicate Flowers.

Guns. They give the Delicate Flowers enough courage to face the outside world!

[fightthegoodfightnow]

194. Should a Private Bar Owner Have to Serve an Armed Guest of their Establishment?

.

[4th law of robotics]

196. If you own the property you can set whatever rules you like

although I suppose you cannot discriminate based on race and other factors.

However private property owners can prevent anyone from legally carrying on their property.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

199. Many Gun Advocates Disagree

They have embarked on a campaign to ram guns down the throats over the objection of private property owners who do not want guns in their establishment as a business decision to protect their patrons.

[4th law of robotics]

219. There are gun advocates literally ramming guns down your throat?

Wow. You should call the cops.

And could you find these "many" gun control advocates who support making it illegal for private property owners to do as they wish with their private property?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

220. Huh?

I get the sarcasm of your first sentence and dismiss it for what it is.

Your second sentence simply doesn't make sense.

Are you suggesting that I don't have a right to keep you off my property until you remove your gun?

When exactly did civilization return to the 'wild West'?

[friendly_iconoclast]

224. His second sentence made sense- your assertion that led to it did not:

I quote:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=76899

They have embarked on a campaign to ram guns down the throats over the objection of private property owners who do not want guns in their establishment as a business decision to protect their patrons.

They have pointed out that they will boycott busines owners that ban legal carry, which is just as acceptable as others boycotting Starbucks because they don't ban legal carry.
If you don't like places that don't ban legal CCW carriage, all I can say is- Follow your own advice:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=77128

THEN DON'T GO THERE

Sauce for goose, meet gander...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

227. So You Agree!

Works for Me.

Don't go to any place that bans guns if you want to carry a gun!!!!!!

AGREEMENT!

[4th law of robotics]

228. You have every right to keep anyone from doing whatever

on your property.

Who has said otherwise?