Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumDeputies shoot, kill man after knocking on wrong door
Here we have a stickler. Cops knock on the door but do not identify themselves. Resident answers door with gun in hand pointed in the direction of the officers. The officers open fire and kill the man. The only problem is they have the wrong house and the wrong man. How are we going to deal with this one.
"When we knocked on the door, the door opened and the occupant of that apartment was pointing a gun at deputies and that's when we opened fire and killed him," Lt. John Herrell said.
Deputies thought they were confronting Jonathan Brown, a man accused of attempted murder. Brown was spotted at the Blueberry Hills Apartment complex and his motorcycle was parked across from Andrew Scott's front door.
"It's just a bizarre set of circumstances. The bottom line is, you point a gun at a deputy sheriff or police office, you're going to get shot," Herrell said.
Residents said the unannounced knock at the door at 1:30 a.m. may be the reason why the tragedy happened.
"He was the wrong guy and he got shot and killed anyway. There's fault on both sides. I think more so on the county," Ryan Perry said. "I can understand why he [the deputy] did it, but it should have never gone down like that," Perry said.
***COPS KILL INNOCENT MAN AT LINK***
Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/Deputies-shoot-kill-man-after-knocking-on-wrong-door/-/11788162/15527202/-/euk6tg/-/index.html#ixzz20nwRf7uA
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)If the person at the door had been a black teenagers who needed help and the guy shot him, the killer would be a conservative hero.
Meiko
(1,076 posts)the REAL story doesn't fit your agenda so you post what if's instead and try to disrupt the thread.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)what the fuck you're talking about. What, pray tell, is my "agenda" and how have I disrupted the thread?
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)running white 14 year old, they would be Hoyt's hero, so what's your point?
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)gejohnston
(17,502 posts)You might have missed mine.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)The other turns the knob.
Meiko
(1,076 posts)kind of neighborhood you live in I guess.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)The other hand polishes... naaaaaah, never mind.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)At most, we know that (1) the cops went to wrong door, (2) they shot an innocent man, (3) the man was a gun owner, and (4) the cops say (but apparently without corroboration of any independent witness) that he pointed a gun at them.
The guy is dead. He's not saying anything.
The cops say that he pointed a gun at them.
Is this likely? Probably not. But he did own a gun and he's no longer alive to contradict their story.
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)Guy inside the house shot no-one.
What part of "early morning hours" didn't you comprehend? I sure as hell would be suspicious of a knock at my door at "early morning hours".
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)Are you afraid of the dark, too?
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)Who answers the door with a gun in their hand? Never mind. Forgot where I was.
razorman
(1,644 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)Meiko
(1,076 posts)identify themselves.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)... would have made sense. Don't know if the door had a peep-hole.
I hear it time and again around these parts that a gun is a tool and not some magic shield inoculating the owner against all the evils in the world.
Seems to me, the decedent believed his gun inoculated him against ANYTHING on the other side of the door. Clearly he was wrong.
Even if you are 99% sure there is a bad guy on the other side of the door, why open it and expose yourself? Not knowing what is on the other side of the door you felt the need to answer with a gun in hand is plain stupid. In this case there really WAS someone on the other side with a weapon(s) pointed at the door and he walked right in to it. They had the drop on him as would any potential bad guy.
If you are so paranoid, concerned, or fearful of who is pounding on your door in the middle of the night, the LAST thing you should do is open in without ascertaining what or who is there. Gun or no gun.
Carrying a weapon is a big responsibility. That responsibility includes not brandishing at unknown people. Even on your own doorstep.
permatex
(1,299 posts)Let's blame the dead innocent gun owner, not the cops who fucked up royally.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)Does Florida have a brandishing law?
I'll repeat what I said down-thread:
If and when this ends up in a wrongful death case, I wouldn't be opposed to a settlement/judgment based on partial negligence by the cops and partial blame on the victim. A criminal charge against the cops? No.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)It is a felony IIRC. Although I don't know if that covers this.
permatex
(1,299 posts)good reason. It seems your trying to excuse the cops. If I'm wrong, then I'm sorry.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)permatex
(1,299 posts)All in all, it was an avoidable tragedy.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)I was working in a lab on campus, but there was no way to see out the window. I heard pounding on the door and loud voices yelling "let us in". And I asked who it was and they said "let us in!!!".
Finally I said, "I'm not letting you in if I don't know who you are" (cue the Brady Bunch episode...)
Then they finally said they were the police and I opened the door --unarmed of course.
I couldn't believe the interaction.
Like a lot of grad students, I had no choice but to work late on campus, I had a pass to be there at night a key to the building, I was an employee of the university too, the campus police had a list of people authorized to be in that room after hours and I was on it, etc. etc.
The experience rattled me, the way they acted made it seem like something was seriously wrong.
For the first time, it made me feel less safe when they were around, whereas before that, I felt some comfort knowing they were on patrol at night there. Afterwards, a small part of my mind made me just a little weary thinking, "jeez, they treated me like I was a criminal, am I really safer if they think I am one?"
And my last school advisor, at the previous school, where also had to work overnight, and we had permission, were on lists, yadda yadda, but the head of the department warned us,
"you have permission to use this room at night, that's why you're given keys and you're on a list with the campus police"
"but sometimes our students are treated badly by the police, if that happens, remember not to argue with people that have guns."
it's a shame. because these interactions reduce the chances that a student working late at night who sees something odd or out of place, will contact the police. it's counterproductive.
and the other shame of it is that i know police officers, who are nothing like this, and these interactions make their jobs harder, even though they are great people, often quiet and unassuming.
i think some paramilitary emphasis and outlook amongst some officers is inappropriate in a civilian setting, but it is becoming more and more common.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)... over my neighbor's faulty burglar alarm she refuses to have repaired.
They have been mostly friendly but I fear for my dog as we share a common condo yard and I'm afraid some trigger happy asshole will shoot my dog for barking at them. My dog doesn't (hasn't) bite, but being a Shar Pei mix, she likes to challenge.
I've answered the cops on at least 3 occasions in the last year.
Once to let them in while I turned the alarm off (I have a key). They went through the house guns drawn even though I told them the alarm was broken. Funny story: The cops asked me to look in the condo to tell them if the place was robbed or the people "live this way" - meaning messy. Her boyfriend left the video game junk and controllers all over the floor. LOL
Another time I was surprised by four coppers coming around the back gate. I was carrying an 80 pound bag of concrete on my shoulder for my un-permitted bathroom renovation. "Doing a little work?" they asked. "Uh oh, I'm fucked. Since when do cops check permits?" I thought. Nope. They were there for THE ALARM. I scurried in to the basement pulling doors and gates shut behind me.
The last time the cop was frantically hitting all the buzzers in the building. I went down to see what the fuss was. THE ALARM again. I let him in and he proceeded to pound on her door. She was home. He made some weird comment that he busses all the buzzers because sometimes neighbors rob each other - whatever THAT means. My neighbor had the nerve to complain later that the cop was rude to her.
We really need to have a word with her before something bad happens.
razorman
(1,644 posts)If I get an unexpected late-night knock on the door, I will be armed while answering it, too. I don't think I would be foolish enough to point it, though. At least not until a threat had been identified.
Spoonman
(1,761 posts)At 1:30 in the morning, everyone with any brains!
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)Or even a peek through the window will work.
Callisto32
(2,997 posts)Easy-peasy.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)Clames
(2,038 posts)...from the door by the resident. Lots of assumptions and no real thinking involved.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)I didn't say peep hole. So not much reading OR thinking on your part.
You know, the window right next door to the door. Again, you appear to be a little slow on the uptake so I will cut you some slack. It was in the video.
Final clue. I've never known cops to go on a raid without at least badges around neck in the event they are P/C. Most likely they would have jackets. So let's deal in reality here.
The nice thing about DU3 is you have unlimited time to edit your post or delete your post or removes your "eyes" smiley as to not look the fool in perpetuity. Your call.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)No they don't. Most plain clothes I have seen here open carry their pistols with the badge on their belts. St Petersburg cops, last time I was there, will have green T shirts that say "police".
Oh, then there is Laval, Quebec
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Parasiris
Clames
(2,038 posts)...and you'll keep looking like you don't have a clue..
What makes you think there was a window near the door? This is an apartment, not a house remember. Most apartment the door opens onto a breezeway adjoining the other apartments so there isn't a window at all near the door. Good thing you are aware of the editing function because you have a lot of work to do...
Reality. Keep looking for it.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)You can see in to the unit when the door opens.
See the unit number next to the door? See how it doesn't say "unit 114 through ..... something"? No, it says unit 114.
See the little fenced in patio the units have? Yes?
Friendly advice: Stop digging
KansDem
(28,498 posts)http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/29/killed_at_home_white_plains_ny
mvccd1000
(1,534 posts)It's stories like these that give police a bad reputation. (Well-deserved, for the particular officers in this instance: create a situation, escalate it, and then become "judge, jury, and executioner." Wonder where George Zimmerman learned his tactics?)
razorman
(1,644 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)i guess the crime rate in one's neighborhood may also dictate how one answers an unsolicited knock at the door at 0130.
ileus
(15,396 posts)always answer the door with your pistol behind your back....You never know when it's gonna be a cop or the COO of your wife's clinic.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)but the guy didn't do that, he didn't know who was at the door.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)But that's just me.
cpamomfromtexas
(1,245 posts)sarisataka
(18,646 posts)when they arrest protesters writing on the side walk with chalk but...
they knock on a door because of a motorcycle parked in front of it, not identifying themselves, and then shoot the occupant to death and that is ok.
After all it was the victims fault for carrying a gun when answering the door when someone was pounding on it at 1:30.
Before the police-apologists start screaming how do I know they pounded. I can relate from experience.
Several years ago I lived in an apartment and someone called reporting a woman screaming. I was woken by a pounding that shook the whole wall of the apartment. I went to the door, with a gun, and looked out the peephole. I could see no one but did notice a shadow on the floor.
Here is where I deviated from the person in the story..
I asked who was out there and only then did they identify themselves as police. I opened the door, chain in place to check the id. There were two officers, out of sight on each side of the door. Once identified, I let them in, but first I placed the pistol on a table four feet from the door and after opening the door informed the officers where it was and that it was loaded.
One officer asked if I always answer my door with a loaded gun.
"When someone is pounding on my door in the middle of the night I do"
His partner replied, "Can't argue with that"
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)It is a very unfortunate accident. Tragic accidents such as this usually require more than one fuck up to lead to such a dreadful outcome.
If and when this ends up in a wrongful death case, I wouldn't be opposed to a settlement/judgment based on partial negligence by the cops and partial blame on the victim. A criminal charge against the cops? No.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)being accepted as true without any independent witnesses or other evidence.
sarisataka
(18,646 posts)"if you are so paranoid to go to the door with a gun you can expect to be shot"... begging the question are you actually paranoid?
I do not disagree, answering the door by pointing a gun out it is a very bad idea.
And to play devil's advocate I will compare this to an on-going case where we have a shooter's side to the story and the other side is dead so cannot contradict. I am not calling for an indictment but believe this case is worthy of independent investigation.
spin
(17,493 posts)I answer the door with a snub nosed revolver in my pocket and my hand on it.
If you use a much larger handgun such as a .45 auto, you cover the weapon with a newspaper or a magazine when you open the door. If you allow the person to enter, you just lay the weapon on a table with with newspaper covering it.
I've used both techniques and never scared anyone who knocked at my door. That includes two times when the police were on the other side.
Obviously answering a knock with a visible weapon in your hand is a poor idea. Being prepared for a potential home invasion will rarely prove necessary but if it is and you are prepared you might survive with out injury or avoid ending up in a grave.
permatex
(1,299 posts)If there is a knock on my door late night/early morning, I'll go to the door with a gun but I won't answer it until I see some credentials, if it's LE, I'll first put my gun in a nightstand we have in our entranceway and then open the door but keep the storm door closed and locked, if it's anyone else that I don't know, the door stays closed and locked and 911 will be called.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)It was over one of the holidays, Christmas day I think, and everyone in the building was gone but me and the boyfriend.
We heard a loud bang and what sounded like footsteps in our downstairs neighbor's condo. I have keys to all the units - We're a pretty tight-nit condo and we are all friends - so we investigated that unit and the one directly below (it's a six flat).
Didn't feel the need to call the police but we (and the dog) checked it out. I left the gun under the towel in case someone came home early or whatever - didn't want to scare the shit out of anyone.
sarisataka
(18,646 posts)When checking a knock or bump in the night.
My fat old wiener dog is not a threat to anyone but his nose and bark still work fine.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)My Shar Pei mix is pretty tough lookin' and she LOVES to go on "missions" whether ii be chasing off squirrels or investigating a noise. She'll take the lead and let out a low 'woof' as sort of a challenge.
She's only about 45lbs. but she has a square head so she can seem pitbull-ish to some people.
Last year, she scared the piss out my neighbor's visiting boyfriend. He's a Vegas cop - a big burly guy. I was on the third floor trying to warn him the dog was in the yard and to not worry but he had an I-Pod on and couldn't hear me and didn't look up to see me waving my arms. He opened the back gate and saw her barreling down the sidewalk. He slammed the gate shut REAL fast and then stood there with a 'now what the f-ck do I do?' look. After he finally looked up and I told him it was OK he was like 'nice guard dog!'
sarisataka
(18,646 posts)that is why they are stubborn and can be hard to train. They are also very loyal and afraid of nothing.
Nice sweetie you have there
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)If you are going to keep a gun for home defense you need to learn more than just how to shoot it. You need to learn how not to accidentally scare people with it.
Have a peephole in the door and a light outside the door that is controlled from inside.
Look through the peephole first.
If you then decide to open the door have the gun out of sight.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)are looking out. I think it goes back to a movie I saw when young called something like "Horrors of the Black Museum." This guy looks into a pair of binoculars that have been rigged with spring loaded prongs that poked his eye out. Don't look through holes in the fence at baseball fields either.
But, I guess if you look quickly.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)but have the outside lights on.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Besides, you can solve the light problem by having the inside light off if it really worries you.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)permatex
(1,299 posts)say, a can of beans or a bicycle tire.
You don't like concealed carry, we get it, but until laws are changed, and there is no indication that will happen anytime soon, learn to live with it and stop dithering over it.
Just some sound advice.
Tejas
(4,759 posts)And anti's are too busy crucifying law-abiding gunowners here at the DU and taunting them with labels such as "cowards" and "barrel-stroking freaks".
sarisataka
(18,646 posts)I am not worried about spring loaded prongs, although I like the idea, but if someone with very bad intentions is waiting to shoot through the door.
If you cannot avoid having light showing, then first stand to the side of the door and cover the hole with your hand for a few seconds. If nothing happens, go ahead and take a look.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)Not tied to a computer but to a dedicated screen in the main room.
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)Stop it with this common sense stuff.
Callisto32
(2,997 posts)burglar/robbers yelling "POLICE!"
How the hell is a decent person supposed to know who the hell is actually barging through his door unbidden in the middle of that not-so-good night?
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)an innocent man and, instead of using a "drop gun," searched his place, found a gun, and then used it as justification?
Are there any independent witnesses who can verify what the police said?
In the absence of independent witnesses, why would anyone believe the cops' version?
Meiko
(1,076 posts)cops cover for each other, this is a fact and since there are no other witnesses it would be very easy for them to make up the entire story. The shooting will be loosely investigated by other cops who are probably friends with the shooters...outcome? One innocent man dead and two murderers with badges walk free...works for me.
spin
(17,493 posts)I had my trusty .38 caliber snub nosed revolver in my pants pocket.
The officer never had any idea that I was armed.
bakpakr
(168 posts)Police are trained not to stand directly in-front of a door they are banging on due to the fact that some individuals will shoot through the door in an attempt to kill the officer. They are taught to stand to the side. Thus negating the peephole view.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts).... feels he needs a gun in hand to open the door. Besides, there is a window next to the door.
spin
(17,493 posts)When I lived in the Tampa Bay area the neighborhood I lived in was marginal at the best. When I bought the house it was an upscale area but 35 years later times had changed. I decided to wait until I retired before I sold my house.
I never really had any great fear in opening the door which in my case had no window next to it. However when someone banged on my door late at night, I liked to be careful. Consequently I had a snub nosed revolver in my pants pocket.
I never scared anyone who was knocking on my door but I would have had the ability to protect myself if truly necessary which while unlikely was not impossible.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)permatex
(1,299 posts)I can see my whole front porch and anything to the sides of it.
Tejas
(4,759 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I do have respect for law enforcement overall but it is getting ridiculous down here in FL