10 shot, 3 dead, on South and West sides (Gun free paradise of Chicago)

[shadowrider]

Three people died and seven others were wounded in shootings Friday night and Saturday morning on the South and West sides, police said.

Half of the people wounded were shot within blocks of 71st Street and Racine Avenue, on the south end of the Englewood neighborhood and north end of the Gresham neighborhood.

A 21-year-old woman was shot and killed on the 3900 block of West 19th Street in the Lawndale neighborhood about 4:33 a.m., police said. She was taken to Mount Sinai Hospital, where she was pronounced dead, police said. As of 6:10 a.m., the Cook County medical examiner's office was not notified of the death. Police didn't provide any other details about that shooting.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-man-shot-in-head-on-south-side-20120413,0,4044709.story

[orpupilofnature57]

1. So isn't the guy in Chicago ,thats what the NRA

doesn't acknowledge ,or recognize .If weeding out vipers like this will save Thousands from being victimized , we should step up background checks and penalties for illegal guns ,or were You thinking more Guns is the answer ?

[gejohnston]

2. we have background checks

Illinois has a licensing system, Chicago has a complete ban. Interstate sales without a federal license is against federal law. The answer is much more complex.

[orpupilofnature57]

3. I was responding to the parenthesized remark

Positively complicated , and I wouldn't presume too know the one of a million answers ,and I'm not for banning guns.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. 9 shot 4 dead in the gun paradise of New Hampshire over the last two days.

5 policemen shot, one dead in drug bust gone bad in Greenland. Shooter also dead.
2 people dead from gunshots in apparent murder/suicide in Dalton.
1 nine year old boy shot in head in Hollis, status unknown.

I'm sure you had a point about gun control, I just don't know what it was.

[pipoman]

16. I'm not sure what the OP had in mind

but for me it just reinforces the statistical evidence that gun laws and lawful possession rates have little to nothing to do with crime and violence.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. well possession rates, lawful or not, certainly have SOMETHING to do with GUN violence rates.

would the weapon of choice just be something else if the nation weren't wash in guns? Probably. But it is really hard to deny that the staggering number of guns in this country has something with the fact that there are so many gun crimes.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. re: "...possession rates...certainly have SOMETHING to do with GUN violence rates."

Less than 5% of the people in the world live here in the US. They own almost 40% of the world's firearms.
There isn't a respectful way to change that.

I also don't think those assaulted with knives or clubs feel better about that.
Those injured or killed with weapons other than firearms matter just a much and their assailants are just as anti-social.

[pipoman]

41. If your theory held true violence rates

with guns would increase incrementally with rises in gun numbers...they don't and haven't, they've actually gone down for quite a few years.

[beevul]

5. But...but...but...

(edited to make it current)

Chicagotribune is just a mouthpiece for gun lovers...and...and...PDFs are corrupted by the gun industry...and...and...bullet hoses...and...assault clips...and...theyre the choice of criminals and gangbangers...and the nra...and...and...50 bmg rifles will shoot down aircraft in flight...and are a danger to satellites...and...and...you love guns because your "lacking" below the waist...and...the nra...and...and...gun idolatry...and...yup...yup...and...lunatic asswipes...and...and...chuck norries TM...and...and...pistols in your pants...and...the nra...and...festooned with firearms...and...and...promenading publicly with guns...and...and...we need reasonable restrictions...and...republicans suck but republican paul helmke and sara brady are great...and...the nra...and...glock handguns aren't suited for hunting or self defense...and...and...FIFTY CALIBER TERROR...and...and...a well regulated militia...and...walter mitty wannabes...and...and...the nra...and...your all zimmermans...and...rude baser toters...and...a gun tucked in your pants...and...backlash...and...its virginias fault...and...long live mayor 1 percent...and...the gunnerhood...and...





I wonder if the gun control pushers hereabouts would like to talk to the people of Chicago, and explain why one of the last real strongholds of gun control...the shining beacon of gun control utopia...continues to fail them. Without shifting the blame.

My sympathies to the families of those killed.

[Turbineguy]

6. If a society wants to slide backwards into barbarism,

gun control laws are the last thing you need. Gun control is for a country that's moving up, not down.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. NYC real stronghold of gun control

Violent crime rates in both Chicago and NYC have been trending down for quite some time, as they have been nationally, independent of gun control policy or the lack thereof.

[beevul]

12. I wouldn't be holding up NYC as any shining example, if I were you.

Ever heard of Adrian Schoolcraft?

Meet Adrian Schoolcraft. Meet the Real NYPD.

Adrian Schoolcraft says he isn't exactly sure when, but at some point he had decided that it was important to document the orders that he was given that he thought were out of line. He recorded roll calls where officers were constantly being told to do more stop-and-frisks, even though it's illegal to stop a random person on the street and frisk them without reasonable suspicion. In December 2008, a sergeant tells officers to stop-and-frisk quote, "anybody walking around, no matter what the explanation is." He recorded Stephen Mauriello, the commander the 81st precinct-- and the person Adrian Schoolcraft says really brought the hammer down for higher numbers-- ordering the officers to arrest everyone they see. This happens in a couple of recordings, like this one from Halloween 2008.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/20/1075995/-Meet-Adrian-Schoolcraft-Meet-the-Real-NYPD-


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/414/transcript


The NYPD Tapes Confirmed

The report police hid for nearly two years that corroborates a Voice investigation — and vindicates a whistle-blower the NYPD tried to destroy




For more than two years, Adrian Schoolcraft secretly recorded every roll call at the 81st Precinct in Brooklyn and captured his superiors urging police officers to do two things in order to manipulate the "stats" that the department is under pressure to produce: Officers were told to arrest people who were doing little more than standing on the street, but they were also encouraged to disregard actual victims of serious crimes who wanted to file reports.

In October 2009, Schoolcraft met with NYPD investigators for three hours and detailed more than a dozen cases of crime reports being manipulated in the district. Three weeks after that meeting—which was supposed to have been kept secret from Schoolcraft's superiors—his precinct commander and a deputy chief ordered Schoolcraft to be dragged from his apartment and forced into the Jamaica Hospital psychiatric ward for six days.

In the wake of our series, NYPD commissioner Raymond Kelly ordered an investigation into Schoolcraft's claims. By June 2010, that investigation produced a report that the department has tried to keep secret for nearly two years.

The Voice has obtained that 95-page report, and it shows that the NYPD confirmed Schoolcraft's allegations. In other words, at the same time that police officials were attacking Schoolcraft's credibility, refusing to pay him, and serving him with administrative charges, the NYPD was sitting on a document that thoroughly vindicated his claims.


"When viewed in their totality, a disturbing pattern is prevalent and gives credence to the allegation that crimes are being improperly reported in order to avoid index-crime classifications," investigators concluded. "This trend is indicative of a concerted effort to deliberately underreport crime in the 81st Precinct."

http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-03-07/news/the-nypd-tapes-confirmed/

Read the entire article, and the background on it, and where the orders to underreport came from, then tell me if you REALLY think thats the only precinct this BS was happening in.

As to chicago...it remains a mystery how one of the few places that have nearly everything gun control supporters want, has so much more gun crime than so many places that dont - IF gun control really works.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. whatever. The point is that there is no data to substantiate claims for either side of this debate.

Crime rates have been trending down since the early 90s. That trend is independent of gun control policy. What is driving the numbers is a matter of debate, in general 'stat cooking' is not considered a serious factor.

[sarisataka]

36. So then what is the point of...

More gun control?

Crime rates have been trending down since the early 90s. That trend is independent of gun control policy.

By your admission gun control has not helped the crime rate either way so why do we need to increase controls? Is not that the usually stated goal, to reduce crime?

[DonP]

35. Gun crimes are up 60% over last year in Chicago

Violent crime might have been trending down for a while here, but for the first 3 months of 2012 gun crime and murders are up 60% over last year. That's not a statistical anomaly at that rate, and Summer is the highest crime period.

In the meantime ... Rahm is writing big ass checks to pay Alan Gura his the legal fees for losing the McDonald case and he's still fighting allowing the law abiding to own guns in their own homes. He is also refusing to meet with the police union to negotiate their contract and allowing the total number of police to decline through retirements. So you can't protect yourself and there won't be enough cops to help out either.

If anyone wants to know what the actual street cops and union members think, check out the 2nd citycop blog spot. It's run by street cops and the comment section will let you know how "highly" they think of Rahm's attitude toward gun crimes.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

8. Shining Beacon?

Why do you think gun controls are needed?

Right...you don't.

Rural non populated areas may not see gun violence. Urban areas often do.

Things in Chiago would be far worse without gun control.

[beevul]

13. Sheer speculation. Every single point.

"Why do you think gun controls are needed? Right...you don't."

Sheer speculation. Now tell me what I think of spaghetti, and where I stand on animal rescues, while your at it. I mean, if you're going to make things up out of whole cloth, why not, eh?

"Things in Chiago would be far worse without gun control."

Sheer speculation.

Do go ahead and list similar sized population centers with less gun control, and more gun problems.

We'll wait right here.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

42. Tell Me

...if things were SOOOOOO much better before gun control why is it the vast majority of those living in Chicago continue to support................gun control.

[gejohnston]

43. do they?

There are a number of reasons if they do. Assuming Chicago did not ban handguns, would these shooters apply for an Illinois FOID to buy one? Seriously?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

44. They Do.

Tell us why they support gun control.

[gejohnston]

45. perhaps for the same reason

too many in the working and middle class thought Bush was "one of us", too much Rush (not the band) or something like it. For the same reason most Faux viewers think Iraq had NBC weapons.
People listen to conventional wisdom without ever really examining it. Everyone is for gun control. Do they approve of the degree that that exists in Chicago.

So, are gangsters applying for FOIDs and buying their guns down state?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

46. Huh?

Is your point we need a national gun control policy?

[gejohnston]

48. We do

Federal law prohibits going across a state line to a gun store. Even if you get the ban, the gun trafficking routes will match the drug routes like they do in Europe. Before Nixon's WOD, the gangs could not afford guns, legal or not. They used tire chains, home made zip guns, and knives. This was also true of the Mafia before the Volstead Act. Remember, this was before Gun Control Act of 1968 (and could order one from a catalog and the gun comes to your house) and California's gun laws were not that much different than Wyoming's. What changed was the profits in the drug business, thanks to Dick's WOD. Best way to take away guns away from gangs is to take away their money.

[bowens43]

10. it hasn't failed them.

the federal government has failed them by not banning ALL handguns and ammunition.

If anything this is a strong argument to greatly expand gun control.
A total or near total ban on guns and ammunition is what is needed.

Your sympathies ? Seriously? LOL!

They don't need your sympathy, they need the fucking guns off the streets.

[beevul]

15. I wouldn't hold your breath.

You aren't going to get your gun ban.

"Banning them didn't work, so we have to ban them more, that will work."

I'm sure a federal ban would work almost as well as the federal ban on cocaine.

Yeah, thats it.

[Lizzie Poppet]

23. Seriously?!?

"A total or near total ban on guns and ammunition is what is needed."

You do realize that any serious attempt to enforce such a thing would end in massive civil unrest and violence, right?

[hack89]

27. To bad the government doesn't have the power to do that. nt

[shadowrider]

28. So you endorse a police state, do ya?

Unless of course all the cops lose their weapons too. Unless you don't want that.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

30. As far as I know...

...the feds don't own a national time machine. Next.

[rl6214]

37. "A total or near total ban on guns and ammunition is what is needed."

Shares?

Anything else you want while you are king for the day

[burf]

40. Those attempts at gun bans

worked out really well for Chicago and DC when the matters got to the Supreme Court. How much of the money that Chicago spent on attorneys could have been spent on getting more cops on the street or some other crime prevention?

[oneshooter]

49. And what laws would you propose to achieve your goals?

"A total or near total ban on guns and ammunition is what is needed."

[shadowrider]

51. You don't need no stinkin laws

Just have the Canadian and Mexican armies go house to house and confiscate them.

[bowens43]

9. if they had not been able to get the guns or the ammunition

these shootings would not have happened. This is a very strong argument for a total nationwide ban on hand guns and all ammunition. Even in the case of hunting, all ammo should be strictly regulated and only available in limited quantities during the hunting season. All ammo not used should be returned when the season ends.

[AH1Apache]

14. So are you willing to help with confiscation?

Or are you just another keyboard kommando who just bitches and moans but does nothing?
Teh stupid, it hurts.

[Meiko]

17. How about

The 10's of thousands who load their own ammo?

[rrneck]

25. Weeeeere off to see the wizard... nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

33. or...

...maybe he IS THE WIZARD!

[gejohnston]

31. works in Russia

but their murder rate is still 6 times ours. Jamaica Did basically what you propose they still make Russia look like Singapore.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

32. How are things in Oz?

Give my regards to the wizard.

[Callisto32]

34. So you want a bunch of piss-poor shots out there during hunting season.

Along with a ban on comparatively ancient technology.

That's completely reasonable!

[oneshooter]

38. And how do you propose to do this?

[ileus]

11. Sounds like Chicago needs a gun ban.

[movonne]

18. Define gun control...do you think that no

gun control is o.k.???? do you think there should be some gun control?? explain what gun control means...

[AH1Apache]

19. There are 30,000+ gun laws on the books now

how many more do you want? How about those existing laws start getting enforce first before we even think about any new laws.
I'm fine with what we already have as long as it doesn't infringe on the law abiding citizens.

[madrchsod]

20. it is called gang wars and it`s happening in chicago

it`s also happening in no gun control near suburbs and 100 miles away from the city.

i noticed a problem with those who think because chicago restricts gun possession the crime rate is soaring. maybe more cops on the streets,crack down on the gangs and their wars over street corners,and finding jobs would be a better solution than arming every citizen in chicago.

[burf]

39. Maybe the elected officials don't want

the gangs to go outta business.

Gangs and Politicians in Chicago: An Unholy Alliance

LAWBREAKERS, LAWMAKERS: In some parts of Chicago, violent street gangs and pols quietly trade money and favors for mutual gain. The thugs flourish, the elected officials thrive—and you lose.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2012/Gangs-and-Politicians-An-Unholy-Alliance/index.php?cparticle=1&siarticle=0

[saras]

24. Stupid inappropriate dishonest headline. If Chicago were gun free, they COULDN'T have been shot.

[shadowrider]

26. There is a complete ban on guns in Chicago in case you haven't noticed

However, that only applies to the law abiding. The bad guys have all the guns they want.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

47. Law abiding?

If they own a gun, they are not law abiding.

What's your problem with those who obey the law?

[shadowrider]

50. Law abiding = those who do not have weapons because it's against the law

and they obey the law, thus, law-abiding.

Can you show me where I said I have a problem with them?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

52. Circular Logic

The law applies to EVERYONE.